MitD - What We Know

[lothos]

Hey, I was thinking about "Thematically appropriate" choices for MitD.
It occured to me that some kind of Giant might be a clever choice... after all "Giant in the Playground".... so I started looking at high CR Giants.

The Mountain Giant seems to have the highest CR and can fling opponents (Miko) but no kind of abilities like Wish, Teleport or anything close.

I found a link to a "Shadow Giant", which has a CR of 18. Problem is it's apparently in Fiend Folio, which I'm pretty sure I won't be able to get access to, well not the 3.5 or 3.0 edition of it anyway. I have the old 1st Edition copy of Fiend Folio, but that's probably not relevant.

Thing is, a Shadow Giant would kind of be clever, you know, a Giant in the Shadows ?

Does anyone have Fiend Folio 3.5 ? Care to look up Shadow Giant ?
Obviously the critical things to look for would be:

• Does it have Wish, or some other ability that could account for V and O-Chul's escape recently ?
• Can it fling opponents (Miko) ?
• Does it need to sleep or rest after using some abilities ?
• What size is it ? (When fully grown or as a juvenile)
• Does it either have an insanely high AC or lots of Damage Reduction ?
• Does it eat (stew) ?
• Is it rare enough that just about no-one would know what it is ?

Just a thought.

EDIT - Found this link that seems to suggest the only special ability it has is "hide in plain sight at will". If that is it's only ability, it's not MitD.

[Scion_of_Darkness]

Baby Cthullhu is my personal favourite theory so far.

Its nice to know that I came up with a believable theory for once.

[Ferrous]

Pardon me if this was already brought up - I don't read the forums much, and generally check it out when I don't get a particular reference. I am by no means an expert on DnD, so I do not have any knowledge of the rules or monster book.

However, I've been rereading OOTS, and I believe that I have a hypothesis on the species of the MITD: He's a Minotaur. I understand that doesn't explain his apparent ability to cast spells, but perhaps there are DnD rules to get around that. My reasoning comes from this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html

*warning: SOD spoilers*

• If you recall in SOD, the setting in which the MITD was captured, and how exactly he was captured are both in line with that of the jungle, and by dangling food (although I do not recall what kind of food in SoD was dangled outside of the cage, but it was certainly not native to the island. Besides, the cheeseburger wrappers and buns could have been from the explorers, not for the MITD)
• Chief Grukgruk mentions that it was a "great bull" - which relates it directly to a minotaur
• The time frame is likely to be consistent
• A Minotaur's habitat is not a jungle, but rather in a maze (or something underground perhaps).

Additionally, a minotaur's appearance is likely to be consistent with the reactions of those who saw it's appearance in SoD. Additionally, it's appetite, I imagine, is also consistent with that of a Minotaur.

That's what I've got. I apologize if this is a repetition of a similar idea.

[hamishspence]

The food was a steak.

Minotaurs are predatory.

Interesting hypothesis.

[Kish]

Doesn't fit. Minotaurs are low-level monsters in D&D.

[Sanguine]

Interesting hypothesis but I'm going to go with Kish here Minotaurs have to low a CR. I still think it's a dragon

[MrPig]

Besides, the cheeseburger wrappers and buns could have been from the explorers, not for the MITD

I think the joke was that they ate the bull by making burgers using the buns and cheese slices.

[Ancalagon]

Good find, it actually might be clue, the "lots of food" indicates it actually might connect to the MitD.

I doubt it's a minotaur, the monster just does not work like the mitd, but if it looks like "a great thing with horns or so", those orcs would probably describe it "some sort of giant bull or so" (if great bulls are the only massive things they know).

So, both the "the mitd is a mini-godzilla" as well as "the mitd is a pit fiend" (if a pit fiend in the oots-world looks a bit more like "classic demon" and less than the "balrog ripoff" (Which t is) would go along as "great bull (at least when described by some crude orc who does not know anything else to compare it to)".

Only thing... the mitd does not seem to be "great" or "huge". But I like the theory here. :)

[Snake-Aes]

Minotaurs can't wish people to the cornfield.

[Optimystik]

In addition to the observations above, Minotaurs don't have any damage reduction, much less the titanic levels that MitD seems to. I think we can safely rule this one out.

[Kallisti]

It's an interseting hypothesis, but I'll have to join the naysayers on this one unless you can explain for the minotaur:
1. Being scary enough to be the secret weapon of Xykon, the epic-level lich sorceror.
2. Having enough DR to ignore Miko's attacks, and enough Strength to catapult her and Windstriker through a wall while trying its hardest to tap her lightly.
3. The ability to teleport V and O-Chul elsewhere during someone else's action (Xykon was in the middle of his spell...)
4. The Strength score to cause earthquakes by stomping his feet.

[Thrax]

It's an interseting hypothesis, but I'll have to join the naysayers on this one unless you can explain for the minotaur:
1. Being scary enough to be the secret weapon of Xykon, the epic-level lich sorceror.
2. Having enough DR to ignore Miko's attacks, and enough Strength to catapult her and Windstriker through a wall while trying its hardest to tap her lightly.
3. The ability to teleport V and O-Chul elsewhere during someone else's action (Xykon was in the middle of his spell...)
4. The Strength score to cause earthquakes by stomping his feet.

Honestly, there is no monster that fulfills all of those, unless you count some epic aberration that I don't know of. Which would mean that this one must be a unique example of his kind, maybe a Minotaur, but I'm not betting on it.

[armatil]

could it be a minotaur with some sort of outrageous template applied to it? (maybe one homecooked by the giant, one that is intentionally disproportional to the point of ridiculousness?)

then again, it may as well be a homecooked creature, but the minotaur theory seems consistent with any physical desription given of the MitD, just not with his abilities.

[Kish]

I am unaware of any evidence that the creature in the darkness is a minotaur that doesn't hinge on ignoring the hamburger joke and thinking the creature in the darkness is supposed to have been the orcs' previous god, which, I'm sorry, gets a from me.

"An X-which-fits-nothing with a Rich-created template that makes it something completely different" would be functionally equivalent to "something Rich made up," exactly what he said the creature isn't. If you want to theorize that he's using that kind of semantic dodge, go right ahead, I can't stop you.

[Optimystik]

Chief Grukgruk mentions that it was a "great bull" - which relates it directly to a minotaur

Interesting thought, but what makes you think he was referring to the MitD? Or that these two jungles are even the same?

If you recall in SOD, the setting in which the MITD was captured, and how exactly he was captured are both in line with that of the jungle, and by dangling food (although I do not recall what kind of food in SoD was dangled outside of the cage, but it was certainly not native to the island. Besides, the cheeseburger wrappers and buns could have been from the explorers, not for the MITD.)

The buns and cheese slices are a gag; Grukgruk is implying that their bull deity was eaten, likely by the orcs themselves (and even more amusingly, without his or shaman Vurkle's knowledge.)

[Pepz]

I like the theory, but especially the lack of ridiculous DR does it for me .

Nice try, Irony.

[Thrax]

MitD must use some template, since there is no creature that fits EVERY piece of information we have about this guy. I'm not saying this template is house-ruled, but there certainly is one.

[Kish]

MitD must use some template, since there is no creature that fits EVERY piece of information we have about this guy.

It's logically impossible to prove a negative.

You're prepared to assert that in all the Monster Manuals WotC has ever published there is nothing that fits the creature in the darkness? Really? And having made that assertion, that the differences are explained by a template, not, say, two levels of monk (what explained the "paladin with evasion"), or minor house-ruling (the plane-shifting doesn't-need-to-kiss-to-energy-drain succubus)? You're braver than I.

[Carnivorous M.]

Giant Mogwai, maybe?

[hamishspence]

If MM, MM2, MM3, MM4, MM5, Fiend Folio, Epic Handbook, the whole Environment series, and more, don't show anything quite like it, his comment is pretty appropriate. (I've done a lot of combing of books and haven't seen any obvious candidates).

Its possible we are overlooking something, but its powers (wish-like effect, earthquake-like effect, massive DR) don't fit with its apparent Medium size (it may be low built and Large, but it doesn't look much like that.)

[FoE]

Interesting thought, but what makes you think he was referring to the MitD? Or that these two jungles are even the same?

Basically, Optymistik had the same thought as I did. There's no evidence that the island of the orcs and the MitD's jungle were one and the same, and there's no apparent connection between the orcs' god and the MitD.

The buns and cheese slices are a gag; Grukgruk is implying that their bull deity was eaten, likely by the orcs themselves (and even more amusingly, without his or shaman Vurkle's knowledge.)

Exactly.

Anyways, we've already seen one minotaur in Origin of PCs, and he towered over the heads of the other humanoids in the panel he appeared in. If the MitD was a minotaur, he'd have to spend all his time squatting. Plus, minotaurs don't have any of the special abilities displayed by the MitD.

[Mauve Shirt]

He said even people who don't play D&D could guess the monster. So possibly it's not from D&D. I know Ganurath likes his theory that the mitd's the son of Godzilla or something like that.

[BobVosh]

SoD spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

The hunters were surprised that the MitD could talk. Minotaurs are thought of being capable of talking.

While I like the thought of godzilla's kid, it doesn't seem to fit. Big G never showed much intelligence, and most certainly never teleported other people elsewhere.

[FujinAkari]

While I like the thought of godzilla's kid, it doesn't seem to fit. Big G never showed much intelligence, and most certainly never teleported other people elsewhere.

However, Godzilla's kid was shown to be highly intellegent and capable of speech, although the new wrinkle with the spellcasting doesn't fit.

[factotum]

He said even people who don't play D&D could guess the monster. So possibly it's not from D&D.

Quoted for truth. In fact, if even a non-D&D player can guess it, it's almost certain that it ISN'T a normal D&D monster, because how would a non-D&D player guess one of those?

[TheBibliophile]

He said even people who don't play D&D could guess the monster. So possibly it's not from D&D. I know Ganurath likes his theory that the mitd's the son of Godzilla or something like that.

Personally, I think it's a Pokemon with either Earthquake or Fissure (for the foot-stamp thing), Teleport (which is limitless in the Pokemon games), Protect (which it used accidentaly when Miko attacked it), and some sort of Fighting-type move, possibly Sky Uppercut or Dynamicpunch, which again, it used accidentally while trying to tap Miko.

And a cookie for anyone who guesses where I got this theory from.

[Kish]

He said even people who don't play D&D could guess the monster.

No. He did not.

I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for this one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

Let's not base our speculations on Telephone Game distortions of what Rich said.

[Jan Mattys]

It's logically impossible to prove a negative.

You're prepared to assert that in all the Monster Manuals WotC has ever published there is nothing that fits the creature in the darkness? Really? And having made that assertion, that the differences are explained by a template, not, say, two levels of monk (what explained the "paladin with evasion"), or minor house-ruling (the plane-shifting doesn't-need-to-kiss-to-energy-drain succubus)? You're braver than I.

The identity of the MiTD is likely to be a major plot point later on.
The Order of the Stick webcomic ha always made quite a few efforts in the past to be at least partially intelligible by anyone, and not only by D&D hardcorers.

I think it's much more likely for the MiTD to be a Godzilla or another popular culture monster than an obscure half fiend-half whatever-obscure template d&d one. And the information we've got rules out pretty much all non-obscure d&d monsters.

So I think Trax HAS a point.

[Ron Miel]

I presume Godzilla is protected by copyright. I seriously doubt that The Giant will risk the legal issues with using someone else's intellectual property. The legal principle of Fair Use allows brief jokes, such as the one panel appearances of Batman, but wouldn't permit a hundred or so strips with a copyrighted character. The MITD must be something in the public domain.

[Kish]

The identity of the MiTD is likely to be a major plot point later on.
The Order of the Stick webcomic ha always made quite a few efforts in the past to be at least partially intelligible by anyone, and not only by D&D hardcorers.

I think it's much more likely for the MiTD to be a Godzilla or another popular culture monster than an obscure half fiend-half whatever-obscure template d&d one. And the information we've got rules out pretty much all non-obscure d&d monsters.

So I think Trax HAS a point.

? It looks to me like you're disagreeing with him--you conclude by saying you don't think it's going to be a D&D monster with a template.