OOTS #658 - The Discussion Thread

[Charmy]

I'm rooting for Xykon on this one. He can't possibly let a little bird stop him or his rep as bad ass BBEG will suffer. Blackwing's assured demise is just a spell away (anything that denies a saving throw and doesn't require a touch attack would do).

[Dark Faun]

Looks like someone did take gingko biloba!

I loved Xykon's pickpocketing comment.

[jidasfire]

Are people really saying Blackwing betrayed V? Go read that comic again. V basically told Blackwing to stall a Death Knight while s/he escaped. A Death Knight. If someone who constantly mistreated and ignored you then ordered you to die so they could run away, would you do it? Especially if you were a bird and the opponent was a DEATH KNIGHT? V got what s/he deserved in that situation.

This time, however, I think V, with a newfound and growing sense of humility, will ask. And that, I expect, will make all the difference.

[Dark Faun]

I agree. To use an understatement, Vaarsuvius was not very nice to send him against a Death Knight.

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Maybe Blackwing will use his empathic link with V to tell her "I'm not doing it for you, you cowardly bully, but for the world!", causing V to angst even more.

[derfenrirwolv]

they never actually promised to wait until after he's dead to act on their option? V clearly assumes so, but they didn't say it. Won't V be surprised when he gets to the gate, and they call in their half of the bargain? That's what happens to people who think they can make "sensible" assumptions while bargaining with infernal beings.

Yup. The theory has been making the rounds since the original splice. Its why the fiends are so worried about the elf dying now.. they haven't been able to take him over to use him to control a gate.

[Simanos]

Your nerd rage would be tedious enough if you were an actual rules lawyer pointing at the actual fine print of a spell effect that is precisely defined in the official rules (god knows we have enough rule lawyers in these forums as it is)... but you've managed to achieve the astounding feat of being just as irritating as the most bombastic sort of rules lawyer preening over his technical correctness, WITHOUT the sole redeeming quality they usually have of at least being technically correct.

There is no fine print for you to HAVE a technically correct point about. All you have to work with is a vague assertion that the spell slots would be "replenished", whatever that means. And it deserves to be stressed that this vague description came from a TRIUMVIRATE OF INFERNAL BEINGS! When you're LITERALLY dealing with devils, don't be surprised if the devil is in the details.

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice that when the demons said that each of them would get custody of V's soul for a period of time, they never actually promised to wait until after he's dead to act on their option? V clearly assumes so, but they didn't say it. Won't V be surprised when he gets to the gate, and they call in their half of the bargain? That's what happens to people who think they can make "sensible" assumptions while bargaining with infernal beings.

You didn't deal with the real argument properly. JeptCloak is right on that bit I think. A minor plot hole.

[RMS Oceanic]

You didn't deal with the real argument properly. JeptCloak is right on that bit I think. A minor plot hole.

No he isn't, because the Giant came along on page 10, and explicitly told us that "Replenish = pick new spells".

V didn't prepare another fly spell. It may have been a poor tactical choice, and nobody on this forum would have done it, but that's what happened.

EDIT: The Word of God...

That being said, yes, it was my intention that when Vaarsuvius regained his spell slots, he chose whatever spells he wanted in them, since that's what always happens when a wizard regains spell slots: you choose your spells. That's why I said it replenished slots instead of replenished spells, because slots need to be then prepared. It doesn't take an hour to do so for the same reason V didn't need to rest for 8 hours, because it was Big Mojo Magic that breaks the rules. It wasn't explicitly shown because it never occurred to me that it mattered to anyone, and I already waste enough panels explaining things that aren't actually important to satisfy a certain subset of readers. I have to draw the line somewhere, and this is where I drew it.

[Wiffleboy]

For some reason I kept thinking to myself that the Snarl was going to play into this somehow. Hopefully V has something that can make Blackwing move quick enough to get to the Snarl before Xykon tries to blast it out of the sky.

[Dagren]

I'm rooting for Xykon on this one. He can't possibly let a little bird stop him or his rep as bad ass BBEG will suffer. Blackwing's assured demise is just a spell away (anything that denies a saving throw and doesn't require a touch attack would do).

Can you think of any? Pretty much every spell in existence allows one or the other, else the game would be totally unfair.

[The Blackbird]

Can you think of any? Pretty much every spell in existence allows one or the other, else the game would be totally unfair.

Magic Missile

[Faulty]

Holy crap, the bird!

[Charmy]

Can you think of any? Pretty much every spell in existence allows one or the other, else the game would be totally unfair.

As was stated a few times I think in this thread already, X could do something like Empowered Maximized Magic Missile, but I was thinking more Force Cage. (remember, its X's choice whether the cage is bars or solid walls, so flying through would not be an option).

Just about any Power Word would do as well (although Stun or Kill would be preferable)

[Zanaril]

So... how long will V's familiar Blackwing take getting to the rift? And how long will Xykon take to reach where V and O-chul are? Because they didn't seem to run that far.

[The MunchKING]

This is only marginally related to the prior argument (and I don't want to start that up again, of course) but I thought it was established way back in the beginning of the comic that V didn't *have* Flight. Obviously that didn't matter when spliced - I mean, V didn't have Teleport either, usually - but did that change that V got Flight for reals at some point and I didn't notice?

She got Overland Flight, cause that's what she used to leave the boat.

[Dagren]

As was stated a few times I think in this thread already, X could do something like Empowered Maximized Magic Missile, but I was thinking more Force Cage. (remember, its X's choice whether the cage is bars or solid walls, so flying through would not be an option).

Just about any Power Word would do as well (although Stun or Kill would be preferable)

True, there are a few. X really doesn't like his magic missile spell though, and the others are all very short range. Also, don't entrapment spells like Forcecage or wall of stone allow a reflex save?

[The MunchKING]

Another little detail I find interesting: V is yet again demonstrating his new-found ability to think outside the spellbook. He finds himself trying to escape a dangerous situation with someone else, a situation that could be escaped easily with the use of spells. He has no spells that could help. Back in Azure City, the fact of no longer having spells that could help itself made him completely freeze up in panic and be unable to even tell the soldiers to run because he couldn't help them.

That's because everyone willing to run away had DONE so already...

[Dr. Cthulwho]

So he throws the phylactery into the hole with the god-killing abomination (tm) and you think nothing will happen? seriously?

I think something will happen. I guess the theory behind nothing happening is that throwing something into the rift isn't the same as throwing something into the snarl itself. Will the snarl notice a tiny little thing dropping into its prison?

I'd think yes, but it isn't a certainty I guess.

Are people really saying Blackwing betrayed V? Go read that comic again. V basically told Blackwing to stall a Death Knight while s/he escaped. A Death Knight. If someone who constantly mistreated and ignored you then ordered you to die so they could run away, would you do it? Especially if you were a bird and the opponent was a DEATH KNIGHT? V got what s/he deserved in that situation.

I agree and I actually see a parallel. Blackwing chose retreat rather then face certain death, which V would also do a short time later.

Now V is growing some and going back to aid O-Chul... well, perhaps this is a growth moment for Blackwing as well.

For some reason I imagine an almost Independence Day like scene, the one where the old drunk flies into the glowy thing on the alien ship, destroying it and saving the day.

This time, however, I think V, with a newfound and growing sense of humility, will ask. And that, I expect, will make all the difference.

I agree. Blackwing just wants some recognition from V.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Well, the familiar can just take the phylactery, fly above the rift, and drop it. It's so huge he can't miss. Especially since birds have plenty of practice with 'aerial bombardment' anyway.

Destroying the phylactery won't kill Xykon -- but if he's killed while it's destroyed, he won't be able to regrow, and his soul will go skimming off to the Nine Hells like the 'losers' he was just berating.

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My theory is that if they get the phylactery into the rift, Xykon will flee. He won't want to risk combat without his phylactery, Redcloak is gone, his lieutenant (name forgotten) is dead, and Tsukiko is sleeping somewhere. He's got no help, no heals, and is able to be killed. He fled in the Azure City throne room in a similar situation, so I'm putting my money on him booking here.

That may be a signal for a general slave uprising and/or hobgoblin abandonment of the city. Or not.

I'm probably totally wrong, but heck, it's fun to speculate.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

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My theory is that if they get the phylactery into the rift, Xykon will flee. He won't want to risk combat without his phylactery, Redcloak is gone, his lieutenant (name forgotten) is dead, and Tsukiko is sleeping somewhere. He's got no help, no heals, and is able to be killed. He fled in the Azure City throne room in a similar situation, so I'm putting my money on him booking here.

That may be a signal for a general slave uprising and/or hobgoblin abandonment of the city. Or not.

I'm probably totally wrong, but heck, it's fun to speculate.

But what of the MitD?

Although if I was in that position I might not put my faith in the MitD either.

[DanReiv]

My money on phylactery successfully tossed into the rift but not destroyed as are hoping O'Chull and V.

The Snarl will wait for the destruction of Xykon's body and takes control of it's soul in order to free itself.

Ofc, that's just speculation :p

As for the fate of V and O'Chull, well I can't see how they can make it out of here in one piece...

I thought O'chull mount could flying type but then he would have summoned it to throw the phylactery and get the hell out of here...

Oh well, we'll see

[Lufia]

Sweet! I didn't believe the rift would play a role, like some people had predicted, but I love surprises!

By plot rules, Xykon's body is virtually indestructible now, what with his phylactery in danger. V and O-Chul are so dead.

[Elder Wraith]

BOOP! Piñata!

I thought that the giant had forgotten him.

(please note that when the raven got shot full of arrows in NCFPB V suggested Piñata as a name. I have always loved that.)

[BillyJimBoBob]

Facts: Raven base fly speed is 40 feet. Overland Flight fly speed is 40 feet. A raven familiar with a master of V's level has improved evasion and can share touch spells.

Xykon doesn't need to catch up with Blackwing, and he doesn't need to land a spell which can be evaded. Magic Missile is enough to kill Blackwing, and it is a 1st level spell which can not miss and has no saving throw. Assuming Xykon learned it (and I'm not going to go looking for a strip in which he cast it) he can cast it about 10 of them per day, and several others if he applies meta-magic. Which would be wise, since an empowered and maximized MM will certainly kill Blackwing, and a maximized MM has a very good chance of doing so. Blackwing has 1/2 Vs HP, and a maximized MM will do 25 damage. If V is 17th level he has on average and assuming no CON bonus 44 HP. MM also has a ridiculous range, so Xykon could get in as many shots as the range to the snarl allows. This is really not a win scenario for Blackwing unless Xykon can be prevented from casting spells at him.

V could easily buff the raven for a few rounds with any spells remaining before sending it off to the Rift.

Any time spent buffing is also extra time for Xykon to cast. Buffing would be a poor option, given that we know Xykon is easily able to dispel Vs spells.

The most important thing is that Xykon can't effectively deal with multiple targets at once unless he's specifically prepared to. He has to pick his battles, as we've seen repeatedly.

Actually, Xykon can deal with up to 5 targets at the same time using MM. It's quite possible that a single round of empowered maximized MM will kill both Blackwing and V, since V would take damage for losing his familiar.

Whether O-chul flees or not is another story, of course.

He has said clearly that he hadn't even considered that as an option.

Edit: Removed comments on the topic of plot hole or no plot hole, as I just got to the page where the Giant said "Cut it out, y'all."

[gamephil]

Xykon doesn't need to catch up with Blackwing, and he doesn't need to land a spell which can be evaded. Magic Missile is enough to kill Blackwing, and it is a 1st level spell which can not miss and has no saving throw.

I could be mistaken, but isn't it possible to also give your familiars a Target: Self spell, like Shield?

[Snake-Aes]

I could be mistaken, but isn't it possible to also give your familiars a Target: Self spell, like Shield?

It is, but spells like shield wear off if he goes away from V.

[Adeptus]

Maybe this will teach V to appreciate the loyal(?) companion!

[BillyJimBoBob]

I could be mistaken, but isn't it possible to also give your familiars a Target: Self spell, like Shield?

Yes. But that would take V a round to cast. And we know that in one round Xykon can dispel any spell V casts. So there's little point in buffing Blackwing, as I pointed out in the post you replied to.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Assuming Xykon learned it (and I'm not going to go looking for a strip in which he cast it) he can cast it about 10 of them per day, and several others if he applies meta-magic.

He's never seen without MM it seems. He broke it out during the first fight with the OotS, he used maximized MM on Soon after Redcloak told him to...

[Darkhands]

Wow. Just wow. You know, If it "unmakes" his soul, wouldn't all fundamental beings of Xykon also cease to exist? Being thrown in the snarl apparently didn't do much, but even if he doesn't un-not-live, I'm thinking it would wreck havoc with him. I kind of always thought of the soul being magically channeled into Xykon from the phylactery, and if it dies he wouldn't have control whatsover of his body... he'd just be more of an empty shell.

I think the Phylactery acts more like 'backup storage'... Should Xykon's body be destroyed, his soul reverts to the Phylactery and it begins to generate a new body for him. Should the Phylactery be destroyed though, his soul has no place to go should he be killed.

[Dalek Kommander]

You didn't deal with the real argument properly. JeptCloak is right on that bit I think. A minor plot hole.

He would need to have the exact wording of the non-existent fine print of the spell description to have a REAL argument that it's even a minor plot hole. As it is, he's just whining that the soul splice doesn't work the way he ASSUMED it worked, and the fault must lie in the GM for not doing what he assumed, rather than the fault being his for leaping to the wrong assumption.

That sort of whining is pathetic at the best of times, but it is infinitely more pathetic when you're whining that the rules of a power granted by an INFERNAL CONTRACT don't work the way you optimistically assumed they would.