Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?

[Innis Cabal]

I doubt many here remember the Link v. Sephiroth vs thread here.....that one was...defining. To say the least. Its the first vs thread I know of that went for more then one full length thread.

[hamishspence]

What about VS arguments based on real technology? A bit like the Samurai Vs Knight ones, but more modern:

say: 100 M1 Abrams vs 100 Challenger 2 tanks. (or, 1 billion dollars worth vs 1 billion dollars worth, if one of them is much more expensive than the other).

or some similar set of "appropriate counterparts".

Do these tend to end up with shaky logic from both sides as well?

[Philistine]

What about VS arguments based on real technology? A bit like the Samurai Vs Knight ones, but more modern:

say: 100 M1 Abrams vs 100 Challenger 2 tanks. (or, 1 billion dollars worth vs 1 billion dollars worth, if one of them is much more expensive than the other).

or some similar set of "appropriate counterparts".

Do these tend to end up with shaky logic from both sides as well?

Yes. Yes, they do. Nationalism - or even just personal affinity, for some people - starts coming into play, and things get really, really screwy, really, really fast. "Tank A vs. Tank B" is a very common one at certain spots around the net, as are "Fighter A vs. Fighter B" and "Warship A vs. Warship B." For example, many people simply are not capable of a calm, rational discussion of the relative merits of the battleships built by various nations' navies in the first half of the 20th century.

[hamishspence]

I see. Do we occasionally see good, well reasoned arguments of this type though?

[Robert Blackletter]

I doubt many here remember the Link v. Sephiroth vs thread here.....that one was...defining. To say the least. Its the first vs thread I know of that went for more then one full length thread.

Are they around anywhere, I had a look but could not find them and it sounds a funny read

[Zeful]

I think they were old enough to get nailed by the thread purge, but I can't find my two or so posts in that thread as the search only went to May 1st of this year.

[Innis Cabal]

They got eaten by the purge I think

[JaxGaret]

I see. Do we occasionally see good, well reasoned arguments of this type though?

Yes, but intermixed with the bad arguments. Essentially, it's a case of
{Scrubbed}

Except that it's the internet so the "children" never stop with their terrible posts.

[Philistine]

I see. Do we occasionally see good, well reasoned arguments of this type though?

They are rarer than hen's teeth. To put it in terms of an aviation discussion, since that's the sort I'm most likely to get sucked into willy-nilly:

Part of the problem is that it's nigh-impossible to get agreement even on relatively easily-measured capabilities such as range and speed. Then you add in more difficult ideas like "maneuverability" (a catch-all term which covers a lot of different aspects of performance), operational factors such as reliability and ease of servicing, situational advantages for one side or the other... and then the real discussion killer, pilot skill. The truth, IMO, is that it's mostly a matter of horses for courses - different types of aircraft are/were optimized for different roles, and are/were usually effective* when used as intended. But sadly, that's not the way such discussions tend to go; mostly they go as JaxGaret described.


* There have been aircraft which absolutely blew chunks in their designed roles, but those aircraft don't generally have legions of rabid partisans sticking up for the honor of their favorite.

[Dervag]

The worst part of the katana vs everything arguments is when they claim that old style samurai with their finely traditionally crafted Japanese iron swords could cut through anything.

There's a very good reason why Japanese swordsmiths had to fold the metal over and over and over again, and it's because their iron is of a horrible quality, not because it grants mystical superpowers. If they hadn't folded it it probably would have easily shattered on impact with anything harder than flesh.

What I want to see is one of those idiots actually talking to someone who makes reproduction Japanese swords using the original techniques and ores. They're still around, but no way in hell are they going to sell you one of their swords to try some crazy "chop a steel bar" stunt. They know quite well what the blades they make are and are not capable of.
_______

Irrelevant responses to stuff from earlier:

According to wookieepedia, Jedi can't deflect bullets.

I was speaking metaphorically, with "bullets" standing in for "blasters." I don't really think I'd go for the sword even if I had some kind of implausible bullet-dodging abilities; I'm not that kind of guy. But I would be tempted.

Er, what? I believe we've sent dozens of people into space in real life and none of them has come back to earth sterile--some of the real long term guys on the Russian Mir station were there for months! Yes, there is radiation in space, but those people are flying around in tin cans that are designed to keep the radiation on the side of the hull where it's dark and vacuum-y. Same in Star Trek, so no reason whatsoever why their medical technology has to be better than today's just because they're in space!

I'm not talking about the normal radiation in space that people have to worry about in real life. I'm talking about the weirdo "particle of the week" stuff that keeps inflicting dramatic illnesses and injuries and threatening to destroy the ship. You've got guys running around in the warp core without radiation suits, catching bizarre alien diseases that force the medical officer to scramble to find a treatment minutes before they dissolve into a pile of goo or whatever, that kind of thing.

In real life, we avoid this kind of thing by taking intelligent precautions, and would presumably continue to do so in the future. In Star Trek, the medical technology is good enough that they're clearly very confident of their own ability to deal with anything that might cause them long-term injury by treating it after the fact, much more so than we are in real life.

*cough*triblaster*cough*

Yeah, yeah, it's not impossible to counter, I know. But it sure seems to help them a lot in many situations. If someone decides to specifically start hunting Jedi with specialized weapons designed to counter lightsaber tactics, I'd expect them to succeed. Most of the time, they have the advantage of local tactical surprise: "no one expects the Jedi inquisition!" sort of thing.

[JaxGaret]

If someone decides to specifically start hunting Jedi with specialized weapons designed to counter lightsaber tactics, I'd expect them to succeed.

"Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, since many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."

Most of the time, they have the advantage of local tactical surprise: "no one expects the Jedi inquisition!" sort of thing.

This is an important point. Jedi are pretty rare; training/equipping oneself specifically to defeat Jedi may leave one more vulnerable to other, more common, threats.

Plus Jedi are sneaky bastards.

[Cainen]

I think the actual worst argument I've ever seen was in a Sephiroth vs. Superman thread(go figure). The guy's argument for Sephiroth winning was pretty much "He's Sephiroth and he's from an FF game, so he can't lose!"

It continued ad-infinitum for PAGES this way, even after he admitted that he didn't know much about Superman at all.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep in mind the broad definition of flaming here, which includes calling people idiots in passive-aggressive or veiled ways. Throwing around insulting terms like "idiot" or calling people who think X "children" is dangerous because it seems incredibly likely your insult hits someone present.

[Zeful]

I think the actual worst argument I've ever seen was in a Sephiroth vs. Superman thread(go figure). The guy's argument for Sephiroth winning was pretty much "He's Sephiroth and he's from an FF game, so he can't lose!"

It continued ad-infinitum for PAGES this way, even after he admitted that he didn't know much about Superman at all.

The best response to people like that is "He's Superman and he's from a DC comic book, so he can't lose!"

[Erts]

"Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, since many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."

Don't forget to use a gun as well.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'd argue that lightsabers could vaporize slugs as well as they can deflect blaster bolts, but if you have a fully-automatic slugthrower, then yeah, that'd help.

[Erts]

I'd argue that lightsabers could vaporize slugs as well as they can deflect blaster bolts, but if you have a fully-automatic slugthrower, then yeah, that'd help.

Yes, but slugs are smaller than blaster bolts and faster. Much harder to hit.

[factotum]

In real life, we avoid this kind of thing by taking intelligent precautions, and would presumably continue to do so in the future. In Star Trek, the medical technology is good enough that they're clearly very confident of their own ability to deal with anything that might cause them long-term injury by treating it after the fact, much more so than we are in real life.

Trouble is, how do you take intelligent precautions against something you've never encountered before? (Of course, Star Trek does have sensors that are capable of detecting things the designers never knew about, which kind of invalidates that argument somewhat ).

[factotum]

Yes, but slugs are smaller than blaster bolts and faster. Much harder to hit.

Bear in mind that the Force gives a Jedi limited precognitive abilities--they can deflect blaster bolts because they know where they're going to be a couple of seconds before they actually arrive; same ought to apply for bullets.

[Prime32]

I think the actual worst argument I've ever seen was in a Sephiroth vs. Superman thread(go figure). The guy's argument for Sephiroth winning was pretty much "He's Sephiroth and he's from an FF game, so he can't lose!"

It continued ad-infinitum for PAGES this way, even after he admitted that he didn't know much about Superman at all.

Well, Superman is highly vulnerable to magic, but if Supernova really works the way it seems to (rather than being an illusory attack) it could make him stronger.

[Thrawn183]

Unfortunately, most of the anti-jedi weapons that seem effective would also be really useful against normal people (sonic weapons, droidekas). Which makes it somewhat inexplicable as to why everybody doesn't have them.

[Innis Cabal]

Cost? Its the prime pain in the arse for all neat weapons

[Jade_Tarem]

Unfortunately, most of the anti-jedi weapons that seem effective would also be really useful against normal people (sonic weapons, droidekas). Which makes it somewhat inexplicable as to why everybody doesn't have them.

As Innis Cabal points out, cost is one reason. Your joe-average blaster carbine can be minted out like lolipops. Sonic devices and other novelty weapons are quite a bit more expensive - and most of them tend to be area-effect weapons, which limits their usefulness somewhat on places like spaceships where collateral damage can theoretically kill everyone (not that it ever seems to stop shootouts on a ship's bridge, but they *should* worry about it).

The other problem with droidekas specifically (in addtion to the expenses one) was the stupidity problem. There's just a basic limit to their thinking - inside it, they're pretty clever (including adapting to new tactics to a certain extent), but most sentient beings, jedi or not, can outwit and kill one given long enough by using its basic programming limits against it.

[blackseven]

Stupidest VS. I've personally seen and read was BOLO versus Harry Potter -verse (mostly just Hogwarts combined).

The OP didn't specify which mark of Bolo, but yeah.

It came down to whether the anti-Muggle technology field in HP could shut down a BOLO or not.

[Fri]

the link vs sephiroth thread is still here. just use google.

[The Glyphstone]

Stupidest VS. I've personally seen and read was BOLO versus Harry Potter -verse (mostly just Hogwarts combined).

The OP didn't specify which mark of Bolo, but yeah.

It came down to whether the anti-Muggle technology field in HP could shut down a BOLO or not.

I hope someone did point out that they can shoot things from miles away, well outside the range of Hogwart's anti-tech field? But yeah, that's pretty bad.

[Zeful]

I hope someone did point out that they can shoot things from miles away, well outside the range of Hogwart's anti-tech field? But yeah, that's pretty bad.

The anti-tech field only works for electronic devices.

[Selrahc]

I hope someone did point out that they can shoot things from miles away, well outside the range of Hogwart's anti-tech field? But yeah, that's pretty bad.

How can you shoot something from miles away when you don't know where it is? Hogwarts is "Unplottable" which I assume refers to electronic attempts to map its location as well as normal maps. Not even pre computing era artillery would be useful, since you can't estimate(or plot) the location with mathematics. All you could do would be to randomly fire in its general direction.

[The Glyphstone]

How can you shoot something from miles away when you don't know where it is? Hogwarts is "Unplottable" which I assume refers to electronic attempts to map its location as well as normal maps. Not even pre computing era artillery would be useful, since you can't estimate(or plot) the location with mathematics. All you could do would be to randomly fire in its general direction.

It's not like they can run out of ammo, so saturation bombardment would work - assuming you didn't care about things like collateral damage, you'd hit it eventually.

Can you guess I don't live in England?

[Dervag]

Trouble is, how do you take intelligent precautions against something you've never encountered before?

"Don't drink the water, don't breathe the air." The weird melt-you-into-a-puddle-of-goo alien pathogen can't get you if you've been following strict decon procedures and wearing hazard suits where indicated.

There will be stuff that gets past your guard, but you'll have a guard. By contrast, many Trek ships have effectively no guard to get past because of their reliance on after-the-fact medical treatment. The fact that this works for them is a sign that their medical technology is more advanced, even if their safety procedures suck.

How can you shoot something from miles away when you don't know where it is? Hogwarts is "Unplottable" which I assume refers to electronic attempts to map its location as well as normal maps. Not even pre computing era artillery would be useful, since you can't estimate(or plot) the location with mathematics. All you could do would be to randomly fire in its general direction.

Since you're shooting at a stone castle, this is by no means unworkable. You could really mess the place up that way.