Groundhog's Random Banter of Weather Prediction and Anti-Gopherness #120

[Mr. Mud]

To All about my poem that was considered 'plagiarized': I had to write a poem for some sort of literary magazine in which every student must put in one or two little drawing, and one or two poems... I had three poems in there, mainly because the third is was a haiku (Fairly small, and It looked nice where it was) that I wrote on the stop. The principal is trying to say I read it and then remember it subconsciously. Which I'm fairly sure I didn't, but then again it's subconsciously. . I wouldn't know if I did or not, thus it's not cheating? I think it's extreme serendipity and that's it, but the school of course won't be pleased, as my temper as esclated the entire problem..:

*riiiiiiiing.... riiiiiiing*
Me: Hello?
Principal: Hello, Joe? It's Mrs. [name]. I'm calling about your Odyssey poem... there appears to be a poem very much like your on the internet. I excepted as much from you...
Me: I'm flabbergasted. I wrote that poem myself... MR. [name] will attest to that...
Principal: Frankly, I don't care, we are going to forget this happened, but you are going to have to come in and clean the school Thursday and Friday all day.
[....]
Me: The only way I'll be in school Thursday and Friday is in handcuffs.
*click*

Bad idea, yes? .

[Cristo Meyers]

Plagarism is plagarism whether it was intentional or not according to the laws. Normally I'd say that whomever is accusing you of plagarism would actually have to prove did it, but then I remembered you're in High School where the burden of proof is determined by how much the parents complain

You're completely in the right to stand up for yourself, especially over something like this.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Could you perhaps demand information as to where the poem was supposedly cribbed from?

[Philistine]

I have a question for any and all musicians of any skill level:

Do key changes make you inexplicably happy? I've just listened to two songs with key changes in them, one a major song, the other a minor, and in both incidents, a quiet, usually timid voice in my head said, "Yay! Key change!" (In that colour. )

Happy really isn't the best word to use here, since this personified feeling exclaims its love of key changes even in the most depressing of songs written in minor keys.

...It's a key change. I must be crazy. And enjoying it, admittedly.

Key changes = good. Tempo changes = better (see: "The Lemon Song"). Time signature changes = best (see: "Money").

Who's crazy now, huh? Huh?

[Coidzor]

So the principal already had a vendetta against you?

[Mr. Mud]

Thanks for the support Cristo.

It just doesn't seem fair that, because I wrote a poem similar to one found on the internet, that is so vastly large, I don't have a metaphor to use here, I am a cheater. If it's not graded, and it's not going to change the outcome of the page either way, why should it matter if it resembles a poem that I unknowingly copied, and if I were to plagiarize, why would I do it here? Realistically, one might on a very large thesis or something, but a 3 line poem is just illogical. That doesn't mean however, I'm saying "I stead but it's different" Or "If I did cheat it doesn't matter". It does matter. But the logic behind their arguments is complete bogus.

And yes, Coid, it seems that way .

[Cristo Meyers]

The logic behind their arguments is "let's sweep this away because someone's complaining and won't shut up until we do something." I mean, they had to find out about the internet poem somehow. Once it's brought to their attention they have to do something about it.

[Coidzor]

Weird, you'd think you'd be a primary suspect in the case of who it was that ran over his cat or something to get an opening line like that....

Very odd and unprofessional calling you at your home and speaking to you like that. Rather suspicious on his part, even.

[Mr. Mud]

I agree, but they don't have to automatically assume I'm gulity when I have a spotless academic record... Save for a suspension a long time ago, but that has nothing to do with my character regarding plagiarism.

Let's say you wrote the poem:

The red duck swims near the pasture.

I wrote:

The blue duck floats through the meander, near the pasture.

I've never seen your poem before... and since they are both such simple concepts, would this be cheating or plagiarizing? I still put all the effort into writing my poem, and although it resembles yours, it was my concepts, in the ways it differs.

[Dirk Kris]

All I have to say on the matter is this: people who are in a position of authority or power and abuse it, in any way, are despicable. Principals, teachers, police, dictators, whatever. Believe it or not, there are only so many ways the words of the English language and be rearranged. The posibilities are NOT infinite. So, the likelihood of you writing something that is in some way similar to something else already out there is more likely than NOT. Also, agreed, the Internet is nearly boundless. You can find damn near anything on it - including something you want to make someone feel bad about. If it was a big deal, they would do something about it. It's clearly not, as instead they are trying to get you to come clean the school - I mean, come on. Really?

Stick to your guns, Mud. Defend yourself.

[Cristo Meyers]

I agree, but they don't have to automatically assume I'm gulity when I have a spotless academic record... Save for a suspension a long time ago, but that has nothing to do with my character regarding plagiarism.

Let's say you wrote the poem:

The red duck swims near the pasture.

I wrote:

The blue duck floats through the meander, near the pasture.

I've never seen your poem before... and since they are both such simple concepts, would this be cheating or plagiarizing? I still put all the effort into writing my poem, and although it resembles yours, it was my concepts, in the ways it differs.

Like I said before, you're well within your rights to demand that they actually prove you plagarised. They actually have to show what you copied, otherwise you're only taking ideas, which is sometimes in rather poor taste but isn't illegal. There's a reason that many colleges have a full-on trial system for determining if someone plagarised a paper. It is a hell of a lot more complicated than "hey, these two works are sorta similiar."

[Mr. Mud]

All I have to say on the matter is this: people who are in a position of authority or power and abuse it, in any way, are despicable. Principals, teachers, police, dictators, whatever. Believe it or not, there are only so many ways the words of the English language and be rearranged. The posibilities are NOT infinite. So, the likelihood of you writing something that is in some way similar to something else already out there is more likely than NOT. Also, agreed, the Internet is nearly boundless. You can find damn near anything on it - including something you want to make someone feel bad about. If it was a big deal, they would do something about it. It's clearly not, as instead they are trying to get you to come clean the school - I mean, come on. Really?

Stick to your guns, Mud. Defend yourself.

Hundred and Ten percent agreed. And if I DO go in in handcuffs, I'll be sure to where my Megadeth Tee shirt, which is a flaming skull surrounded in bullets... Or all of my black metal corpse paint and leather jacket with spikes .

But seriously, this is such an abuse of power, she should be reprimanded by people that can abuse THEIR powers on her (E.G. The school board). Hopefully, this ends peacefully.

Cristo: Agreed. I didn't even take the idea though, unless subconsciously, but even that I'm not really at fault because I still put all the effort into writing it. I didn't cut any corners, and I didn't falsify any records, or lie to anyone. I wrote a literary work that resembles another one that is actually published. So automatically I am at fault. .

I guess I shouldn't have said that on the phone to her though... While awesome, it created unnecessary conflict.

[Cristo Meyers]

I hate to come across as defending the administration when they're being lazy (and make no mistake, they're being lazy here), but it seems like they're already trying to keep it from becoming a big deal by essentially offering you a plea bargain. Considering how seriously schools normally take plagarism, think about what the punishment would be if you actually had done it. It's usually an auto-fail for the class at least.

Cristo: Agreed. I didn't even take the idea though, unless subconsciously, but even that I'm not really at fault because I still put all the effort into writing it. I didn't cut any corners, and I didn't falsify any records, or lie to anyone. I wrote a literary work that resembles another one that is actually published. So automatically I am at fault. .

I guess I shouldn't have said that on the phone to her though... While awesome, it created unnecessary conflict.

Which is why you're right to defend yourself against the accusation. They're wrong to assume guilt.

Who's actually complaining? Another student or a teacher?

[Dirk Kris]

True, Mr. Meyers. Very true. However, the opening bit of the conversation was something like, "I would expect this kind of thing from you." And if Mud is being honest and has a clean record, why would someone say that? It seems like, with that state of mind, there is or was something else going on. And people that...petty...might or might not purposely seek out something to gripe about. Gods know, I had a terrible ex. If I could have found ANYthing to make trouble for them, I can guarantee that I would have looked for it and made a big deal about it.

Then again, bitter Dirky is bitter and hateful. And irrational.

[Coidzor]

I'm rather curious about how this all came about myself. Since it seems a bit odd that she would read through the entire thing and decide to run a plagiarism check herself for every entry or even just every entry from Mr. Mud, especially since the compilation has nothing to do with the actual completion of a course.

Doesn't even have the excuse of looking out for the school's rep as a matter of course due to it not attempting to winnow out submissions.

So who's nagging her is just....

[Cristo Meyers]

True, Mr. Meyers. Very true. However, the opening bit of the conversation was something like, "I would expect this kind of thing from you." And if Mud is being honest and has a clean record, why would someone say that?

Because she's(?) a rude, obnoxious tart that is annoyed that she even has to deal with something this stupid?

It seems like, with that state of mind, there is or was something else going on. And people that...petty...might or might not purposely seek out something to gripe about.

If that were the case I'd bet she'd go for a hell of a lot more than "clean the school." Students get expelled for plagarism.

[Mr. Mud]

Nah you aren't coming across that way, and I see your point. I agree with it, and would have been super gracious to accept it if I did cheat...

Which is why you're right to defend yourself against the accusation. They're wrong to assume guilt.

Who's actually complaining? Another student or a teacher?

An older sibling, apparently, was like "Hey I see-ed that before!" and the parents phoned it in . But I have to get gonig the air condition man is here and I'll be back in 20.

[Cristo Meyers]

An older sibling, apparently, was like "Hey I see-ed that before!" and the parents phoned it in . But I have to get gonig the air condition man is here and I'll be back in 20.

Parents. Of course

I bet the administration is treating this a lot more like you are than you think. But we're dealing with a parental complaint, they can't just sweep it away. They either have to do a full investigation (which, to them, is a petty misuse of time and resources) or just come up with an arbitrary punishment and then say "there, we did something about it. Go away."

Unfortunately, they picked the wrong kind of issue to do this with. Plagarism is serious. Accusations of plagarism are serious. If you didn't do anything wrong (and I don't think you did) then stand up for yourself.

[Dirk Kris]

Because she's(?) a rude, obnoxious tart that is annoyed that she even has to deal with something this stupid?

If that were the case I'd bet she'd go for a hell of a lot more than "clean the school." Students get expelled for plagarism.

Exactly. Which is why I think it's just something personal and petty. Mud must have done something to upset her, pulled a prank or cut a class or something, and she's trying to get back at him. It's hard for me to imagine a sane, responsible adult acting this way.

If it were me and I really though something was plagarised, I'd be meeting with the teacher, researching the other article, meeting with the student and parents - there's a lot more that should go into it than "I don't like you and someone said they saw another similar haiku somewhere (come on - a HAIKU?!?!) so now I'm going to punish you because I don't have anything that can stand up to scrutiny". Ugh - I don't need to be this disgusted with the public education system this early in the morning.

She goes right up there on my list of people who should NOT be in charge of anyone. Ever. Gods, can you imagine if she were a prison warden? *shudder*

[Thanatos 51-50]

An older sibling, apparently, was like "Hey I see-ed that before!" and the parents phoned it in . But I have to get gonig the air condition man is here and I'll be back in 20.

Can said older sibiling direct anyone to the location of said haiku?
Seriously, I'd want to see some evidence from the accuser if I was being accused of plagarisim.

E-v-i-d-e-n-c-e

[Mauve Shirt]

*sigh* The internet provides many opportunities for teachers to accuse a student of plagiarism. I once got a bad grade because I "plagiarized" a clause from a sentence on a website I'd never been to.

[randman22222]

Mr. Mud, have you tried finding out who phoned it in? You really shouldn't give up on this. I'd try to offer more in terms of support, but I'm running on very minimal sleep.

Just letting you know that you're in the right, and you should NOT have to go into school cleaning or anything, especially as this was extracurricular.


EDIT: I'm still for key changes rather than time sig or tempo changes. Also, Robert Plant live is quite a thing to see.
EDIT2: Weird time sig stuff in Money. It seems to go one bar of 3/4 and then one of 4/4 for some time, then switches into 4/4 for a few bars. Confusing.

[Cristo Meyers]

Mr. Mud, have you tried finding out who phoned it in? You really shouldn't give up on this. I'd try to offer more in terms of support, but I'm running on very minimal sleep.

Just letting you know that you're in the right, and you should NOT have to go into school cleaning or anything, especially as this was extracurricular.

The problem is that it's still a school activity and thus has to follow the school rules/handbook/whatever. If someone had plagarised a paper for, say, the school chapter of 4-H or something they'd still have to answer to the school for it.

[Rawhide]

It'd be funny if the person you plagiarised from was yourself.

[randman22222]

The problem is that it's still a school activity and thus has to follow the school rules/handbook/whatever. If someone had plagarised a paper for, say, the school chapter of 4-H or something they'd still have to answer to the school for it.

Ah. He still didn't actually plagiarise anything. I hope.

[Mr. Mud]

Thanathos: There is evidence that there is a poem is on the internet that is related to mine, but there is zero evidence that I saw it. And it's not even word for word, although admittedly it does hinge around the same word and concept is similar.

Mauve: That sucks . Sort of what is happening here actually, becasue it's not even a full line They say I copied. Just parts of it. .

Cristo: Meh, my parents don't believe it's my work because they are so "similar". And I need them on my side on this... Gah, at least they can't be against me. Nobody knows what actually happened, sans for me, and my word is as good as any, since I don't have any breeches in character in my past... They just can't accept the coincidence. .

Dirk: I agree, she's as bad a principal as you can imagine... and She has no real reason to hate me other than my brother and cousin. (Both older than me). They let 3 pigs loose in the school as a senior prank, numbered "1, 3, and 4" and they were looking for "pig 2" for a week while the school was closed. Meanwhile my brother and cousin were at home, and the news didn't come out, until about 3 years later, that they did it. All blame goes to meeeeee ! (, worth it I suppose, but I mean STILL.)

Rand: See, they think I did though and there is no evidence that I did, except the likeness of both of them, and the only evidence on my side is my word. Which should be good in this case? But no one can really say what happened except me, but I'm being pushed away from this.

[randman22222]

Thanathos: There is evidence that there is a poem is on the internet that is related to mine, but there is zero evidence that I saw it. And it's not even word for word, although admittedly it does hinge around the same word and concept is similar.

Mauve: That sucks . Sort of what is happening here actually, becasue it's not even a full line They say I copied. Just parts of it. .

Cristo: Meh, my parents don't believe it's my work because they are so "similar". And I need them on my side on this... Gah, at least they can't be against me. Nobody knows what actually happened, sans for me, and my word is as good as any, since I don't have any breeches in character in my past... They just can't accept the coincidence. .

Dirk: I agree, she's as bad a principal as you can imagine... and She has no real reason to hate me other than my brother and cousin. (Both older than me). They let 3 pigs loose in the school as a senior prank, numbered "1, 3, and 4" and they were looking for "pig 2" for a week while the school was closed. Meanwhile my brother and cousin were at home, and the news didn't come out, until about 3 years later, that they did it. All blame goes to meeeeee ! (, worth it I suppose, but I mean STILL.)

Rand: See, they think I did though and there is no evidence that I did, except the likeness of both of them, and the only evidence on my side is my word. Which should be good in this case? But no one can really say what happened except me, but I'm being pushed away from this.

Is this school or university? If it's school, get your parents to throw a fit. Demand evidence. Get the teacher you talked to side with you. Make more noisee than...

Gah. I hate how school works. I'm going to have a nap.

[Quincunx]

Where is this magical happyland where people get expelled for plagiarism, because it certainly wasn't any school I ever set foot into.

Mrmud's case is not strong. A poem strikingly similar enough to be spied by a non-student can be justified as not drawing from the same pool of inspiration, but if it's one millimeter away from anonymous platitudes (and I would hope it would be, to be included in a magazine), defending it as coincidence to someone who isn't enmeshed in high school platitudes will be near-impossible. Perspective about high school, the underclassmen, and revenge plots thereof tends to snap into place five minutes after getting the diploma, so it's not terribly likely that this is delayed revenge. Your best defense is the shaming one of arguing that both poems were so hackneyed that anyone could've churned them out, and in this case, they did.

On the other hand, defending your reputation with your life (or with slamming down the phone on a principal) is excellent. Even I, who itch to drop the ban-hammer on a plagiarist, am given pause by that. Admit nothing.

[Mr. Mud]

Is this school or university? If it's school, get your parents to throw a fit. Demand evidence. Get the teacher you talked to side with you. Make more noisee than...

Gah. I hate how school works. I'm going to have a nap.

It's a regular High School, and my parents are throwing a fit. At me. Since I already have like zero trust from them (for reasons I'd not like to go into), they are sort of in the middle on this one... Not really against me, but still pissed enough to punish me to the best of their ability. Have a good nap, though; I might have one too . Filled with dreams of time signatures that are out of the norm.

[Cristo Meyers]

Where is this magical happyland where people get expelled for plagiarism, because it certainly wasn't any school I ever set foot into.

There are a few universities that can expel a student for plagarism. I only said it can happen, not that it probably would. No one's getting expelled for a first offense, but someone that's dumb enough to try repeatedly and get caught...