Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[DranWork]

okay Kzickas, you seem to be entirely focused on what might happen or what your friend might bring to the table, and it sounds like you have a good grasp on what he has on offer. However its a 500 point game, there are always going to be thing you CANT counter at that point level. My advice is stick what what you want to play with. 4 missile launchers are going to be great againt his TROOP options. Whilst you have a chance at taking out that troop transport as well, unless hes got no other viable targets then id be going for something else. IMO missile launcers are better for killing basic troops (guard orcs gaunts ext) then for killing low save high toughness troops (SM CSM wraith ext). If your wanting to wipe out that kind of troop type things that ignore armor saves are far better, power weapons are great for this so why not put one demon prince? Or get a unit of Raptors to tie them up whilst you destroy everything else. At 500 points that unit of wraith isnt going to be all that effective, points wise they will cost a ton and you can generaly avoid them unless he puts them in a transport, put wings on your demon prince and they will eat them for lunch.

Bikes are great but at 500 points theres better things to waste your points on. You need more meat!

[Ferreon]

And most importantly, power force weapon weilding warriors as troops.

fix'd

and yes, that is awesome...now, twin swords, or sword +whip...that is the question

Suggestions?

[Voidhawk]

The new 'Nid codex makes me kind of sad.

Not because it's that bad, but because each unit looks awesome at first sight, like it's made of killy...and then the words "Instant Death" rear's it's head. And suddenly everything looks like it has one wound. And I get sad.

For instance, take The Doom of Malan'tai. It's meant to get stronger and stronger, and less and less killable. But it only takes an average of 3 krak missile wounds to kill it. I'm thinking of converting one just as a "Shoot-Me-Now" beacon, to help everything else survive the first turn.

On the other hand, I've been inspired to convert a coconut into a Mycetic Spore, so swings and roundabouts I suppose.

fix'd

and yes, that is awesome...now, twin swords, or sword +whip...that is the question

Suggestions?

As for twin-vs-whip, I suggest twin on Warrior-Prime's, and have them character hunt, while whips on everything else for Banshee killing goodness.

[onasuma]

They arent force weapons as your opponent makes the test. Unfortunatly, this means they are great for killing... pretty much nothing... as most multiple wound creatures with a decent save have a good ld value.

[Kzickas]

how would this work?

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deamon prince w/ mark of slaanesh, Lash, wings(155)
5 berserkers w/ skull champion, powerfist(145)
5 noise marines, with sonic blasters, blastmaster(205)
rhino(35)

[Voidhawk]

They arent force weapons as your opponent makes the test. Unfortunatly, this means they are great for killing... pretty much nothing... as most multiple wound creatures with a decent save have a good ld value.

Very true. If you actually want the Instant Death to ever happen you should take the pair, meaning they at least have to roll 3d6. If my calculations are correct, for a Ld 10 character that gives them a 52/216 chance of failure; around 1/4. If there's a Broodlord nearby giving them -1 to Ld, so much the better.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Got the new tyranid book. Was thinking of going with an army like this:

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Hive Tyrant with Heavy Venom cannon, whip and sword, armoured shell - 235

Can't change his weapons without converting him, which I don't want to do since he's an out of production 2nd edition tyrant.

Zoanthrope - 60

Venomthrope - 55 (probably going to ditch him for more upgrades later, but I like the model and want to test him a bit)

3 Warriors, rending claws, devourers, venom cannon - 120

3 Warriors, rending claws, spinefist, barbed strangular- 115

can't change the equipment on those without converting them, but could swap the spinefists for bone swords and swap the heavy weapons between broods

15 Termagaunts - 75 points

These are just going ot hold back and hold an objective while the rest of my army plays aggressive. Really should give them longer range guns but I don't have the models and don't want to waste too many points on them.

16 Genestealers, Broodlord - 270 points

16 Genestealers, Broodlord - 270 points

16 Genestealers - 224 points

These'll be my main offence

3 Raveners - 90 points

Old One Eye - 260 points

I'm mainly using him because I have the model and don't want to spend money on a more points cost effective Carnifex

Trygon, regeneration - 225 points

Was going to make him a Prime, but realised I didn't need the synapse and 40 points wasn't worth the boost to his ranged attack.

1999 points

I need a 40k army for a local tournament, so this might end up being what I use.

[onasuma]

So, the new nid list that Ive been working on:

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Shooty nid list
Tyranid prime (80), 2 boneswords + devourer (10)

5 warriors (150), 2 boneswords + devourer (50)
20 termagaunts + devourers (200), mycetic spore (40)
20 termagaunts + devourers (200), mycetic spore (40)
Tevigon (160) + cluster spines (0)

3 hive guard (150)
3 hive guard (150)
3 zoanthropes (180)

2 biovores

Basic plan is the tevigon sits back with the hive guard, zoanthropes and biovores (preferablly behind some cover) and spawns speed bumps while the warriors and gaunts get in up close and have 60 S4 shots per unit on the turn they deep strike.

Comments? Critisms? Complaints?

Nothing to say? Id really like some critique before I go and blow £300 on more plastic.

[crazedloon]

Nothing to say? Id really like some critique before I go and blow £300 on more plastic.

the biggest problem I think most people have with looking at the list (or any nid list) is the newness of the codex/ lack of access to one thus their opinion/suggestions may not be the best.

however I will do my best with never having seen the new codex so this is based on strategy and the old list so I may be off.

unless the guants range has increased significantly and their weapons gotten much stronger you will most likely need some melee oriented units.

I would change the tyrant into a flying killing machine. This will allow you to get something close and fast to tanks to pop them before they drop pie plates on your large units. Also this will give your enemies own heavy weapons to deal with in melee where they are no good (or not as good as it were)

I would also suggest 1 unit of some other close combat mooks to run blocker to counter any assault troops your opponent may have.

[Closet_Skeleton]

unless the guants range has increased significantly and their weapons gotten much stronger you will most likely need some melee oriented units.

His termagaunts have devourers, making them strength 4 range 18 assault 3, but double the cost of a normal termagaunt.

I would change the tyrant into a flying killing machine. This will allow you to get something close and fast to tanks to pop them before they drop pie plates on your large units. Also this will give your enemies own heavy weapons to deal with in melee where they are no good (or not as good as it were)

He doesn't have a tyrant, he has a tyranid prime which is just a super warrior.

A winged Hive Tyrant now starts at 230 points before upgrades (but with scything talons, a lash whip and a bonesword).

[hamishspence]

I know you moved off it a bit ago, but new nid Swarmlord ignores invunerable saves as well.

I've checked, and it doesn't. What it does do, is force successful Invulnerable saves to be rerolled.

Its still pretty nasty- expensive in points though.

[onasuma]

Rough summary for people who havent seen the list (i forget, not everyone preorders like I do)

Tyranid prime = super warrior, nice stat line, but no MC status.

Warriors = same as before but +1 W and are now troops. Devourers are 3 shots, S4

termagaunts are double the cost, but have assult 3, S4 weapons. Mycetic spores are drop pods but also S6 MC's

Tevigon has 18" synapse range (after a psycic power) and can make 3d6 gaunts a turn (with no upgrades)

hive guard are turant guard but with S8, ap4 guns that need no LoS

Zoanthropes are basically the same, but have S10 lance shots

biovores are now large blast, S4 ap4 48" range

[Winterwind]

So I've gotten the new Tyranid codex yesterday (as well as the Tau codex, which means I lack only the Inquisition and Dark Angels codizes for my collection now! ).

Pretty new toys for the Tyranids, but I noticed a few things I found rather strange.

Firstly, hardly any kind of Tyranid can take any upgrades that function as frag grenades now. Also, biomorphs that previously allowed one to increase the Strength and Initiative of models are gone, having been replaced by one that grants Furious Charge, and biomorphs to improve the armour save are gone entirely.
Seems to me like the Tyranid close-combat capabilities have taken a severe beating right there.

Second... merciful Chaos Gods, the Hierophant biotitan has been improved ridiculously by this new codex. Just by switching to this codex, the Hierophant loses out on nothing at all, but gains:
- a 3+ Invulnerable save (!) in place of his old 5+ one (so he is a 2+ armour, 3+ invulnerable creature with T9, 10 Wounds and Regeneration now ).
(EDIT: Though by rules as written, one could also claim the Hierophant actually loses his Invulnerable save, as this psychic power explicitly mentions Zoanthropes in its text now. Albeit that's the same logic which denies Typhus any benefit from his plague grenades...)
- may reroll all his failed close combat attacks now
I wonder if they thought the titan was too weak previously and had designed it with these changes already in mind, or whether they completely forgot to take into consideration what the rules changes meant for that monster, and it should be worth 500 points more now...

[IthilanorStPete]

Revamped my list, taking in mind Cheesegear's suggestions:

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HQ
Captain
Lightning claws, Artificer armor, melta bombs, bike
185 pts.

Chaplain
Bolt pistol, melta bombs, jump pack
120 pts.

Troops
Bike squad (8 bikes + Attack bike)
-Power weapon for Sgt., 2 meltaguns, Multi-melta
300 pts.

Bike squad (8 bikes + Attack bike)
-Power weapon for Sgt., 2 flamers
280 pts.

Fast Attack

Land Speeder w/ Assault cannon
90 pts.

Land Speeder w/ Assault cannon
90 pts.

Assault Squad (10 models)
-Lightning claws for Sgt.
220 pts.

Heavy Support
Vindicator
115 pts.

Thunderfire Cannon
100 pts.

Total: 1500 pts.

Incidentally, I had the Vanguard Vets in ther previously as a squad of power weapons for killing heavy infantry - I assume by your...reaction that that's not cost-effective enough?

[Lycan 01]

Random question inspired by playing Frankenstein with my friend and his Dark Angels and Space Marines:

The DA sprue has two tomes on it. Y'know, big holy books. Is there any in-game benefit from these? Or are they just there for coolness factor? I was thinking he could rig it so that one of his Sargeants was holding it in his outstretched left hand, as though he's reciting litanies from it, while aiming out with a bolt pistol or plasma pistol, or while 1-handing a Bolter. (To do this, take extended bolt pistol arm from Chaos marine sprue, trim off bolt pistol, trim grip from SM bolter, glue arm and gun together, ta-da!)

Oh, and I succeeded in taking an Imp Guard Heavy Weapon Team's heavy bolter and giving it to one of my friend's Dark Angels! He was sad that none of his kits came with HBs, and he wanted one for his squad. So I offered to experiment with one of his troopers and a HB from my Imp Guard bits. Well... I got it to work, but it looks a bit... odd. He's got "bolter holding" arms, with his trigger hand nestled against the back of the HB and his holding hand slung under it. I then stuck some ammo belts to the feeding mechanism, so there are bullets dangling down. Since he's basically holding it from the back, most of the gun is just jutting out... We rationalized that he's holding it up through sheer force of awesome, and the recoil also helps him to keep it aloft and steady.

The point is, he now has a HB, and I know how to graft HBs to Space and Chaos marines, and I think he'll give me his missile launcher in exchange for the HB, which I can then give to my little bro. Soooo... yeah. I'm awesome.


Also, my bro has been hoarding change for a couple of months, and he revealed yesterday that he's got 60-something bucks in coinage. So he's going to get that cashed, then use some of it for his Khorne Berserkers. Woo!


Btw, any advice on how he should gear up his Berserkers?

[DranWork]

gear them up with standard zerker kit, tho avoid plasma pistols. For their points there not really worth it sadly. Gets hot means youll get 1 maybe 2 shots off before the end of the game. They look good on paper but dont quite translate in game. Plasma Guns and Canons are better imo *shrug* Try to have the options on most modles (even if you just glue the plasma pistol to a zerkers leg) so you have the option of taking them if you want.

[Winterwind]

Btw, any advice on how he should gear up his Berserkers?

I'd go with a Skull Champion with Powerfist - with three attacks (four on charge) he can do a lot with that Powerfist, and as he gets 9 strength upon charging (thanks to Furious Charge) he is pretty effective against vehicles then, too.
Depending on whether he wants to have something Deepstrike (other than Raptors), a Personal Icon could be useful, too.
Plasmapistols seem rather overpriced.

[Lycan 01]

Wait, does the Power Fist double strength before or after Furious Charge?

Personal Icons let the unit DS within 6 inches of the unit without having to roll for scattering, right? So once they get called out of reserves, you just plop them down within 6 inches of the icon bearer? Sounds like that might come in handy later on when he gets Termies, but for now he doesn't really need it...

[DranWork]

yeap you double then add. So if he has strength 4 normal and 5 on a charge then you double his base strength to 8 then add the +1 str for the charge bonus.


Also why not attach the icon's poll with the icon to a backpack? that way he can take it but be optional if he uses it or not.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. Whoops. That means my Nob with the Power Klaw has a STR 9 instead of 10 last night. Oh well. His guys had T4, so the hits were still Instant Kills anyway... Right?

If I'm not mistaken, the S9 hits vs. his T4 Chaos Marines would have made any passed to-hit rolls an Instant Kill. The Nob had 5 attacks... or... wait... Did it? Aw, crap. I think I cheated... The Nob has a twin-linked bolter and a Power Fist. That doesn't grant an extra attack, does it? So that's only 4 attacks (base 3 + 1 for assaulting) instead of 5. Oops...

It doesn't help that all the to-hit rolls passed, instantly killing 5 of his men and leaving him with just an Aspiring Champion and Icon Bearer vs 10 or so Orks.


Oddly enough, nobody won that game. We (Orks, Space Marines, Chaos Marines) were fighting a 200 point game to control a Dreadnaught chasis in the center of the map, and the game ended after Round 5 with nobody on the objective.

[Erloas]

Hm. Whoops. That means my Nob with the Power Klaw has a STR 9 instead of 10 last night. Oh well. His guys had T4, so the hits were still Instant Kills anyway... Right?

If I'm not mistaken, the S9 hits vs. his T4 Chaos Marines would have made any passed to-hit rolls an Instant Kill. The Nob had 5 attacks... or... wait... Did it? Aw, crap. I think I cheated... The Nob has a twin-linked bolter and a Power Fist. That doesn't grant an extra attack, does it? So that's only 4 attacks (base 3 + 1 for assaulting) instead of 5. Oops...

T4 will have instant-death from anything Str8 or greater.
And instant death has nothing to do with to-hit rolls. You have to roll to-wound first, because if you roll a 1 to-wound they aren't wounded and so no instant death. Also they get any saves they would normally get, armor or ward. I don't think there are many close combat situations where you can be str8 and not ignore armor, but there are plenty of shooting scenarios where you have the str to cause instant death but don't negate the armor save. Such as a scatter laser vs a IG character.

[Lycan 01]

Wait, S8 insta-kills T4? The rulebook said it had to be over 2x the Toughness value, not equal to for it to be an Insant Kill attack.

So...

I roll To-Hits with the Power Klaw, then I roll To-Wounds just to see if I get any 1s. And since its a Power Weapon, no armor saves, but it still grants Invul saves.

I thought Instant Kill meant you killed them automatically, without need for a To-Wound roll? Oh wait... Ooooh, now I remember. If you do succeed at the To-Wound roll, and you do cause a Wound, it Instant Kills the unit even if it has multiple wounds. Correct?

[One Step Two]

Instant kill is when you hit and wound them with an attack that is double their toughness. If they fail their armour or invincibility save, they die outright, even if they have multiple wounds.

[DranWork]

Not quite. it doesnt instantly kill THE WHOLE UNIT it instantly kills the model wounded. So against the squad of CSM you would have rolled to hit 5 models then rolled to wound 5 models then removed one model per wound.

[Lycan 01]

I know but...

Lets say a squad of Terminators with power fists fights a squad of Nobs. The Termies do Instant Kills, the Nobs each have two wounds. Termies roll to hit, then roll to wound. They only get one wound (hypothetically) against the the Nobs, but even though they have 2 wounds each, one model is still removed.


The point is, it SCREWS over ICs and stronger units.

[Myatar_Panwar]

The point is, it SCREWS over ICs and stronger units.

Yes it does.

That is their point.

Its like saying "Oh no! Meltas are really bad against tanks!"

edit: And to clarify. Insta Killing is not something a powerfist model possesses. You roll to hit, and roll to wound. After the model takes and fails its armor or invul save, you check the strength of the attacking model and compare it to the defending model. If the strength is double or more, that model has all of its wounds taken away, rather than just one. If it only had one wound, then it doesn't matter.

[Lycan 01]

Aaaah... Okay, I thought that's how it was. Well, now at least. Last night I kinda had it wrong...


Whoopsie. *wonders how he'll explain that to his bro*

[DranWork]

not being an ork player but it seems odd to me that power klaws ignore armor saves and double strength of the wielder...

[IthilanorStPete]

Why? That's...how power fists are defined to work.

[Arcanoi]

Revamped my list, taking in mind Cheesegear's suggestions:

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HQ
Captain
Lightning claws, Artificer armor, melta bombs, bike
185 pts.

Chaplain
Bolt pistol, melta bombs, jump pack
120 pts.

Troops
Bike squad (8 bikes + Attack bike)
-Power weapon for Sgt., 2 meltaguns, Multi-melta
300 pts.

Bike squad (8 bikes + Attack bike)
-Power weapon for Sgt., 2 flamers
280 pts.

Fast Attack

Land Speeder w/ Assault cannon
90 pts.

Land Speeder w/ Assault cannon
90 pts.

Assault Squad (10 models)
-Lightning claws for Sgt.
220 pts.

Heavy Support
Vindicator
115 pts.

Thunderfire Cannon
100 pts.

Total: 1500 pts.

Incidentally, I had the Vanguard Vets in ther previously as a squad of power weapons for killing heavy infantry - I assume by your...reaction that that's not cost-effective enough?

Vanguards.... aren't very good, honestly. They're expensive, and generally not as good as doing what you want them to do as... well, anything else. The ONLY reason that you shouldn't just tear the Vanguard page out of your 'dex is because they can Assault on the turn they deepstrike, which CAN be very useful. But they are still overpriced, immensely so. A squad of six Vanguards without Jump-packs is never going to reach the enemy, because your opponent is going to Dakka the crap out of them.

And there you go, you just spent 250 points, a full SIXTH of what you've got to work with, on a unit that neither soaks up very much fire, nor actually reaches the enemy. A ten-man Assault Squad with Jump-packs, on the other hand, is not only CHEAPER, but it's LARGER, making it more effective against low-save things, and it can actually reach the enemy, being Jump Infantry.