So was Stanley aka The Tool running away as a chicken actually a good thing?

[Oslecamo]

in otherwords, so long as you have him under contract and KEEP him under contract, then he will fight as hard as for what you payed for... and it would also help to hire a very shrewed lawyer

Wich is basically saying that Charlie isn't trustworthy, since he will twist your contract at first possible oportunity to benefit himself whitout really caring if you end up crushed by the twoll you were "suposed" to stop or not.

Like making a new contract full of new evil clauses when the other guy is desesperate. That isn't just oportunism, that's being a greedy jackass, specially when those conditions don't include the "magical protection".

Second, just take a look at how many archons charlie need to to take GK's Garrison... But we must consider that Gk had basically no air force and had used most of their air defenses, which i think means mainly only long range units can attack the archons; afterall they attack from the air from long range and as such don't come near the melee units... and finally those were the number of archons needed to take the garrison BEFORE Parson uncroaked over 2,000 additional troops... Parson made have had those archons outnumbered, but very few of his troops could be considered as powerful, and very few could fight them; this is part of why the dwagons were such a huge loss for him as they are some of the few units that could measure up to the archons AND fight them

You're forgeting something very important here:

Combat is bilateral in Efworld-if they attack you, you can attack them back. The dwagons suffered heavy wounds from ground troops while attacking the siege, despite having their long range breath weapons. Air units can keep themselves safe in the air by not attacking against nonfliers and nonarchers, but well, if Charlie wanted to attack Gobwin Knob, he would need to drop his Archons to the ground level where they would be zerged by the uncroacked.

Similarly, since the archons were in air space, they were completely unable to shoot down the troops in the grounds, despite clearly having ranged attacks. Hamster doesn't finish off Wanda because it would mean geting in range of the hard rock golems, and the Archons explicity say they're unable to help him in the ground battle before they can change zones again.

Hamster couldn't go after Charlie in the air, but should Charlie attack Gobwin Knob directly, Hamster would be able to fight back with all his units.

[slayerx]

Wich is basically saying that Charlie isn't trustworthy, since he will twist your contract at first possible oportunity to benefit himself whitout really caring if you end up crushed by the twoll you were "suposed" to stop or not.

Charlie followed his contract to the letter...
Ansom's the one who broke off the contract...
Charlie's contracts seem to be air tight; it would be bad for business if people found out he was leaving in loopholes... the only time charlie exploits his position is in between contracts... hell, that's the reason why charlie doesn't switch sides while under contract; untrustworthiness is bad for business

And again, with bogroll, that ASSUMES there was something the archons were able to do to protect Ansom... so far the only thing we know they could have done was warn him, but Ansom didn't pay for the magical protection... no one seems to be blaming the archons for not saving Ansom which seems to indicate that they could not

Like making a new contract full of new evil clauses when the other guy is desesperate. That isn't just oportunism, that's being a greedy jackass, specially when those conditions don't include the "magical protection".

New clauses which Charlie informed Ansom about before he signed... exploiting your position is practically the definition of opportunism... Its all within the rules, Ansom had the full right to not accept the offer. And fact of the matter is, he never asked for magical protection... Ansom's fault he did not want to pay for the add ons

You're forgeting something very important here:

Combat is bilateral in Efworld-if they attack you, you can attack them back. The dwagons suffered heavy wounds from ground troops while attacking the siege, despite having their long range breath weapons. Air units can keep themselves safe in the air by not attacking against nonfliers and nonarchers, but well, if Charlie wanted to attack Gobwin Knob, he would need to drop his Archons to the ground level where they would be zerged by the uncroacked.

Similarly, since the archons were in air space, they were completely unable to shoot down the troops in the grounds, despite clearly having ranged attacks. Hamster doesn't finish off Wanda because it would mean geting in range of the hard rock golems, and the Archons explicity say they're unable to help him in the ground battle before they can change zones again.

Hamster couldn't go after Charlie in the air, but should Charlie attack Gobwin Knob directly, Hamster would be able to fight back with all his units.

First off we have already seen exceptions to "if you are attacked you can attack"... for example when over forests a flying unit can ONLY be attacked by other flying units and forest units; you don't fit that then you are a sitting duck

If you look back to the dwagon attack, while some of the dwagons remained in the air, a number of them went down to ground level to use melee attacks which made them vulnarable to other melee attacks; furtharmore, we can see that there were some long range units in the seige

[Kreistor]

No broken link, no chance to form a new link to uncroak the volcano. No volcano and the chances of a win go way down. Maybe it could have been done but if Parson really WAS trapped in his " no win" scenario, then it's unlikely.

That's vital to the plot, but there's no evidence that Stanley predicted the need for Maggie to be freed up to form a new link.

Wich is basically saying that Charlie isn't trustworthy, since he will twist your contract at first possible oportunity to benefit himself whitout really caring if you end up crushed by the twoll you were "suposed" to stop or not.

Well, all mercenaries are not trustworthy. so that's like pointing out that sharpened steel cuts things. Mercenaries are trustworthy based on their own moral values. No morals means zero trustworthiness.

But where is Charlie on that scale? We don't know how much Natural Thikamancy affects allies -- Obedience, Loyalty, and Duty are the important aspects. Personally, I highly doubt alliance causes any more than Obedience to come into play, so Loyalty remains to your own side and Duty to your Ruler. But it's possible Obedience only goes so far as the same type of obedience a soldier in our world would have. Just don't know. If tehre are Natural Thinkamancies at play in an alliance, then you can trust your ally more than in our world.

But we do know some things about Charlie. He does not consider switching side because it would affect his reputation. What you are suggesting is that Charlie will screw anyone he can get away with, and that runs counter to his reputation concerns. Doing something like that, and being obviously responsible, hurts your reputation, and lowers your value. You become untrustworthy and get fewer jobs. The jobs become higher risk -- the things you don't want to lose trustworthy soldiers for. This runs very much counter to a business of hiring out mercs.

Mercs are generally untrustworthy because if they see the opportunity to become rich in an instant, they'll take it. During the middle ages, knights wandered Europe going from war to war selling their services, not as a business, but as small bands (really good idea for starting an RPG campaign, BTW... the band usually had a Knight, squire, two crossbowmen, and one or more other specialists... in an RPG, a priest of a war god would work). Small bands can get instantaneuosly rich and leave the career. A business cannot. Charlie appears to be running a long term merc business with a lot of employees. It is much harder for a large company to get rich than a small band, and if it takes that one shot betrayal to get rich, there is no more work for the future. Charlie is running a nation, and nations need to retain long term reputation. So in that, Charlie would have a higher level of trust than those old bands, or regiments.

That's why Charlie needs that reputation. He knows 100000 Schmuckers here will cost him 2 million later. He'll pass on the get-rich-quick scheme in favour of the long term employment contract.

And, please note my earlier responses. You are still referring to events that are yet unproven. You haven't even attempted to justify how Charlie was responsible for the Archons choosing not to tell Ansom about the veil, when Jaclyn told Jillian about the lack of a spell on Wanda without orders from Charlie. How can he be responsible for literal translation of a contract, when his archons can choose to operate outside the bounds of their contract?

[ishnar]

Sure I can, since I did. I think what you're trying to say is that I "shouldn't". "Can't" means I am not capable of something. "Shouldn't" means that there are negative repercussions to what I did. You might want to bone up on "can't", "won't", and "shouldn't".

I'm quite familiar with the nuances. But, since you wanted to be pedantic about this. First of all, there are no negative repercussions, so by your own statement, why would I say shouldn't, or were you expecting me to track you down to your house and hit you with a bat? Let me put your mind at ease, I have no intentions of inflicting some negative repercussions on you, nor do I expect some negative repercussion to automatically manifest without my assistance.

The use of the word(s) can't goes beyond simply "capable of doing" it also can include "capable of doing under certain conditions" or "capable of doing and achieving a given result." Those conditions may be implied or the result could be implied, and doesn't need to be stated if the context is clear enough. If someone has his right hand tied to his left foot and I tell him, "You can't run a seven minute mile" when said person is perfectly capable of doing so--under normal conditions--that doesn't make my statement any less true. Especially if, in the context of the conversation, the runner is fully aware, or should be aware, that I'm referring to his bound state.

Thus, to make the entire phrase more explicit, "You can't quote a sentence beginning with "so" and leave all the preceding out without cluttering your arguments in fallacy.

I can only misquote if I respond to the quoted material on its own: that is, if I treat the quote without that missing context, then I would be misquoting in order to embarrass the author on something he does not believe.

If you misquoted, motivations are irrelevant. It doesn't matter why you misquoted, misquote is a term of result not motivation. I said it was teetering on being a misquote, because I could make an argument for it being one, as opposed to one that requires no argument.

In this case, the underlying assumption of the OP was that Stanley was incompetent. The sentence I quoted was merely a part of that belief: alone, it was without context in my post, but I treated it with the context the sentence originally had; consequently, there was no malice in my action.

(See? I treated you as if you had used the word "shouldn't" instead of "can't". You misquoted yourself, but I got the intent and treated it the way you wanted; at least, in the end I did. Precision in language is vital when debating on the internet.)

Yes, and that is why you shouldn't misquote me by assuming I meant shouldn't when I clearly used can't. I did not feel you treeted my quote within the context, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it. As I said before, misquoting does not reflect malice, the fact that you inexplicably presume it does, and the pedantic nature of your response however does reflect a degree of negative emotions, misguided I might add. I thought this was discussion was going along rather well.

Generally in life, people's presumptions of other's motivations reveals more about themselves than the other's.

Let me get this straight: you're complaining that I didn't protest what you protested, so therefore I am off-topic?

I said this "The OP, as opposed to the title, doesn't just let the statment stand alone. He adds all this stuff about the oppositions actions" And I detailed in the rest of the post, starting with "This is NOT" addressing the specific points I had issue.

No, Ishnar was replying to Oslecamo.

Gah, sorry Oslecamo, I try to watch the loss of nested quotes, but they still escape me sometimes.

gah, for some reason nearly every post in this thread is wall of text.

[Oslecamo]

Well, all mercenaries are not trustworthy. so that's like pointing out that sharpened steel cuts things. Mercenaries are trustworthy based on their own moral values. No morals means zero trustworthiness.

Here's the error on your logic. The only mercenaries who suceed in long term careers are the ones who prove unquestionable trustworthiness. The best ones would rather die fulfilling their contracts than retreat from an hopeless situation. It stays great in the curriculum.

If you or your soldiers start to twist the contract it will profit you now, but when the word gets out, few people will want to hire you, because they know you can't be trusted.

And it doesn't really matter if it's you or your minions who do the twisting. A leader is responsible for his lackeys. If the archons make their own interpretations and Charlie let's them get away with that, then it's Charlie's responsability and fault.

Of course, the catch here is that since Ansom is dead and the coalition will probably be obliterated there won't be anyone left to tell of Charlie's manipulation.

And like Charlie said, he really wants that mathmancy artifact, enough to try to take the city of Gobwin Knob on his own while risking his precious archons.

Charlie probably has bigger plans than being a mercenary for all his life. This war is a great oportunity for him. Most of the big sides have been severly weakened, leaving a ripe oportunity for Charlie to start building his own empire.

[Kreistor]

Thus, to make the entire phrase more explicit, "You can't quote a sentence beginning with "so" and leave all the preceding out without cluttering your arguments in fallacy.

Which is true if, and only if, the removed context is inaccessible to the reader. It's there, so the context is not gone, only a little harder to get to than if it had been completely re-quoted.

Your quoting rants only apply in a pen and paper discussion. Here on a forum, nothing is lost unless someone goes back and deletes the material I didn't quote, in which case the forum tracks the date of the edit and I can show that it has changed since I replied.

Really, catch up to the electronic age. It's really quite powerful.

If you misquoted, motivations are irrelevant.

But I didn't, since all your context still exists for the interested reader. So why are you arguing?

Look, by your own argument, breaking up my post into bits and pieces spoils the flow of my argument, and changes the context. By breaking it up in the way you have, you are guilty of the same misquote, even if you quote every word from my post.

It's just not a true argument. Someone that wants to see it all in context just has to scroll back and read the original. Context is not lost, and if someone really does try to respond to a contextless quote, you can catch them in the lie. I've done it myself, and I've called out participants in arguments I was not involved with for violating that. It just doesn't work against a good online debater, so stop getting so caught up in what might happen. Learn how to deal with it elegantly, and you'll be so much more powerful as a debater. Arguing over debating rules loses you readers.

Yes, and that is why you shouldn't misquote me by assuming I meant shouldn't when I clearly used can't.

You still haven't proven that version of "can't" is applicable in an online, electronic medium. I'll give you P&P and verbal, but the ease of access to the quoted material on a forum ensures that malicious context removal is easily caught and dealt with. Even by third parties. (Like I said, I've done that.)

I did not feel you treeted my quote within the context, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.

The "can't" vs. "shouldn't" quote? Meh... Like I said, I treated it the way it should have been, as "shouldn't". If multiple interpretations were possible, then that's your mistake for allowing multiple valid interpretations, not mine for responding to the one you didn't intend, especially when your intended meaning for "can't" can only apply where the quoted material is inaccessible to the reader.

But the original quote you began with was not yours to interpret as out-of-context, since it was the OP's words, not yours.

Done with this, unless you get back on topic. I will not stop snipping unnecessary quoted words, because this forum already has horrible bandwidth issues, and the context is still there in the thread history to be read if the reader suspects manipulation.

[tomaO2]

That's vital to the plot, but there's no evidence that Stanley predicted the need for Maggie to be freed up to form a new link.

But that wasn't the question. Debating Stanley's intelligence is beside the point. All we are here to determine is if the act of Stanley running away helped or hurt Parson's chances to defend Gobwin Knob.

Given how vital breaking the old link was to Parson's success, I think the answer is clearly "yes".

[tomaO2]

That's vital to the plot, but there's no evidence that Stanley predicted the need for Maggie to be freed up to form a new link.

But that wasn't the question. Debating Stanley's intelligence is beside the point. This thread was created to determine if the act of Stanley running away helped or hurt Parson's chances to defend Gobwin Knob.

Given how vital breaking the old link was to Parson's success, I think the answer is clearly "yes".

[BillyJimBoBob]

Hmm, this leads me to an old theory I had tought off but had forgoten.

Parson [Edit by BJBB: Stanley, I think you mean] isn't really that incopetent, it's the rest of the world that's conspiring against him.

We have a piker who binds himself to an Arkhentool. And then becomes an overlord. And then proceeds to get himself a powerfull 11 empire city.

Royal Ansom can't have any of that! He uses his sick charisma to rise up a coalition against Big Evil Bastard Stanley and crush his empire before it gets too strong.

At the same time, Stanley's luck runs out. His warlords are killed one after the other in a series of unpredictable incidents. We see that the last one in particular is one shoted by a lucky bolt due to a axemen squad wich is only there because the Marbits found a titan ruby out of nowhere.

I agree with this, for the most part. Stanley is a non-royal, and we see from the klogs that the royals like to gang up on non-royals.

Stanley is a very poor strategist, and has some unappealing personality facets, but that is all that is a negative for him.

And like dr pepper sugested, Charlie could probably be pulling strings in the back scenes all this time! He implants visions of grandeur in Stanley, making him do some stupid decisions wich cost him dearly. He makes Stanley put his thinkmancer working on the map thingy so she can't detect the mind manipulation.

So Charlie gets to make a fat profit while probably geting several pieces of nice loot.

I doubt that Charlie is as powerful as to be able to make Stanley his mind slave or influence him in the way you describe. But it's clear that Stanley and Charlie have had some interaction in the past, or Stanley wouldn't have the strong personal dislike for Charlie that Wanda tells Parson about.

From a plot point of view, Stanley had to leave. While initially impressed by the destruction of 40% of the RCC siege engines, he was disgusted by the reversal at the doughnut of doom. He would not have allowed Parson the free hand he had in directing the GK forces, and we would never be sure if any good moves Parson pulled off were due to his own brilliance or due to the Tool's influence. So he had to leave.

But I also like tomaO2's post.

[Kreistor]

But that wasn't the question. Debating Stanley's intelligence is beside the point. All we are here to determine is if the act of Stanley running away helped or hurt Parson's chances to defend Gobwin Knob.

Uhm... no, I disagree. Oslecamo is not debating whether it helped, he's asking whether Stanley was actually competent or lucky. He presents the splitting of the leadership as an obvious successful tactic.

With Page 136, we can be certain that no, it would not have mattered in the end: yes it helped in the short run, but long term, it did not affect anything, except to leave Stanley alive where he may have been dead. (He's not a caster, so he can't go to the magic kingdom. If he were in the volcano, he would probably die.) With or without Vinnie, Stanley, Jillian, etc., GK would have been driven back to the same point, and Parson would have suggested the same tactic. Stanley may have chosen against it, but I doubt it. So the volcano catches Ansom and Vinnie as well as the rest of RCC. Same final result, with only the causes of deaths changing.

[ishnar]

I'm going to quit this argument too, I just deleted my entire response because I re-read the thread wondering where this bad blood started and I think it comes down to this sentence.

btw, re-read the op

I meant that "read" to be past tense read not command form. So I guess I'm to blame for this. My intention was to say "I re-read the op" as an introduction for the following quote of the OP which I had neglected to respond to in my previous post. But instead it came off as a snippy insult, so now I understand why your tone turned so sour. My apologies.

I've been trying really hard not to return your snippy comments in-kind and now that I know your attitude was my fault, I'm glad I refrained from fanning the fire further.

[Oslecamo]

Uhm... no, I disagree. Oslecamo is not debating whether it helped, he's asking whether Stanley was actually competent or lucky. He presents the splitting of the leadership as an obvious successful tactic.

Actually, tomaO2 raises a point I indeed intended to discuss in this thread. When Stanley ran away it seemed like Hamster was even more screwed than before, but I believe that, either by genious or luck, Stanley's retreat actually helped more Gobwin Knob than it prejudicated it. I also wanted to hear the other playgrounders opinion on that, sorry if I wasn't very clear.

With Page 136, we can be certain that no, it would not have mattered in the end: yes it helped in the short run, but long term, it did not affect anything, except to leave Stanley alive where he may have been dead. (He's not a caster, so he can't go to the magic kingdom. If he were in the volcano, he would probably die.) With or without Vinnie, Stanley, Jillian, etc., GK would have been driven back to the same point, and Parson would have suggested the same tactic. Stanley may have chosen against it, but I doubt it. So the volcano catches Ansom and Vinnie as well as the rest of RCC. Same final result, with only the causes of deaths changing.

Notice the bolded part. This is war, last man standing wins. Stanley being left alive while most of the coalition leadership is charred to ashes is a much better end than everybody being dead.

It also helped lure out Charlie's archons. If the dwagons were still at GK Charlike would probably never have risked so many of his elite troops. Now Charlie is severly weakened and ripe for the taking.

Plus, not only Stanley himself survived, his retreat allowed him to save his finest nonmancer troops. Those three gobwins and dwagons will provide him with a good base to rebuild his forces, whereas if they had been left in the city they would be roasted meat by now.

Also, Wanda and Sizemore are both able to cough out troops at a good rate, so Stanley being left alive makes all the diference. A few turns of uncroacked and golem producing and Stanley can restart his crusade, while most of his enemies lost their best comanders and troops.

For a battle that started 25 to 1, this is an excellent conclusion for the Tool.

[Kreistor]

I also wanted to hear the other playgrounders opinion on that, sorry if I wasn't very clear.

Well you got mine, so you should be happy.

Notice the bolded part. This is war, last man standing wins. Stanley being left alive while most of the coalition leadership is charred to ashes is a much better end than everybody being dead.

Only for Stanley. But it's not certain Stanley couldn't have survived. Could he have climbed into a dwagon's mouth and ride it out? Stanley might have survived instead of died.

It also helped lure out Charlie's archons.

But Charlie is a neutral. Next war, Stanley might have gotten over his mutual dislike and hired Charlie against the RCC. He's in the same situation as Stanley (non-Royal ruler, arkentool, etc.), so they really should be natural allies against the Royals.

Plus, not only Stanley himself survived, his retreat allowed him to save his finest nonmancer troops.

No, he didn't. He saved 6 dwagons and no KISS.

Also, Wanda and Sizemore are both able to cough out troops at a good rate, so Stanley being left alive makes all the diference.

It only changes who they are working for, if Stanley can pay their upkeep without the horde in GK which just got turned into dust. He probably had enough to get started with a single Foolamancer in Faq: he left the upkeep for Parson and co. in GK.

A few turns of uncroacked and golem producing and Stanley can restart his crusade, while most of his enemies lost their best comanders and troops.

We don't know that. How much of their forces the RCC lost is not certain, nor the quality of troops and commanders involved.

For a battle that started 25 to 1, this is an excellent conclusion for the Tool.

No, it isn't. He lost his city and has to start over. It isn't even better than he expected, since his delusion convinces him that he is destined.

An excellent result would have begun back on Parson's first turn in command. Ansom dies in the trap giving Stanley the pliers, and Parson goes on to destroy the siege capacity of the RCC. RCC can't get past the walls, Stanley rebuilds, and laughs in the face of his attackers. That's an excellent result.

Survival alone is never enough to be an excellent result. It's only adequate. It's at best a draw. Stanley is set back years or decades, and the RCC takes time to rebuild and try again.

[Oslecamo]

Only for Stanley. But it's not certain Stanley couldn't have survived. Could he have climbed into a dwagon's mouth and ride it out? Stanley might have survived instead of died.

Yeah, he just would need to breack out of the archon air circle who laugh at veils. Not very probable.

But Charlie is a neutral. Next war, Stanley might have gotten over his mutual dislike and hired Charlie against the RCC. He's in the same situation as Stanley (non-Royal ruler, arkentool, etc.), so they really should be natural allies against the Royals.

Stanley didn't like Charlie from the beginning. And Charlie had no trouble not only working for the enemy, he also tried to take Gobwin Knob himself to steal stnaley's best warlord. That's hardly neutral.

No, he didn't. He saved 6 dwagons and no KISS.

Check out the 3rd panel better. There's clearly a KISS soldier riding a blue dwagon. In the rest of the panels we don't get a close up on the remaining dwagons, so it's possible some of the remaining have the other 2 KISS elite.

It only changes who they are working for, if Stanley can pay their upkeep without the horde in GK which just got turned into dust. He probably had enough to get started with a single Foolamancer in Faq: he left the upkeep for Parson and co. in GK.

All the mancers were literally willing to fight to the last breath for Stanley. I'm pretty sure they're willing to work some turns whitout pay. Plus there's now plenty of loot at the GK ruins right now to restart a treasury.

We don't know that. How much of their forces the RCC lost is not certain, nor the quality of troops and commanders involved.

Ansom clearly stated when he was assaulting the wall solo that Hamster had just croacked 2000 of the finest troops of his side. Plus he was himself a top comander, pliers and all. The other sides aren't as specific, but well, Ansom had probably persuaded them to send their finest troops as well.

No, it isn't. He lost his city and has to start over. It isn't even better than he expected, since his delusion convinces him that he is destined.

An excellent result would have begun back on Parson's first turn in command. Ansom dies in the trap giving Stanley the pliers, and Parson goes on to destroy the siege capacity of the RCC. RCC can't get past the walls, Stanley rebuilds, and laughs in the face of his attackers. That's an excellent result.

Survival alone is never enough to be an excellent result. It's only adequate. It's at best a draw. Stanley is set back years or decades, and the RCC takes time to rebuild and try again.

Ansom is dead. He doesn't get to restart at all. And he had brutal advantage on all fields(except in brain matter). He's the one who has reasons to complain.

The doughnut of doom having worked and destroying the siege would have been the perfect result, but let's face it, war plans very rarely go 100% as planned.

Like Vinnie himself said, even if they had turtled up the dwagons wouldn't be assured to take them down, specially with Jillian and archon suport.

Plus normal infantry is able to damage walls as far as we've seen. Siege helps, but isn't a must, and one of Ansom's errors was precisely waiting to position the siege instead of simply zerging GK with numbers and crushing it before Wanda got the chance of geting the uncroacked reinforcments.

So in conclusion Stanley is indeed set back, but his enemies are set back even more, wich is a good result for Stnaley. Not perfect, but much better than being buried under tons of molting lava. Also, the pliers are in GK, waiting to be dug up, wich shouldn't be that hard with Sizemore's help. Another artifact for the collection.

And then there's the reputation. Who would dare to attack his Toolship again when the news come out on how he dizimated thousands of troops in a couple of turns? The royals will need some time to think before they dare to attack him again.

[slayerx]

All the mancers were literally willing to fight to the last breath for Stanley. I'm pretty sure they're willing to work some turns whitout pay. Plus there's now plenty of loot at the GK ruins right now to restart a treasury.

Assuming that they CAN
Generally in turn based games with unit upkeep, if you can not maintain the upkeep you automatically loose the unit... with erfworld, unit upkeep could be needed to pop the unit's daily food as well as fully healing them and restoring their strength... so the unit will quickly become useless at best, croak at worst without upkeep

Ansom clearly stated when he was assaulting the wall solo that Hamster had just croacked 2000 of the finest troops of his side. Plus he was himself a top comander, pliers and all. The other sides aren't as specific, but well, Ansom had probably persuaded them to send their finest troops as well.

Considering how King Don feels about spending money, i would not find it hard to believe that other royals would hold back on the troops they send in

pretty much depends on how much each side was offended by stanely i would assume

Ansom is dead. He doesn't get to restart at all. And he had brutal advantage on all fields(except in brain matter). He's the one who has reasons to complain.

Ansom was just the chief warlord for his side... Jetstone is ruled by the one who i would presume is his father. So the jetstone side is very much still running

Plus normal infantry is able to damage walls as far as we've seen. Siege helps, but isn't a must, and one of Ansom's errors was precisely waiting to position the siege instead of simply zerging GK with numbers and crushing it before Wanda got the chance of geting the uncroacked reinforcments.

The strength of the walls is determined by the number of enemy troops on the walls... busting through the walls for infantry might only be possible if their are few troops on the wall; hence Ansom making a soft spot... If there were more troops, it is entirely possible that the RCC troops would be unable to even damage the walls

So in conclusion Stanley is indeed set back, but his enemies are set back even more, wich is a good result for Stnaley. Not perfect, but much better than being buried under tons of molting lava. Also, the pliers are in GK, waiting to be dug up, wich shouldn't be that hard with Sizemore's help. Another artifact for the collection.

From the latest strip, it would be quick to assume that the pliers have been left behind... considering the red warlord is not burning like everyone else; some are concluding that the pliers may be protecting her... which mens that the pliers are now in the hands of another side

And then there's the reputation. Who would dare to attack his Toolship again when the news come out on how he dizimated thousands of troops in a couple of turns? The royals will need some time to think before they dare to attack him again.

Until the royals take into account that Stanely barely has anything of a city left and is thus going have rebuilding his troops... the other sides on the other hand still have their cities can rebuild their armies and go after stanely before he can rebuild... while they may recognize that Stanely in a sense won, they will also notice that he has practically nothing left

Actually, tomaO2 raises a point I indeed intended to discuss in this thread. When Stanley ran away it seemed like Hamster was even more screwed than before, but I believe that, either by genious or luck, Stanley's retreat actually helped more Gobwin Knob than it prejudicated it. I also wanted to hear the other playgrounders opinion on that, sorry if I wasn't very clear.

it would be Luck, no doubt about that...
though still we saw how things ended with stanely leaving...
We can now only speculate on how things might have turned out if Stanely had stayed there with his dwagons... and one possibility is that Parson might have been able to win WITHOUT needing to resort to the volcano tactic; hell at best, he might have been able to do it without destroying the city... and the worst outcome would be the same damn thing, except that Stanely would probably not have those scant few dwagons and and one or so hobgoblins

[Oslecamo]

Assuming that they CAN
Generally in turn based games with unit upkeep, if you can not maintain the upkeep you automatically loose the unit... with erfworld, unit upkeep could be needed to pop the unit's daily food as well as fully healing them and restoring their strength... so the unit will quickly become useless at best, croak at worst without upkeep

Stanley was taking in acount paying several dwagons upkeep untill he reached FAQ, wich surely wouldn't be cheap. Now he can use those resources to pay the mancers and Hamster. Anyway, since upkeep seems to mean food, I believe troops can hold on some turns whitout food, at wich point they die out of starvation. Healing seems to be automatic tough.

Ansom was just the chief warlord for his side... Jetstone is ruled by the one who i would presume is his father. So the jetstone side is very much still running

I know that Ansom wasn't the supreme ruler(it seems like all supreme rulers stay at their capital and let others risk their life in the frontline), but it was probably the best warlord they had. Plus they lost an arkentool, and those, unlike warlords, don't just pop out when you spend smuckers.

The strength of the walls is determined by the number of enemy troops on the walls... busting through the walls for infantry might only be possible if their are few troops on the wall; hence Ansom making a soft spot... If there were more troops, it is entirely possible that the RCC troops would be unable to even damage the walls

Before Webinar's defeat Hamster hardly had any troops. It would be impossible to him to effectively hold the line on all fronts. And with Jillian/archon suport making a weak point would be piece of cake.

From the latest strip, it would be quick to assume that the pliers have been left behind... considering the red warlord is not burning like everyone else; some are concluding that the pliers may be protecting her... which mens that the pliers are now in the hands of another side

Indeed this is an intriguing question. Should she sucessfully return home with the pliers she's on to become a major character. But Stanley and his remaining dwagons are still out there, and I wouldn't be admired if said warlord is killed on a diving attack to retrieve the precious artifact, with the coaltion unable to puruse due to the lack of aerial units.

Plus I still think she'll burn to death.

Until the royals take into account that Stanely barely has anything of a city left and is thus going have rebuilding his troops... the other sides on the other hand still have their cities can rebuild their armies and go after stanely before he can rebuild... while they may recognize that Stanely in a sense won, they will also notice that he has practically nothing left

Those other cities probably have other problems to worry about other than Stanley. If they keep wasting troops in a wild goose chase some other third party will take advantage of that and attack the coalition who will be unable to counter since they've been wasting their troops.

it would be Luck, no doubt about that...
though still we saw how things ended with stanely leaving...
We can now only speculate on how things might have turned out if Stanely had stayed there with his dwagons... and one possibility is that Parson might have been able to win WITHOUT needing to resort to the volcano tactic; hell at best, he might have been able to do it without destroying the city... and the worst outcome would be the same damn thing, except that Stanely would probably not have those scant few dwagons and and one or so hobgoblins

I highly doubt so. Ansom+Vinnie+Jillian made for a very very dangerous and smart trio who would've probably managed to outsmart Hamster. Altough each of them had flaws of their own, togheter they suported each other quite well, while Stanley would probably limit Hamster's choices.

And above all, the link wouldn't have been broken, so no foolmancer to hold back Jillian and no Maggie to fix Wanda and form a new link to uncroack the volcano. The release off the mancers from the link to do other stuff was Hamster's biggest advantage, and whitout it, it would come down to sheer number and leadership bonuses, in wich the coalition had in big advantage.

[Kreistor]

And above all, the link wouldn't have been broken, so no foolmancer to hold back Jillian and no Maggie to fix Wanda and form a new link to uncroack the volcano. The release off the mancers from the link to do other stuff was Hamster's biggest advantage, and whitout it, it would come down to sheer number and leadership bonuses, in wich the coalition had in big advantage.

You are basing this off of events that would not have happened.

1) Hold back Jillian? From doing what? Without the goal of killing Stanley, she's just another air unit capable only of melee attacks. Good vs. dwagons in limited quantity, but not against a fleet.

2) Stanley will have 30 dwagons. We have not seen Archons vs. uninjured dwagons with Chief Warlord, Ruler, Artefact bonus, caster support, and air defenses. That means Archons don't take Airspace, and Jillian commits suicide trying to come in by air. To beat 30 dwagons, it took a major Transylvito air force.

3) No archons means no DDR, so the breach hits Dance Fighting uncroaked with no counter. Parson gets his meatgrinder.

4) Charlie wouldn't have more than 6 Archons. Parson only spoke to Charlie because Stanley left and didn't take a book. With Stanley in RCC, Parson can't get a message to Charlie at all, so no deal, and Charlie has no knowledge of how many Archons he needs. (More than 30... 30 was enough to take Garrison with 0 dwagons, no Stanley, no Arkentool bonus, and 2800 fewer uncroaked... Charlie asked how many he needed before Wanda raised the Jetstone troops. In fact, 30 might not have been enough to take GK that day, since Charlie was operating on old information.)

HOWEVER

The entire point of this story was that nothing Parson did would work in the long run. All that would change is how Ansom broke through and what rabbits are placed in the RCC hat for them to find. They WILL break through, they WILL push Parson back, and they WILL have plot armor. So, no matter what anyone does, it will always turns out the same way. So, no, it doesn't matter if Stanley left. It doesn't matter if Jillian gets captured again. Charlie can't make things any better or worse, in the end: all that changes is how we get to the position where Parson breaks the rules to win. Speculate about what might have been all you like: it doesn't change anything, just the details.

(BTW, you're right, one KISS guy survived the battle for the pass and is returning with Stanley.)

[Oslecamo]

1)

Ansom said he brought Jillian precisely to deal with the dwagons, and then she would have Vinnie+bats+archons+unitaurs+orlies and probably Ansom himself. Mind you, uncroacked unitaurs(wich were weaker than regular unitaurs) were good enough to go toe to toe with Ansom. Jillian would have a flleet of her own suporting her. And if bats were so deadly under Caesar's influence, just imagine them under super charismatic Ansom's bonus.

2) and 3).

What caster suport? What DDR? Three mancers busy in the link, Wanda is with her mind crippled, the only thing left for Hamster are the dwagons.

It didn't take a major Transylvito air force to beat 30 dwagons. It took an elite Transylvito fast strike force to curb stomp 30 dwagons with an artifact on their side. With Ansom, pliers and the archons suporting Jillian and whitout the mancers helping Hamster and Stanley things aren't pretty at all, and the Tool perfectly knew that, since he chose to abandon his capital city rather than try the odds.

4) Charlie wouldn't have more than 6 Archons. Parson only spoke to Charlie because Stanley left and didn't take a book. With Stanley in RCC, Parson can't get a message to Charlie at all, so no deal, and Charlie has no knowledge of how many Archons he needs. (More than 30... 30 was enough to take Garrison with 0 dwagons, no Stanley, no Arkentool bonus, and 2800 fewer uncroaked... Charlie asked how many he needed before Wanda raised the Jetstone troops. In fact, 30 might not have been enough to take GK that day, since Charlie was operating on old information.)

Charlie could have attacked right there before Wanda created her uncroacked army. He just made the big big mistake of trying to get even more profit out of the situation by leting Ansom run to his doom and force him to hire Charlie out of desesperation for a fat fee.

Speculate about what might have been all you like: it doesn't change anything, just the details.

Well, the whole point of this discussion is that the story follows rules and not just plot-power.

I imagine you didn't like the last comic very much, since it indeed feels like a deus ex-machina, pulling out a super weapon out of your pocket to curb stomp the other side.

But it's the little details in between that make the story interesting. And that's indeed what we're discussing here, a theoretical scenarion on "what would have hapened if the characters had done X and plot-power didn't exist".

[slayerx]

Before Webinar's defeat Hamster hardly had any troops. It would be impossible to him to effectively hold the line on all fronts. And with Jillian/archon suport making a weak point would be piece of cake.

The RCC at the warlord dinner/meeting made it clear that they could NOT take the walls as they were... the infantry alone and the scant few seige they had would not have been enough...

Hell one thing we have to take into account is that many of the infantry were atop seige towers when they were digging, which could mean that infantry can only dig through a wall while on a seige tower... or they are only capable f doing enough damage from a seige tower

not to mention that if Stanely did not leave, take the walls would have been even harder since they would have the dwagons to protect the walls from air troops... hell give them an uncroaked warlrod and the dwagons might be able to cripple the remaining seige even furthar

Those other cities probably have other problems to worry about other than Stanley. If they keep wasting troops in a wild goose chase some other third party will take advantage of that and attack the coalition who will be unable to counter since they've been wasting their troops.

Do they? Considering how many Stanely just croaked, i think that would put him high on their priority list... They would view him as a potential threat and as such would not want to risk him getting back his power... he may have craoked many but it cost him dearly and put him in a moment of weakness. NOW would be the best time to strike and finish him off instead of waiting and letting him build a new army to wipe out thousands again

And aside from jetstone, the others did see Stanely as being highly aggressive and an enemy... and jetstone would still fight out of pride and revenge for Ansom

I highly doubt so. Ansom+Vinnie+Jillian made for a very very dangerous and smart trio who would've probably managed to outsmart Hamster. Altough each of them had flaws of their own, togheter they suported each other quite well, while Stanley would probably limit Hamster's choices.

There are so many factors to consider... like the fact that Charlie played the biggest role in foiling Parsons plans... with Stanely around Charlie would have never talked to Parson, he would have never known about the brilliant warlord and a valuable artifact; in addtion to never knowing how many archons it would take to take over gobwinknob... What's the end result? Charlie doesn't have a personal interest in the battle and thus does not offer to give Ansom even more support... with Ansom having his own airforce, charlie might have only sent like 10 archons to the the battle for Ansom and/or ansom would only pay for that many in his overconfidence.

With the number of archons reduced, they would not be able to maintain the DDR that was used towards the end. the reason why they could not stop them was because there were too many; croak 4 and 4 new ones take their place... but with fewer archons it might have been possibly to widle them down to 3, and thus end the DDR

And above all, the link wouldn't have been broken, so no foolmancer to hold back Jillian and no Maggie to fix Wanda and form a new link to uncroack the volcano. The release off the mancers from the link to do other stuff was Hamster's biggest advantage, and whitout it, it would come down to sheer number and leadership bonuses, in wich the coalition had in big advantage.

Not necessarily... with Ansom knocking on the front door with all his troops, unrivaled recon becomes obsolete. it would have been easy for Parson and wanda to convince Stanely to break the link so that they could utilize the foolamancer and the thinkamancer for the upcoming battle... and if the foolamancer managed to somehow have a run in with jillian he would have been able to aid in the battle; who knows maybe Wanda could have snapped him out of too

Ansom said he brought Jillian precisely to deal with the dwagons, and then she would have Vinnie+bats+archons+unitaurs+orlies and probably Ansom himself. Mind you, uncroacked unitaurs(wich were weaker than regular unitaurs) were good enough to go toe to toe with Ansom. Jillian would have a flleet of her own suporting her. And if bats were so deadly under Caesar's influence, just imagine them under super charismatic Ansom's bonus.

From what we know of the RCC's attack plan, Ansom was not gonna join the air battle... most likely saving himself and his bonus for the ground battle after they get through the wall

not to mention that we saw that most(not all) of the air defences was enough to wipe out the entire airforce except for Jillian, Vinnie, 2 archons, and a gwiffen... and those air defences would have been in addition to the 30 dwagons force... so it still comes down to archons, jillian, vinnie and his bats...

Furtharmore, they had hundreds of bats... without reinforcements from vinnies home, they would not have had nearly as many bats except for the ones with vinnie... and there is nothing saying that Vinnie's capitol is close enough that they could have brought in those reinforcements soon

one more thing, Stanely would have been able to mount ALL of his knights on those dwagons all with dance fighting instead of just 3

[Kreistor]

Well, the whole point of this discussion is that the story follows rules and not just plot-power.

Do you realize what you're saying here? You're saying the story is not influenced by an author's desires. You're saying that Erfworld exists outside of Rob's mind, and all the author is doing is relating something that really happened. For without a plot, there is no story. That makes it history, not story. Obviously this is quite incorrect.

And besides that, you're wrong. The story didn't follow rules. Parson told us that. Some force in the story ensured Parson could not succeed, so any rules were non-existent. The story did not follow rules, because "No rule cannot be broken" means what were previously rules were really just suggestions, because the plot demanded Parson lose despite his prowess. These limitations were presented as rules to Parson, but they were never rules for Parson.

I imagine you didn't like the last comic very much, since it indeed feels like a deus ex-machina, pulling out a super weapon out of your pocket to curb stomp the other side.

You really need to bone up on DEM if you think there was any DEM in this story. Why don't you read up on this. A plot that is resolved by the protagonist is not DEM, no matter how powerful his idea was. DEM is only present when the plot has become too complex for the protagonist to resolve.

But it's the little details in between that make the story interesting. And that's indeed what we're discussing here, a theoretical scenarion on "what would have hapened if the characters had done X and plot-power didn't exist".

You need to go back to your own OP. You speak about Stanley being lucky...

Or his toolship is just damn lucky. But hey, that's also very important. It never hurts to be lucky.

The author decides if a character is lucky. All reactions to actions are determined by the author, not some random number generator, especially in this comic where the plot involved the rules being twisted against the protagonist. Luck is plot, since the plot demands certain results not occur. (Ie. The plot demands Parson live, so no random arrows come over the ramparts and hit him in the eye. Stanley must survive to see GK, so he winds up leaving his fight in the direction of the volcano.) You brought plot into the discussion first, so that permits me to discuss it. There is no third party in a story to decide what lucky and unlucky events will occur: all lucky events are written into the story by the author. If Stanley is lucky, it is Rob that made him lucky, not some fantasy Erfworld.

Look, this is what it comes down to: because the story involved the twisting of events to counter successful ploys by the protagonist, we do not know what Erfworld is really like. We are seeing it through fish-eye lenses. Without an untainted view of the world, it is not possible to determine what would have happened without this twisting. We can point at a few events where the world appears to have twisted, but we can't know all of them. Consequently, our ideas of what is powerful and what weak is not accurate. Without basic knowledge of an untainted Erfwrld, we cannot determine what would happen to different choices. Therefore, the only determination we can make is the one that we do know: any ploy by Parson and GK would have only resulted in temporary benefits, and the twisted world would have ensured it turned to dross.

So, no, Oslecamo, you can't tell what would have happened if anything changed. And you certainly can't be trusted to even judge it fairly. You've made huge bold claims and failed to present any proof for these claims. For instance, prove that Archons teleport. Prove that Ansom is stronger than Caesar, or even has a higher leadership. Prove that Charlie can hear conversations outside of Eyebooks. And those just for starters: if I rip through yur posts, I know you have included half a dozen others. If you invent unproven abilities for people, how can anyone judge theim accurately. The only way this works is if you stick to what is known and proven: you're seemingly incapable of that. So, no, I'm not living by your rules. (Frankly, because you make those rules up on the fly. There's nothing in your initial post about this discussion being limited in any way to exclude the realities of Parson's treatment in Erfworld.) You'll just have to deal with that,

[BillyJimBoBob]

Ansom is dead. He doesn't get to restart at all.

Ansom isn't the leader of his side. That side still exists, and didn't send all of its troops against Stanley. It was weakened to be sure, as was every member of the RCC. This may cause tensions for a long time as the balance of power may have shifted and there may be some opportunism amongst the members as they look over their weakened neighbors. And it might be a long time before the royals decide to put together a campaign against a non-royal.

So in conclusion Stanley is indeed set back, but his enemies are set back even more, wich is a good result for Stnaley. Not perfect, but much better than being buried under tons of molting lava. Also, the pliers are in GK, waiting to be dug up, wich shouldn't be that hard with Sizemore's help. Another artifact for the collection.

Um, let's face it: Stanley is crippled. His forces amount to himself and a handful of dwagons and maybe 3 KISS, and Parson and the 3 'mancers. Each of the RCC sides should have reserves enough to crush that, should they find the will to go that route. And as for the 'pliers? This game has a day as the turn length, and erupting volcanoes don't just switch from "go there and die" to "it's fine to start digging for gems and the odd Archentool" within a span of a few days.

And then there's the reputation. Who would dare to attack his Toolship again when the news come out on how he dizimated thousands of troops in a couple of turns? The royals will need some time to think before they dare to attack him again.

This I agree with 100%. I think all of the RCC leaders will spend several turns carefully reviewing what just happened to their forces and why, and then some more time thinking about how the balance of power has shifted between themselves and their neighbors. More adventures will have to await the results of that consideration.

For instance, prove that Archons teleport.

This one is easy. I did so here, using the strip in which the archons first appear. You could say that Charlie teleported them, but there is no functional difference between "archons teleport" and "the guy who owns the archons can teleport them".

[Kreistor]

First, two of the comments above are not mine: they are Oslecamo's. Could you clear that up, please, BJBB?

This one is easy. I did so here, using the strip in which the archons first appear. You could say that Charlie teleported them, but there is no functional difference between "archons teleport" and "the guy who owns the archons can teleport them".

I don't see any evidence they didn't fly. Page 42. "Proceed to" is not "Teleport to", "Fly to", nor "Walk to": it does not imply any particular form of transportation. And you need to give a coordinate in any case, walking, flying, or teleporting so they know how to get there. Admittedly, walking may need better directions for ground travel, but the Archons fly, so a final coordinate is enough for "as the crow flies" travelling. There is no sound indicating a spell being cast or a sudden arrival in frame 4. There's a glow from behind, but that can be just a camera effect since it is behind only one archon (rather than all three equally), and doesn't indicate a spell or ability used.

And in 104, as in the previous strip, we do not see an empty airspace before the Archons are revealed. We have three sounds in frame 8 with no clear eveidence of what they are for, but we do have Parson standing, moving a heavy chair, and Bogroll who is prone to releases of gas (excitement often causing such events).

There's nothing conclusive there. You need a clear sky in one frame then a "poof" and archons in the next to prove teleportation, or someone actually stating, "They can teleport." They could easily have simply flown in both of those cases.

[BillyJimBoBob]

First, two of the comments above are not mine: they are Oslecamo's. Could you clear that up, please, BJBB?

Sorry about that, and fixed.

I don't see any evidence they didn't fly.

Yes you do, but you didn't address what I wrote in the other thread, so I'll paste it here for completeness.

In the first panel we see the archons in mountainous terrain similar to that surrounding Charlies castle, and the sun is setting and dim light. Charlie gives them an X and Y coordinate to go to, and refers to "the great western conflict" which isn't a typical form of reference for something happening nearby. And then the archons just appear over Ansom and Jillian with a glowing spell effect, and it seems to be mid day or at least a bright sky. Looks like a clear case of teleportation to me. In the second case I suppose it's arguable that the archons flew there, but given the conversation between Parson and Charlie I find this highly unlikely. Asking if 14 archons can take the garrison, and then how many additional archons it would take makes it very unlikely that Charlie has more than 14 archons within range of GK. And if you accept that they teleported in the first case then there's no reason to dispute the second.

Edit: And if you teleport far enough west, you catch up to the sun and the hour of the day isn't as far along. Matches the artwork and Charlies turn of a phrase perfectly.

The sounds you refer to I always took to be the GK air raid alarms, with their alarm sounds having been "Erfed" to the fart-like noises.

[Kreistor]

In the first panel we see the archons in mountainous terrain similar to that surrounding Charlies castle, and the sun is setting and dim light.

Setting? Really? Certain of that are you? How's this...

It's morning in Charlescomm. Charlie has a call from the RCC. "Please send units to X, Y." Charlie agrees. Of course, other sides have their turn first (Transylvito for one), and though we only deal with a few in this comic, there are many others across the world. Time passes as they have their turns. The sun rises. Finally, with the sun high in the sky, the Archons fly to the coordinates, perhaps even taking a length of time themselves, and the sun moves even further.

Teleportation is actually a bad idea in this system. Let's say RCC wants to kill someone. They talk to Charlie and Transylvito, organizing their two forces to be in a certain place. A single bat attacks 30 Archons. Since we now know that casting can take place when being attacked, the Archons teleport... to Tower in GK. To wherever they think Stanley is... and with good intelligence, they are right in his face and he is pretty much dead. Defenders can pour into Tower, but the Archons can cast for being attacked, and simply teleport out when Stanley is dead. Teleportation = game breaking. If it could do what you think it can, there would be no story. All major characters would be assassinated (especially RCC with GK having the table that tells them exactly where enemy units are). All Royals would be viewing Charlie as a paramount threat to their own survival, and they'd end that threat fast.

Truth is: time in Erfworld cannot be constant. If the sun moved constantly, whoever goes first could simply not end turn until sunset, and no one else in the world gets a turn. The sun, then, must be tied to the turn order, moving with the turns. There has so far been no indication of a limit on turn duration, with every turn ending on a command, and no one timing out. So, the sun probably moves as the turn order progresses, so flight or other movement essentially takes no time. (How else could four armies all move full daily allotments in succession? Their days need to be many times longer than ours, if an Erfworld unit moves in a day as far as a human does here.)

Oh, and BTW... since this world is based on a board game, what makes you think Erfworld is round? Isn't flat more appropriate?

Now, in case you think that frame 4 is in the same time frame as frame 3, well, Rob is known for not keeping to fixed chronological progressions in this comic. Not everything you see or hear is simultaneous.

Ansom talking to others while a possible scene from the future appears in frame 4, which can't be simultaneous because that's Ansom in the frame.

A conversation between Vinnie and Jillian the night before overlapping a battle where neither is positioned near each other.

Rob has merely chosen to transition from scene to scene, where the previous conversation spilled over into the next event, which happens hours later. Happens in movies and television all the time.

And then the archons just appear over Ansom and Jillian with a glowing spell effect

A cut from one place to another does not indicate something just "appeared" in the sky. To demonstrate a sudden appearance, you need a previously clear airspace, then an unclear airspace, and some kind of surprise on the locals faces, if there's no spell effect sound. Further, careful examination of the "spell effect" reveals it is not consistent across all three Archons. It is bright behind the head of the middle archon, and barely perceptible on the outsides. Had they each teleported themselves, each would have their own effect, and it would be identical on all three. I'd also expect a trio of "pop" or similar spell sound effect. At best, if this is teleportation, then it was done by someone else to them, because it has a center point instead individual visuals. That means they can't do it themselves.

Oh, and if they could, it is technically their turn... they could teleport away from the volcano.

The sounds you refer to I always took to be the GK air raid alarms, with their alarm sounds having been "Erfed" to the fart-like noises.

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that. I'd rate that the highest probability.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Setting? Really? Certain of that are you?

I'm as certain as I can be without someone or something making it more positive. Yeah, it'd be nice to see some "pop" sound effects, and it'd be nice to see two panels back to back, one with and one without the archons. But we do get a span of 3 panels where the archons are in mountains, Charlie gives them instructions to go west, and then they are suddenly overhead of Ansom and Jillian. Hovering, with no lateral motion expressed in the artwork.

Surprise on the face of the locals isn't needed. Ansom had just contracted for the archons, he shouldn't be surprised when they teleport in, especially if he knows of this ability. If you're contracting for services, especially with a weasel like Charlie who breaks out every ability on a separate line item, the abilities of the troops you're hiring would be very well spelled out for you. So, no shock or surprise is needed to either support or refute teleportation. But, if shock supports teleportation for you, there is shock on the faces of Bogroll and Maggie in 104, when the achons appear around the GK tower.

The two strips you cite don't seem to have any thematic similarity to the introduction of the archons strip, so I don't think they lend any credence against teleportation. The first is Ansom describing how he hopes the coming battles will go, either on the GK road (no battles there except for the assassination of the siege), in the tunnels (which was a far cry from marbits kicking the goblins behinds). The second is a depiction of the actual battle between the Transylvito forces and Stanley, with the discussion of the mechanics of force modifier stacking overlaid. Neither theme is at all similar to the introduction of Charlie and the archons, to me at least.

It's not spelled out in a way that makes it 100% clear, agreed. But the strips I cited did make me think that the archons had teleported, or had been teleported. Until informed otherwise by the authors, that's my take on their ability.

I agree with you that teleportation is a most potent ability. It's on my long list of the powers Charlie and the archons have demonstrated and reasons why I think he is presented as being way too powerful for the setting. I'm hoping that if Charlie is involved in the future that the loss of the archons over GK is a significant blow to his force structure, and he is forced to reduce the scale of his ambitions greatly.

[Oslecamo]

Oh, and if they could, it is technically their turn... they could teleport away from the volcano.

The archons made it clear that they couldn't move from the GK sky to help Ansom fight the uncroacked hordes or directly suport the coalition in the ground battle. So they also couldn't run away.

In my opinion, teleport consumes all your movement for the turn, so even if you can get anywhere you want you're then a siting duck untill your next turn. No fancy hit and runs.

Still indeed teleport anywhere it's broken, so in a more carefull analysis it is probably limited to open areas, so you cannot simply teleport inside the tower, but you can teleport in the sky area, wich fits the comic so far.

And even if they can't teleport, well, several archons apearing over GK that had remained completely undetected untill then means Archons either have some sick movement, sick stealth capacities or both. They can enter a capital city whitout anyone noticing anything untill they're literally knocking at your door, wich is almost as good as teleport if you want my opinion.

[Kreistor]

I'm as certain as I can be without someone or something making it more positive. Yeah, it'd be nice to see some "pop" sound effects, and it'd be nice to see two panels back to back, one with and one without the archons. But we do get a span of 3 panels where the archons are in mountains, Charlie gives them instructions to go west, and then they are suddenly overhead of Ansom and Jillian. Hovering, with no lateral motion expressed in the artwork.

But we also see time pass in the three strips. the first strip is morning sky, and the next two blue sky. For your theory to hold true, the second panel with Charlescomm main city (not sure of name) would need to be morning as well.

Surprise on the face of the locals isn't needed. Ansom had just contracted for the archons, he shouldn't be surprised when they teleport in, especially if he knows of this ability.

No, I'm sorry, but to prove it you do. I'm not saying that it can't be teleportation. I'm saying for absolute proof you must have an indicator of immediate motion. You don't. We know they fly. The sky changing over time is consistent with long term movement. The problem can be solved without adding an unknown ability to the Archons. The Occam's Razor answer is that they flew. (Real Occam's Razor, not that stuff about simplest solution. The solution with the fewest added unknown elements.)

If you're contracting for services, especially with a weasel like Charlie who breaks out every ability on a separate line item

That's what you call weaselish? Charlie has clearly stated his reputation is important to him -- he won't switch sides for money, even if he is currently unemployed. Remember that there are two sides to a contract -- and Charlie will have faced people trying to screw him. Contracts protect you from other people's abuse. And note that Jaclyn was not under orders to not provide services not paid for. The others made it clear that they could have chosen to do the same thing. Charlie leaves it to his Archons to decide how best to fulfill their contractual obligations.

He's no weasel. He's just afraid of getting screwed.

So, no shock or surprise is needed to either support or refute teleportation.

It's needed to prove it. You can suspect it all you want, but if you want to prove it, you need something more than indifference.

But, if shock supports teleportation for you, there is shock on the faces of Bogroll and Maggie in 104, when the achons appear around the GK tower.

Or the alarms shocked and surprised them. That's fairly common, actually. Loud noises frighten people because they are intended to. But I do note that in frame 9 the Archons are actually quite a distance away, as if they just flew into Airspace. And they're even closer in frame 10, where they flew to.

Further, in frame 9, we see 18 Archons in the limited airspace we can see, all tightly packed. 15 more the next frame. 10 by 105.10. 105.7 shows about 30 in Airspace, scattered around the tower. I think it's pretty clear that the Archons flew in and surrounded the Tower: they didn't teleport to around the tower.

The two strips you cite don't seem to have any thematic similarity to the introduction of the archons strip, so I don't think they lend any credence against teleportation.

They are proof that Rob will overlap conversation from one time frame with images from another. That provides precedent for the words in 42.3 to be from the same time period from 42.2, but the images from the time period in 42.4. It's a common method of connecting two events, connected through theme (in this case Charlescomm joining the fray) but separated by time (don't want to wste ink or images on long, boring overland flights with no conversation of note). Highlander used it... "1632 was a very good year... so and so did this, that occured" and we see the time period shift to 1632 while MacLeod continues speaking in 1986. That sort of thing.

It's not spelled out in a way that makes it 100% clear, agreed. But the strips I cited did make me think that the archons had teleported, or had been teleported. Until informed otherwise by the authors, that's my take on their ability.

You can beleive what you want, but it's not proof of something else. They could have flown. There's nothing in those images inconsistent with flight.

I agree with you that teleportation is a most potent ability. It's on my long list of the powers Charlie and the archons have demonstrated and reasons why I think he is presented as being way too powerful for the setting.

Or they flew and they are more balanced. See how easy it is to rectify that problem?

You know, I do the same thing sometimes. Other people screamed when I said Archons were casters, trying to indicate that they were Archons that could use weapons, and so forth. Or even splitting hairs thinking Natural Magics don't have the same problems as Spells being cast. This all predated 121 where they can't do anything to help Ansom. That means their abilities have the same limitations as spells.

I'm hoping that if Charlie is involved in the future that the loss of the archons over GK is a significant blow to his force structure, and he is forced to reduce the scale of his ambitions greatly.

What ambitions? All we know for certain is that his side hires out is a merc. He isn't grabbing terrain, murdering Rulers, trying to get Arkenpliers, etc. Stnaley has ambition. Ansom has ambition. What evidence has Charlie ever shown that he wants to be more than a merc? He might want Parson merely because Charlie would be able to hire out the best Chief Warlord on the planet. At worst, it takes a piece off the board that stands against him and reduces his own losses. The point is: we don't know what Charlie's ambitions are, so how can you hate what you don't know actually exists? Charlie's side is mountainous, and so it may have very limited resources, fundamentally restricting him from building up to attack his neighbours. We just don't know enough at this time what ambitions he has or what he is actually capable of achieving.

Do I think Charlie has no ambition? Heck, yeah, he does! But if he gets set back, he just continues to appear as a merc and stays the course. No one will know he has ambition until he actually breaks kayfabe and becomes a conqueror. And as for you personally wanting Charlie to suffer... why do you really care who the next antagonist is? If it's Charlie, then great, it's Charlie. If we wind up with a three way conflict between RCC, Stanley, and Charlie, why do you dislike Charlie's inclusion?

At the very least, this will be a wake up call for Charlie. War means losses, and no matter how smart the general, that rule never changes.

The archons made it clear that they couldn't move from the GK sky to help Ansom fight the uncroacked hordes or directly suport the coalition in the ground battle. So they also couldn't run away.

But we know from Pclips that it was their turn, since they had allied with Jetstone. We also know that they could cast spells, with the DDR occuring without GK attack into Airspace: and we know they can use natural abilities, like the contract with Ansom, which occured when it was not their turn and not under attack.

The only way for the Archons to not be able to teleport out is if:

1) It was a spell and they were too drained.
2) Limited uses per day Natural Ability.
3) They couldn't teleport at all.

I can't see thirty nearly drained Archons taking Garrison. The teleport would have to drain more than 50% of their juice, leaving them extremely weak relative to normal. Charlie isn't that kind of risk taker.

I seriously doubt option 2. Why teleport over GK when you can fly and save the limited use? At worst, the 4 or 5 Archons in the vicinity would have no reason to teleport. If it was 2, then it was a serious waste of limited resources, and they deserved to die for being cocky during wartime.

In my opinion, teleport consumes all your movement for the turn, so even if you can get anywhere you want you're then a siting duck untill your next turn. No fancy hit and runs.

Actually, that's not possible. If that was true, then the Archons could not take GK on the day if they teleported in. Charlie has that option, and it is on the table: Parson convinces him to wait it out. Taking Garrison involves movement for the attacker, so they must have had movement left.

[BillyJimBoBob]

You can beleive what you want, but it's not proof of something else. They could have flown. There's nothing in those images inconsistent with flight.

The same applies to the reverse: You can believe that they do not teleport, but there are strips which can and have been used to support the theory that they can teleport. You can't prove that the implication given by those strips is invalid. You're reading just as much into the strips when you look at them and assume overland flight as I am when I look at them and assume teleportation. Perhaps the question will be answered in a future strip.

Or they flew and they are more balanced. See how easy it is to rectify that problem?

No, as you could remove a decent third of the abilities of the archons and they would still be unbalanced as compared to the rest of the forces we've seen in the world. Look at it this way: We know that according to Parsons battle calculation that the archons could take the garrison in a single turn, the garrison of the best defensive position known on Erf. And the archons arrived in a single turn after Parson told Charlie how many archons were needed to take the garrison in a single turn. It took the entire combined RCC forces 5+ turns and thousands of troops to focus enough force to threaten to take the GK garrison. Thousands of troops and multiple turns, compared to about 30 archons and one turn.

Now, cut their power to 1/10, just as a thought exercise. Now it takes about 350 archons a single turn to take the garrison of the most defensible city in the game, compared to the same 5+ turns and thousands of RCC troops. Still quite unbalanced.

Quite a potent force those archons are, wouldn't you agree?
The only things which can balance this incredible potency, from the perspective of a TBS game, are a long production cycle, a high upkeep, and perhaps a weak defensive ability as an exploitable weakness against their potent offensive abilities. I take the comment by Charlie that the loss of Jaclyn was a "bloody nose" as an indication that the archons are either very expensive to produce, few in numbers, or both. Vinny seemed to feel that Stanley killing a few Jetstone field units was not much of a big deal, but a single archon slain is a "bloody nose"? Must be valuable, and are demonstrably valuable.

What ambitions? All we know for certain is that his side hires out is a merc. He isn't grabbing terrain, murdering Rulers, trying to get Arkenpliers, etc.

Actually, we do not know this at all. We know that he is offering his archons to the sides in "the great western conflict", and that's about it. We don't have any idea of the size of his side, or how he interacts with the other sides near him. We do know that he'd love to get the mathamancy artifact Parson has, Parson himself, and it's easily presumable that he would like the Archenpliers as well, since he was willing to wait a turn to see if Parson could make good his prediction that Parson would have the 'Pliers by the end of the turn, and Charlie knew that Parson would lose forces in the fight and that his archons could take the GK garrison in a single turn. Plenty of ambitions shown in the strip.

And as for you personally wanting Charlie to suffer... why do you really care who the next antagonist is? If it's Charlie, then great, it's Charlie. If we wind up with a three way conflict between RCC, Stanley, and Charlie, why do you dislike Charlie's inclusion?

For the same reasons I gave above. Charlie has too much potency to be a credible antagonist. Only if the archons lost at the volcano were a sizable portion of his force structure will he be weakened enough to be a credible antagonist. If he has another 30ish archons then he can take just about any city in the game in a single turn.

The only way for the Archons to not be able to teleport out is if:

1) It was a spell and they were too drained.
2) Limited uses per day Natural Ability.
3) They couldn't teleport at all.

You're not exercising your imagination, there are plenty of other reasons.
4) Teleportation counts as Move (they had none since they ended turn)
5) Teleportation costs some amount of Move.
6) Charlie can teleport them from his capitol using the Archendish, but not to it as they need to be at the 'Dish for that function.
7) They can only teleport at the start of a turn.
8) They can only teleport on their turn.
X) Many others.

[Kreistor]

No, as you could remove a decent third of the abilities of the archons and they would still be unbalanced as compared to the rest of the forces we've seen in the world. Look at it this way: We know that according to Parsons battle calculation that the archons could take the garrison in a single turn, the garrison of the best defensive position known on Erf.

Rock, Paper, Scissors. Are any of them more powerful than the other? Rock is clearly superior to Scissors, so it is clearly the most powerful. Therefore, always choose rock.

The fallacy of your argument for Archon ability is equivalent to that I just made. And it falls apart for the same reason. The Archons are casters, and infantry are vulnerable to area effect abilities, like the spells we see them cast. One Archon can easily be worth 50 infantry. But are tehy worth more than 50 Archers? Those archers are going to be firing back, and one thing we've never seen are any abilties that would make them invulnerable to arrows. Archers, in turn, are vulnerable to infantry... if that infantry can get in close. So there you have an RPS, or a possible one. Remember that Charlie is smart and doesn't want to suffer losses. He's not going to let his Archons fight anything they are vulnerable to, so you're never going to see the Archons losing badly (except to complete surprises like ancient volcanoes suddenly awakening). So there should never be evidence the Archons aren't really powerful, but that doesn't mean they are, only that they are used well.

I could do the same as you with the dwagons. We saw ~60 dwagons destroy 50 siege units, and sundry support. If the only example I had of dwagon combat was that, then we might prove them to be extremely overpowered. We see, however, that dwagons are vulnerable to certain things because they have to face surprises.

And the archons arrived in a single turn after Parson told Charlie how many archons were needed to take the garrison in a single turn. It took the entire combined RCC forces 5+ turns and thousands of troops to focus enough force to threaten to take the GK garrison. Thousands of troops and multiple turns, compared to about 30 archons and one turn.

Yeeesss... ground forces normally move at the rate of their slowest unit (siege units are usually the slowest). FLying units usually move signifcantly faster than ground units, and siege armies are very slow. Just check here... one gwiffon has 4 move and others (including Archons) have 24+. That's 6x the move, plus they ignore terrain modifiers ground troops can't avoid. It is entirely reasonable for a flying unit to cross terrain it takes ground units days or weeks to cross.

Now, cut their power to 1/10, just as a thought exercise. Now it takes about 350 archons a single turn to take the garrison of the most defensible city in the game, compared to the same 5+ turns and thousands of RCC troops. Still quite unbalanced.

Only if you ignore cost/unit and upkeep, and yes I know you bring that up later. But in games like these, cash is a vital balance factor. Those Archons may cost 100x to buy and 100x the upkeep vs. a standard infantry unit. If casters were cheap, Stanley would have thousands, instead of summoning Parson for 350K. Stanley has dwagons, for instance. Very powerful units, obviously. But he can't buy them: he has to risk his own neck and subdue them. There's the fundamental balance. He can't summon them to order. If the Archons are allowed to Charlie by the Dish in the same way that dwagons are to Stanely by Hammer, then there is going to be some limiting factor on their creation, and it may not even be cash.

Further, note how limited the Archons are. They never seem to be doing different things. They may not have any specialization, like Wanda and Sizemore. They can do Thinkamancy, some form of damage spell (Shockamancy?), Foolamancy... but they all seem completely interchangable. If they are, in fact, all the same with no specialized individual magic, then they are hit hard by the RPS equation. Whatever they are vulnerable to, they are all vulnerable to, and so anyone interested in defeating Charlie merely needs to stock up on that one type of unit.

Quite a potent force those archons are, wouldn't you agree?

All forces are potent in the correct circumstances. Look at the battle of Hastings. The English were winning. They held the ridge against Norman cavalry that couldn't get a head of steam climbing up the hill, so they were tired and their lances ineffective. The English lost when they broke from the ridge to charge retreating cavalry, putting themselves on flat ground, where the horses could kick into gear and the lances go to work. So, who was more powerful? The infantry that easily held off cavalry, or the cavalry that easily annihilated infantry. All units have strengths and weaknesses. That we haven't been shown Archon weakness does not imply the lack of weakness.

Actually, we do not know this at all. We know that he is offering his archons to the sides in "the great western conflict", and that's about it.

We know he isn't, because the RCC is hiring him. He's non-Royal. If he gave evidence of ambition, he'd be next on the chopping block, and not invited to the party.

We do know that he'd love to get the mathamancy artifact Parson has, Parson himself, and it's easily presumable that he would like the Archenpliers as well

Parson and the artefact, yes. Pliers, no. Grabbing the pliers might make him a target for power grabbing, especially grabbing something owned by a Royal. A single non-Royal with two Arkentools? They're beating on Stanley because he was just trying to get a second one. Actually getting it? Suicide, and Charlie knows it.

Plenty of ambitions shown in the strip.

Greed, yes. Coveting another's items, yes. We're talking about coveting power when we're talking about ambition... The ambition to increase your place in the world, not just make more cash. The Royals don't stop non-Royals from getting rich, only from becoming too powerful. Like I said, the examples were grabbing terrain, murdering enemies... the sort of power that leads to increased power of the world, not wealth.

For the same reasons I gave above. Charlie has too much potency to be a credible antagonist.

Suspected potency. Unproven potency. Based on hints and clues that have multiple interpretations. The denizens of Erfworld aren't worried, and if they were, they are known to gang up and beat up on people like Charlie. That's the best evidence against you. You're trying to suggest Charlie is more powerful than Stanley. If so, why are the RCC not attacking Charlescomm? He's the greater threat, in your mind. They know what Archons can do, and they were there to see the teleport, if it happened. They know how Charlie treats his neighbours. They have all the information you have and more. They aren't afraid. So, sorry, but you're wrong, fundamentally, on this one. Whatever information you don't have defeats you, because if it didn't, this story would not be being written. Parson would have been summoned by Charlie instead.

4) Teleportation counts as Move (they had none since they ended turn)
5) Teleportation costs some amount of Move.
7) They can only teleport at the start of a turn.
8) They can only teleport on their turn.
X) Many others.

All of which require you to come up with rules that the author never presented. Each one complicates the system, and we know that Rob has told us it is a simple system. I have to reject them as overly complicated... they all involve teleportation requiring an exception to normal spell rules, and that I am not willing to entertain.

For 6, well, you might remember I brought that one up first. If the Archons do not have that power, and it stems from the Arkendish, then the units are not that poweful in the first place, capable only of flight. They might do deep strikes, but they would be sacrificial units, and casters are not cheap, or everyone would have many of them. They are vulnerable when attacked, like any other unit.

Look, I never said that teleportation is not possible. I'm only saying that it is not certain, and not enough to be used as evidence of anything else. They might teleport, but that's not enough to demonstrate Charlie's obvious superiority. You simply can't be correct, because the story would be fundamentally different if you were.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Rock, Paper, Scissors. Are any of them more powerful than the other? Rock is clearly superior to Scissors, so it is clearly the most powerful. Therefore, always choose rock.

The fallacy of your argument for Archon ability is equivalent to that I just made. And it falls apart for the same reason.

Oh, does it? Please demonstrate this by citing scenes from the comic. Because it looks to me as though you are simply assuming that the archons have some kind of a foil, where one has never been shown.

One archon died when "most" of the GK air defenses were fired off. Not a balancing force, or a repeatable one. Maybe one archon was shown to have died due to the scroll use by Maggie and/or the remaining air defenses. And lava doesn't count as an archon foil as it appears as though all units not holding Archenpliers are equally vulnerable to lava, and "happen to be out of move over an extinct volcano while a trimancer group of Think-Dirt-Croakamancer awaken it" isn't a very repeatable event either.

One Archon can easily be worth 50 infantry. But are tehy worth more than 50 Archers? Those archers are going to be firing back, and one thing we've never seen are any abilties that would make them invulnerable to arrows. Archers, in turn, are vulnerable to infantry... if that infantry can get in close. So there you have an RPS, or a possible one.

Maybe, but you're guessing again. We have no scenes from the comic to support that guess of yours. What we do know for fact is that 30ish archons are able to fight all of the remaining GK forces, which include 3 potent casters, Parson, and a good number of troops and defenses, and win in a single turn.

I could do the same as you with the dwagons.

You could try, but I'd ask you to list the shown dwagon abilities. That list is far smaller than the shown archon abilities, even if you refuse to allow teleportation on the archons list.

It is entirely reasonable for a flying unit to cross terrain it takes ground units days or weeks to cross.

You miss the point. It's reasonable for a flying unit to be faster than a land unit, sure. This is due to the fact that flying units are typically made to be like a non-fantasy air force: Fast by virtue of flight. It isn't really necessary to have them be fast, but it's a common theme. Flight brings other advantages that come without needing to add on faster movement. The ability to move across or stop over water. Over water you are immune to attack. The ability to move over woods. Over woods you can only be attacked by woods units or archers. The ability to only be attacked over all other terrain types by archers. The ability to freely cross city walls, while ground units have to break through. There may be others. These abilities are all potent in their own right, and come along with the ability to fly. So faster move isn't needed for flight to be already quite potent. But now, if that flying unit can also hurl bolts of power, detect spells automatically, relay battle information instantaneously, help other units break out of spells cast upon them with a pep talk, teleport, etc, etc... Then it's not just a matter of flight, it's the whole package.

Further, note how limited the Archons are.

I do not note this, at all. Quite the contrary, in fact.

They never seem to be doing different things. They may not have any specialization, like Wanda and Sizemore. They can do Thinkamancy, some form of damage spell (Shockamancy?), Foolamancy... but they all seem completely interchangable. If they are, in fact, all the same with no specialized individual magic, then they are hit hard by the RPS equation. Whatever they are vulnerable to, they are all vulnerable to, and so anyone interested in defeating Charlie merely needs to stock up on that one type of unit.

You are again assuming that they are vulnerable to something. And you're making a lot out of the fact that they appear to be uniform, when that is both not shown, as we do not see all archons with nets, or all archons relaying battlefield images, and Maggie says she isn't sure how many archons can stand in as replacements for the DDR and not that they all can, and it's pretty much irrelevant in any case. A large group of the same kind of tank is a potent force, no matter that they all have the same main gun.

All forces are potent in the correct circumstances.

Sure. But please point out a demonstration that archons are not potent in all circumstances. They always had the power needed at the time. You need to go make your boss some money from one of the sides in the great western conflict? We'll just teleport there / show up immediately if you prefer. The Warlord you're escorting is under a spell? We'll detect it, discuss it, and then pep talk her out from under it's influence! You're about to attack some dwagons? Well, we'll just hurl some bolts of power and kill them without any losses (yes, we had a hand with this one). A Warlord you're escorting is convinced her lover is under a spell? We know that this is not true and can advise her of this, with no apparent effort spent. Your boss is considering taking out the best fortified city in the world in a single turn? We'll teleport in / show up immediately if you prefer and in enough numbers to pull it off as certified by mathamancy. Your boss wants to capture a smart Warlord? We'll unlimber our nets. A potential ally is willing to accept your boss's terms, but he wants more than was previously discussed? We'll just present a magical contract for the ally to sign. Your new ally needs a hand? We've got a just in time solution to his woes, killing the entire GK air force and almost killing the GK croakamancer. His non-dance fighting troops are getting killed against dance fighting uncroaked? We'll just send down some DDR moves and automagically give thousands of troops who can not dance fight the ability to dance fight. Oh, and we can dace fight ourselves, although this ability isn't ever used because we're so potent in combat that we don't bother to stack that bonus.

And I'm pretty sure I haven't listed all of their abilities, because the list is quite long and it's easy to miss something.

That we haven't been shown Archon weakness does not imply the lack of weakness.

True, but if you're going to use the things we're shown in the strip as your basis, we've been shown no such weakness, and so based on what we've seen there is no such weakness. If you're not using the strip as your basis, then you're just guessing or hoping.

We know he isn't, because the RCC is hiring him. He's non-Royal. If he gave evidence of ambition, he'd be next on the chopping block, and not invited to the party.

Another guess. The RCC is in the area of "the great western conflict", it's not at all certain that Charlie is in any way known to them other than via his contract offers. It's hard to put someone on the "chopping block" when you only see the troops he hires out to you.

Parson and the artefact, yes. Pliers, no. Grabbing the pliers might make him a target for power grabbing, especially grabbing something owned by a Royal. A single non-Royal with two Arkentools? They're beating on Stanley because he was just trying to get a second one. Actually getting it? Suicide, and Charlie knows it.

Charlie has already been seen saying that he'd like to grab Parson's mathamancy artifact before the RCC can get their hands on it. And Charlie already has an attuned Archentool. Why would you think that having the Archenpliers would change anything for Charlie, other than to make him more powerful?
And the RCC isn't beating on Stanley at all because of the Archenhammer or his quest to get more Archentools. The sole reasons we've seen for the conflict is this: Royals like to gang up on non-royals.
Stanley wiped out Milquetoast, killed a few Jetstone field units, and Ansom thinks he is a regicide. But the bottom line is of the issue, as shown in the conversation between Vinny and Ansom, is that Stanley is not noble.

The Royals don't stop non-Royals from getting rich, only from becoming too powerful.

It is not stated anywhere that non-royals are allowed to get wealthy, but are not allowed to form large sides or become powerful. Wealth is a form of power, after all.

The denizens of Erfworld aren't worried, and if they were, they are known to gang up and beat up on people like Charlie. That's the best evidence against you. You're trying to suggest Charlie is more powerful than Stanley. If so, why are the RCC not attacking Charlescomm? He's the greater threat, in your mind.

Proximity. Knowledge. They are both not near Charlie, and may not know where he is at all. This is supported by the strip. Not explicitly, but there is support for it. There is no support for any theory that any of the RCC or GK know where Charlie is or that he is close enough for them to bother sending troops his way.

All of [the additional reasons the archons couldn't teleport away from GK during the eruption] which require you to come up with rules that the author never presented.

Which is no different than your own possibility 2, and possibility 1 assumes that the archons are actually casters and don't just use natural whateveramancy to power their abilities. We never see them land, so it's also an assumption that they ever are unable to perform any of their abilities at any time.

If the Archons do not have that power, and it stems from the Arkendish, then the units are not that poweful in the first place, capable only of flight.

I've also brought it up previously, and said that it is functionally the same, as it changes nothing in the factoring of Charlie being able to take GK in a single turn. All it implies is that he has to have his archons fly back overland, which may or may not be too big of a deal to him. We do know that Charlie wasn't interested in taking GK for the city, all he cared about was the mathamancy artifact, and possibly Parson if that could be arranged. And "capable only of flight" leaves out a whole host of demonstrated archon abilities...

They might do deep strikes, but they would be sacrificial units, and casters are not cheap, or everyone would have many of them. They are vulnerable when attacked, like any other unit.

Vulnerable, how, exactly? Vulnerable behind the walls of a city that it takes 5+ turns for an army to array itself against? Vulnerable when they have the option to fly off during any turn? That is not a vulnerability by a long stretch. Note that when Parson told Charlie that the RCC would just take GK right after Charlie took it, Charlie said "they can have it!" He wasn't worried about his archins being stuck there and being killed by the RCC forces, they clearly had enough move to take GK, collect the mathamancy artifact and perhaps Parson, and fly or teleport to safety.

You simply can't be correct [that the archons teleport or can be teleported by Charlie], because the story would be fundamentally different if you were.

That is your presumption, but you're assuming much that is simply not known. Maybe we'll find out.