[4e] Tiefling Question

[Blackdrop]

I was going to post the in FAQ, but this probably going to be a little deeper then that.
My question:

When you mark a target that is the target of you Infernal Wrath, Lingering Wrath feat (MP, PG 138) allows you to apply all your bonuses from your Infernal Wrath until the target is no longer marked by you.

Do these bonuses include the additional goodies from feats (Ferocious Rebuke and Fiery Rebuke)?

If so, then the Tiefling is quite possibly one the best races for Fighters in the game.

Why?

Lets assume you have a level 30 Tiefling Fighter/Polearm Master/Demigod with a Strength of 28, a Wisdom of 20 and you wield a +6 Greatspear with Weapon Focus, Marked Scourge, Polearm Momentum, Spear Push, Lingering Wrath, Ferocious Rebuke and Fiery Rebuke.

That means that you have basic melee attack that does:

1d10+19=6 (Enhancement Bonus)+9 (Ability Bonus)+3 (Feat Bonus)

Pretty decent, right?

Against a Marked Enemy: 1d10+23=6 (Enhancement Bonus)+9 (Ability Bonus)+3 (Feat Bonus)+5 (Marked Scourge)


Here comes the kicker; Fiery Rebuke adds 5+1/2 your level fire damage to your target of Infernal Wrath.

So that cranks your damage up to:

1d10+43=6 (Enhancement Bonus)+9 (Ability Bonus)+3 (Feat Bonus)+5 (Marked Scourge+20 (Infernal Wrath)

Which is pretty good for a single hit. But against a boss for the whole encounter? It's insane!

It's worse if you have the Polearm Master Paragon Path. The Ferocious Rebuke feat working in conjunction with the Paragon Feature Forceful Reach and the feats Spear Push and Polearm Momentum allow you to knock the target for three squares and knock them on their ass.

What do you all think?

[Blackfang108]

I was going to post the in FAQ, but this probably going to be a little deeper then that.
My question:

When you mark a target that is the target of you Infernal Wrath, Lingering Wrath feat (MP, PG 138) allows you to apply all your bonuses from your Infernal Wrath until the target is no longer marked by you.

Do these bonuses include the additional goodies from feats (Ferocious Rebuke and Fiery Rebuke)?

If so, then the Tiefling is quite possibly one the best races for Fighters in the game.

Why?

Lets assume you have a level 30 Tiefling Fighter/Polearm Master/Demigod with a Strength of 28, a Wisdom of 20 and you wield a +6 Greatspear with Weapon Focus, Marked Scourge, Polearm Momentum, Spear Push, Lingering Wrath, Ferocious Rebuke and Fiery Rebuke.

That means that you have basic melee attack that does:

1d10+19=6 (Enhancement Bonus)+9 (Ability Bonus)+3 (Feat Bonus)

Pretty decent, right?

Against a Marked Enemy: 1d10+23=6 (Enhancement Bonus)+9 (Ability Bonus)+3 (Feat Bonus)+5 (Marked Scourge)


Here comes the kicker; Fiery Rebuke adds 5+1/2 your level fire damage to your target of Infernal Wrath.

So that cranks your damage up to:

1d10+43=6 (Enhancement Bonus)+9 (Ability Bonus)+3 (Feat Bonus)+5 (Marked Scourge+20 (Infernal Wrath)

Which is pretty good for a single hit. But against a boss for the whole encounter? It's insane!

It's worse if you have the Polearm Master Paragon Path. The Ferocious Rebuke feat working in conjunction with the Paragon Feature Forceful Reach and the feats Spear Push and Polearm Momentum allow you to knock the target for three squares and knock them on their ass.

What do you all think?

You're misreading.

Lingering Wrath specifically states "bonuses from your Infernal Wrath."

Ergo, bonuses from other powers do not have the same stickiness.

[Kurald Galain]

If so, then the Tiefling is quite possibly one the best races for Fighters in the game.

Er, no. (1) most games don't play at level 30, (2) being a good fighter is not the same as doing a lot of damage, and (3) I've seen third-level characters do around 50 damage, so I find that extremely unimpressive for level 30.

Compare this to, say, a Tempus Paladin, brutal scoundrel rogue, or blood mage, all of which do substantially more damage at substantially lower levels.

Polearm Momentum is a good trick, but combos easily with Footwork Lure starting from level 1, and does not require being a tiefling. So "better" races for fighters probably include dragonborn (breath mass-marking ftw), elves (reroll) and dwarves (minor-action healing).

[Blackdrop]

@Blackfang: But all of those aren't powers, they're feats that add onto Infernal Wrath


@ Kurald:
1)I was using 30 for when everything should be maxed out. I could have used 10, 12, or 21, but I chose not too. 2) And yet they're fighter builds are designed around doing damage 3) 50 for a base attack? Show me.

A tempus paladin can force a crit once per encounter, Brutal Scoundrel rogue is a striker and better be doing more damage then a fighter on a regular basis, and Blood Mages are...well, blood mages so there really isn't any comeback for them.

I stumbled upon this when trying to find away to create an Tiefling Fighter build that was competitive . This was my end result. Fred is as (and occasionally, more) accurate then a Dragonborn with a similar build.

Tiefling To-Hit: 15 (1/2)+6(Ench)+9(Str)+3(Prof)+1(Feat)=34
Dragonborn To Hit: 15 (1/2)+6(Ench)+9(Str)+3(Prof)=34

Infernal Wrath add another +1, meaning that a Tiefling can actually hit more often then the Fighter-all-mighty, and do more damage then he can.

[Kurald Galain]

2) And yet fighter builds are designed around doing damage

No, because the fighter is a defender, not a striker.

3) 50 for a base attack? Show me

Okay. RROT + high-crit brutal weapon + any attack. Barbarian with rage strike. Or, say, twin-striking ranger with damage-boosting items and the Frost trick.

Sorry, but 1d10+43 damage at level 30 isn't "insane" by any stretch of the word.

Infernal Wrath add another +1, meaning that a Tiefling can actually hit more often then the Fighter-all-mighty, and do more damage then he can.

Except for any race that has a bonus to strength :)

[NecroRebel]

The damage isn't all that important for a Fighter at that level, as the party strikers will be dealing more and you should be focused more on keeping enemies off of them.

The "knockdown of marked targets on hit" also isn't all that impressive, as a Dwarf with a halberd, Knockback Swing, Polearm Gamble, Polearm Master PP, and Polearm Momentum knocks down anything it takes an opportunity attack against, hit or miss. This is possible as early as level 21, which is when Knockback Swing becomes available.

To be honest, an Elf pulls off a similar trick a bit better as well, as they have the stat bonuses to pull of a Glaive Master more easily. Simply carry a glaive, take Heavy Blade Opportunity, Polearm Gamble, Polarm Momentum, and the Footwork Lure power, and with some clever positioning you can knock down on OAs as early as level 11. Then, at level 21, you take Mobile Warrior and it becomes easier as you can shift farther.



In short, it's a neat trick, but the important bits other races manage better, and you still have to build a Fighter with a race that gets no relevant stat boosts. Further, since it's questionable whether you get the peripheral bonuses from Infernal Wrath-based feats on Lingering Wrath, it might not even work at all.

[Blackdrop]

Those aren't base attacks though, Kurald, not the proof I asked for.

I, repeat, lvl 30 is an example I picked. This build is playable at a much earlier level.

[NecroRebel]

Those aren't base attacks though, Kurald, not the proof I asked for.

I, repeat, lvl 30 is an example I picked. This build is playable at a much earlier level.

Basic attacks aren't really very good to compare, as you won't be using them very often. Further, since they tend to deal the same damage as an at-will, you can compare them to those easily enough as well.

Regardless: Artful Dodger Rogue 11, basic ranged attack with combat advantage, using a +3 dagger: +21 to hit (+6 Dex, +5 levels, +3 prof, +1 rogue, +3 enhancement, +1 Nimble Blade, +2 CA), deals 1d4+9+3d8 damage (Dagger +6 Dex +3 enhancement + sneak attack w/Backstabber), for an average of 25. Yours does +34 to-hit, 48.5 average against a single marked target per encounter - remember, you're using an encounter power to pull this off! The same Rogue, at level 30, would have at least +37 to hit (+10 extra levels, +3 extra enhancement, +3 extra Dex) and would deal 2d4+15+5d8, or 42.5 average. Somewhat less, but works against anything, not just a particular marked target, doesn't require questionable readings of the rules, and requires no investment of encounter powers to do. Further, in a "real" build the same character would probably be using Sly Flourish for +Cha to damage, which might be up to +9 more. You can also add another +2 damage and +1 to hit if the character became a Demigod and put their extra stat boosts in Dex and Cha, which I didn't assume.

Earlier, I gave 2 basic skeleton Fighter builds that are playable from level 1 (with power breaks at 21 and 11, respectively) that do what yours is trying to do more efficiently. Also, here's a build that is at 30 that autoknockdowns on all OAs. Playability is not difficult to manage in 4E.

[Blackdrop]

Basic attacks aren't really very good to compare, as you won't be using them very often. Further, since they tend to deal the same damage as an at-will, you can compare them to those easily enough as well.

Regardless: Artful Dodger Rogue 11, basic ranged attack with combat advantage, using a +3 dagger: +21 to hit (+6 Dex, +5 levels, +3 prof, +1 rogue, +3 enhancement, +1 Nimble Blade, +2 CA), deals 1d4+9+3d8 damage (Dagger +6 Dex +3 enhancement + sneak attack w/Backstabber), for an average of 25. Yours does +34 to-hit, 48.5 average against a single marked target per encounter - remember, you're using an encounter power to pull this off! The same Rogue, at level 30, would have at least +37 to hit (+10 extra levels, +3 extra enhancement, +3 extra Dex) and would deal 2d4+15+5d8, or 42.5 average. Somewhat less, but works against anything, not just a particular marked target, doesn't require questionable readings of the rules, and requires no investment of encounter powers to do. Further, in a "real" build the same character would probably be using Sly Flourish for +Cha to damage, which might be up to +9 more. You can also add another +2 damage and +1 to hit if the character became a Demigod and put their extra stat boosts in Dex and Cha, which I didn't assume.

Earlier, I gave 2 basic skeleton Fighter builds that are playable from level 1 (with power breaks at 21 and 11, respectively) that do what yours is trying to do more efficiently. Also, here's a build that is at 30 that autoknockdowns on all OAs. Playability is not difficult to manage in 4E.

Excellent points. I'm not very good with number crunching and less with strikers in general.

Question though. Assuming that you can use all of the bonuses from feats, Against a single, marked foe, a boss fight, for a whole encounter, how effective would this be?

[NecroRebel]

Question though. Assuming that you can use all of the bonuses from feats, Against a single, marked foe, a boss fight, for a whole encounter, how effective would this be?

It would be quite powerful. You'd be dealing as much damage as a weak striker, have decent to good to-hit, decent battlefield control with your knockback on hit, and the durability of a Fighter. Against a boss, you could probably manage to trigger Infernal Wrath early in the fight, so you can effectively count on having the bonus the whole time. Unless you miss, of course, so have a Taclord around to Lead the Attack (that power is worth keeping well after level 1! As in, to 30, and beyond!)

Of course, I did some checking... The wording of Fiery and Forceful Rebuke is such that they give a bonus when you use the Infernal Wrath power, which means that they absolutely do not linger via Lingering Wrath.

[Blackdrop]

Well, this sucks. I suppose I'll keep trying.

Out of curiosity, where did you check?

[NecroRebel]

Out of curiosity, where did you check?

Player's Handbook, pages 195 and 203. On both pages, it specifically says "When you use your infernal wrath power and hit with an attack" on the subject of both feats, while on Martial Power page 127 it specifically says "When you use the infernal wrath racial power against an enemy marked by you, you gain the bonuses from infernal wrath against that enemy." All three powers trigger when you use the infernal wrath power (though the former 2 also require you to hit). Ferocious Rebuke causes 1 push on hit in that case, Fiery Rebuke causes 5+1/2level Fire damage on hit in that case, and Lingering Wrath gives +1 power bonus to attack and +Cha unnamed bonus to damage until the target is no longer marked in that case. Entirely different sets of bonuses all around.