Why do people think it's okay to keep trying to rob me?

[Keld Denar]

Second, let's say you do have to. heres a scenario: someone kicks down my door while I'm down the hallway or otherwise towards the back of the house, Get a crossbow. Everyone's so fond of the shootgun loading sound, unless you're a crossbow hunter you probably don't know any of the sounds they make, and if it's not an instant kill shot it's going to be a lot more confusing than "ow, pain, im shot!" because of the whole bolt sticking out of you thing.

Except...you know...that crossbows are even harder to obtain and WAY more expensive than a regular firearm. I know in Michigan you need a special permit to buy one, and you can't hunt with it unless you get a different permit that requires disability status.

You can get a Remington pump shotgun at wal-mart for ~$200 and in most states you don't need ANY permit.

[Pyrian]

I'm pretty sure nobody's ever been convicted of "allowing" their dog to bite a burglar.

[THAC0]

I'm pretty sure nobody's ever been convicted of "allowing" their dog to bite a burglar.

No, but afterwards you frequently have to get a new dog...

[SDF]

Not to get too political about it, but my belief is that if someone is willing to rob others then it is in everyones best interest if they just died. They are not a productive member of society and likely never will be. They might not be willing to murder, but its not like you are removing a great potential from the world.

Theft as a capital offense? Holy spoon, I hope you don't own firearms.

[Stormthorn]

Even if someone breaks in, don't kill them. Seriously. The click-click should be enough to get them on their knees while you call the cops.

And if it isnt he could load the shell with rocksalt and candle wax.

Unlikely to kill at even pretty close ranges, but very painful.

They are not a productive member of society and likely never will be.

Thats a HUGE assumption on your part. They might steal because of kleptomania and still have a normal job. They might be children who are in school.

if somebody intends to kill you you should have no qualms about doing the same to them. one of you is going to die either way so it might as well be them since it can end right there or they can keep on killing people.

Thats a really good reason to NOT defend your home with a firearm. Most burglers dont want to kill you (at least, not where i live) so if you dont try to hurt them your less likely to get shot.

Dont get me wrong. I would kill someone in defense of life and limb. But my Xbox is, contrary to popular belief, not my life.

[Keld Denar]

Theft as a capital offense? Holy spoon, I hope you don't own firearms.

In Texas and a few other states, depending on who catches you, where, and how accurate they are. If you are lucky, the police get to you first. See entire first 3 pages of discussion for details.

I have heard of cases of dogs savagely attacking intruders who have filed lawsuits against the dog owner. I've never seen their success/failure ratio or any verdicts from them, or even if they made it before a judge, but I have heard of them being filed. I'm thinking, though, if you have Beware: Dog signs posted, the intruder forfeits as many rights as they do for ignoring No Trespassing signs and getting shot up a man protecting his family and property.

EDIT:

And if it isnt he could load the shell with rocksalt and candle wax.

Unlikely to kill at even pretty close ranges, but very painful.

Urban myth. Go have a read around the interwebs...many times you are better off turning the shotgun around and clubbing someone with the stock than expecting a rocksalt load to "disable" them to the point where they can't fight back and the police can collect them. I wouldn't risk my life, or the lives of my family, on anything less than lethal. If you say I don't value life, my rebut is that I value my own life, and those of my loved ones, over those of someone who willfully enters my home, regardless of reason, unless said enterer is a well identified official.

[Stormthorn]

Rock salt loads? Please.

I just noticed htis post. 12 feet is pretty reasonably if you rin your home.

And the objective IS just to deter the attacker, so a cloud of salt hitting your face at high speeds works even if it doesnt tear you open.

But like i said. Wax works too, i have heard.

Specificly a guy i know told me that when he was a kid living in a rural area a friend of his was shot with a wax bullet after sneaking onto a farmers property. It left a burn mark and a big giant welt. Putting those hard wax pellets form candle making kits for children into a shotgun might be the sort of firepower escalation you need.

If you say I don't value life, my rebut is that I value my own life, and those of my loved ones, over those of someone who willfully enters my home, regardless of reason, unless said enterer is a well identified official.

I value my life more than an invaders too. I just value the invaders enough to not want to shoot some punk kid.
I think my actual response if someone where to break in would just be to hide in a closet.

[nothingclever]

No, but afterwards you frequently have to get a new dog...

I doubt that frequently happens when the burglar is actually inside your house especially with a "Beware of Large Dog" sign.

There are plenty of cases where a dog cripples an intruder by tearing apart his arm and the dog and its owner have zero problems with any charges filed against them afterwards.

[Mystic Muse]

Thats a really good reason to NOT defend your home with a firearm. Most burglers dont want to kill you (at least, not where i live) so if you dont try to hurt them your less likely to get shot.

Dont get me wrong. I would kill someone in defense of life and limb. But my Xbox is, contrary to popular belief, not my life.

yes but I wasn't saying shoot them if they're stealing something. I was saying shoot them if they're going to kill you or somebody else.

if they brought a gun it's probably because they're prepared to kill you to get what they want, just to kill you or things we're not allowed to discuss on this site

[Stormthorn]

I doubt that frequently happens when the burglar is actually inside your house especially with a "Beware of Large Dog" sign.

There are plenty of cases where a dog cripples an intruder by tearing apart his arm and the dog and its owner have zero problems with any charges filed against them afterwards.

True. But if dogs are anything like the Big Cats they might bite again. I wouldnt know tho, since i steer clear of dogs.

[Keld Denar]

And the objective IS just to deter the attacker, so a cloud of salt hitting your face at high speeds works even if it doesnt tear you open.

No...

That attitude is likely to get you killed. I'm serious on this one. Its misconceptions like that that are DANGEROUS. Think about this:

That intruder has a pistol tucked in his belt. He breaks into your home and starts grabbing armloads of electronics and anything else he can fit. You hear him, and step into the room leveling a shotgun at him. He flinches and you fire. He hits the ground in agony, only to realize that while it hurts A LOT, he's still consious and can still move. He pulls the pistol from his belt and fires blindly in your direction. Maybe he hits you, maybe he doesn't. Maybe the bullet goes past you, splinters the thin sheetrock behind you and goes through the next room. Maybe there is someone in that next room that you care deeply about, and that bullet pierces a vital. Maybe it strikes you. Now you are down with REAL damage and are bleeding out. The intruder recovers from being dazed, realizes he's made a lucky break, and runs out. You only HOPE that someone hears the gunshots and calls for help, and that that help gets there in time.

THATS how real life works. Maybe you get lucky. Maybe you die. If you had hid in the closet, the intruder would have gotten your DVD player and your Xbox, but you'd probably still be alive. The second you step into that confrontation, you had BETTER mean business, because you don't know if he does or not. And if he does, the outcome of that die roll is dire.

I play D&D. I roll dice for my character's life all the time. I make morally difficult choices for him, and accept the consequences because hey, its just a game, and if Torg dies, I'll roll another one and call him Toregar. You can't roll up another life, another child, another wife. I don't gamble with my life. Its the only one I have, and dang it, I like being alive!

I hope I'm never in that situation. I hope you aren't either. I pray NOONE is. But if it did happen, I'd hope whoever it happens to isn't disillusioned by something they read on the internet.

[Stormthorn]

And thats your opinion. You are welcome to it. I am welcome to mine.

[Erts]

And thats your opinion. You are welcome to it. I am welcome to mine.

So how do you defend against his point?

[billtodamax]

*really doesn't like gun legality*
*will argue anyway*

I agree with Trixie on this one, it's pretty depressing how you can calmly talk about ending someone else's life. Get a good lock, an alarm system, and a couple video cameras if you want, then call the police the moment someone starts breaking in.

[Lord Seth]

They haven't got into my apartment yet, but that's not for lack of trying. First time was about 2 months ago, I woke up around 1AM to what felt like the whole house shaking (it's a small house, I have the top half) as they tried to kick down my door.

I called the police later that day, though I expected what the officer would say. They didn't actually get in, so the most they could charge the people with (if they found them) would be some form of vandalism. Figured that. I just wanted there to be a record of an attempted home invasion while I was home. Bastards.

My apologies if this has already been asked/answered, but if someone was trying to kick down your door at 1AM, why did you wait until later that day to call the police? Wouldn't it have made more sense to call them right then in the hopes they'd show up and catch them?

[snoopy13a]

Honestly, I think there are two options when it comes to a gun for home protections:

1) If you have a gun, shoot to kill. I know this sounds a bit barbaric but if you pull a gun on a burglar, the %#%# has hit the fan. He (or in a rare case she) may be armed themselves so aiming for the legs or a warning shot is not a wise option. If you are going to bring out a piece, it becomes you or them. Shoot to kill, if this bothers you then don't own a gun (I don't and I don't plan to)

2) Don't own a gun and call the cops or comply with an armed burglar- This is my personal method as I wouldn't want to actually kill someone (even if justified). I don't believe in guns and I'm willing to give an armed burglar whatever they want if it comes to that.

However, if you carry a gun and plan to confront a burglar you can't go by half-measures. The reason is that the burglar has a very good chance of being armed themselves. If you start a gunfight, it becomes a life or death situation. If you don't want to deal with the consequences of shooting to kill in this situation, then do what I do and don't own a gun.

[Renegade Paladin]

*really doesn't like gun legality*
*will argue anyway*

I agree with Trixie on this one, it's pretty depressing how you can calmly talk about ending someone else's life. Get a good lock, an alarm system, and a couple video cameras if you want, then call the police the moment someone starts breaking in.

When you need help in seconds, the police are only minutes away. By all means, call the police, but being able to help yourself is far more useful. The same applies to other emergency services as well; just as I advocate responsible gun ownership, I also advocate the possession of fire extinguishers and first aid kits, and competency to use them.

Besides, philosophically speaking, what is the difference between defending yourself with force and having someone else (i.e. the police) do it for you? If the offender is going to respond in a manner that requires you to shoot him, he will likely respond to the police in a manner that requires them to shoot him.

[billtodamax]

With good security measures, you shouldn't need help in seconds. It'll take them a bit to get past them, hopefully allowing time for the police to arrive.

[Keld Denar]

I agree with Trixie on this one, it's pretty depressing how you can calmly talk about ending someone else's life.

My point isn't "shoot the mofo and be done with it". The signage I posted earlier was ment for humor. You can see from my previous posts, my point is thus: IF you are going to confront someone, carry no false illusions with you. Shooting someone with "less than lethal" force under the pretense that it'll solve your problems is likely to INCREASE your problems. I'd highly advocate to a person who isn't comfortable with firearms to do exactly as others have stated. Hide. Let them take your stuff then file a police report and collect your insurance money. You get new stuff, and you aren't dead. IF you confront the intruder, however, do not do so with anything less than deadly intent. The scenario I posted above is only one outcome. There are lots of others, but most of them are bad.

I just have a problem with someone giving advise to others thats liable to get someone killed. Less-than-lethal force is a lie. Is your life worth banking on that?

[billtodamax]

My point isn't "shoot the mofo and be done with it". The signage I posted earlier was ment for humor. You can see from my previous posts, my point is thus: IF you are going to confront someone, carry no false illusions with you. Shooting someone with "less than lethal" force under the pretense that it'll solve your problems is likely to INCREASE your problems. I'd highly advocate to a person who isn't comfortable with firearms to do exactly as others have stated. Hide. Let them take your stuff then file a police report and collect your insurance money. You get new stuff, and you aren't dead. IF you confront the intruder, however, do not do so with anything less than deadly intent. The scenario I posted above is only one outcome. There are lots of others, but most of them are bad.

I just have a problem with someone giving advise to others thats liable to get someone killed. Less-than-lethal force is a lie. Is your life worth banking on that?

My post wasn't aimed directly at you rather at most people in this thread. At you last paragraph: advising someone to kill, is in fact, liable to get someone killed. I also disagree with "Less-than-lethal force is a lie." There are plenty of ways to stop someone without killing them. Even a taser would be better than a gun, IMO.

[Keld Denar]

Even a taser would be better than a gun, IMO.

Would you bet your life on that? I wouldn't.

[billtodamax]

Yes. Yes I would.

[Mystic Muse]

You should of course make it clear that if they don't put their hands up and if they make any sudden moves you will shoot them rather than just outright shooting them. unless of course you're already out there and they've pulled a gun on you. Then they're going to shoot you and you should shoot first.

[Mystic Muse]

Yes. Yes I would.

Taser's work on burglars. not Murderers with guns who want to blow your head off.

[SDF]

Tasers work on everyone. They are just way more expensive than a gun.

[billtodamax]

Edit button.
And, why not, exactly?

[THAC0]

Tasers are either ineffective against a large subset of the population, including many criminal elements, for the same reason mace is (namely, high pain tolerance and familiarity), OR incredibly difficult to use effectively, and require you to get much too close.

[billtodamax]

You know what electricity does to a body, right? High pain tolerance isn't going to help you if you can't move because your muscles are constantly taught.

Re: Expensiveness: I'm going to pay extra to not have to kill. If I were to get a taser. I'd still prefer to find more non0violent methods to stop someone from robbing me blind or killing me, apparently.

[Mystic Muse]

they can still fire the gun before they go down and if they're wearing a heavy coat the taser won't even hit them.

[Jack Squat]

I just noticed htis post. 12 feet is pretty reasonably if you rin your home.

And the objective IS just to deter the attacker, so a cloud of salt hitting your face at high speeds works even if it doesnt tear you open.

But like i said. Wax works too, i have heard.

Rock Salt and Wax are horrible. Lets be honest, if you're in the position that you need to fire a gun at someone, you want them dead (although, yes, you only shoot to stop). If you're against killing them, don't point a gun at them, it's that simple. There's plenty other less-lethal options available. RAID works pretty well, and is already available in most dwellings; same with Baseball bats or 4D cell mag lights.

In regard to the ammo load, military issue is #4, a lot of people recommend 00, which will work, but it is a little harder on your shoulder, takes a little longer to realign your sight picture, etc. I'd say you're good if you don't use bird/target shot. Also, I've got basically the same gun as you (Remington 11), and if it's been running bird shot, you'll need to make sure you swap out the metal disk up against the spring to set up for the heavier recoil of buck shot.

@ Billtodamax: Lethal options are the best at stopping threats. Tasers aren't bad, but if you miss you're in trouble, and they're not guaranteed to work - especially if someone's drugged up. If you meant a stun gun, I wouldn't want to go up into melee range with someone that may be armed if I can help it.

Personally, if someone is willing to get into my house and threaten my safety, I'm not going to go out of my way to make sure they're as unharmed as possible. I'm going to use what I have to ensure my safety, even if I hope that I never have to.