Avatar Battle Royale Discussion Thread XXV: The Future (Imperfect) is...Soon

[Threeshades]

How about we all just go by the standard rules of technologic fantasy that close combatants either just somehow always make it into close quarters without taking too much harm, or that those using primarily close combat weapons have powers compensationg for their drawback. And i think we can safely agree that magic is not the problem. Sure for a lot of levels its more a nice set of utilities but at sufficiently high level it outshines technology (teleporting, spells that waste entire landscapes, resurrection, healing magic etc.)

Well as for threeshades ive been making sure she has the necessary compensation. Roka will probably carry a gun next to her double-sword.

[Mad Mask]

How about we all just go by the standard rules of technologic fantasy that close combatants either just somehow always make it into close quarters without taking too much harm, or that those using primarily close combat weapons have powers compensationg for their drawback. And i think we can safely agree that magic is not the problem. Sure for a lot of levels its more a nice set of utilities but at sufficiently high level it outshines technology (teleporting, spells that waste entire landscapes, resurrection, healing magic etc.)

Well as for threeshades ive been making sure she has the necessary compensation. Roka will probably carry a gun next to her double-sword.

Why do people have to still use swords and invent ways of making them better ? Can't we all switch to guns ?

[Lyinginbedmon]

Because guns are still lethal and people think they're cool?

[Threeshades]

Why do people have to still use swords and invent ways of making them better ? Can't we all switch to guns ?

because swords are simply cool, and make for much more elegant fight scenes.

[Mina Kobold]

Well, Salmon had magical amulet, White's an alien whose father has earth at command which definitely counts as access to magic and I guess she has some magic items too, and Zhihai has a dragon in bloodline so little magic still flows through his veins, and in Plot 3 most of technology was also supplied by magic...

White don't have access to Geodian powers (and she can't order her dad around, but why do having a family member with magical powers count as access to magic anyway?) and she doesn't use magical items, you can't just forget the hatred of magic for millenia (arcane magic was the cause of their planet being split in two) that quickly. Zhihai do have draconic blood but he doesn't really have sorcerer potential nor interest in magic, even if his life depended on it he probably couldn't use magic. And the crazy old man (he has a name but Plot 3 stopped before anyone got to know it) is crazy and acting like a dog, he has no idea what the magitek stuff do nor how to use it.

[Calamity]

Why do people have to still use swords and invent ways of making them better ? Can't we all switch to guns ?

Geez, I think Threeshades should be able to use swords if they want to.

I'm not a fan of this "use guns or die" vibe.

[Felyndiira]

If it seems like I'm complaining, then I apologize, but I would just like a gauge of magic versus commonly accessibly technology in terms of effectiveness. By "technology being equal to a mid-high mage," does that mean that a common mook soldier wielding common technology can be considered the equivalent of a <mid-high by settings> six level mage (fireballs, invisibility sphere, protection from energy, etc.), or the equivalent of a <mid-high by level> 13th level mage (starmantle, delayed blast fireballs, mass invisibility, finger of death)?

[Mad Mask]

Geez, I think Threeshades should be able to use swords if they want to.

I'm not a fan of this "use guns or die" vibe.

As long as Threeshades doesn't charge blindly (heh heh heh) in front of a squad of Peacekeepers I won't mind.

because swords are simply cool, and make for much more elegant fight scenes.

Don't forget revolvers.

If it seems like I'm complaining, then I apologize, but I would just like a gauge of magic versus commonly accessibly technology in terms of effectiveness. By "technology being equal to a mid-high mage," does that mean that a common mook soldier wielding common technology can be considered the equivalent of a <mid-high by settings> six level mage (fireballs, invisibility sphere, protection from energy, etc.), or the equivalent of a <mid-high by level> 13th level mage (starmantle, delayed blast fireballs, mass invisibility, finger of death)?

They don't really translate well. In term of pure destructive ability, a Peacekeeper (by no mean a mook, only the ALF has them) is the latter, with grenades and rifles, but they lack the utility of a wizard, relying on tactics, environment and vehicles.

[Tiffanie Lirle]

I have the obvious solution to the whole gun vs swords thing.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you one of, if not the most impractical weapon(s) ever thought up by man.

Spoiler

Show

The gunblade! Now train everybody in gun fu and we're set.

[Felyndiira]

They don't really translate well. In term of pure destructive ability, a Peacekeeper (by no mean a mook, only the ALF has them) is the latter, with grenades and rifles, but they lack the utility of a wizard, relying on tactics, environment and vehicles.

Got it, thanks ^^.

[Khaeta]

Don't forget revolvers.

Well, swords, especially the semi-katana one Hoss has, are pretty awesome too...

[Threeshades]

As long as Threeshades doesn't charge blindly (heh heh heh) in front of a squad of Peacekeepers I won't mind.

its not Threeshades im worried about. She'll cope just fine. But all the other melee characters.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I have the obvious solution to the whole gun vs swords thing.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you one of, if not the most impractical weapon(s) ever thought up by man.

Spoiler

Show

The gunblade! Now train everybody in gun fu and we're set.

Alas, gunblades exist in reality.

[Threeshades]

Alas, gunblades exist in reality.

They used to be called bayonets i believe.

[Lyinginbedmon]

They used to be called bayonets i believe.

Pistol Sword actually.

[-skimmer-]

I can recall atleast one manga where character wields a gunblade. Kingdom Hearts, anyone?

[Calamity]

I can recall atleast one manga where character wields a gunblade. Kingdom Hearts, anyone?

If you're talking about Leon/Squall, he's the main character of Final Fantasy VIII.

Which, if I may add, swords wore more useful and effective than guns in that universe. (And they had machine guns and the like!). Also, apparently, Gunblades never miss unless you're blinded. Huh.

[Grim ranger]

I don't like these debates of "guns vs. magic". They cannot really be measured against each other, because they work in completely different ways. I do not like MM saying "anyone with pistol can kill wizard dead in anywhere", but I do not like "wizards are bullet-invunerable engines of death" option either. Let's just say wizards and gun-users are both good at different kinds of situations and leave it at that, shall we?

Also, why should everyone use guns? Swords are cool, and I see no real deterrent to using them exept for range, which in cityfights is limited anyways. Gun can kill people rather quickly, but sword can do the same, and without noise at that. Sword is also much more "noble" weapon and has finesse, and it never jams or runs out of bullets.

[Khaeta]

Also, why should everyone use guns? Swords are cool, and I see no real deterrent to using them exept for range, which in cityfights is limited anyways. Gun can kill people rather quickly, but sword can do the same, and without noise at that. Sword is also much more "noble" weapon and has finesse, and it never jams or runs out of bullets.

My thoughts exactly.

[Mad Mask]

Also, why should everyone use guns? Swords are cool, and I see no real deterrent to using them exept for range, which in cityfights is limited anyways. Gun can kill people rather quickly, but sword can do the same, and without noise at that. Sword is also much more "noble" weapon and has finesse, and it never jams or runs out of bullets.

But FI is supposed to be more "realistic" (except for the magic, of course), where guns function more or less the same the way they do in real life. And in real life, you have to charge and expose yourself to use the sword, and you can't alternate between staying in cover and attacking your enemy, which is a big advantage for guns. In real life, gunshot wounds are also deadlier than sword wounds, because cleaving somebody in half in the heat of combat isn't really do-able, and you can't parry or dodge bullets (in FI, you can use magic to do that, but it's high-level and isn't practical to apply on every footsoldier).

I don't like these debates of "guns vs. magic". They cannot really be measured against each other, because they work in completely different ways. I do not like MM saying "anyone with pistol can kill wizard dead in anywhere", but I do not like "wizards are bullet-invunerable engines of death" option either. Let's just say wizards and gun-users are both good at different kinds of situations and leave it at that, shall we?

I'm not saying that a pistol can kill a wizard anywhere instantly. Of course, if he has no buffs and no healing, the wizard is as vulnerable as anyone else to gunfire, but if he's smart, he can mitigate their effects. While unless he's really high-level he won't be able to match the pure destructiveness of Peacekeeper weapons, a wizard has a lot of utility and defence spells, plenty of which can render him a lot more resistant to bullets than anybody else (stoneskin, for instance).

[Threeshades]

Two words: Troll Infantry

[Mad Mask]

Two words: Troll Infantry

One (composite) word: flamethrowers.

[Threeshades]

One (composite) word: flamethrowers.

Five words: Troll infantry in fire suits

[kpenguin]

Alright, peoples, why not just put this all to a vote rather than keep arguing?

For my part, I personally believe that FI should be darker, perhaps, but perhaps not more realistic. Empire Strikes Back has often been cited as the level of darkness we're going for here, but really the tone still seems to be rather dark compared to that.

Of course, I doubt I'll actually be participating much in this.

[Threeshades]

Alright, peoples, why not just put this all to a vote rather than keep arguing?

For my part, I personally believe that FI should be darker, perhaps, but perhaps not more realistic. Empire Strikes Back has often been cited as the level of darkness we're going for here, but really the tone still seems to be rather dark compared to that.

Of course, I doubt I'll actually be participating much in this.

Yeah. Probably th most sensible version

[Grim ranger]

But FI is supposed to be more "realistic" (except for the magic, of course), where guns function more or less the same the way they do in real life. And in real life, you have to charge and expose yourself to use the sword, and you can't alternate between staying in cover and attacking your enemy, which is a big advantage for guns. In real life, gunshot wounds are also deadlier than sword wounds, because cleaving somebody in half in the heat of combat isn't really do-able, and you can't parry or dodge bullets (in FI, you can use magic to do that, but it's high-level and isn't practical to apply on every footsoldier).

Might I ask who talked anything about charging towards the firing squad? In tightly-cramped places swords do come to their own, and it doesn't help much to have big honking gun if your windpipe is slashed open from behind. Also, I have not seen much implications from other ABR:ers than yourself that FI is going to be uber-realistic. If we start to cut out things that cannot be realistically done and want to turn everything into working by rules of "real world", we will lose much of freedom ABR had before, and I do not know if people would like it. Of course breaking cover to charge towards the barrels of gatling gun amounts to suicide in most cases, but when such stunts ocassionally are pulled off without upsetting the power balance of whole setting, damn they look awesome. That is what ABR is about in my mind, good story with working world, but not too realistic.

I'm not saying that a pistol can kill a wizard anywhere instantly. Of course, if he has no buffs and no healing, the wizard is as vulnerable as anyone else to gunfire, but if he's smart, he can mitigate their effects. While unless he's really high-level he won't be able to match the pure destructiveness of Peacekeeper weapons, a wizard has a lot of utility and defence spells, plenty of which can render him a lot more resistant to bullets than anybody else (stoneskin, for instance).

How exactly cannot he match them? Let's see: you need many bullets to kill a person, usually. You only need one fireball to toast many persons, or one high-level attack spell like disintegrate to assassinate leaders. Also, while peacekeeprs can no doubt shoot well, they are still NPC:s, not something that regularly beats PC:s within inch of their life. They are not maybe mere mooks, but they are still very much killable.

[Mad Mask]

I thought we had agreed on making it "grey" rather than "dark" ? It's not supposed to be a crapsack world where the Resistance are ineffective people who live in the sewers (propaganda be damned).

[Threeshades]

I thought we had agreed on making it "grey" rather than "dark" ? It's not supposed to be a crapsack world where the Resistance are ineffective people who live in the sewers (propaganda be damned).

Empire strikes back is not exactly a black void of pessimism

[kpenguin]

Well, is Empire Strikes Back really that dark? I mean, you've got plenty of lighthearted moments, even if the situation gets progressively worse for Luke and the gang.

[Threeshades]

Well, is Empire Strikes Back really that dark? I mean, you've got plenty of lighthearted moments, even if the situation gets progressively worse for Luke and the gang.

Compared to what the FI material so far looks like SW:ESB looks like a happy willow with pink bunnies and singing petals.