MitD - What We Know

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I’m going to keep looking through the source books for something better, especially for something that needs to sleep after using a spell like or psionic ability like wish or stomp. It might be from an adventure... who knows. So far, I think this monster is by far the best match.

I find that psionic is extremelly unlikely, because of the following reasoning:

• Red Cloak knows what MitD is as of SoD
• Red Cloak didn't know if there where any psionics in the world as of 546.
• Consequently, MitD cannot have naturally occurring psionic abilities.

Hope that helps

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

I am required to point out that this is completely incorrect. Always is always :P

That's a fair comment if you take the dictionary definition of "Always". However if you instead take the definition of "Always" from Monster Manual (Page 305, in the Glossary, under "Alignment" in the 3.5 edition):

Alignment:
This line in a monster entry gives the alignment that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all monsters of that kind.
Always:The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are rare or exceptions.

I won't quote the entries for "usually" or "often", because they are not relevant.

So "Always" in Monster manual doesn't quite mean absolutely always, just nearly always. I guess it's up to the DM how closely each monster listed as "Always Neutral Evil" actually comes to the dictionary definition.

I personally think that it's more likely one of these could be swayed away from evil than a Pit Fiend or Balor.

Of course another popular theory of "Titan" would be a perfect alignment fit since it can be CG, CN or CE as listed in MM1.

Thank you for reading my post and your comment SadisticFishingm.

[lothos]

I find that psionic is extremelly unlikely, because of the following reasoning:

• Red Cloak knows what MitD is as of SoD
• Red Cloak didn't know if there where any psionics in the world as of 546.
• Consequently, MitD cannot have naturally occurring psionic abilities.

Hope that helps

Grey Wolf

Good point !
I was reading through MM4 on Gem Dragons, trying to see if they might fit. One of them had the Psionic STOMP ability, which seems a good fit in some ways, but lots of other things did not fit, so I gave up on them.

I don't think this absolutely proves it's not psionic, it's possible Rich just made an oversight. Given how well he seems to plan most stuff in this strip though, it's certainly more likely that your comment is another clue.

[Hurkyl]

[*]THe first option casts spells as an 18th level cleric (miracle). The second as an 18th level sorcerer (wish)

Strip #299 almost surely rules out your idea.

[SadisticFishing]

I disagree that Evil subtype less commonly swayed, but that's mostly irrelevant :P

What does #299 have to do with anything?

[Chameon]

That has got to be "fulfill another's wish" because Ochul didnt WANT to escape until now.

Somebody else might've brought this up, teleport other portion of wish needs a will throw or summat to ignore it if disliked, so it could've been spamming it and it not worked till that second (Just going by what read in forum, info could be wrong)

Edit: O-chul seems to have a decent will save, judging by his recent escape from the paralyzing touch, although I could be misreading the forums. Felt I needed to fully show my case.

[hamishspence]

Anything thats not got the Evil subtype can be swayed to Neutral or Good alignment using the Diplomacy skill, in BoED.

DM can choose how to render this, but the point is- its possible too change creatures. Or, they may choose to change themselves.

[OITS]

If you "know" what MitD is - just go somewhere and randomly ask 10 people, if the know it.

If:

8 or more know it: it is highly likely that you are right; he wouldn't waste one of the most important jokes of this comic just to satisfiy the 10 readers who have a specific sourcebook
5-7 who know it: probably the best place to fit in; people know it, but it's not too average
2-4 who know it: maybe a DnD insider - still possible, but I think Rich can do better than this
0-1 who know it: it won't be right; period. Line of argumentation - look above^^



I'll stick with the Sphinx - and I'll be right ;)

Oh, and most important: just remember he made this speculative to let us have more fun: don't make it unfunny because of fighting^^

[Droopy]

What does #299 have to do with anything?

Redcloak knows what MitD is and what he should be capable of, he says in #299 that MitD can't normally cast cleric spells at even a 5th level equivalent (animate dead presumably) never-mind 17th like corpse tearer and grey linnorm supposedly can.

It's a good catch, I couldn't think of anything to disprove anything about corpse tearer untill then.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's a good catch, I couldn't think of anything to disprove anything about corpse tearer untill then.

It is an excellent catch since it actually adds another point to the characteristics of MitD:

• Red Cloak knows what MitD is, and does not expect him to have the ability to cast any cleric spells. (#299)

By slight extrapolation, it also discards high-level wizardry, who would also have access to reanimation spells, right?

Grey Wolf

[Droopy]

Yeah good point about excluding wizardry too, seems like we're down to spell-like abilities then.

At which point, with only MM 1-3 I'm stumped.

[veti]

It is an excellent catch since it actually adds another point to the characteristics of MitD:

• Red Cloak knows what MitD is, and does not expect him to have the ability to cast any cleric spells. (#299)

So... we're still discounting the possibility that Redcloak may be just plain wrong, when he thinks he knows what MITD is?

We know that Xykon and Redcloak don't know as much about Monster-san as they both seem to think they do. It never occurs to them, for instance, that prolonged proximity to O-Chul might have 'turned' it. So they are, at the very least, under-estimating either its wisdom or its independence.

[SadisticFishing]

Oh whoops, duh, sorry. Was at work and didn't read the comic very thoroughly.

Darn probably not the one headed Linnorn then. That was a good try.

Unless he doesn't know exactly what Linnorns do, and just what they are :P

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So... we're still discounting the possibility that Redcloak may be just plain wrong, when he thinks he knows what MITD is?

We know that Xykon and Redcloak don't know as much about Monster-san as they both seem to think they do. It never occurs to them, for instance, that prolonged proximity to O-Chul might have 'turned' it. So they are, at the very least, under-estimating either its wisdom or its independence.

Yes, I think we can rely on Red Cloak with the basic MM info for MitD. This is a guy that knows Manganese elementals - he clearly knows the weirdest stuff. He is, indeed, a self-described geek.

Yes, both him and Xy have managed to underestimate MitD, but lets cut them some slack here. Until five or six comics ago, I was ready to believe that it was impossible to subestimate MitD at all. I am still skeptical about the escape having been caused by MitD, although I accept that the evidence is mounting (more due to lack of other possible caster than really believeing MitD was responsible).

Xykon, for one thing, started out expecting a lot more from MitD, then quickly lowered his expectations. I suppose that, if Red Cloak wasn't being completely sarcastical in 299 (only, say, 75%), MitD could conceivably gain cleric levels, and Red Cloak is just pointing out that he is unlikely to have done so. But I think it is a safe bet that whatever MitD is, he cannot gain those levels, and Red Cloak knows it.

Grey Wolf

[lothos]

Redcloak knows what MitD is and what he should be capable of, he says in #299 that MitD can't normally cast cleric spells at even a 5th level equivalent (animate dead presumably) never-mind 17th like corpse tearer and grey linnorm supposedly can.

It's a good catch, I couldn't think of anything to disprove anything about corpse tearer untill then.

Hmmm, yes, a very good catch. I didn't spot that.
Ok, that's definite evidence against a corpse Tearer. Very good call.
Still, it could be a Dread Lionnorm.... if it's some strange mutant with only 1 head :-) Ok, no, I'm not serious on that.

[Skorj]

Hmmm, yes, a very good catch. I didn't spot that.
Ok, that's definite evidence against a corpse Tearer. Very good call.
Still, it could be a Dread Lionnorm.... if it's some strange mutant with only 1 head :-) Ok, no, I'm not serious on that.

While the Corpse Tearer specifically might not have worked out on the details (plus I'd never heard of one), it really seem like the right kind of monster: something that Xy would both expect to be evil, and expect to be brutally effective in a fight. The high CHA is really a good selling point.

Can anyone enumerate powers or types of powers or creature type that has "needs to rest after using power" in the description? I saw in the forums that som divine powers had that limit (and a divine/mythological monster (or hero?) known outside of D&D would fit in many ways).

[Random832]

Can anyone enumerate powers or types of powers or creature type that has "needs to rest after using power" in the description? I saw in the forums that som divine powers had that limit (and a divine/mythological monster (or hero?) known outside of D&D would fit in many ways).

Salient Divine Abilities (Deities & Demigods): Alter Reality (but not apparently for these situations), Create Greater Object, Divine Creation, Life and Death.

[lothos]

While the Corpse Tearer specifically might not have worked out on the details (plus I'd never heard of one), it really seem like the right kind of monster: something that Xy would both expect to be evil, and expect to be brutally effective in a fight. The high CHA is really a good selling point.

Those are the same sort of thoughts I had when I found it in MM2. I think though that since we know MitD doesn’t have cleric capabilities it rules out the corpse tearer and I just don't think we can believe the MitD is a mutant Dread Linnorm with only 1 head.

Can anyone enumerate powers or types of powers or creature type that has "needs to rest after using power" in the description? I saw in the forums that som divine powers had that limit (and a divine/mythological monster (or hero?) known outside of D&D would fit in many ways).

I hadn't heard of a Corpse Tearer either until a couple of days ago. I've never actually played 3rd edition D&D, or even 2nd Edition. I used to DM 1st Edition and before that play old Basic D&D (The boxed sets). I just borrowed a friends copy of MM1 through MM5 for a few days.

I just looked in each book at the "Monsters by Challenge Rating" table. Then looked up everything with a CR of 20 of above to find things that Xykon might think are worthy of being in his league of scariness.

Sadly, so far I haven’t found any monster in any of MM1 -> MM5 with a CR of 20 or above that needs to sleep or rest after using some major powers. When I get hold of other source books, I'll keep looking.

I guess you could say "it's an infant XXXXXX, so it needs to rest after using it's powers". But you could also say "It's an infant corpse tearer, so doesn’t have all it's cleric powers yet, so it can't raise the dead". I don't really think that either of those are strong arguments.

Rather, given what was noted about strip 299 and the subsequent comments by Grey Wolf, with only a slight extrapolation we can say it probably does NOT have high level cleric capabilities and also doesn’t have high level Wizard Abilities. It COULD have sorcerer abilities and have wish, but just not have any necromantic spells known and thus be unable to animate the dead.

Damm... it's so close to fitting Dread Linnorm with it's 17 levels of Sorcerer (sorry, I said 18 in an earlier post and was wrong) and having wish. I just can't reconcile the 2 heads of the Dread Linnorm..... but if we ever see 4 eyes in the darkness, that will clinch it :-)

You know, I was thinking about it being a 1st Edition monster, or even something from Basic D&D, the boxed sets that pre-date 1st edition. If it were some iconic old-school monster, that might fit Rich's style. The main reason I discounted it was that back from Strip 55, we know that Dorukan created his talisman to corral all the old school monsters together. So if MitD was one of them, he should be in that horde, rather than n Xykon's throne room at that point.

So then I was thinking about something else. My gut says that Rich will have chosen something iconic to D&D for the MitD. I really doubt it will be goblin in the darkness or anything like that. The obvious candidate then is of course a dragon. I mean it's half the name of the game :-) So I got thinking, are there any dragons who have Wish or similar as a spell like ability. Of course, it could be a dragon with sorcerer levels. We have seen that quite recently. I have not found any dragons with listed spell like abilities including wish yet.

Another thing that's been going through my mind is that it might be something fairly mundane with BOTH a half-celestial and half-Fiend template applied. Now I know that Anti-Heroes already has a central character who is half fiend, half celestial... but Rich could have decided on MitD being that before Anti-Heroes started.

*IF* MitD is half fiend, half celestial, it could explain his ability to be swayed in alignment, it could explain spell like abilities like wish. I mean something like half Balor, half Solar... both have wish. (EDIT - Sorry, only Solars have wish).

There are 2 problems I see with this though. First, while you could argue this is in a source book (both templates are there), it's not really a monster that someone else made up (refer back to Rich's exact words). Second, though both the half celestial and half fiend templates have lots of spell like abilities, neither of them includes wish or anything similar.

I'll keep looking though MM1 to MM5 so long as I can keep borrowing them from my friend. I'll start looking at lower CR monsters tonight to see if any of them need to sleep or rest after using spell like abilities.

Cheers.

[Nerdanel]

A level 17 sorcerer can't cast Wish since they need to be level 18 to cast ninth level spells.

I don't know any monster that has Wish as a spell-like ability or otherwise that fits the profile of MitD. I don't think a Solar fits the evidence and neither does a Pit Fiend. (For just one example, would it be surprising if they spoke?)

I would like to know if there is a template out there that can give Wish like Half-Earth Elemental gives Earthquake. The standard Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend aren't powerful enough, topping at Resurrection and Destruction. Then there's divine ranks and Alter Reality, but the MitD isn't immune to mind-affecting effects like deities are.

[lothos]

OK, 2 things:


1. I have really tied myself up in knots about 17th/18th level cleric/sorcerer levels and I got it wrong twice. So I've got the book in front of me here and the correct levels are:

Dread Linnorm - 18th Level Sorcerer (not 17th as I said earlier) so it can cast wish, potentially. This is from P143 of 3.5 Edition Monster Manual 3.

Corpse Tearer - 17th Level Cleric (not 18th Level as I said earlier) so it can case Miracle, potentially. This is from P144 of 3.5 Edition Monster Manual 3.

Sorry about the confusion. I've been looking at so many monsters over the last few days trying to find one that fits our friend in the darkness perfectly.


2. I was wondering again if Rich might have picked a 1st Edition monster. So I got all my 1st Edition hardback books out of the loft this evening and read through 1st Edition Monster Manual, Monster Manual 2 and Fiend Folio. To the best of my knowledge these are the only 3 "core" source books that 1st edition had for monsters.

I only found 2 monsters that even vaguely fit. Neither is a very good fit. They are the "Agathion" and the "Shadow Dragon", both from 1st Edition Monster Manual 2. Neither mentions anything about sleeping after using powers, but they both have glowing eyes of some kind. The latter likes staying in the darkness. They both *can* have a teleport ability, but I think it just refers to themselves, not others. Neither has wish.

So I'm pretty sure it isn't a 1st Edition monster, not one I have listed in any of the books I have.

Does anyone have 2nd edition books and feels like doing a similar search ?

[Nerdanel]

At the current state of confusion I'm actually thinking that the MitD might not necessarily have Wish. It could have planeshifted V and O-chul to Celestia and the Twelve Gods redirected them to Azure Island.

I'm not saying I believe things happened that way, but we only have unlikely options here as far as I can see.

So, looking through the types, I think we can say MitD is...

- NOT a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Animal (adding enough templates to fit the evidence would change the type)
- NOT Construct
- NOT Elemental
- NOT Ooze
- NOT Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
- NOT Undead
- NOT Vermin

- maybe Aberration
- maybe Dragon (but only with templating or as a really unusual race, otherwise too recognizable as some type of dragon)
- maybe Fey
- maybe Giant
- maybe Humanoid (but probably not)
- maybe Magical Beast
- maybe Monstrous Humanoid
- maybe Outsider (probably Native Outsider, as they need to eat and sleep)

[Alair]

So then I was thinking about something else. My gut says that Rich will have chosen something iconic to D&D for the MitD. I really doubt it will be goblin in the darkness or anything like that. The obvious candidate then is of course a dragon. I mean it's half the name of the game :-) So I got thinking, are there any dragons who have Wish or similar as a spell like ability. Of course, it could be a dragon with sorcerer levels. We have seen that quite recently. I have not found any dragons with listed spell like abilities including wish yet.

The problem with a dragon though is that *everyone* knows what a dragon looks like. Even if it's some obscure variety we wouldn't have wizards staring at the MitD (prior to the D) and going "My god, I've never seen anything like it!" or whatever.

The Corpse Tearer was a good idea though I just can't picture the MitD with a full plethora of spell caster abilities that it's never used except for one high-level one now.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just can't picture the MitD with a full plethora of spell caster abilities that it's never used except for one high-level one now.

But we are going to run into that problem no matter what mitD turns out to be.Whether he has "escape" or "wish" or "portal" or "Deus ex Machina" as spell-like ability or whatever, we will have to face the fact that he's never used it except right now.

The only way around it is to discover that the teleportation had a different reason. For example, V's partner went to a wizard for whatever reason.

Grey Wolf

[Dagren]

1. I have really tied myself up in knots about 17th/18th level cleric/sorcerer levels and I got it wrong twice. So I've got the book in front of me here and the correct levels are:

Dread Linnorm - 18th Level Sorcerer (not 17th as I said earlier) so it can cast wish, potentially. This is from P143 of 3.5 Edition Monster Manual 3.

Corpse Tearer - 17th Level Cleric (not 18th Level as I said earlier) so it can case Miracle, potentially. This is from P144 of 3.5 Edition Monster Manual 3.

Sorry about the confusion. I've been looking at so many monsters over the last few days trying to find one that fits our friend in the darkness perfectly.

I would say sorcerer casting should be more likely than cleric casting, since it's spontaneous, I just can't see the MitD being a prepared caster, particularly since he didn't seem to realise he'd done anything.

[Rotipher]

Heh. At this point, it's starting to look like we've excluded EVERYTHING from consideration, up to and including half-Snarls, lesser deities, third-party monster-book critters, and Pokemon.

Rich told us it was "possible to guess". But has he ever said that it's possible to guess right? Maybe he was using Oracle-speak when he said that.

[Beorn080]

I just did some reading of the basic 3RD edition MM, and it can't possibly be a Pit Lord. Pit Lords have the SLA to animate dead at will, and Redcloak knows that the MitD can't animate dead. So thats another, more specific requirement

Is not expected to have the ability to animate dead.

Personally, I think it must be something from another universe. Rich said we would recognize it, and honestly, without cheating, how many of these suspected monsters would one recognize without a MM. I doubt its going to have templates, and I expect it to be recognizable to someone who never opened a monster manual. I think the line from the hunters actually meant that they never expected to find one of those here, meaning the OOTS universe.

[lothos]

But we are going to run into that problem no matter what mitD turns out to be.Whether he has "escape" or "wish" or "portal" or "Deus ex Machina" as spell-like ability or whatever, we will have to face the fact that he's never used it except right now.

The only way around it is to discover that the teleportation had a different reason. For example, V's partner went to a wizard for whatever reason.

Grey Wolf

This does lend credence to the idea that rather than levels in Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard/Favoured Soul or whatever, he has a spell like ability that's from his creature type/template/whatever, so we don't have to explain why he never used ANY of his lesser spells so far in a strip (apart from the possibility that it's a spell like ability he used to STOMP in strip 477 rather than just high strength).

Heh. At this point, it's starting to look like we've excluded EVERYTHING from consideration, up to and including half-Snarls, lesser deities, third-party monster-book critters, and Pokemon.

Rich told us it was "possible to guess". But has he ever said that it's possible to guess right? Maybe he was using Oracle-speak when he said that.

Now that's something I never thought of :-)
Kind of like someone running a casino and saying "Hey, get a certain combination of cards dealt to you and win $1m", but they don't point out that the combination involved 7 aces from a single pack of cards :-)

Personally, I think it must be something from another universe. Rich said we would recognize it, and honestly, without cheating, how many of these suspected monsters would one recognize without a MM. I doubt its going to have templates, and I expect it to be recognizable to someone who never opened a monster manual. I think the line from the hunters actually meant that they never expected to find one of those here, meaning the OOTS universe.

Vorlon or Shadow from Babylon 5 ? :-) I was joking when I suggested Vorlon earlier in this thread. The only thing it's really got going for either of these is that we know Rich admires Bablylon 5.

My gut says it is a D&D monster of some sort. There is a big audience overlap between OOTS and any of the following - Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Wars, Smallville, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Pokemon, almost any MMORPG and lots of other shows in the fantasy genre. But my opinion is that Rich would try to pick something from D&D (though not automatically 3.5 or 4th edition) so that the widest possible cross section of his audience has some chance to guess it.

The problem with a dragon though is that *everyone* knows what a dragon looks like. Even if it's some obscure variety we wouldn't have wizards staring at the MitD (prior to the D) and going "My god, I've never seen anything like it!" or whatever.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. It would have to be some dragon with about 6 templates applied to make it really obscure.

The Corpse Tearer was a good idea though [snip]

Thanks. I think though Hurkyl proved it's not a corpse tearer earlier in this thread because corpse tearers have 17 levels of cleric and could animate the dead, which MitD says he can't in strip 299, in fact he says he doesn't have 5 levels of cleric there.

The Dread Linnorm with 18 levels of sorcerer fits that better, but as Grey Wolf pointed out earlier in this thread, Dread Linnorms have 2 heads, so there should be 4 eyes in the darkness.

So maybe Rotipher is right, it's possible to guess, just not to guess correctly :-)

Maybe someone smarter than I am with more knowledge of 3.5 edition D&D can find the right creature or template combination that fits. I'm really stumped now. I've been looking though MM1 to MM5 at anything down to a CR of 15 and haven't found anything that's a better fit than a Dread Linnorm or Corpse Tearer.

[oxinabox]

Has anyone looked at the possiblity that MitD
Is a animated Object?
Something you could argue with the DM to alow you to play with it it has a negitive ECL.
Which you then bring up to 0 with templates.

Say a really bad painting?

Wish isn't required. it could very easily be another caster.
Have we even proven it couldn't have been a rebel wizard?

[lothos]

(snip)
Wish isn't required. it could very easily be another caster.
Have we even proven it couldn't have been a rebel wizard?

I guess it depends what level of proof you are after.

• Have we proved beyoned any doubt whatsoever that it was MitD responsible for V and O-Chul's escape ? I don't think so.
• Have we proved beyond reasonable doubt that it was MitD responsible for V and O-Chul's escape ? In my opinion, yes.

In my opinion, there are a lot of hints that it was MitD, enough to believe it was responsible. Others have listed them with more clarity that I can here. check out the posts by Skorj earlier in this thread.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This does lend credence to the idea that rather than levels in Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard/Favoured Soul or whatever, he has a spell like ability that's from his creature type/template/whatever, so we don't have to explain why he never used ANY of his lesser spells so far in a strip (apart from the possibility that it's a spell like ability he used to STOMP in strip 477 rather than just high strength).

I disagree. It is a problem even in that situation, because we have seen MitD wish for things before, and so if he really can cast wish as a SLA, we need to explain why it hasn't worked before. He could conceivably have gained levels that would allow new spells he hasn't used before, but SLA are inherent.

Besides, I thought we had already taken a look at everything capable of casting wish and had discarded them. Except, strangely, genie. I haven't seen them mentioned so far. I don't have any MM, but I would assume that a genie (or its evil counterpart, if one exists?) would at least be mentioned. I'm sure that they have their own set of problems (do they have parents?), but that didn't stop the tarrasque from being mentioned.

Grey Wolf