Finally the four words! (spoiler)

[kusje]

What. Inconsistencies?
#331: Oracle says "Event A will happen, followed by Event B."
#634: Event A happens, followed by Event B.
He didn't say immediately, in a vacuum, or any of the other qualifiers your argument would need to make sense.

#331: Oracle says "Event A will be the cause of Event B."
#634: Event X happens, followed by Event B.

Ergo X=A? Doesn't seem right to me.

[Da Luniz]

6 pages of posts, so I dont know if someone said this already

I think the 4 words were in #631

the 4th frame

"I cannot fail again!"

It fully shows his/her mindset at that point

and probly will fuel V to hold onto that power at all costs to at first, right things she/he feels is wrong, but eventually become some authoriarian "I rule you because you cant care for yourselves" dictator

[Selene]

As B is trying to say, it is largely an issue of semantics. The oracle didn't say "he would say four words, then he would get ultimate power". The oracle said he would get ultimate arcane power BY saying the right blah blah blah when V asked him HOW he would get the power.

You know, believe it or not, I can actually read. I don't need an interpreter. Thanks anyway, though.

"I... I must succeed" could well be the four words but only through poor writing and phrasing on the author's part. Also, there is no need to be rude just because we don't agree. Asking if we are also part of the "belkar is neutral" club is just asking for a fight.

Who's rude??!! Dictionary quote, as if I don't know what a three letter word means much? That's pretty damned asstastic. Btw, show me what exactly I said that was rude. I want to see the quote. And for that matter, you wanna show me where I said anything about Belkar, Mr. Unwarranted Condescension?

Actually, this is starting to make me dislike a lot of the mood around here. It IS a lot like high school.

I mean, you want to see the strip and say: aha! Four words! We're done here!

...and that is completely fine. We're joining you. We have popcorn.

But the behavior demonstrated in this thread by many of you who DO believe that it's happened -- all you're doing is giving each other slaps on the back and high fives for sharing the only obvious correct opinion here.

Yeah, because the guy quoting the dictionary at me is wicked polite! As was your name calling directed at Optimystik. Whatever.

I guess what I don't understand about the semantics argument is that the english language isn't cut and dried like that. If I ask my brother 'How did you get to the airport?' and he responds with 'I called Jen', I know that the call did not magically transport him to the airport. I know that he called Jen and asked for a ride, she came and picked him up and the car physically got him to the airport. But we accept his answer because it makes sense in the context of the question and the event. Therefore to me 'I... I must succeed' makes sense in the context of the question (4 words) and the event (four words leads to touching orb which leads to ultimate arcane power).

Just my thoughts :)

Yes. That.

Now with all of that being said, I would point out that it ain't exactly Rich's fault if people blew up the whole Four Word Prophecy into something huge. If one was expecting either the Four Words to be something mind blowing and/or the Ultimate Power to be something on the scale of Pun Pun... Well, since the comic hadn't revisited the point since the Oracle was actually seen, isn't kinda the fault of people that built it up in their minds?

Also that.

There are a lot of people claiming the reasons are the wrong reasons, but ignoring the fact that their logic would also mean that the words are the wrong words; there are a couple people claiming the words are the right words, but ignoring the fact that their logic makes the reasons the right reasons as well.

You realize that doesn't even make any sense, right? If I say I love you, it might be the right thing to say at a given moment, especially if you just said you love me. But if I say it not because I actually do love you, but because I want to get laid, would you say those are the right words for the wrong reasons? Because that's pretty darned analogous to what we have here.

At the risk of repeating about 50 other people... V doesn't accept the power saying, as he did at first, "I must sacrifice myself to save my children, because there is no other way." He accepts the power, realizing that it's not the only way, because he doesn't trust others to help him, and because he doesn't want to admit that his magic is not all powerful. "Oh, yeah? It is now!" His tiny monologue was to convince himself to go through with it.

Right words. (V's version of "I think I can, I think I can.")
Right time. (Time was running out, and the offer was on the table.)
Right person. (He was the only one who could make the decision to accept it.)
Wrong reasons. (How's my aim now, bitch?!)

That's just how I see it. If, at some point in the future, V says four more words and gets even more-ultimate, unprecedented power, I'll say "Oh, gee. I sure was wrong. This is much ultimater than the other ultimateness." K?

[Da Luniz]

on the power aspect

at epic level, your practically a near divine being if I know my D&D well enough

and V got 3 epic lvl casters in him/her at the moment

thats got to be demi-god level minium

I dont think he's getting much higher without Ao or Burlew popping in saying
"Hey, I got a thing i need to deal with for a a day or so, you get to stand in for me, your free to the fridge and no wild parties, universe can stay awake till Ragnorok, no later, dont wait up!!"

[Godskook]

I'd like to chime in for the not-buying-it-yet camp. Why?

a)The semantics - sure, if the Giant ever admits that this is the prophesied time, it fits closely enough, but until we get blatant admission from somewhere credible(giant, the oracle, etc), the wording and timing aren't exactly what was conjured up by the foreshadowing. And yeah, I'm aware that stuff like that happens with some things we're sure have been revealed in stories.

b)the power isn't what V asked for - he asked for:
- complete
- total
- ultimate
and
- when I will achieve it

to me, using 3 qualifiers like complete/total/ultimate says to me that once V attains this power, there won't be limits on it. How many limits are there on this splice?

The power isn't his, its 'borrowed'. Only Burlew knows what kinds of things can cancel a soul splice prematurely, but the existance of such things as a means to seperate V from this 'power' turns a big neon sign in my head that says the 'power' doesn't belong to V.

It requires work, just to maintain access. Wizardry and Sorcery have no such restriction.

Can't use Wish. Thats a big one too. D&D wiki calls Wish "the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast". Huh, complete and total ultimate power
doesn't come with a wish spell? WTF?

He isn't in complete control of the gestalt. The other spellcasters, at the very least, have influence on him, as is shown in the latest comic.

It has an expiration date. Sure, we don't know what it is yet, but everyone knows that this isn't permenant.

V hasn't achieved anything. He's just 'cribbing' off of other mages' work.

Are any of these things enough to say V's prophecy is definitely yet to come: No. They're just enough to say that all we can do is sit back and wait for more info before making explicit statements either way.

[Kish]

a)The semantics - sure, if the Giant ever admits that this is the prophesied time, it fits closely enough, but until we get blatant admission from somewhere credible(giant, the oracle, etc), the wording and timing aren't exactly what was conjured up by the foreshadowing.

Errmmm...it sounds like you're speaking for everyone there. And you shouldn't be.

Can't use Wish.

No, can't duplicate any divine spell, even with Wish. There's a difference.

[B. Dandelion]

Yeah, because the guy quoting the dictionary at me is wicked polite! As was your name calling directed at Optimystik. Whatever.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Who said anything about being polite? What do you think I'm saying here, "oh gosh, why can't everyone just get along?" Pass.

The problem I had with what you (among others) were doing is that it's a passive-aggressive way to promote a shared value. It's calculated to foster a sense of inclusion with those who agree with you, and exclude others, but offers no opportunity for the people who share the opposite view to defend themselves for it or offer rational logic.

When I say high school... I bring it up because that's one place where that behavior turns up a lot, sometimes viciously. When I say that some people wind up having adapted to it, internalizing it and using it elsewhere, I don't exactly mean to be insulting. I just want to point to specific things and say you know that's not necessary here.

[Dairun Cates]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Who said anything about being polite? What do you think I'm saying here, "oh gosh, why can't everyone just get along?" Pass.

Uh... My memory's a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure "being polite" in a discussion or debate is explicitly listed in one of the forum rules. It isn't exactly impossible either. You can disagree without deciding that the other side is your dreaded enemy or resorting to insults.

Honestly, regardless of how you feel, I'd back off of it anyway. Mud-slinging and name-calling may work in high school debate and politics, but it usually just makes people eager to not listen to you in real life.

But yeah. No reason to get violent over this. It's just a comic. The way you're treating it, you're acting like you'd be justified to actually hit someone in the face over this. Does that seem right to you?

[B. Dandelion]

Uh... My memory's a bit rusty, but I'm pretty sure "being polite" in a discussion or debate is explicitly listed in one of the forum rules. It isn't exactly impossible either. You can disagree without deciding that the other side is your dreaded enemy or resorting to insults.

Strong breeze in here or what? I could have sworn I just heard a WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

Honestly, regardless of how you feel, I'd back off of it anyway. Mud-slinging and name-calling may work in high school debate and politics, but it usually just makes people eager to not listen to you in real life.

But yeah. No reason to get violent over this. It's just a comic. The way you're treating it, you're acting like you'd be justified to actually hit someone in the face over this. Does that seem right to you?

What I'm saying is that I'm not calling her out on a lack of polite manners because she speaks her mind. That would be hypocritical on my part. I'm not encouraging her to be mean or insulting. I'm saying I disagree with what she's doing -- not because it's "impolite" or "unrefined" or anything -- but because it's not giving people a fair shake at getting their own ideas across. In my world, that's actually a lot "ruder" than calling someone a goober or whatever.

If I actually sound that upset, I'll try to tone it down. I'm having a good time, generally, and I like most of the people here. Sometimes I have a hard time getting that across accurately.

Oh, and that bit in my sig about teasing applies to you here , since there's nothing wrong with wanting to keep the tone polite. But you misunderstood my intentions a bit.

[Nekomata]

I don't think these were 4 words.

If it was meant to be fullfillment of the prophecy, the IFCC would ask "So, how about it? We're ready when you are."
And V would utter: "I accept your terms."

The orbs only serve to confuse the matter. There are about 3 options:
1) This isn't the fulfillment, and the orbs are there to make it "obvius" that it's not.
2) It is the fulfillment, and Rich fumbled the resolution of a major plotline for the sake of a joke.
3) It is the fulfillment, and Rich added the orbs to mess with the readers.

About 1, there is a precedent, remember the "goat turns" prophecy, that was supposedly fulfilled?
I think we'll all agree that 2 is flat out.
I'd like to think he's not the kind of man to pull 3... then again, he is petty enough to make V's gender "secret" just because people asked him about it...

But the behavior demonstrated in this thread by many of you who DO believe that it's happened -- all you're doing is giving each other slaps on the back and high fives for sharing the only obvious correct opinion here.

I suggest we form the second camp, for people who think these were not the 4 words. We can give ourselves pats on the back too, and laugh at the people who fell for the obvious decoy.

And once the real 4 words are revealed... then we can make a party and celebrate all day and night.

I registered just so I'm entitled to enter the said party.

[Kaytara]

Incidentally, the extra effort made to ensure that it technically fits the prophecy - what with the limitation of Wish to only arcane spells and all - is what makes it seem so fishy. Like Rich had written this scene having completely forgotten about the prophecy, and five minutes before posting it online looked back on it and decided to adjust it a bit so that it would fit as the prophecy's fulfilment. I think that's the problem. It feels artificial.

In your opinion.

Actually, no. I said that the phrasing of the prophecy created an expectation that this comic fails to deliver on in certain aspects. That is somewhat closer to fact than mere opinion, because we have the reactions of multiple forumites as proof. Many felt cheated, disappointed and doubtful, thinking it anticlimactic. Thus, the fulfilment of the prophecy did not match their expectations.

Anyway, may I suggest, rather than, "the prophecy implied..." that perhaps, "the forumites inferred..." ?

But what would the difference be? There are, of course, people who come up with wild "theories" whose only merit is that nothing in the comic directly disproves them, but for the most part the forumites infer only that which they feel has been implied. It's that the implications of the prophecy don't match the fulfilment that's the crux of the matter. But if we assume that implications don't matter, as Optimystik does, why did the Giant phrase the prophecy with such vivid (and ultimately misleading) implications in the first place? He could easily have come up with something that would've been more fitting for this scene while still being dramatic, poignant and obscure.

Now with all of that being said, I would point out that it ain't exactly Rich's fault if people blew up the whole Four Word Prophecy into something huge. If one was expecting either the Four Words to be something mind blowing and/or the Ultimate Power to be something on the scale of Pun Pun... Well, since the comic hadn't revisited the point since the Oracle was actually seen, isn't kinda the fault of people that built it up in their minds?

I'll have to disagree.
"If one was expecting the four words to be mind blowing"? The wording used was "complete and total ultimate arcane power", phrased so by the character whose ultimate goal in life, the very purpose of their existence and one of their most defining traits, is the quest for power. I find it difficult to believe that Rich was unaware of the mental image such a phrasing would conjure up. as well as the implied significance. Something like this sounded like it would be BIG, both for the story and for one of the main characters. Rich couldn't have expected us NOT to go wild with speculations.

While I can accept this having really been the four words, I prefer to think that the scene was merely there to give V a taste of UAP and that the real thing will only come much later, at the very end of the story and as the ultimate culmination of V's character development, where it can be released with the appropriate awesomeness and meaningfulness without the inhibitions of not being allowed to break the story.

[Kish]

The orbs only serve to confuse the matter. There are about 3 options:

Hold it right there.

1) This isn't the fulfillment, and the orbs are there to make it "obvius" that it's not.
2) It is the fulfillment, and Rich fumbled the resolution of a major plotline for the sake of a joke.
3) It is the fulfillment, and Rich added the orbs to mess with the readers.

4) It is the fulfillment, and there was essentially no way for Rich not to have some people think it's not, without breaking the fourth wall in a way that would detract from the impact of the strip for those of his readers whose primary interest isn't "is this the prophecy coming true, or isn't it?" which he chose not to do.

Some people on the forum don't believe those were the four words. That's fine. This post of yours implies, if not says flat out, that the people who don't believe they were represent Rich's meaningful audience and the people who think they were the four words are a meaningless statistical anomaly, and that's not fine.

[BillyJimBoBob]

The point at issue isn't whether or not the Oracle is factually correct when he draws connections, however tenuous, between Belkar's actions and the fates of the characters potentially involved in his prophecy. The dispute lies in whether those should count toward the prophecy's fulfillment, given that they were all indirect causes of the final outcome.

I always felt that the scene between Belkar and the Oracle was like this:

The Oracle knows that he's going to be killed by Belkar. He's arranged in advance for his resurrection, after all. But when it comes right down to it, no one likes to die. It's like approach avoidance, the closer the unpleasant event comes, the greater the desire to try to avoid it. So he offers up some plausible but sketchy scenarios which offer up some vaguely possible way to satisfy Belkar's prophesy. He knows full well that it's pointless, and that he's going to be killed, but it's just a natural thing to try and to hope to put off or avoid being stabbed in the chest and killed.

[kusje]

4) It is the fulfillment, and there was essentially no way for Rich not to have some people think it's not,

I'll take the deal.

[B. Dandelion]

I suggest we form the second camp, for people who think these were not the 4 words. We can give ourselves pats on the back too, and laugh at the people who fell for the obvious decoy.

And once the real 4 words are revealed... then we can make a party and celebrate all day and night.

I registered just so I'm entitled to enter the said party.

Oh, way to blow our cover, newbie! Did you give out the secret handshake too?!

To think I had the reservations booked already...

I'd be lying if I said I didn't still hold out some hope for this eventual scenario. I think Warren nailed my feelings on the matter down exactly -- we can see how it makes sense either way, and we'd prefer for V's ascension here to not to be the resolution because it requires a somewhat sloppy setup and execution.

But I understand why Kish and others find it unlikely behavior from the Giant -- that he's just never been that convoluted before, and has been surprised in the past that people hold out over minor details he would have assumed were self-evident.

So, no need to gloat. Just grant people the right to their opinions without assuming they require a flawed or illogical base.

I always felt that the scene between Belkar and the Oracle was like this:

The Oracle knows that he's going to be killed by Belkar. He's arranged in advance for his resurrection, after all. But when it comes right down to it, no one likes to die. It's like approach avoidance, the closer the unpleasant event comes, the greater the desire to try to avoid it. So he offers up some plausible but sketchy scenarios which offer up some vaguely possible way to satisfy Belkar's prophesy. He knows full well that it's pointless, and that he's going to be killed, but it's just a natural thing to try and to hope to put off or avoid being stabbed in the chest and killed.

Sounds good as far as the Oracle's reasoning goes. If we can count 4th-wall breaking ability as a talent (a talent the Oracle is just about unsurpassed in), I think he might have been showing off some to the Oracle fans in the audience, too.

"We're in the middle of a scene you don't remember in a narrated flashback framed by a flash-forward in a prequel book. There's no way in hell you're finding your way back here."

Tangentially, when that strip first came out, (before we realized the Curse had gone off) I was a little annoyed because I was afraid the entire thing had just been a way to deliver a Take That at the various convoluted theories going on here. I should have had more faith in the Giant, there was a lot more to it than that. Which is part of the reason I think the logic used may actually have been relevant to the plot, not just humor and development of the Oracle's character.

[Nekomata]

4) It is the fulfillment, and there was essentially no way for Rich not to have some people think it's not, without breaking the fourth wall in a way that would detract from the impact of the strip for those of his readers whose primary interest isn't "is this the prophecy coming true, or isn't it?" which he chose not to do.

Of course, he couldn't make it 100% unambiguous, but the thing is he didn't even try, quite the contrary.
Depending on the exact motivation your option 4 would either fall into my 2 (If he decided to just focus on the joke, and forgot/didn't care about the prophecy (why bother, if it can't be made clear anyways?)) or 3 (Unable to make it 100% clear, decides to make it more confusing.)

This post of yours implies, if not says flat out, that the people who don't believe they were represent Rich's meaningful audience and the people who think they were the four words are a meaningless statistical anomaly, and that's not fine.

Quite the contrary.

I do think that majority thinks these were the four words, and there is but a handful of people who think otherwise, about enough to form an elitist club and have a secret handshake.

[Cúchulainn]

And then the words would have been, "I have must succeed," for an overall effect of "huh?" I'm guessing you're picturing a different sentence...

This is really funny to me for some reason and whenever I see it I laugh, so I have to thank you for it.

I suggest we form the second camp, for people who think these were not the 4 words. We can give ourselves pats on the back too, and laugh at the people who fell for the obvious decoy.

And once the real 4 words are revealed... then we can make a party and celebrate all day and night.

I registered just so I'm entitled to enter the said party.

Welcome to the fray brother, I'll be on the opposition but I like your spirit, you can join us in our party if you're wrong.

If I actually sound that upset, I'll try to tone it down. I'm having a good time, generally, and I like most of the people here. Sometimes I have a hard time getting that across accurately.

Sometimes? When have you ever successfully communicated your pleasure at the topic and fine company? I honestly want to see what that would look like in an argument with you, but I haven't disagreed with you on anything yet.

[B. Dandelion]

Sometimes? When have you ever successfully communicated your pleasure at the topic and fine company?

Well, that was what I was trying to do with the crack about the handshake. But if it didn't come through, than it wasn't "successful," because that's a subjective interpretation.

It's also something that I try to communicate every single time I grant someone a point in their logic, even when I disagree with them. The reason I get so frustrated with certain people who shall remain nameless is that it never comes across as me trying to be polite -- it comes off as a weakness.

I honestly want to see what that would look like in an argument with you, but I haven't disagreed with you on anything yet.

I am genuinely unhappy to hear that. But if you don't even know what it would look like, are you sure you'd recognize it even if you did see it?

[pendell]

Hmm .. reviewing 434 and 435, it's pretty obvious that, as someone pointed out, the four word ship has sailed.

I offer one possible alternate fulfillment -- a few pages earlier when V says 'I cannot fail again' to the imp, resulting in the imp filling out the application, resulting in the current sequence of events.

The reason I, personally, don't believe those are The Four Words was becuase the reason V spoke them was a mixture of right reasons (doesn't want children to die) and wrong reasons (doesn't want to admit failure).

It was only in the previous comic strip --434 -- that the fiends categorically stripped V of every possible rationalization for hir actions and forced hir to either reject them or perform an unquestionably evil act for all the wrong reasons.

V chose the second.

Not to save hir children. To save hir own vanity. And, of course, to realize hir life goal of UAP. Pride and lust for power both, not a trace of compassion or desire to help others.

Those were 'all the wrong reasons'. 'I cannot fail again' was NOT all the wrong reasons. Therefore I conclude 'I ... I must succeed' were the infamous four words.

I have, however, been wrong before.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cúchulainn]

Well, that was what I was trying to do with the crack about the handshake. But if it didn't come through, than it wasn't "successful," because that's a subjective interpretation.

It's also something that I try to communicate every single time I grant someone a point in their logic, even when I disagree with them. The reason I get so frustrated with certain people who shall remain nameless is that it never comes across as me trying to be polite -- it comes off as a weakness.

That might be because the rest of your post is so aggressive they have to strike you where you're 'weak'? I was mostly joking though, I just find it annoying that you have to explain yourself every other post. Doesn't seem fair. Doesn't seem like something I should derail a thread over though either...

I am genuinely unhappy to hear that. But if you don't even know what it would look like, are you sure you'd recognize it even if you did see it?

Well, unlike some people here, I can spot the obvious as long as it has the sufficient amount of neon signs. Anyway chin up, it's 7AM here and I've been up since 2 with a full work day ahead of me, you don't get to be unhappy because of me, only for me.

[David Argall]

I don't think these were 4 words.

If it was meant to be fullfillment of the prophecy, the IFCC would ask "So, how about it? We're ready when you are."
And V would utter: "I accept your terms."

But that is effectively what happened. That other terms were used does not change this.

The orbs only serve to confuse the matter. There are about 3 options:
1) This isn't the fulfillment, and the orbs are there to make it "obvius" that it's not.
2) It is the fulfillment, and Rich fumbled the resolution of a major plotline for the sake of a joke.
3) It is the fulfillment, and Rich added the orbs to mess with the readers.

About 1, there is a precedent, remember the "goat turns" prophecy, that was supposedly fulfilled?

The “fulfillment” in #21 was label as wrong in the same strip, and again soon after. So no, it does not support any such idea about the 4 words.

I think we'll all agree that 2 is flat out.

Not at all. Our writer is mortal, and has fumbled a number of points, some of which he confesses to. In the current scene many feel V is reluctant to contact his master, but a couple of strips earlier, she proposed doing so. Back in #11, V is shown as being sickened by Unholy Blight, and thus of good alignment. Later our author tried to claim he had never shown V as good. The list goes on.
That our writer messed up is definitely an option that is on the table. In fact it is rather likely.

Our writer has been pretty honest with us, particularly about long term events. A false 4 words just does not fit that pattern. Nor does our writer reuse themes at all often. So again we can expect V will not get another chance to speak 4 words.
This was it.

[Kish]

Of course, he couldn't make it 100% unambiguous, but the thing is he didn't even try, quite the contrary.

But that's a matter of opinion. I look at the title and wonder how anyone could say he didn't go to every reasonable length to make it clear this is the prophecy's fulfillment. Nor has anyone proposed a way that would make it clearer without looking tortured. (The closest anyone's come is suggesting having Vaarsuvius speak to the three fiends instead of touching the blue orb, and as I pointed out when Surprise! suggested that, that would both lose the significance of Vaarsuvius speaking to himself/herself, and make an actual worse match with the words of the prophecy, as Vaarsuvius would then be speaking, not to a being, but to three beings.)

Actually, no. I said that the phrasing of the prophecy created an expectation that this comic fails to deliver on in certain aspects. That is somewhat closer to fact than mere opinion, because we have the reactions of multiple forumites as proof.

No, that makes it multiple people's opinions. For it to be a fact, you need either 1) for everyone to agree, or 2) for the people who don't agree to "not count" somehow.

[B. Dandelion]

Not at all. Our writer is mortal, and has fumbled a number of points, some of which he confesses to. In the current scene many feel V is reluctant to contact his master, but a couple of strips earlier, she proposed doing so. Back in #11, V is shown as being sickened by Unholy Blight, and thus of good alignment. Later our author tried to claim he had never shown V as good. The list goes on.
That our writer messed up is definitely an option that is on the table. In fact it is rather likely.

Can I just say, with regard to this: I'm pretty quick to give the Giant a pass for the discrepancies that show up in the Dorukan's Dungeon arc of the storyline. V and the Unholy Blight, some of the behaviors related to the goblin henchmen, the Monster in the Darkness specifically wanting to go out and kill the OOTS -- if it gets contradicted later on, explicitly or otherwise, I don't sweat it.

In No Cure, he puts into motion many plot points that have yet to play out entirely even now: the momma dragon, for one, who is directly alluded to but not seen. There's also the matter of Ian Starshine's imprisonment and V's marriage is revealed too. However, in the commentary the Giant mentions Miko as a regular recurring character, which... does not seem likely to happen, now.

The prophecy bits, though, are in the beginning of the War and XPs book which was supposedly (according to the commentary) the first plotted out with the larger storyline in mind.

Which doesn't prove it wasn't a mistake, of course. But if it were something sneaky it'd be more likely than if it had been introduced earlier on. And thus by extension more annoying to me if it was a goof-up.

[Warren Dew]

You realize that doesn't even make any sense, right? If I say I love you, it might be the right thing to say at a given moment, especially if you just said you love me. But if I say it not because I actually do love you, but because I want to get laid, would you say those are the right words for the wrong reasons? Because that's pretty darned analogous to what we have here.

I'm afraid it seems to me like it's your explanation here that doesn't make sense. You'd have to believe that Vaarsuvius does not actually care about saving the kids. I don't think even one person has actually stated that they think Vaarsuvius doesn't care at all about saving the kids, let alone 50 people stating that.

Now, you might argue that Vaarsuvius has other reasons in addition to wanting to save the kids. Unfortunately for that argument, the prophecy says not only "the wrong reasons", but "all the wrong reasons". If some of the reasons are right, and some of the reasons are wrong, it's again weak writing if a match is intended.

[kusje]

The closest anyone's come is suggesting having Vaarsuvius speak to the three fiends instead of touching the blue orb, and as I pointed out when Surprise! suggested that, that would both lose the significance of Vaarsuvius speaking to himself/herself, and make an actual worse match with the words of the prophecy, as Vaarsuvius would then be speaking, not to a being, but to three beings.)

That's not an acceptable argument for having such an unwieldy "fulfillment" to the prophecy. Rich didn't hear about the prophecy and then try to think of a scenario where it gets fulfilled; Rich wrote the prophecy.

[Optimystik]

"PKB," since you seem unfamiliar with the term, is shorthand for "Pot, Kettle, Black." Your hypocrisy is absolutely galling. I have bent over backwards to try and accommodate your POV. Several times, in this thread alone, you will see sections of my post that are dedicated to explaining why I understand the reasoning that is being used and why, although I follow it and respect the logic underneath it, I do not find it satisfactory to fully describe the scenario in question. You have never once extended me the same courtesy. You do not listen to me, you do not look at the definitions of the words I am using or what the context is, you shoot back your replies without trying to take in the big picture of what I'm trying to communicate with you, because all you are trying to do is "win," in every little thing. Which makes it impossible for either of us to gain anything from our correspondences -- you don't want to learn, and I grow tired very quickly of repeating myself. So, I think, it is best we cease.

I have listened to you. Your argument is that events took place during the fulfillment of the "4 words" prophecy that weren't described in said prophecy; as a result, the scene was weakened. Vaarsuvius' action of touching the orb muddied the causal relationship between saying the 4 words and receiving his power. Isn't that right?

My response is that prophecies are inclusive, not exclusive; they don't describe what won't happen, but what will. As long as the specific events mentioned by the Oracle came to pass, anything added to the scenes is spice or flavor; no more, no less. My point is simply this: everything happened as advertised, and so there's no concrete reason to find the scene lacking. If the four words disappointed you, that's fine, but disputing their accuracy is another matter entirely.

You also have a fondness for making assumptions about the education level, willingness to learn, and even thought processes of those you argue with. For future reference, ad hominems like these only detract from your argument and make others less likely to sympathize with your perspective. (The temper doesn't help much either.)

#331: Oracle says "Event A will be the cause of Event B."
#634: Event X happens, followed by Event B.

Ergo X=A? Doesn't seem right to me.

Allow me to explain. It's simply transitive logic.

Event A happens (the words), leading to Event X (touching the orb), leading to Event B (gaining the power.)

X happened because of A, B happened because of X. Therefore, B happened because of A.

He wouldn't have gained the power without touching the orbs. He wouldn't have touched the orbs without first talking himself into it. Therefore, he wouldn't have gained power without talking himself into it.

[TentsOnFire]

I absolutely hate to say this... but it is ambiguous. V's question to the Oracle was, "How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?" It seems like the limits on divine magic go against that somewhat.

However, the "Wrong Reasons" thing is really clear. Maybe the Giant just wants our heads to spin.

I do like the way this is headed, whether these are the four words that all signs seem to point to them being, or this is just a major-league fakeout by the Giant. Either way, it's really cool.

[Godskook]

Errmmm...it sounds like you're speaking for everyone there. And you shouldn't be.

Nope, I'm not.

No, can't duplicate any divine spell, even with Wish. There's a difference.

Very true, I missed that. However, it still stands that V's Wish is not as powerful as another Wizard's Wish(of equal effective caster level). Although weakened, the point still stands.

[kusje]

Allow me to explain. It's simply transitive logic.

Event A happens (the words), leading to Event X (touching the orb), leading to Event B (gaining the power.)

X happened because of A, B happened because of X. Therefore, B happened because of A.

He wouldn't have gained the power without touching the orbs. He wouldn't have touched the orbs without first talking himself into it. Therefore, he wouldn't have gained power without talking himself into it.

Aha. I see why we disagree then.

I do not believe that X happened because of A. He could have only said the words to show his intent to us (the readers); it is a stick comic after all.

In any case, how far can we go with this anyway? We can just as easily say that V gained power because his parents decided to have him.

[Nimrod's Son]

However, in the commentary the Giant mentions Miko as a regular recurring character, which... does not seem likely to happen, now.

I'd say it's already happened. She may have died sooner than a lot of people were expecting, but even so she's appeared in over 10% of all the strips so far, according to this thread, which is a pretty large figure for a relatively minor character.

In fact, if you discount the six main characters and the two major villains, then Nale and Hinjo are the only characters who have appeared more than Miko. Which is even more remarkable considering the length of time since she died.