GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Winterwind]

And reminder again: Tomorrow's our next custom map session. I hope you all come.

I'm not sure yet whether I will be able to participate; I'm down with what seems like the mother of all colds, and if it gets any worse, I doubt I'll be capable of doing anything but lying in bed; if it gets decidedly better, on the other hand, I'm going to visit my parents over the weekend (it's Mother Day here this Sunday), and won't be able to play either.

If it stays just like it is right now (which actually seems quite likely, as it hasn't been changing much the last few days, and I doubt I'll miraculously get better tomorrow), however, I shall definitely be there.

[Winterwind]

Sheesh, the second triple post in two weeks? C'mon, people, surely you have something to say/ask/whatever!

Anyhow, reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you there.

[Legoshrimp]

Hmm I'm thinking of playing 5 wc3 games (also thinking of mirroring this with sc1 on the sc thread) and will upload them, and then you guys would need to critique them as you see fit. For two reasons one so I can get a better idea of my failings in wc3, and maybe more importantly. So winter doesn't have to make a hex-post
Edit: So any ideas on if I should do this? Maybe get other people to do it as well, so that we have something to talk about in here.

[Winterwind]

Sounds like a great idea to me (also because I love giving advice on WC3 to others).

I've been thinking about writing up a guide for WC3 melee anyhow; maybe I shall use this as additional motivation for myself to actually do so.

[Legoshrimp]

I've been thinking about writing up a guide for WC3 melee anyhow; maybe I shall use this as additional motivation for myself to actually do so.

I have a feeling we have done this before...

And thanks winter, I'll work on getting those games when I get home in 6 hours
Hmm I have started doing this. That when I use a smiley on the boards I don't normally put an endpoint if it is a period. Does this make sense?

Edit, The Second(or the first. I thought I had already edited this, but I think its that I had done it right after posting so I thought there would be very little chance of people reading it before I made any changes >.>): So where should I upload the replays to?

[Rigel Cyrosea]

What you're doing sounds fun, Lego. Maybe I'll give it a try too. I could definitely use some help when it comes to WC3.

I think I'll just do them all with one race, though. I'll learn more than way.
1 HU, 2 NE, 3 UD, 4 OR
[roll]1d4[/roll]

EDIT: Damnit. It seems I've forgotten how to use the dice roller. XD

[The Orange Zergling]

EDIT: Damnit. It seems I've forgotten how to use the dice roller. XD

I believe you can only use the roller in the PbP forums.

Anyway, I can try to help you both out too if you like, though WW will likely dispense more or better advice than I.

[Legoshrimp]

I believe you can only use the roller in the PbP forums.

Anyway, I can try to help you both out too if you like, though WW will likely dispense more or better advice than I.

Well a part of the reason I want to do this is to promote discussion in the thread. So Having as many people who can/want to review them is the goal. I mean even if they probably can't give good as good advice as someone else. They will at least have seen the games and be able to understand what other people are saying about the games. So I'll watch Rigel's games of course and post some comments, just my comments should probably be taken less seriously then winters or yours.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

Maybe we should just play a Bo5 against eachother, eh Lego?
We're fairly close in skill, IIRC. I think I won last time we played a 1v1, but you're always outplaying me in team games.

[Legoshrimp]

That would be a fun thing to do. Will you be able to be on at around 19:00-20:00 your time?

Edit maybe 21:00 it will probably be closer to 20:00 though, but it could end up taking a while.

Edit2: And you EST right? Maybe I should just say things in my time zone and say what that is. It would be way simpler

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I can be on pretty much any time tonight. I'd prefer not to be up till midnight, though (just cause I have to get up early tomorrow).

I'll check in around 20:00 EST?

[Legoshrimp]

Yeah I should be back by then. Maybe if your on xfire it will be easier to get you when I get home. Also any of you use steam? For when I get my new computer sorted out I'll start being on it constantly probably.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I'll put xfire on, then. Also, I use steam. Haven't been playing valve stuff a lot recently, but steam is generally running in the background anyway.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

So Lego and I played our Bo5. I randomed the first game and got Undead, and then stuck with that for the other two games.

We were having some lag issues, so we ended up only playing three games.

Game 1
Game 2
Game 2

[Legoshrimp]

Sorry for all of the cringing that I will cause those who watch them. I really don't know why I did so bad.

Here is a ladder game I played and did fairly well in.

Why I couldn't have done that good in the games against Rigel, I don't know. >.> Although I did change how I was sitting to something that is probably a lot better.

[Winterwind]

I'm at my parents currently, where I have no WC3-capable computer (my old desktop couldn't handle it; my laptop could, but for some reason I never was able to figure out it keeps crashing WC3 all the time), so I'll watch those when I'm back home (i.e., on Sunday). Expect exhaustive commentary then.

Also, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. For the above mentioned reason I won't be able to participate, but lots of fun, all of you.

[The Orange Zergling]

I'll try to get around to watching those replays and giving advice either tonight or tomorrow afternoon, Lego and RC.

[u-gotNOgame]

Hey, just thought I'd let you know that I won't be there tonight. I'll be in the city at a concert, have fun.

-UGNG

[Rigel Cyrosea]

Finally finished up some unfinished bits with my map. Added tooltips for the speed race and fixed randoming so that it's actually random and not twice as likely to give speed as the other two.

I still haven't actually seen a non-mirror game with speed in it yet. I'm curious how it'll work out.

[The Orange Zergling]

Good to hear, RC.

---

Okay, so I watched the first game of yours, RC and Lego, and I've compiled a list of everything I was noticed or was able to identify that you could improve on.

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Lego: Start your first buildings earlier. RC's structures were about 1/3 done by the time you started building anything. One should start their buildings the instant the game starts; when I go Human I generally send three Peasants to the gold mine and then simultaneously build a Barracks and Altar.
RC: Your Ziggurat placement was... odd. You had a couple that were placed well, but generally you should place them either to barricade your Acolytes from melee attackers or you should place them so that they are shielded by other, hardier buildings. You just sort of built them in a big line protruding from your base, they're too exposed that way and can be taken down more easily than if you had used other buildings to shield them.
Both of you: Get potions and TP scrolls on your heroes! I cannot stress this enough; buying a health and mana potion for all of your heroes increases their life span and effectiveness by a very, very large margin. And TP scrolls are, well, TP scrolls. Never attack without one and try to never get caught on defense without one. Putting a mana potion on an Archmage is perhaps not quite as important due to Brilliance Aura and the fact that their skills are not exactly spammable but if you have excess gold it may still be a good idea.
Lego: You built a Lumber Mill far too late; not only would it increase your lumber gathering efficiency by reducing travel time and with the gathering upgrade but it also increases the durability of your structures. A lot. I think that the structure health upgrade is not optional.
RC: Do not tank with your Death Knight. I know it's hard because he's a melee Strength hero but his role is a healer/supporter, not a tank. The reason for this is that you can cast Death Coil on your units but not the DK himself and his damage output is not that good anyway. It's okay to let him get into melee sometimes, but only if he is not the one absorbing most of the damage. If the opposing player starts focusing him down, pop an invulnerability potion if you have one or just run him behind your troops. Also, do not use the DK to scout! He is your most valuable unit and is most definitely not expendable, so don't have him half a screen in front of the rest of your army; Lego could very easily have Storm Bolted, surrounded and killed him that way. And there would have been nothing you could have done about it because, once more, you had no potions or TP scroll on him.
Both of you: You both had moments where you unnecessarily used TPs and you could either have simply run away or won the battle anyway. Be sure that a TP is necessary before using it.
Lego: Very strange wall you had going there. I thought it was excessively big; generally I use my structures to form a shield around my towers and/or my Town Hall, but the way you did it they could have just gone around it and surrounded and killed anything behind it. And this brings me to my next point; build towers! You had a couple at your expo, but you always want to build some at your main too. I generally get 1 Arcane and 2 Guard; make sure that it is very difficult for melee units to get in range of them, I sandwich the towers between my Town Hall and Farms, personally. And keep in mind that Arcane Towers can use what is basically Far Sight once you research Magic Sentry. It has a long cooldown, but it's worth it.
RC: Get your Lich when you hit T2! Get a Lich instead of other units at this stage if you have to, it is a great hero and a truly powerful addition to your army due to Frost Nova alone, not to mention putting an Orb of Corruption on it (which you did do). In addition, I also get 2 Slaughterhouses at T2 because I like to be able to replace my Statue/Abomination losses quickly. It also lets you research and produce at the same time. Which brings me to my next point; you needed Abominations far earlier as they are a perfect counter to Spellbreakers and they do well against Riflemen too.
Lego: When RC tried to Haunt your gold mine, you did not kill the Acolyte. This is pretty minor but still worth pointing out.
RC: Haunting mines as a method of delaying or harassment is not as effective as stealing gas is in SC2 and especially not that late in the game.

And the rest of these are for RC so I'll stop listing names now.

You left a Tome of Intelligence behind at the Marketplace. Always always always pick Tomes up, there is never a point or situation in which it is ever a good idea to not pick them up.

Research Burrow sooner. I do it as soon as I queue up my Lich at T2. Not only does it allow for rapid, mass healing after battles but it can also save Fiends from death in the middle of battles by burrowing near-dead ones. Also get Web even if you have no reason to suspect air units.

You could improve your focus-firing somewhat; have your Fiends target casters or Water Elementals and your Abominations target the Spellbreakers, Riflemen and heroes as all of your units do optimal damage that way.

I would have gotten Statues earlier, myself. Their healing and mana regeneration helps by a surprising amount and they can always become Destroyers if the situation demands.

I think that's about it. Hope this helps either or both of you.

[Winterwind]

Without having yet seen the games, all I can say is that everything Bane writes up there is 100% correct.

Reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. I look forward to seeing you all there.

[Winterwind]

My apologies I haven't gotten to comment the games yet; the last evenings all were kinda chaotic, for various reasons. And today's not going to be better. I'll try to get it done tomorrow before the session though.

Which brings me to the other point: Reminder - tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

[Inhuman Bot]

So. Bane. Can I download your maps from you again? My dad wiped my computer, and I lost everything, including schoolwork and years of WC maps.

[The Orange Zergling]

Alright, here you go. Those are just the more recent ones that we've played in the last few months, if you want the older (like, way older) maps too just give a shout.

If for some reason you can't download those from Rapidshare I can hop on Battle.net tomorrow-afternoonish and manually give them to you.

[742]

wth? you interrupted winter's streak! only two consecutive posts and its all your fault! come on; lets go for five in a row starting with his announcement tomorrow. im sure he can do it if we help!

count at last check: 1

[Winterwind]

Erm, no, that's fine, Eve, really...

Incidentally, melee session tomorrow. Hope to see you all there.

Also, will definitely write up comments to RC's and Lego's games by then. Promised!

___

EDIT: Or at least the first one of them. I have to watch each of these games twice, after all.

So, the first one (on Echo Isles):
Lego:

Spoiler

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- kinda slow start. RC's crypt was half-way done when your altar just started.
- going for him early when not knowing what he is is a good idea, engaging after seeing he's an UD might be less so. Even with your mighty Water Elementals, you are unlikely to make many kills with a Death Knight around before you have a decidedly higher damage output (i.e., more footies), and having Defend would be fairly crucial, too, so I'd just disengage and go creep until then (which an AM can do excellently). Early fights are not what you want in this match-up.
- But on the other hand, if you have already managed to almost kill two or three fiends, it might be a good idea to follow him and finish them off. You do not risk much - your AM was still at full health, and he's just as fast as the Death Knight, so you can easily retreat if it doesn't work out, and every fiend killed is a major victory for you.
- When you are at an UD base, and the owner isn't there, go for the accolytes. Killing a few accos and then TPing out is still a net win for you.
- Nice map control. You kept checking whether he was not expanding and where he was with admirable frequency. Nicely done.
- However, if you don't find him, and you discover his major creep spots (like his mine) are still uncreeped, it might be worth it to just creep them yourself. You are already there, and creeps you creep are creeps he cannot creep.
- Doubly so if you are so close to level 3 (only 130 experience points missing at that point) - there is a fairly major difference between level 1 and level 2 Water Elementals, so when you see you are close to the next uneven level, try hard to get this bit of experience. That will make you that much stronger when you actually encounter the opponent.
- Disengage more early from a losing battle - at that fight at RC's base, where your first spellbreakers died, he simply had too many fiends - you should have seen his force was superior and retreated more early before losing so much.
- When he chased you and you fought close to your base, where you forced his DK to TP out and only his fiends remained, you didn't have to TP yourself. You were low on health, but nowhere near to actually dying - you could have just run with your AM, that way your troops would have continued beating up the fiends and you would have saved 350 gold.
- Really, really nice map control. Nothing to improve there.
- But seriously, stop once in a while and fight the creeps at the locations you check, too!
- Didn't you notice his Death Knight before engaging the creeps at your mine? That creep jack was avoidable.
- You forgot your TP scroll, but you noticed that yourself.
- Rings of protection should go on melee heroes.
- Fight in tower range. That fight at your expo could have gone far more smoothly if you had retreated a bit closer to them.

RC:

Spoiler

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- Flawless build order. Finally someone who gets it right!
- Minor, but noticeable optimisation advice: Move your lumber ghouls to the trees right next to your graveyard when it finished building. That will boost your lumber gathering by a small amount, but that small amount is enough to allow you to start T2 earlier by a surprisingly large amount of time.
- When you go to creep, summon skeletons at your graveyard. That way, you already have two disposable tanks when you start creeping and don't have to wait for the first corpse...
- ...which you didn't even take advantage of. Seriously, use this rod of necromancy - it's what allows Undead to creep with ruthless efficiency without any major investment of resources (like DK mana and health).
- While you are upgrading to T2, get two more lumber ghouls. Personally, my build order for supply-numbers in the 20ies is:

Spoiler

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20: Third fiend
23: Start T2 upgrade
23: Fourth fiend
26: Third ghoul, to lumber
28: Third ziggurath
28: Fourth ghoul, to lumber
30: Since the ziggurath will not have finished by now yet, use this moment to start your first upgrade for your fiends.
30: Resume fiend production. Get another ziggurath, and keep upgrading.

- Gargoyles are pointless here. Firstly, they do practically no damage against Defending footmen. Secondly, Humans have a ton of methods to counter them, including the Water Elementals he already had.
- Instead, get a Lich and Burrow as soon as you hit T2. The Lich in particular is why you want to have T2 early.
- Upgrading your zigguraths to towers may have been a slight overreaction.
- Upgrade your fiends more.
- Check for enemy expos, especially in that match-up. Humans like to expand very early (and can pull it off, too). Lego didn't, but if he had, you'd have had a problem. About the time you hit T2 and have a Lich is when you should start checking.
- After the fight before Lego's base, you took a fairly long break. Yes, I'll grant you your Death Knight was pretty beaten up, but you should move out and creep nonetheless.
- I'd get one more production building. Personally, I usually go for two Slaughterhouses - it allows you to research destroyers while pumping statues, and to pump them quickly, and if you find you need Abominations (as, indeed, you did), you can amass them quickly, too, that way. If you need to replenish fiends quickly or intend to use gargoyles, two crypts make sense, too; in any case I find UD macro is far more effective if you have three unit production buildings, rather than two.
- Use one statue for Mana regeneration.
- Pull your Death Knight back in fights, he shouldn't take that much damage. Plus, always keep a healing and/or invulnerability potion on him. You were forced to TP out so often (and lost your DK once, even), which could have been avoided with a simple potion.
- Focus priests with fiends. Those are the first thing you should remove, and they take bonus damage from pierce.
- The mine-steal... yeah, that won't work. Firstly, he can take it down far too quickly at this stage, secondly, buildings take significantly increased damage in WC3 while they are being built.
- Attacking the main rather than the towered up expo was an excellent idea. Usually I say one should always go for expos, rather than mains, but in this case, it was exactly the right thing to do.

[Winterwind]

And reminder: Tomorrow's our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

The other Lego/RC games will be commented, too, but probably not before Saturday or Sunday.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

Thanks for the comments, WW. And Bane too, I just realized I never thanked you either.

I realized the mine steal was a stupid idea pretty much as soon as I did it, but it was fun either way.

[742]

only two in a row!? oh well.

in non-meta news: i might actually get there before 5 PM(GMT-8) this time!

[Legoshrimp]

Thanks for the comments, WW. And Bane too, I just realized I never thanked you either.

What he said.