Quick Fix

[drengnikrafe]

I often see ideas for quick fixes that are low-effort to help improve the balance of the game. Then, suddenly, I had an idea.

How balancing would it be to give the fighter a bonus feat at every level, and opening it up to all feats instead of just fighter feats?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's been proposed a thousand times before, and does not address the key issue.

[drengnikrafe]

What is the key issue?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

[Siosilvar]

What is the key issue?

Spells >>>>>>>> feats, in both versatility and power (and scaling).

[drengnikrafe]

Right, of course. What, then, should the new maximum spell level be to balance it? Because, I imagine, there must be a specific level you could limit spells to to balance it out a little better.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Right, of course. What, then, should the new maximum spell level be to balance it? Because, I imagine, there must be a specific level you could limit spells to to balance it out a little better.

Three, I suppose.

[drengnikrafe]

Three, I suppose.

I've seen you post a lot of stuff. I understand that when you say things, you're generally right. As a result... This almost makes me cry. Mostly because, based upon my 30 seconds of thinking about what spells of various levels are, you're right.

[Morty]

What? No, this is ridiculous. How is a wizard who can't cast anything beyond third level balanced?

[tyckspoon]

If you're working with better base classes to match with the Wizard you can probably go up to five or six without too much trouble. It's trying to make the game include both the Fighter and the Wizard that gives you three; "Guy who has feats" just doesn't balance with "guy who thinks the laws of physics are just weak guidelines."

And if you open the Fighter's bonus feats up as general feats instead of Fighter Bonus Feats, you aren't going to fix the Fighter; you're just going to make it even more attractive as a dip class. 2 levels for universal weapon/armor proficiency, 2 BAB, and any 2 feats I want? Yeah. I'll take that. It'll make putting gishes together so much easier.. or you get a Barbarian who can now use his Fighter dip to take Rage feats. Druids who can snag Wildshaping feats. Probably not the intended result, unless you *already* think of Fighter as being effectively a template instead of a class.

[drengnikrafe]

Seeing suggestions like these reminds me to not say stupid things. Like that thing I started this thread with.
It also reminds me that I don't need to worry about these things. The only person who is even vaguely capable of optimizing characters in my party is me, and I'm the DM.

Sorry for wasting you guys' time.

[Eloel]

What? No, this is ridiculous. How is a wizard who can't cast anything beyond third level balanced?

Because even Grease is a 1st level spell, and Mr. Level 20 Fighter in Full Plate with 12 Dex needs to roll a 15 or better to move, at half speed. 9 or below, and he falls.

Fly, a 3rd level spell, makes most of fighter's stuff useless. He's down to using a bow.
Wind Wall, another 3rd level spell, makes arrows useless.

Total immunity to Vanilla Fighter 20 with 2 L3 spells.

[Morty]

And how is the wizard actually going to kill the fighter without spells above 3rd level? Congratulations, he's flying inside a Wind Wall that he can't take with himself. Now what?

[Eloel]

Scorching Ray. Touch attacks are 'very' easy to make. 12d6 damage. Kkthx.

Alternatively, Acid Arrow, and laugh as he dies.

[Frog Dragon]

Just lock fighty macfightpants down with grease and the like, fly and bomb fighty with orbs until he goes down. Easy.

Aggh. Swordsage'd.

[Dienekes]

It's not a verses game Morty. With 3rd level spells would be a perfect asset to the team and no one would call him weak, however he wouldn't be able to end encounters in a round.

Here, go look at the 4th level spell list and above and then look at what a Fighter can ever do. A Fighter would be able to do a lot of damage, sure. A wizard with 4th level spells can control the battlefield like no one's business.

[Morty]

Unless the fighter just flies up to you using a magic item he can easily have at this level. And killing a 20th level fighter using blasting spells of no higher level than 3rd is going to take a while.
Seriously, it seems like the "fighters suxx, wizards roxx" arguments are getting more extreme with every month. Or week. Even if it is possible for a 20 th level wizard to kill a 20th level fighter using 3rd level spells or lower, how many people who don't read theoretical optimization threads on gaming boards are going to do it?

[Harperfan7]

Try E6. lkasdfnl;ak

[Eloel]

Unless the fighter just flies up to you using a magic item he can easily have at this level.

Magic Item you say? Dispel Magic. Shatter.

No more Magic Item.
More concerns?

Edit:

Even if it is possible for a 20 th level wizard to kill a 20th level fighter using 3rd level spells or lower, how many people who don't read theoretical optimization threads on gaming boards are going to do it?

Anyone who has read all his -core- spells, and has common sense, can do it, without much problem.

Try E6.

Nice idea. E6 DOES balance 'alot' of things.

[ericgrau]

Action economy. By the time you wind wall (unless you banned evocation), dispel (unless it fails) and shatter (unless he saves) you are already dead. And that's assuming you even prepared those 3 spells.

[Eloel]

Action economy. By the time you wind wall, dispel and shatter you are already dead.

How so?

Round 1, Wizard flies up. Fighter either flies, or pulls bow.
Round 2, Wizard dispels the magic item if flying, or puts up Wind Wall if he pulled a bow. Fighter does the remaining thing.
Round 3, Wizard does the remaining counter. Fighter does whatever he pleases to do.
Round 4, Shatter. Good Game.


Dispel doesn't ever fail once you get Arcane Mastery (admittedly not core). We're talking about Will saves & a Fighter, I feel like laughing.

[ericgrau]

Overland flight has average manuevaribility, like a bird. Dungeons tend to be enclosed spaces, and the most common setting from which the game gets its name. Fly takes an action, assuming you even win initiative, and still faces the annoying ceiling problem. You can pull a bow and fire in the same round, even ready an action to disrupt casting. Spells fail via checks and saves, so getting all 3 to land is unlikely. Etc., etc.

[Eloel]

Overland flight has average manuevaribility, like a bird. Dungeons tend to be enclosed spaces, and the most common setting from which the game gets its name. Fly takes an action, assuming you even win initiative, and still faces the annoying ceiling problem. Also, boots of flying on the crazy rich level 20 guy.

Wizard wins initiative easy, he has higher Dex than Fighter, because he only cares about Int.

Boots of flying on the crazy rich L20 fighter, but Wizard is a poor guy? Oh really?

[ericgrau]

Even the likelihood of preparing a rarely used spell from a commonly banned school is poor. This is contrived and assumes one-sided perfect planning and luck on too many stages. Even with one-sided perfect planning the chances of winning initiative and landing all 3 are less than 10%.

[drengnikrafe]

A new Wizard Vs. Fighter thread was not my intention when I started this thread. It really wasn't.

[Morty]

A new Wizard Vs. Fighter thread was not my intention when I started this thread. It really wasn't.

It's a fact of life - when you mention those two classes in your beginning post, there's a 90% chance of the thread turning into Wizard Vs. Fighter regardless of your original intention.
I apologize for starting it. I really should have known better.

[Eloel]

Even the likelihood of preparing a rarely used spell from a commonly banned school is poor. This is contrived and assumes one-sided perfect planning and luck on too many stages.

Leave all luck aside, and let the Wizard cast Web, from Conjuration. It's game over for the fighter, who gets to move what, 10ft/round, while Wizard puts all buffs previously talked about on himself.

Also, we're derailing, please let's take it to tells after this.

[Dienekes]

A new Wizard Vs. Fighter thread was not my intention when I started this thread. It really wasn't.

Whenever you start talking about balance fixing people inevitable turn it into "my guy can kill your guy." People seem to confuse that with balance for some reason.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I think monks are cool. They not afraid and kill wizards and everything.

[Eloel]

Whenever you start talking about balance fixing people inevitable turn it into "my guy can kill your guy." People seem to confuse that with balance for some reason.

The thing is, if a class that is primarily focused on killing (fighter), is worse at it than a utility class (wizard), it's not balanced. The balancing should be done on that basis.

I think monks are cool. They not afraid and kill wizards and everything.

Thx for the laugh.
Yes I know it's sarcastic, or otherwise making fun of us.