Wanda will never get the pliars

[Kreistor]

Of course there is no literary sense in giving Wanda the Pliers. After all, this would create conflict in Stanley, as he tries to deal with his personal conviction that all the Arkentools should belong to himself, but the Pliers clearly belong to someone he respects and needs. Like, I'd see no sense at all in having Stanley go through the mental gynastics necessary to change his own mind about what the Titans want of himself. No use at all in him debating whether to demand the Pliers, risking losing to Ansom, or give up his selfishness in order to retain Gobwin Knob and his most powerful caster.

Nope, no literary sense whatsoever... no character development in the slightest.

[Tensu]

Ah, people claiming that a point they never made somehow proves everyone wrong...

if I had a dime for every time I've seen this, I'd be a very rich man.

that said, I don't know why everyone thinks the pliers are the croakamancy tool. "destroys the undead" seem to make it more anti-croakamancy than pro-coakamancy. also, "destroys the undead" is a pretty common power for holy artifacts to have. since croakamancy is a division of naughtymancy, we can assume that it's not held in the highest moral regard, and thus a holy artifact may have some sort of advantage against it.

[HandofShadows]

Ah, people claiming that a point they never made somehow proves everyone wrong...

Are you talking about someone on this thread or just rambleing about the internet in general?

[Kreistor]

I don't know why everyone thinks the pliers are the croakamancy tool.

Well, it's more than just that. Wanda tells Ansom that he cost her far more than she cost him, and Ansom looks sheepishly guilty. She's not lying.

Further, Wanda and Jack both were at Faq, and now work for stanley and against Ansom. Why would both work for the man that destroyed a utopian kingdom? Wanda has that bad girl vibe, sure, but Jack has no reason to work for Stanley. This places a certain amount of counterevidence against Stanley having destroyed Faw as Jillian believes.

If, instead, it was Ansom that attacked Faq, and Stanley only came in to mop up the weakened Jetstone victors, then we now have a reasonable explanation of why Wanda accuses Ansom of costing her so much. He destroyed Faq, lied to Jillian, and cost Wanda in a major way. He may have taken the pliers from her, further aggravating the situation. Wanda and Jack now have vengeance in mind when deciding to work for Stanley, explaining their allegience. It ties everything up in a neat little package, and makes it possible for Jillian to change sides in the future, because Ansom was the worm, not Stanley.

This is, though, only a theory with no evidence. The only way it works is because Jillian does not know for certani what happened to Faq, and Wanda has never enlightened her otherwise.

Just keep an open mind. There is much to learn and the history of the Pliers may be the history of Wanda and Ansom.

[Samb]

She will get the plirers because the OP's reasons that she not are stupid. Anyone who asks me to elaborate is stupid as well.

Flame on

[HandofShadows]

This is, though, only a theory with no evidence. The only way it works is because Jillian does not know for certani what happened to Faq, and Wanda has never enlightened her otherwise.

Nice to see that others like the same theory I do. :)

Wanda not telling Jillian never meant a lot of sense to me. Wanad would have every reason to tell Jillian if Ansom destroyed Faq. But what if Wanda DID tell Jillian? Stay with me a second here.
If Jillian knew that Ansom destoyed Faq, she would try to kill him as soon as she saw him. But it's not hard to figure that she probably would not be able to kill him before getting killed herself and she certainly would not be able to get away (with the Arkenpliers?). So in order to get at Ansom, his army is going to have to be mostly eliminated and the best way for a smaller army to destroy a bigger army is through better intelligence. Best way to get that is to have a spy in the enemy command structure, Jillian. Now Jillian would NOT be able to keep her cool when she sees Ansom so Wanda erased the knowledge that Ansom destroyed Faq from Jillians mind (with her permision). It could happen. :D

[Kreistor]

Now Jillian would NOT be able to keep her cool when she sees Ansom so Wanda erased the knowledge that Ansom destroyed Faq from Jillians mind (with her permision). It could happen. :D

what magic can do, magic can undo. Better to not tell her anything at all in the first place, so that if magic is used on Jillian, there is nothing to unerase. So, therfeore, don't tll her that Ansom destroyed Faq. Let hr get nice and close to the handsome commander, then break the bad news and watch the barbarian tear the RCC apart inside out.

With Jillian breaking the spell, Wanda did have the opportunity to enlighten her when Jaclyn was killed. Wanda was, however, mentally damaged at the time and may have flt the moment was not then. Wanda was saving scrolls... Wanda is thinking long term, beyond Stanley. She has plans to survive, which means leaving Jillina in place with Ansom may have proven a greater asset after RCC won. whomever she chose to work for next, it would be an enemy of Ansom and so the battle would continue.

Wanda, like the dead, is not hasty.

[Tensu]

@ Handofshadows: both: I've been to forums populated almost exclusively by people like the OP.

@ Kreistor: while that's all very interesting, I don't really see what t has to do with the Arkenpliers and their presumed association with croakamancy, or even necessarily why Wanda would want them. please explain.

I think there are two more likely theories as to what Ansom took from Wanda. the first is Jillian herself. Wanda was friends with Jillian, and Jillian's love for Ansom ruined that. the other is foreshadowing: we don't know what Ansom took, only that he took something. it will be explained in greater detail later.

as for Jack, he's a captured unit. He fights for Stanley because he has little choice in the matter. getting captured isn't a voluntary thing, and it was said casters are generally captured. And when a unit is captured it has low morale, which may explain Jack's insanity and half-***'d attempts at illusions.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Oh, and some very telling evidence that Wanda does want to get her hands on the Arkenpliers. After being "dismounted" by the archons Wanda was reaching out to touch the Arkenpliers. Now Wanda is DYING and she is trying to get to them.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0135.html

Panel 4.

Heh, and notice in panel 10 how Ansom goes from pointing the 'Pliers directly at Wanda to holding them across his body as far away from Wanda as he can get them.

There was much speculation after that strip as to what the "less than what you took from me" was about. Some said Jillian, but could it be that Wanda was referring to the Arcenpliers?

[Kreistor]

@ Kreistor: while that's all very interesting, I don't really see what t has to do with the Arkenpliers and their presumed association with croakamancy, or even necessarily why Wanda would want them. please explain.

I can't explain more than what is in the comic. I gave a possible reason: Wanda already knows for certain they are Croakamancy aligned.

I think there are two more likely theories as to what Ansom took from Wanda. the first is Jillian herself.

Wanda hasn't lost Jillian. Jillian does not hate Wanda, and was in fact trying to "free" Wanda the last time they encountered each other. As far as we know, Jillian still loves Wanda and vice versa.

But, your suggestion cannot in the end be true. Ansom cannot think that he cost Wanda Jillian. Why? Because he would have had to know about Wanda and Jillian as far back as her first capture, long before the strip began. Even now, Ansom only knows that one caster in GK was from Faq, not that it was Wanda nor that they were close. In fact, with Jillian now aware of Jack, he is more likely to know about him than Jillian's relationship with Wanda. If Ansom had known about Wanda and Jillian, then he was allowing a mole in his own organization, not using her for disinformation, and giving Stanley a shot at hurting the RCC.

Further, Wanda would have to be aware that Ansom knew about herself and Jillian. For their conversation to have occured with mutual understanding of what Ansom cost Wanda, both parties must be privy to the same knowledge. Their silence on details in the face of Jillian never revealing to Ansom that she had a relationship with Wanda and never telling Wanda that she had revealed that information, neither can know what the other may be thinking of.

I don't buy that.

as for Jack, he's a captured unit. He fights for Stanley because he has little choice in the matter. getting captured isn't a voluntary thing, and it was said casters are generally captured. And when a unit is captured it has low morale, which may explain Jack's insanity and half-***'d attempts at illusions.

There is no evidence of this. All evidence is that Jack acted independently without direct orders to save Stanley, when he could have performed poorly in order to be captured by Jillian, whom he knew would do right by him. Jack is doing his utmost to keep Stanley safe and alive. If you were right, Jack would have low loyalty and would act independently as little as possible to help Stanley, his slavemaster.

Further, I find it unlikely paranoid-megalomaniacal Stanley would keep a potential enemy close to him, and especially would not keep tha unit alone as his sole caster in a new home city. Stanley would only take one he trusted absolutely with him. He trusts Jack more than Wanda, and Wanda was his favorite until he lost 30 dwagons to Parson's oversight.

Again, I don't buy it.

[galdon]

I don't really see what t has to do with the Arkenpliers and their presumed association with croakamancy, or even necessarily why Wanda would want them. please explain.

I have my own idea on this, its already known that the arkentools awaken by attributes, stanley was a pikeman, well liked by his king, and has a strong sense of duty, even if he's an idiot, his traits caused the hammer to attune to him, giving him dominion over dwagons.

Charlie is intellegent, and very manipulative, a heavy thinker and strategist, and he 'happens' to have the arkendish which attuned to him and gave him thinkomancy powers.

now, Stanley discovered that when hitting nuts, the hammer occasionally had an accidental effect. (creating pigeons) this has absolutely nothing to do with anything. and certianly not an applied power.

This gives some inferences here, 1 being that the tools power is dormant until they come into contact with somebody that it matches. 2 being that not all of the power is under the control of the wielder.

what might happen is not that it is an undead destroying super force, but rather, it is being swung at high speed like a club or a sword, which then comes into contact with an uncroaked being, and this contact awakens it's power, in the middle of a swing, having a burst of power means becoming highly destructive. not knowing much of the story before this battle, we don't know how he got the pliers or how long he's had them, but also, if he's only used it on WANDA'S uncroaked, it might also be that they respond to her magical residue left in her creations.

the above is all theory though, and can easily not happen, just trying to say how the pliers could appear to harm uncroaked when it is not their true purpose.

[crzybggr]

It seems that we’re all using different assumptions here, so I’m going to take a moment to state what we know.

1. We have no idea what criteria determines whether or not a character will attune to an Arkentool.
2. The Arkenpliers are related in some way to uncroaked, either through Croakamancy or some other magic.
3. After being defeated by the Archons, Wanda reached out for the pliers like she desperately wanted them and soon after asked Ansom to touch her with them. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0135.html

That, as I see it, is all that we know for certain. If you have a convincing argument for anything else you deem important, please share. The more things we can put down as facts, the better.


Now back to the debate. The first thing we know is that we don’t know very much at all. Almost all of the things we know about the mechanics of Erfworld have been learned through the eyes of Parson. He obviously does not know everything there is to know about Erfworld, and there are some things he has learned that we as readers have not been shown yet.

Because of this, no assumptions can be made about how an Arkentool chooses its rightful wielder. It could be through skill, fate, or some other criteria that we don’t know about yet.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html
I interpret this comic as saying that the Arkentools are Fate aligned artifacts, which is further corroborated by the fact that of the Arkentools we know of, at least two and possibly all three have Fate-aligned effects: The Arkenhammer can turn nuts into pigeons (Changemancy), the Arkendish gives its owner “unprecedented control of Thinkamancy,” and the Arkenpliers destroy uncroaked on contact, which may or may not be Croakamancy-related.
From what I have seen, there is very little correlation between the skill of a person and whether an Arkentool attunes to them. All we know about Stanley was that he was a piker under Saline IV, became a warlord, found the Arkenhammer, and became the Overlord of Gobwin Knob. Nothing in Stanley’s career up to the point of gaining the Arkenhammer shows any propensity for taming Dwagons.

Charlie also was not necessarily chosen for his skills. Although he does think differently than other Erfworlders, he could just as easily have used the Arkendish to change how he thinks. Since it gives him amazing Thinkamancy powers, he could easily change how his own mind works in order to make himself a better tactician.

Because of our lack of knowledge, we can not assume that a person’s skill would determine whether or not they will be attuned to an Arkentool. We especially can’t make a prediction based on skill with the Pliers, as we aren’t even sure that those are Croakamancy related. Yes, destroying uncroaked could be Croakamancy, but it could just as easily be something else. It is probably more likely, seeing as how all the other known Arkentools have been related to Fate magic (Changemancy from the Arkenhammer, Thinkamancy from the Arkendish), but we can’t know for certain. The Croakamancy aspect of the Pliers might not even be its real purpose. Remember, the Arkenhammer has a Changamancy effect that is far less important than its true power: that of taming Dwagons. The Arkenpliers’ ability to turn uncroaked to dust does not mean that is its most important purpose; since Ansom is not attuned to the Pliers, the possibility that their true power is something completely different from what we were expecting is even more likely.


Moving on to Wanda and the Pliers with Ansom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0135.html): This situation could be seen in a number of ways. Wanda reaching out towards the Pliers could have several reasons, the two most likely of which are:
1. Wanda wanting to get the Pliers because she thought she would be attuned to them
2. Wanda wanting to get the Pliers because, even un-attuned, they are still an impressive weapon and she could have possibly used them to defend herself.
We can’t assume that Wanda was reaching out to the Pliers only because she thought she would be attuned to them. The same kind of argument can be applied to what happens immediately after this. Wanda is taunting Ansom to come down and touch her with the Pliers. This also could have several reasons. Either Wanda wants to touch the Pliers to see if she becomes attuned to them, or she wishes to die. Based on her fractured state of mind at the time, as well as her physical injuries, the latter is quite reasonable.

There has been no real evidence or interpretation of events that in my mind shows that Wanda is going to get the Arkenpliers. There is no reason why any of the other named characters couldn't pick up the Pliers and become attuned to them. Even Stanley, as stupid as he is, is capable of gaining them. This, in my opinion, would be far more interesting than having someone else get the Pliers, as the other characters - especially those in the Coalition - would start to think that Stanley was right about the Titans' divine plan. In short, there's not enough actual evidence to convince me that Wanda is going to get the Pliers.

[Tensu]

@ Kreistor:

1. but what makes you think they are croakamancy aligned? Wanda can use all schools of magic, croakamancy is just her favorite.

2. Why does Ansom ned to know what Wanda is talking about? his expression seemed to be a mixture of "what the **** are you talking about?" and " **** you're creepy". when I saw the look on Ansom's face, I assumed he didn't know what Wanda was talking about.

as for Jillian, keep in mind that Wanda's perspective may be very different from yours. Wanda freaked out when Jillian broke her spell with her love for Ansom, she clearly felt betrayed. I doubt it's important to her that Jillian still cares for her when compared to the fact that Jillian cares for Ansom more.

3. Jack's sudden improvment comes from Stanley's good treatment of him raising his morale. you'll notice Stanley does a lot of out-of-character sweet-talking to Jack before Jack's skills improve. as for why Stanley would hang around with a low morale unit, low morale units just fight at a disadvantage: they're still incapable of betraying their leader. (at least, I don't remember hearing otherwise)

of course, Jack's ramblings could be a side effect of thinkamancy feedback, like Wanda's stuttering and Misty's horrible death. even that however would not rule out a morale change.

@ Galdon: but if the undead-nuking is a minor discharge of it's power, then it would be more likely to be attuned to one of the more direct-damage oriented schools (one esp. effective against undead units?) than Croakamancy.

[HandofShadows]

1. Wanda wanting to get the Pliers because she thought she would be attuned to them
2. Wanda wanting to get the Pliers because, even un-attuned, they are still an impressive weapon and she could have possibly used them to defend herself.

You forgot 3. Wanda was trying to get to the Arkenpliers because she is already attuned to them.

as for Jack, he's a captured unit. He fights for Stanley because he has little choice in the matter. getting captured isn't a voluntary thing, and it was said casters are generally captured. And when a unit is captured it has low morale, which may explain Jack's insanity and half-***'d attempts at illusions.

I think you have missed a few things. Jack was nuts because of the spell he was a part of was broken (it killed another caster named Misty). His insanity was quite real. When he got shocked back to reality by Jillian he could have very easily turned, but did not, (captured units are supposed to have very low loyalty ratings and can turn very easily) in fact he went all out with highly effective foolomancy to save Stanely's skin. Jack is following Stanely very willingly, even if he is sad about it (he seems to be in love with Jilian amd hated to turn his back on her).

[HandofShadows]

There was much speculation after that strip as to what the "less than what you took from me" was about. Some said Jillian, but could it be that Wanda was referring to the Arcenpliers?

The Arkenpliers or Faq. With a real possibility of it being both Faq and the Arkenpliers.

[Titanium Dragon]

My main reason that Wanda won't attune to the pliers is pretty simple. Yes, the Arkenpliers react to uncroaked. However, they do this by killing the uncroaked. That doesn't seem at all like something Wanda would even want to use, and makes it much less likely that she would attune to them.

This seems like a reasonable explanation, but the problem is we do not know how things like this work in this world. In a world of sympathetic magic, the same thing may well be used to destroy as to create something. "You cannot kill what you did not create" and all that. Let's also remember that, while they give a bonus against undead, that isn't the only thing they do, necessarily. The Arkenhammer sometimes turns nuts into birds, and birds into nuts, but that isn't its primary function. Indeed, for all we know it is especially effective against birds. But its real power is to control dragons (and fly, apparently). The Arkenpliers are certainly similar.

Its not at all unreasonable for a more powerful effect based on an element to superscede weaker ones. Its pretty common for a water villain to either be least effective or most effective against the water using character; either they can overwhelm the other person's powers, and thus completely render them useless, or they have to fight for control with them.

Basically, something which destroys undead is most likely to either be undead-linked itself (thus manipulating the same thing which creates them) or opposing it.

And it is worth noting that Wanda was encouraging Ansom to touch her with the Arkenpliers, and he was scared of her. Its quite possible he's scared they wouldn't work on her. The whole exchange between the two was very strange, and it raised a lot more questions than it answered.

The reality is we don't know who will attune to the Arkenpliers, but Wanda is the only likely candidate at the moment, so its not unreasonable to assume she can attune them. If she cannot attune to them, then it is unlikely that anyone seen so far in the strip can; Stanley would be the next likelist, but is a distant candidate, I think, mostly because I don't think they'll actually validate the "Will of the Titans" thing with him.

As for the things Ansom took from her... it doesn't even have to be Faq. Remember, she's loyal to Stanley. What if what she's talking about is the rest of Stanley's empire? That's also reasonable, to some degree, though I don't think its terribly likely.

Its also possible what she's referring to is something we don't know about at all, yet.

I do agree, however, that the loyalty of the Faq units does call into question the "Stanley the Worm" interpretation of what happened to Faq. Indeed, Stanley's whole backstory is very unclear - he was off (probably in Faq) when the capital fell to the goblins backstabbing his side. The obvious interpretation is that Stanley orchestrated the events in order to gain power, and conquering Faq was an excuse to not be around for the betrayl. But on the other hand, when we look at Stanley, that's really not something he'd do. Stanley is not the planning sort, and that's beyond the sort of thing he'd think up, I think. He's for the obvious, and that really smacks of too much sophistication. Its from the point of view of those who hate Stanley, but when we consider his personality, from what we've seen of him, it doesn't really fit. While he's certainly a megalomaniac, I'm not sure that Stanley would really think to hide his betrayl that well, or is even capable of doing so.

I suspect we'll have a whole new view of Stanley once we understand what exactly happened in Faq and in Gobwin Knob that turn. Its very obviously important, and I'm pretty certain it is not the alliance's view of things.

[Kreistor]

1. but what makes you think they are croakamancy aligned? Wanda can use all schools of magic, croakamancy is just her favorite.

Not just her favorite: she only enjoys croakamancy. There's no school of magic that is anti-uncroaked.

2. Why does Ansom ned to know what Wanda is talking about? his expression seemed to be a mixture of "what the **** are you talking about?" and " **** you're creepy". when I saw the look on Ansom's face, I assumed he didn't know what Wanda was talking about.

If he didn't know, he would have said so. Her statement of previous loss stopped him cold. The look in 122.9 is guilt and sheepishness. His previous conviction of righteousness over thousands of dead Jetstone troops is annihilated. If he didn't know what she was talking about, he would still have his conviction, and he would not be confused about his own righteousness. He knows exactly what she is talking about, and he knows she is right. Whatever he cost her was greater than thousands of Jetstone troops lost to him.

as for Jillian, keep in mind that Wanda's perspective may be very different from yours. Wanda freaked out when Jillian broke her spell with her love for Ansom, she clearly felt betrayed. I doubt it's important to her that Jillian still cares for her when compared to the fact that Jillian cares for Ansom more.

Yes, Wanda feels betrayed, but Ansom does not know about that betrayal. Jillian was essentially a mole in his organization. It was vital to Wanda that Ansom never know about Jillian's spying, so when Jillian broke the spell, the only ones that knew about it were her and the Archons. Only Jaclyn ever broke ranks to give out information that was not paid for, and there is no evidence that she told Ansom. Further, for this conversation to work, Wanda must be aware that Ansom knows that Jillian breaking the spell hurt Wanda, and there's no way Jaclyn would tell Wanda that she told Ansom. It's possible that Ansom might know about Wanda, but it is impossible for Wanda to know that Ansom was aware.

And on top of that, Ansom would not be sheepish over Jillian breaking a mind control spell from a Croakamancer. He hates Croakamancy, considering it an abomination, so he would be proud that he was able to inspire Jillian to break the spell, and he would lord it over Wanda that he was her superior in Thinkamancy. He is, instead, sheepish as if he had done something that he regretted. Freeing Jillian from mind control would be a point of pride, not an embarrassment.

3. Jack's sudden improvment comes from Stanley's good treatment of him raising his morale. you'll notice Stanley does a lot of out-of-character sweet-talking to Jack before Jack's skills improve. as for why Stanley would hang around with a low morale unit, low morale units just fight at a disadvantage: they're still incapable of betraying their leader. (at least, I don't remember hearing otherwise)

Yeah, ten minutes of kindness causes people to forget years of enslavement. Not buying it.

of course, Jack's ramblings could be a side effect of thinkamancy feedback, like Wanda's stuttering and Misty's horrible death. even that however would not rule out a morale change.

Jack saving Stanley occurs after his mind is healed.

@ Galdon: but if the undead-nuking is a minor discharge of it's power, then it would be more likely to be attuned to one of the more direct-damage oriented schools (one esp. effective against undead units?) than Croakamancy.

I don't understand why you're picking at this. You're welcome to believe anything you want before or after the author says something. We know all of your points: nothing you're saying is new. We choose to believe this, regardless. You aren't going to change our minds. If you don't want to believe like us, then don't. Just don't think that your way is the right way, and you have to fight us to prove it. We'll believe the Arkenpliers are destined for Wanda until new evidence comes to light. We see her reaction, we have an unexplained statement, and we can see the pliers affect uncroaked. That's not conclusive, and I'll admit it, but there's no evidence that any other alignment is close to the evidence for Croakamancy. For us, this is enough, so we're placing our bets on the Croakamancy line. Bet against us if you like, but don't think you'll change our minds merely by pointign out that each individual piece of evidence has alternate explanations. When 10 pieces of evidence have 5 explanations each, but all 10 have a single explanation in common, it's the commonality that you need to look at first, since that can explain everything.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Yeah, ten minutes of kindness causes people to forget years of enslavement. Not buying it.

Jack saving Stanley occurs after his mind is healed.

Where did you pull "enslavement" from? There is no indication that Stanley has enslaved anyone. Stanley, while not a terribly sympathetic character and obviously a poor strategist, has shown over and over that he isn't a bad guy to work for, overall. He has poor people skills, yes. He can be pompous and overbearing, yes. But he is, after all, the leader of his faction. Leaders have a burden not shared by those who do not lead, and leaders have a need to give orders which they know will be obeyed.

Points for Stanley:

He realized that the summoning spell would compel obedience, but he specifically didn't want a "morale case", he wanted someone who wanted to be summoned. Someone who would like and enjoy the job he was going to be given.

He encourages his people to pursue their hobbies. Sizemore was allowed to study Hippymancy, and Wanda was allowed to "interrogate" Jillian. "The kid's got talent."

When he lost a huge pile of dwagons, his signature unit and the most potent forces remaining to him other than his leadership and caster cadre, he did become very upset. Most leaders would in this situation. And at the same time a strong unit (Jillian) he had personally ordered captured and was told would be working for him even if not directly was returned to the enemy, despite assurances that this was not a possible outcome. But even suspecting treachery or incompetence he did not kill/disband anyone, and left their upkeep in place.

He was kind to Jack. Again, he is the Leader and can't always be fussing over people, but when he had the time he did try to get Jack "fixed". And once Jack was fixed and apologized for not being in his right mind, which was the same as an employee saying "I'm sorry I haven't been a good member of your team lately", and not a comment I'd expect to hear from someone who had been enslaved for years, Stanley blew it off with praise for Jack's recent performance. A perfect response, in my opinion. That's how good leaders build loyalty, by focusing on the positive and minimizing the negative.

So again, while Stanley leaves much to be desired, he hasn't been shown to be any kind of domineering, off the hook monster. The worst we've seen him treat someone is the lack of respect he gives Sizemore. And on the face of it, not many people respect those with the most menial jobs in a society. Sizemore is a potent caster, yes. But he is also the Erf equivalent of a trash collector, but even worse.

[Tensu]

@ Hand of shadows: I didn't miss it, I went into it in the post right above yours.

@ Keistor:

1. I know, but my point is that she can still use the other schools to an amazing level of proficiency. She's the one who summoned Parson, for crying out loud!

2a. Why would he have said so? how many crazy people do you tell you don't know what they're talking about? I don't think you understand the amount of fear that Ansom must have been feeling at that point. If Ansom felt guilty, his expression would have been low, he would have looked depressed, not shocked or scared, because guilt is something we expect. We must already know who we've wronged and how in order for guilt to have any affect. If Ansom was fighting Wanda, he must have already come to terms with any guilt he had beforehand, otherwise he wouldn't be fighting. If the emotion Wanda generated was guilt, it would not have had the same expression or the same paralyzing effect. Fear, however, is always paralyzing so long as it's felt in the sufficient quantity. Ansom was behind enemy lines facing a powerful spellcaster who seems to have lost her freaking mind, and who has raised an army of his fallen men. and even when he thinks he's won, She's not scared of him, She states that he's done worse to her and dares him to come near. that's a pretty scary situation.

2b. Again, I don't think Ansom knows what Wanda is talking about.

3a. You're think like a real-world person. you need to be thinking like a virtual person. Play a game that has some kind of way to effect how much a character likes you and torture said character. then, start being nice to them. they'll bounce back pretty quickly, because in a simulation they can only hate you so much. thus even if you tortured them for two hours, they are only able to understand ten minutes. and even though baking them cookies wouldn't atone for bludgeoning them with a morning star (the flail kind, not the mace kind) in the real world, in the game world there are set rules of what will and will not raise how much someone likes you. loyalty is a stat just like attack in erfworld.

3b. yes, which still wouldn't necessarily rule out a morale change.

@ everyone:

while it's true that the water-user has some advantage against another water-user, that's nothing compared to how much of an advantage he has against a fire-user or an earth-user. the pliers are, again, a holy artifact. and "destroys the undead" is a pretty common holy artifact power. I wouldn't be suprised if Stanley's Hammer had the same power.

as for "touch me", there are several other explanations:

1. Wanda is bluffing, trying to psyche Ansom out.
2. Wanda is trying to keep Ansom behind enemy lines long enough for other units to croak him.
3. Wanda has some kind of close-range spell and was trying to lead him into a trap.

Now I admit that none of this makes as much sense from a literary standpoint, but again, Wanda is very talented with all forms of magic.It could attune to her for any one.

[Hatu]

There has been no real evidence or interpretation of events that in my mind shows that Wanda is going to get the Arkenpliers. There is no reason why any of the other named characters couldn't pick up the Pliers and become attuned to them. Even Stanley, as stupid as he is, is capable of gaining them. This, in my opinion, would be far more interesting than having someone else get the Pliers, as the other characters - especially those in the Coalition - would start to think that Stanley was right about the Titans' divine plan. In short, there's not enough actual evidence to convince me that Wanda is going to get the Pliers.

crzybggr kindly went through and explained my feelings on this for me. We know so little of how Erfworld works, and Wanda's actions are so ambiguous that no clear interpretation can be drawn right now. We're still at the stage where evidence must fill up the gaps in our theories, rather than the other way around.

Wanda may wind up with and attune to the Arkenpliers, but then again she may not. The scenes involving her and the 'pliers could make sense either way, because what we think is happening in those scenes will change depending on what we learn later.

-H

[Kreistor]

Where did you pull "enslavement" from? There is no indication that Stanley has enslaved anyone.

I was mocking someone else here. I believe that Jack is working for Stanley because someone else destroyed Faq (my belief is Ansom was involved).
I was responding to someone that suggested Jack was forced to work for Stanley.

I have to go. I'll respond to Tensu later.

[Kreistor]

1. I know, but my point is that she can still use the other schools to an amazing level of proficiency. She's the one who summoned Parson, for crying out loud!

So? The pliers destroy uncroaked. Wanda is a Croakamancer. Wanda has a hate on for Ansom, but instead of finishing him off, she goes straight for the Pliers. It's not rocket science to conclude that the Pliers are Croakamancy attuned.

Oh, and I'm not going to use this one, because I view it as a Deus Ex Machina, but here it is anyway:

Could anything except Croakamancy attuned Pliers in the hands of Wanda save Parson and win the siege of Gobwin Knob under the current conditions? Just something to think on.

2a. Why would he have said so? how many crazy people do you tell you don't know what they're talking about? I don't think you understand the amount of fear that Ansom must have been feeling at that point.

I do. Exactly zero fear. Wanda is down, out, not casting, unable to cast, broken, defeated, and almost dead. Ansom is full of righteuos anger at the one that created abominations of his friends. He feels hate, anger, rage, and revulsion. Oh, yeah, he'd feels whole heaploads of fear... not. He has won. Wanda is incapable of more than talking. She is an abomination to be put down like the monsters she creates. She is not to be listened to or trusted.

Unless you know she is speaking truth. Her reminder of what he cost her changes all that, but not to fear. His righteuosness dissipates. Fear does not cause that reaction, only knowledge that you have no right to righteousness does. She reminded him of a wrong he had commited. She reminds him that his admonishment of her is an admonishment of himself. There is nothing a hypocrite fears more than an inability to avoid his own hypocrisy.

And that results in the grimace of embarrassment in 122.9. It's not fear: it's acceptance that he is no better than what he hates. It is enlightenment in the worst way possible -- from someone you hate.

If Ansom felt guilty, his expression would have been low, he would have looked depressed, not shocked or scared, because guilt is something we expect.

Shock = wide eyed. Scared = raised eyebrows.

Ansom is pulling his lips back from one side of his mouth. The same side has his eye partially closed, and the eyebrow lowered. Try this: put your hand over the left side of his face (the right as we look at him). The right side looks pained, sad, and regretful, not shocked, surprised, or scared. Ansom is grimacing away from an uncomfortable truth: something he wanted to forget. Something he had to forget in order to villify Wanda. If Wanda is hateful because of Ansom's actions, then his hatred towards her is vile, and that's what he must hide from in order to remain confident and arrogant.

We must already know who we've wronged and how in order for guilt to have any affect.

Not "we"... "he". He must know who he's wronged and how in order for him to feel guilt. What we know is irrelevant to his guilt: his guilt to us is a revelation of a deeper mystery that is yet to be revealed, a mystery to which we may have been given other possible hints.

If Ansom was fighting Wanda, he must have already come to terms with any guilt he had beforehand, otherwise he wouldn't be fighting.

Different people deal with guilt in different ways. Some people deal by seeking forgiveness, but others suppress, forget, avoid, create justification after the fact, or even manipulate their memories to blame someone else. The older of my two younger sisters once swung a bat blindly and whacked my youngest sister in the head. Ten years later at the eldest's wedding, the younger related the story, but the elder insisted that it was the younger sister swinging the bat! This was absurd: there was three years difference, so the younger sister could never have hurt the elder swinging in this way, due to head height differences her swing was too low to hit the elder on the head. And I saw the event, so I backed up the younger sister's version. But that is how one person dealt with her guilt: modify memory such that she wasn't guilty anymore. Forgetting is another alternative, and one very reasonable for a holier-than-thou Ansom.

If the emotion Wanda generated was guilt, it would not have had the same expression or the same paralyzing effect.

Wanda wouldn't have known what effect it would have. She was just calling the scales balanced in order to show Ansom his own flaws were the same as hers. As for the expression: you see something entirely different than me. There is no surprise there: only regret.

Fear, however, is always paralyzing so long as it's felt in the sufficient quantity.

No sign of fear. No wide eyes, raised eyebrows, etc.

Ansom loses his righteousness in the face of hypocrisy. That gives anyone pause, since suddenly their course of action is less justifiable. How can Ansom mete out justice on Wanda for doing what he had done to her first? It would take only a moment to remember that this was war and she had to die, but for one bathed in self-righteousness, a blow to his justification will give pause.

Ansom was behind enemy lines facing a powerful spellcaster who seems to have lost her freaking mind, and who has raised an army of his fallen men. and even when he thinks he's won, She's not scared of him, She states that he's done worse to her and dares him to come near. that's a pretty scary situation.

Not to someone that is feeling righteuos anger, and not by someone that is down and almost dead. You're forcing it, Tensu. You see fear because you want to, not because the expression demonstrates it. Try to idenify the elements of that face that look fearful to you, and explain them as I have. I don't think you can.

2b. Again, I don't think Ansom knows what Wanda is talking about.

You're allowed. You're wrong, but you're allowed. If you were right, Ansom would not pause and he'd continue to mete out righteous justice. Fear can't stop that. Only truth halts justice in the hands of the righteous.

3a. You're think like a real-world person. you need to be thinking like a virtual person.

Okay, that got a laugh. This would be true if, and only if, you could prove that the author was writing Ansom as a virtual person. I will respond to this when you have succeeded in that effort. Good luck.

3b. yes, which still wouldn't necessarily rule out a morale change.

? Lost reference for this. What are you responding to?

while it's true that the water-user has some advantage against another water-user, that's nothing compared to how much of an advantage he has against a fire-user or an earth-user. the pliers are, again, a holy artifact. and "destroys the undead" is a pretty common holy artifact power. I wouldn't be suprised if Stanley's Hammer had the same power.

I would. He made note of his newfound power to create pigeons from nuts, so it would be well noted if he could destroy undead at a touch with it.

as for "touch me", there are several other explanations:

As I said before, there are alternate explanations for everything, but only one explanation that explains everything. Doctors begin their diagnosis by listing all symptoms and finding one explanation for them all, not by trying to find five diseases for five symptoms. Same goes here. There is one explanation that fits all pieces of evidence. It is, then, the most likely cause. It is possible that there are multiple causes, but that layers an extra level of difficulty on the author. It is far more likely that he has only one event in mind. A doctor that identifies a single root cause for many symptoms would proceed on that diagnosis first over one that required the coincidence of two simultaneous diseases.

[Hatu]

So? The pliers destroy uncroaked. Wanda is a Croakamancer. Wanda has a hate on for Ansom, but instead of finishing him off, she goes straight for the Pliers. It's not rocket science to conclude that the Pliers are Croakamancy attuned.

When did she do that? After Wanda beat Ansom, she ordered her minions to capture him. She obviously didn't intend to kill him, however much she hated him.

I *think* she then went to fetch the Arkenpliers herself (the blocking is very unclear to me), but that would stand to reason: she couldn't exactly send an uncroaked to pick them up, now could she?

Unless you know she is speaking truth. Her reminder of what he cost her changes all that, but not to fear. His righteuosness dissipates. Fear does not cause that reaction, only knowledge that you have no right to righteousness does. She reminded him of a wrong he had commited. She reminds him that his admonishment of her is an admonishment of himself. There is nothing a hypocrite fears more than an inability to avoid his own hypocrisy.

And that results in the grimace of embarrassment in 122.9. It's not fear: it's acceptance that he is no better than what he hates. It is enlightenment in the worst way possible -- from someone you hate.

Shock = wide eyed. Scared = raised eyebrows.

Eh, I think he looks confused more than anything else. That's a natural reaction to hearing something that makes no sense. I don't see any reason to read more into it.

I would. He made note of his newfound power to create pigeons from nuts, so it would be well noted if he could destroy undead at a touch with it.

I rather doubt that the Arkenhammer can disintigrate uncroaked the way the 'pliers can, but your reasoning is faulty. Stanley mentioned turning nuts into birds to Wanda because he had just discovered that power; he was testing it when she showed up. It's possible he had already learned the 'hammer could annihilate uncroaked, and didn't mention it simply because both he and Wanda already knew that.

As I said before, there are alternate explanations for everything, but only one explanation that explains everything. Doctors begin their diagnosis by listing all symptoms and finding one explanation for them all, not by trying to find five diseases for five symptoms.

That's absurd. That would mean that any time someone was suffering from two unrelated issues simultaneously, a doctor would be unable to diagnose those issues: he'd waste his time looking for a non-existant disease with all the symptoms of both issues.

Besides, the alternate explanations you dismiss can be just as complete. They simply require a different set of assumptions than the ones you prefer.

-H

[Tensu]

this is becoming a pain to respond to, but I do so anyway.

I don't know about you, but I would have gone for the pliers too. why?

1. holy artifact.
2. Overlord wants them
3. need to get them before someone else does
4. gives enemy advantage over undead
5. is Ansom's only weapon
6. probably more powerful weapon than staff

so she has six reasons to go for them without even wanting to use their powers.

I meant something more akin to what Hatu is saying. he's not panic-scared or frozen-in-terror scared, he's creeped out. like if say a crazy person was rambling about something he didn't understand. Wanda was being creepy.

you misunderstand my usage of "we". I didn't mean "we" as in "you and me" but "we" as in "sentient beings".

the problem with Ansom charging into battle without having come to terms with any guilt he may be feeling is that he would have known it was a liability. Ansom may be a little foolish, but I doubt he's that stupid. what's more, did your sister ever hit your other sister over the head with a bat again? in the same way, if Ansom hadn't come to terms with past guilt, he wouldn't have put himself into that situation again.

I never said Wanda knew what effect it would have, but when a self-rightous person meets guilt, they go into denial. take your sister for example. when a person hears something creepy that they don't fully understand, they are temporarily paralyzed by "the shivers".

again, not the kind of fear I was talking about. you thinking about when you see something scary. ansom heard something that creeped him out and confused him.

I don't think you understand indignation. you seem to think of it as blinding, when that's not the case. indignation can give into fear or confusion.

to say that Ansom wasn't a virtual person would be to discount the very nature of erfworld. it runs like a game. the people in it act like they're in a game.

Stanley made note of the pidgeons becase he had just found out. he may not have mentioned a power to destroy uncroaked because either a. He and Wanda where both already aware of such a power or B. he hasn't fought against any uncroaked with it yet.

I'd say it's still a little early to be making assumptions.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I do [understand the amount of fear that Ansom must have been feeling at that point]. Exactly zero fear. Wanda is down, out, not casting, unable to cast, broken, defeated, and almost dead. Ansom is full of righteuos anger at the one that created abominations of his friends. He feels hate, anger, rage, and revulsion. Oh, yeah, he'd feels whole heaploads of fear... not. He has won. Wanda is incapable of more than talking. She is an abomination to be put down like the monsters she creates. She is not to be listened to or trusted.

And yet with Wanda in such an incapacitated state, and after announcing his intent to croak her, he fails to do so. Not only does he fail to act on his words, but look at his body language! At first he is boldly pointing the Arcenpliers at Wanda, and this occurs over 2 panels as he describes how he is going to croak her. Once she speaks, though? The Arcenpliers are held across his body, in such a way that they are as far away from Wanda as Ansom can arrange while he retreats in the face of the (sarcasm here) incredible threat she poses to him. That is a fear reaction, not a guilt reaction. He might not fear bodily harm at her hands with her so weakened, but he so feared something that he decided to make some mealy mouthed remarks about how his personal indulgence in killing her will only cost lives. In other words, he makes a weak excuse and buggers off. He is afraid of something, most certainly.

[Kreistor]

Hey, I guess I don't get to be bored for a little while...

When did she do that? After Wanda beat Ansom, she ordered her minions to capture him. She obviously didn't intend to kill him, however much she hated him.

True. Change that to "doesn't personally see to his capture" instead of "finish him off". Which is more important to Stanley at the moment she made that choice? Capturing the enemy commander or capturing the Arkentool? I don't think there's a clear winner there, so it would boil down to Wanda's opinion. We know she feels Ansom cost her more than 2000 troops were worth to Ansom. She goes for the Tool, instead. It must be very important to her. There was no one near the Arkentool. She could have ordered one unit to fly down and get it, while capturing Ansom herself. She doesn't even consider it. Her decision is never in any doubt.

I *think* she then went to fetch the Arkenpliers herself (the blocking is very unclear to me), but that would stand to reason: she couldn't exactly send an uncroaked to pick them up, now could she?

She can give uncroaked more complx orders than most, but "Bring me the arkenpliers" is pretty simple. Yes, she could have stated that order.

Eh, I think he looks confused more than anything else. That's a natural reaction to hearing something that makes no sense. I don't see any reason to read more into it.

Confusion would come with "What are you talking about?" She shut him up and shut him down with one sentence. He knows what she is talking about. He knows he wronged her.

I rather doubt that the Arkenhammer can disintigrate uncroaked the way the 'pliers can, but your reasoning is faulty. Stanley mentioned turning nuts into birds to Wanda because he had just discovered that power; he was testing it when she showed up. It's possible he had already learned the 'hammer could annihilate uncroaked, and didn't mention it simply because both he and Wanda already knew that.

If you like. I lend more power to what could be said but isn't than others. If it isn't said when it should have, then it doesn't exist.

That's absurd. That would mean that any time someone was suffering from two unrelated issues simultaneously, a doctor would be unable to diagnose those issues: he'd waste his time looking for a non-existant disease with all the symptoms of both issues.

No, I said he'd treat the single cause first. Most cures are mutually exclusive. You often cannot treat for three things at once: you have to choose one at a time. If it's not possible to try all three cures at once, you select the one that might cure everything first. It only makes sense, since it has the highest chance of saving the patient's life.

Besides, the alternate explanations you dismiss can be just as complete. They simply require a different set of assumptions than the ones you prefer.

Yes, they can, but it is far less common for two conditions to occur simultaneously than one condition that explains everything. If 1/100 people suffer from Disease a, b, and c, then if A explains all 6 symptoms, there's a good chance the person has it. If b and c explain the same thing, he chance that is the correct choice is much lower, with it occuring with 1/100th the frequency of the single disease cause. Basically, by going with disease A, you'll be right 100 times more often than wrong. If you start with the B and C cause, you'll possibly kill 100 people for every one that you save. This is the choice that doctors have to make. TV dramas notwithstanding, it often takes days or weeks tro get the results of tests, not minutes or hours. They must make choices based on insufficient evidence.

I don't know about you, but I would have gone for the pliers too. why?

Or for Ansom:

1) Capture leaves the RCC rudderless and without a leader to organize the attack.
2) Capture removes a large leadership bonus from the enemy forces.
3) Capture reveals his immediate plans to her torture.
4) Vengeance for whatever wrong he did her.
5) Capture of Ansom removes the presence of anyone that can retrieve the Pliers from RCC. (Proof is that Wanda is rescued where the Pliers had landed. No RCC forces are near enough to retrieve the Pliers except Ansom, or Wanda would have been captured, too.)

So, basically, by capturing Ansom you also capture the Pliers. Wanda wasn't thinking: she was reacting. The Pliers were more important to her personally than embarrassing Ansom was to her personally.

He is afraid of something, most certainly.

You're right. He's afraid of touching her with the Pliers. Why? It only makes sense that he knows something bad for him will happen if he does. And that would only have happened if Ansom has prior knowledge of Wanda and the Pliers. She has held them before...

[SteveMB]

There was no one near the Arkentool. She could have ordered one unit to fly down and get it, while capturing Ansom herself.

The Arkenpliers dusts most uncroaked on contact. (It's possible that this doesn't happen if nobody is actively wielding it, but we can't assume that, and neither can Wanda unless she knows something we don't.)

Confusion would come with "What are you talking about?" She shut him up and shut him down with one sentence. He knows what she is talking about. He knows he wronged her.

His expression definitely looks rattled to me -- that could be out of guilt, fear*, or both of the above. (*I'm thinking more in terms of fear of a dirty secret being revealed or of his worldview being shaken rather than fear of the battle turning against him -- his physical courage is impeccable, his moral courage perhaps a bit less so when seriously challenged.)

[Tensu]

what are you talking about? there are plenty of leaders in the enemy forces besides Ansom. capturing him would disorganize troops for a few seconds, tops.

as for the odds of the enemy getting the pliers, they where busting through the wall and had men underground, and I doubt Ansom would have gone down without a fight. by the time wanda subdued him they may have broken through the walls. Wanda is a caster, not a fighter. she was better off sending her melee units to subdue Ansom, who is clearly a melee fighter.

[Kreistor]

what are you talking about? there are plenty of leaders in the enemy forces besides Ansom. capturing him would disorganize troops for a few seconds, tops.

Because Generals from different countries always come to terms and agree on questions of leadership in seconds, suppressing their own ambitions in favour of those from other countries, especially when you've got 10x the number of troops and can't lose.

You might want to review the machinations of the various Generals under Eisenhower. If he'd died, do you think he would have been replaced in "seconds"?

[Chameon]

Mmmk, if this has been mentioned before, I apologize, however, consider, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0040.html row fate and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html panel 8. Croakamancy equals Fate Magic, and Wanda has admitted to being fairly talented at all magics, if particullarly uninterested in non-croakamancy. Also, whilst I'm doing the rant every wimp does, Charlie's pretty amazingly powered as well, with his Archons blasting large areas to bits, and their is little doubt that Wanda'd have to walk on tiptoes around Stanley if she attuned to the pliers. A crippled 'tool and a delusional one, how very...very...fun.


P.S. Yes, I am a noob, and yes I do apologize for the stupidly long URLs, didn't figure out the method yet.