Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Kzickas]

No probs. Fast Attack Space Marines are my specialty

got any advice on loadout and tactics for landspeeders?

[hamishspence]

biomorphs to improve the armour save are gone entirely.

Tyranid Warriors originally came with Sv 5+ as standard- now, it is Sv 4+

And Hive Tyrants can still take Armoured Shell for Sv 2+.

What makes less sense, is Toxin Sacs (Poisoned 4+) for Carnifexes as an option- since its Str 9, its not going to be wounding any non-Apocalypse creature on less than a 3+, unless there is a special effect somewhere that causes creatures to halve their Str in close combat.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, theres always that rule where you get to re-roll to wound with poison weapons if your STR is equal to or higher than their toughness.

[hamishspence]

Must have missed that.

Are there any good reviews of the new Tyranid codex, with comparisons to the old one, and how the new rules affect gameplay?

The following things tended to catch my attention:

Heavy Venom Cannons- can now destroy vehicles on penetrating hits, without having to immobilize them and destroy their weapons first. -1 on all rolls on vehicle damage table (unless open topped) is not as painful as "all hits count as glancing"- since glancing means, -2 on rolls on vehicle damage table.

Tyrannofex has a 48" Str 10 weapon- gives the Tyranids a little bit of slightly longer-ranged hitting power.

The combination of 4+ save and 1 extra wound makes Warriors much more durable against the basic weaponry of most troopers- while this may not make up for losing the protection from Instant Death caused by high Str weapons, its still handy.

I wonder how Harpies stack up? Monstrous Creatures, with Flight, twin-linked heavy venom cannons (or stranglethorn cannons) stinger salvo, and can drop spore mines once per game. On the minus side, they are only T5 and thus vulnerable to Instant Death from Str 10 weapons.

[One Step Two]

I wonder how Harpies stack up? Monstrous Creatures, with Flight, twin-linked heavy venom cannons (or stranglethorn cannons) stinger salvo, and can drop spore mines once per game. On the minus side, they are only T5 and thus vulnerable to Instant Death from Str 10 weapons.

I'm thinking of how many things actually have S10, and I am coming up with a very short list here. Wraithlords, Dreadnaughts and a few Tank weapons inside the Guard list is all I can think of off the top of my head, sure there's a few in the Nid codex but not a great deal still.

T5 is the veritable sweet spot for toughness as far as I am concerned, you take wounds on a 5+ from massed fire of S4, so marines which are most common opponent-wise are less effective already, and you're not going to be instant killed by S8 or S9 weapons which there are far more of than S10.

[hamishspence]

Demolisher cannons (Marines, CSMs, Guard) railguns, and maybe one or two ork weapons (like the Shokk gun at full power) are Str 10. Also Fire Prisms combining fire.

That said, all of these tend to be slightly rarer, thus Harpies should hopefully not be dying very fast. Especially if there are other targets to draw fire off them.

Hormagaunts not being Beasts makes a difference- they can't assault as quickly as they used to.

[Winterwind]

Hormagaunts are a lot cheaper now. And while they lost their 12" charge, they pretty much gained the ability to move 5-6" in the shooting phase, as one would be rather unlikely to roll less with 3d6-take-the-highest.
EDIT: Funny how this looks like it is a response to the previous post now, while it was just the first remark I made while being ninja'd.

Some of the big nasties they gained, while powerful, look rather costly to me (Tyrannofex would be one example. Many of the "special characters" look a bit overpriced to me, too). Some others look really dangerous and cheap though.

Being able to put poisonous attacks on pretty much every model in the army is hilarious, too. Just imagine the face of that Necron player when you shred his C'tan to bits with your tiny Termagaunts or Reapers.

Also, the Trygon looks so awesome, I'm feeling tempted to start a Tyranid army for the sheer awesomeness of this one model alone.

Nah... first, finishing my Black Legion, then actually starting to play the freakin' game, and then building up a small Emperor's Children contingent.

[hamishspence]

Until models for boneswords come out, would it make the most sense, to carefully remove both scything talons at the wrist,

and then reattach them on the opposite wrists, pointing up? It does ensure that the fingers are on the outside, and that the weapon looks like a sword, rather than a talon.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My models are old so they already have boneswords. But sadly in a non-viable combination (bonesword and singular spinefist).

[hamishspence]

I suppose the singular spinefist could be redescribed as "lashwhip which has been retracted"

It could be, that they are trying to "go back to the old style" with the reintroduction of twin boneswords, and bioplasma for Carnifexes becoming a ranged weapon again.

It seems like a theme with late 4th/early 5th ed. Shokk Guns. Conversion Beamers. The Doom power for Farseers. Bjorn the Fell Handed & Njal Stormcaller. Etc.

[Zorg]

Hormagaunts not being Beasts makes a difference- they can't assault as quickly as they used to.

They can go up stairs now though.

[hamishspence]

Does that suggest Daleks were Cavalry in early seasons, but became Infantry later on, thus gaining the ability to climb stairs?

Most recent seasons seem to make them closer to Jetbikes.

[Winterwind]

So I have this friend who always expressed some mild interest in WH40k, particularly in the Necrons, had gotten the codex and rulebook, but wasn't moving any further towards playing. Last time I saw him, I gave him a box of Necron Warriors and a self-painted Necron Lord (yes, Cheesegear, with Warscythe ) as belated birthday present, which caused his interest in WH40k to kick into high gear; he has gotten a pretty impressive number of boxes, painted the warriors I gave him in record time, and has been talking about hardly anything but WH40k strategy with me lately.

So far, so good.

Last time we spoke though, he presented me with his latest strategy for 2000 points... and it scares the hell out of me (which, I guess, is the point of a Necron army).

Specifically, he plans to take the Deceiver, three Monoliths, two fairly sized Scarab units and as many Warriors as he can fit in the remaining points (I think he said 46), split in four squads.
All of the Warriors are supposed to start in Reserve; two of their units entering the battlefield via Monoliths, the other two via regular method - so none of them are on the battlefield at the beginning and enter only slowly, making Phase Out rather difficult to achieve. And the Monoliths are to deepstrike straight into the enemy (read, mine) force and start blasting away with their particle whips. The Deceiver marches forward and slaughters everything in its wake, the Scarabs are to turboboost forward and keep crucial enemy units occupied.

...heavens, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to kill one Monolith, much less three of them and a C'tan! My army consists mostly of infantry and is designed to fight infantry; it has enough meltaguns, missile launchers and lasercannons to deal with tanks, but against a Monolith, those would require a lot of luck to achieve much.
I know the way one is supposed to deal with Necrons who invest a lot of points in non-Necron units is to force them into Phase Out, but what if the Necrons refuse to appear on the battlefield at all?

Now, I don't want an in-depth explanation of the strategy I should go for to beat him - that wouldn't be fair, as he isn't asking around how to best beat Chaos Space Marines either, and is not tailoring his army against mine, he just has a strategy, a concept, and is rolling with it.
But I was wondering... am I panicking for no good reason? Or have I inadvertently unleashed a monster upon the gaming world?

[Lorn]

Stuff about Necrons etc

In a 2000 point army, surely you have a good number of units with multiple high-strength (tank hunting) weapons?

Focus their fire on the 'Liths.

C'Tan, use medium-high strength weaponry on. How fast is it? Monoliths are more of a problem, so focus on them first before they spew warriors into your line. Also, grab some power weapons/power fists to deal with the Warriors - move into assault and the 'Liths can't shoot you.

Scarabs... hm. Just throw expendable units at them, perhaps. Minimal units of CSM or something that they can't hope to kill quickly.

Remember - if there isn't much on the table, then that means there isn't much to split your fire ;)

Bear in mind, I haven't read the Necron codex or played against them (or much at all) in a long time. Just some quick stuff that I thought of when I read your post.

But to answer your question: Probably aren't panicking too much. 42 warriors isn't THAT impressive. It's a little over two full squads. Should die fairly fast when you get down to it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Monaliths and C'tan don't count as Necrons, so you only need to kill 31 Necrons to make his entire army phase out.

No need to bother with the Monoliths

[Winterwind]

In a 2000 point army, surely you have a good number of units with multiple high-strength (tank hunting) weapons?

Four meltaguns, one lascannon, three missile launchers, one blastmaster, one combi-melta and three Obliterators (which will likely translate into three further lascannons in most situations). Oh yeah, and three powerfists, one of them on a Skull Champion.

The problem is, Monoliths have 14 armour all around and a special rule that basically says everything that would usually get 2d6 for armour penetration gets just 1d6 instead (meltas at half range, chainfists, monstrous creatures, everything). And they cannot be destroyed by accumulating weapon and engine hits, either.

Focus their fire on the 'Liths.

For as long as they leave anything standing, I'll try. Though with three 5" explosions with S9 AP3, it won't be long.

C'Tan, use medium-high strength weaponry on. How fast is it? Monoliths are more of a problem, so focus on them first before they spew warriors into your line. Also, grab some power weapons/power fists to deal with the Warriors - move into assault and the 'Liths can't shoot you.

C'Tan ignore all terrain for movement purposes (may even walk through unpassable terrain), but other than that they are just regular monstrous creatures with nothing else boosting their speed. So, 6+1d6" per round, if it keeps running.
The problem is their T8 prevents damage from everything other than the above mentioned anti-tank weaponry and the few plasmaguns I also have (technically, my Chaos Lord and my berserkers on a charge could hurt it, but the Lord would be Instant Killed, and besides the Deceiver can literally never be charged if its owner doesn't want it to)...

Scarabs... hm. Just throw expendable units at them, perhaps. Minimal units of CSM or something that they can't hope to kill quickly.

I'm not so much afraid of them killing stuff - I'm pretty sure all of my units can take them on just fine - but if they tie up the Havocs or, Tzeentch forbid, go for the Obliterators, every turn those cannot fire could prove critical.

Remember - if there isn't much on the table, then that means there isn't much to split your fire ;)

Bear in mind, I haven't read the Necron codex or played against them (or much at all) in a long time. Just some quick stuff that I thought of when I read your post.

Mhh, alright. Thank you anyhow.

But to answer your question: Probably aren't panicking too much. 42 warriors isn't THAT impressive. It's a little over two full squads. Should die fairly fast when you get down to it.

Especially considering how bad they are in close-combat - just about every unit in my army should be able to break their morale and run them down. The problem is, I have to catch those first...

Monaliths and C'tan don't count as Necrons, so you only need to kill 31 Necrons to make his entire army phase out.

No need to bother with the Monoliths

Easier said than done, when none of the Necrons begin the game on the battlefield.

[hamishspence]

And they cannot be destroyed by accumulating weapon and engine hits, either.

Where's it say that? I figured any weapon that cannot be damaged, does not count, and so, once weapon destroyed results push the number of shooting attacks it can make to 0 (not counting the indestructible particle whip), further weapon destroyed results count as immobilized.

And if it is both, any further Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized, destroys it.

I'm not sure if this is RAW, but it seems like a reasonable interpretation.

Also, AP1 Str 8 hits (melta) can destroy it, since -2 from Glancing, and +1 from AP1, means a roll of 6 on the Vehicle Damage Table will be "Vehicle Destroyed".

[Lorn]

I'm not so much afraid of them killing stuff - I'm pretty sure all of my units can take them on just fine - but if they tie up the Havocs or, Tzeentch forbid, go for the Obliterators, every turn those cannot fire could prove critical.

Thus ensure that they're stuck in a combat of your devising, not the Necron player's devising. Charge them with a small unit of CSM or something, and hopefully they'll stay locked in it. Unless they ignore armour or something horrible like that...

[IthilanorStPete]

Winterwind: what about fielding some Vindicators? Ordnance weapons still get to take the higher of two dice against Monoliths, and at Strength 10 you've got a decent chance to take it out.

[Lycan 01]

Don't you have to start with a certain number of Troops on the battlefield?

[hamishspence]

Not sure- it states any warriors beyond the minimum 2 squads must be in reserve, but I can't see anything in the mission rules that prohibits all units starting in reserve.

[Winterwind]

Where's it say that? I figured any weapon that cannot be damaged, does not count, and so, once weapon destroyed results push the number of shooting attacks it can make to 0 (not counting the indestructible particle whip), further weapon destroyed results count as immobilized.

And if it is both, any further Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized, destroys it.

I'm not sure if this is RAW, but it seems like a reasonable interpretation.

That was my interpretation as well, but then some generally rather rules-savvy person on another WH40k forum I read claimed it was otherwise. Though I admittedly cannot find anything stating one or the other anywhere on the Games Workshop site...

Also, AP1 Str 8 hits (melta) can destroy it, since -2 from Glancing, and +1 from AP1, means a roll of 6 on the Vehicle Damage Table will be "Vehicle Destroyed".

Yeah, but with a roll of 6 required to glance and another 6 to destroy, that's not exactly a likely outcome.

Thus ensure that they're stuck in a combat of your devising, not the Necron player's devising. Charge them with a small unit of CSM or something, and hopefully they'll stay locked in it. Unless they ignore armour or something horrible like that...

Will do.

Winterwind: what about fielding some Vindicators? Ordnance weapons still get to take the higher of two dice against Monoliths, and at Strength 10 you've got a decent chance to take it out.

Changing my army just to suit whatever he fields against me feels like tailoring my army against him (rather than playing one that was supposed to be generally competent), but if his army proves too unbeatable by mine, I might have to do just that.

Don't you have to start with a certain number of Troops on the battlefield?

Only in Dawn of War deployment, I think (not sure though).

[IthilanorStPete]

Vindies seem fine anyways, especially since (at least in my fairly inexperienced opinion) the CSMs are lacking a bit in the Heavy Support department anyways.

[Winterwind]

Vindies seem fine anyways, especially since (at least in my fairly inexperienced opinion) the CSMs are lacking a bit in the Heavy Support department anyways.

I'm almost certainly even less experienced, but considering Obliterators and Defilers are Heavy Support, I find that difficult to believe (and the most infamous tournament lists for Chaos - which I have no intention of playing though - seem to be all about getting as many of those as possible).

[IthilanorStPete]

I'm almost certainly even less experienced, but considering Obliterators and Defilers are Heavy Support, I find that difficult to believe (and the most infamous tournament lists for Chaos - which I have no intention of playing though - seem to be all about getting as many of those as possible).

...I completely forgot about Obliterators. Don't mind me.

[Falgorn]

CSM. Yesterday, I read their codex.
Awesome. I think I'm going to choose them. I also looked around GW a bit more, pestering people playing 40k more than the blackshirt, this time.
I didn't see a lot of Chaos players. In fact, I saw one or two. The only fourteen-year-old (I assume he's fourteen, seeing as I, a fourteen-and-a-half year old am taller than him) I saw there was playing Orks. Lots of people played Space Marines, and I saw a few Salamanders.
I remember a guy mentioning some sort of bonus that goes for the Salamanders, or something.
Did I mishear him, or something?

[IthilanorStPete]

I think the Salamanders used to have their own mini-codex; now, it's just represented by one of Vulkan He'stan's abilities. (He's one of the SM special chars; if you have him, all your units lose Combat Tactics, and all thunder hammers become master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, and multi-meltas become twin-linked)

[crazedloon]

I think the Salamanders used to have their own mini-codex; now, it's just represented by one of Vulkan He'stan's abilities. (He's one of the SM special chars; if you have him, all your units lose Combat Tactics, and all thunder hammers become master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, and multi-meltas become twin-linked)

and he is well beyond worth his point cost in gold and dead models.

also for the necron problem. As many others have said close combat is your best option and will work nearly 100% of the time. Necrons are arguably the one of the worst CC army in the game due to low init. Use that to your advantage and stop the deciever by dropping a lot of long range pain into him a she is the only option which might stop you from dominating in CC.

[Mattarias, King.]

I think the Salamanders used to have their own mini-codex; now, it's just represented by one of Vulkan He'stan's abilities. (He's one of the SM special chars; if you have him, all your units lose Combat Tactics, and all thunder hammers become master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, and multi-meltas become twin-linked)

Hellooo... Can this guy legally ally with Sisters at all? If so, why doesn't every list include him?!

[Winterwind]

also for the necron problem. As many others have said close combat is your best option and will work nearly 100% of the time. Necrons are arguably the one of the worst CC army in the game due to low init. Use that to your advantage and stop the deciever by dropping a lot of long range pain into him a she is the only option which might stop you from dominating in CC.

I'll give it my best shot, though again, I'm kinda worried about what is going to happen if those Necron Warriors should just sit in reserve for most of the game, while the Monoliths blast my army with their powerful particle whips.

Hellooo... Can this guy legally ally with Sisters at all? If so, why doesn't every list include him?!

I'm not entirely certain, as the Witch Hunters codex is one of the few codizes I do not (yet) possess, but by my understanding Inducted Space Marines may not include HQ choices, so no. If you used Witch Hunters as Allies for a Space Marine list, on the other hand, it would work.
In Apocalypse it would be legal anyhow, obviously.

(speaking of Apocalypse, anybody want to comment on how the new Tyranid codex affects the Hierophant biotitan? I think it's kinda... totally insane )