Gestalt Warrior Arena mk III Fight 17

[nefele]

PhoenixRivers vs. Nefele

A towering figure in a dark robe enters the room where you have been milling around sizing up the competition. His face is completely obscured by his hood. He raises both hands to get your attention and speaks in a deep voice.
Aqualite, Moira. You have been chosen to fight. Prepare yourselves! With that he brings his hands down and the two of you find yourself transported to the arena

OOC:
You've got time for one swift action and one standard action before you get transported in case you need to adopt a stance or activate an item.

On the map, green is open terrain, yellow is difficult terrain, red/brown is the cliffs (10ft, Climb DC20, blocks LoS). Arena has a 60 foot ceiling.

Opening post should have an initiative roll, anything you said after he called your name and what, if anything you did with the 'surprise round' before being transported. After that, start fighting in initiative order.

Starting Positions:
Aqualite starts at Z-37
Moira starts at AF-24

[nefele]

PREP ROUND

The gloura bows silently to the... strangely... glowing paladin and assumes a martial stance. Her headband also glows momentarily.

Spoiler

Show

Swift action: Assassin's Stance
Standard action: activate Scout's Headband for True Seeing (10 rounds)
Designate Aqualite as my Dodge target

Initiative: (1d20+33)[42]

EDIT - OOC: If you activate a martial stance of maneuver when I can see you, please tell me which one it is. (I have Martial Lore 18+, so it's an automatic success.)

[PhoenixRivers]

Prep round:

Aqualite silently observes his foe, and performs a brief bow.

OO:

Spoiler

Show

Designate Moira as Dodge target.
Expertise for 5.
Swift: Adopt Stance (Child of Shadow)
Standard: Activate Divine Shield (1 turn attempt)

Maneuvers Readied: Cloak of Deception
Hand of Death
Shadow Jaunt
Burning Blade
Searing Blade

I adopted the Child of Shadow Stance.

Init:(1d20+12)[15]

EDIT: You're up.

[nefele]

OOC: Clarification. Haven't you drawn your sword? Do you perhaps assume you wield it permanently? I have no problem with that assumption, but we should inform the others that they can do it too, because people spend move actions to draw their weapon - and actions are important, and they wouldn't do it if they knew they had this option. :)

[PhoenixRivers]

OOC: I assume gear is worn, and all protective devices are properly equipped and ready for use.

I'm fine with my sword being sheathed. It wouldn't do to have it drawn while in the waiting area.

However, my shield is to be considered: always equipped and readied, unless I state otherwise. It's a protective device. Just as I don't have to waste time donning armor, I shouldn't have to waste time readying it.

As for the move action? According to the post, I have a swift and a standard. Not a swift/standard/move. I've used the swift and the standard. I'll use a later action to draw my sword.

[nefele]

OOC: Oh, right. OK, then. (Again, you can certainly begin armed if you want, it was just a clarification.)

ROUND 1

Moira spots the Paladin perched upon a cliff down yonder and speaks a command word. The black pearls of her belt turn white and she initiates a martial maneuver. She flies 10 ft up and then straight towards him. At the last moment, she draws her sword, and shouts a mighty shout before striking.

FOR THE FALLEN!!!!

attack: (1d20+55)[61]
damage: (12d6)[48] + 118 piercing damage + 11 fire damage

Position: AA-37
You are flat-footed (from losing initiative) against this attack. We said that True seeing trumps Child of Shadows, didn't we? If not, miss chance (high hits, low misses):
(1d100)[3]

Spoiler

Show

free action: inspiration point to AC for 1 round (+6)
standard action: activate gauntlets of true strike (+20 to hit for the next attack)
swift action: belt of battle for 1 full-round action
full round action: Bounding Assault (double move+attack)

movement: 10 ft up + 100 diagonally to AA-37 = 110 ft

attack modifiers:
+4 from Slippers of Battledancing (cha instead of dex)
+2 from Shadow Hand stance (Shadow Hand weapon enhancement)
+2 from Diamond Mind maneuver (Diamond Mind weapon enhancement)
+2 from Bounding Assault
+20 from Gauntlets of True Strike

Damage modifiers:
+12 from Slippers (cha instead of Str)
+7 from Shadow Blade feat (+dex)
+2d6 from Assassin's Stance (target flat-footed)
+99+9d6 IF (target flat-footed, max damage because I have IF 49+)

AC 63 (+1 dodge, +6 inspiration point)
Flat-footed 63
Touch 60

[PhoenixRivers]

The Attack Misses.

OOC: Your slippers of battledancing do not apply.

...A wearer who has at least 5 ranks in Perform (dance) accesses the true benefit of the slippers of battledancing. As long as he uses his base land speed to move (a fl y, swim, burrowing, or climb speed), he gains a +2 insight bonus on initiative checks. If he moves at least 10 feet as part of a move action, he can use his Charisma modifier instead of his Strength or Dexterity modifier for attack rolls and damage rolls with one-handed or light weapons (both melee and ranged).

Your movement was not part of a move action, but rather part of a full round action maneuver. As you exactly hit my current Flat footed AC without it (due to me not getting expertise or dodge, due to being flat footed), and you are denied it, that makes the attack a miss.

[nefele]

OOC: Actually, second thought again... if you haven't moved this round yet (I don't suppose teleportation counts), Child of Shadows doesn't apply at this point. Correct?

[PhoenixRivers]

OOC: Correct. I did not apply it.

[nefele]

OOC: About your objection... tricky. Bounding Assault is a full around action which allows you take a double move and then attack. But this double move action in itself is, well, a move action, the way I read it. You can do with it anything that applies to a move action (jump, tumble... why shouldn't the Slippers apply?)

And another clarification. This "other""Misc" +6 to AC on your char sheet, does it perhaps come from Swordsage's Wisdom to AC? I don't see anything else that fits. If so, it shouldn't apply when you carry a shield. Correct?

EDIT- I misread your post above and wrote something completely irrelevant. I edited, but if you already saw it... I'm really really sorry for the confusion.

[PhoenixRivers]

OOC: About your objection... tricky. Bounding Assault is a full around action which allows you take a double move and then attack. But this double move action in itself is, well, a move action, the way I read it. You can do with it anything that applies to a move action (jump, tumble... why shouldn't the Slippers apply?)

And another clarification. This "other" +6 to AC on your char sheet, does it perhaps come from Swordsage's Wisdom to AC? I don't see anything else that fits. If so, it shouldn't apply when you carry a shield. Correct?

EDIT- I misread your post above and wrote something completely irrelevant. I edited, but if you already saw it... I'm really really sorry for the confusion.

OOC: A double move is not listed in the SRD. If it is listed as 2 moves, then yes, as listed, if you used two move actions to move twice your speed, then it would apply. However, you did not. You used a Full Round Action. No amount of discussion will make that a move action. Slippers of Battledancing allow you to utilize their added effect following a move action. That does not allow you to do so on other actions, such as a Charge, or the like.

Similarly, drawing a weapon as part of a move action is not allowed when you are not taking a move action. Move Action is a very specific term. It doesn't refer to "any movement", but rather, only movement done as part of a Move Action. If you Withdraw or Run? You can't. If you charge, you can't.

Action Types

An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.

Which is your attack? It's a full round action. That means that it is not a move action.

This also costs you 12 points of damage from the slippers of battledancing's damage mod. Could you go over the 99+9d6 IF bonus as well? I'm currently re-auditing my sheet for the +6.

[nefele]

OOC: Original damage: 1d6+11 fire
Damage modifiers:
+12 from Slippers (cha +11 instead of Str -1)
+7 from Shadow Blade feat (+dex)
+2d6 from Assassin's Stance (target flat-footed)
+99+9d6 Iaijutsu Focus (target flat-footed, max damage and no need to roll because I have IF 49+)

Did I do the math right? From all that, 2d6 is sneak attack (Sorry, that was dumb of me, I should have written it separately, but I didn't think you have anything Vs sneak attacks. Do you?)

For the record, I can see your point but I'm not convinced about the Slippers. But anyway, even without their bonus to damage, are you still alive? Not from what I count, but I may be missing something. :)

EDIT: Here's how Iaijutsu Focus is calculated:
Check Result - Extra Damage
10–14 gives+1d6
15–19 gives +2d6
20–24 gives +3d6
25–29 gives +4d6
30–34 gives +5d6
35–39 gives +6d6
40–44 gives +7d6
45–49 gives +8d6
50+ gives+9d6 (maximum)

Iaijutsu Master:

Strike from the Void (Ex): An iaijutsu master of 5th level or higher adds her Charisma modifier to each extra damage die gained from using the Iaijutsu Focus skill.

[PhoenixRivers]

OOC: After Auditing my sheet, I have not found the +6. This is what I have:

10+26(shield, with divine shield active) +1 (size) + 18 (deflection) = 55
+1 Dodge, +11 dex, + 5 expertise = do not apply vs this attack.

Your attack received bonuses of +26. I see a +23 base for BAB, dex modifier, and enhancement bonus on the weapon. This yields a total bonus of +49. Add +1 for weapon focus, and I have +50. Please denote where the remaining +5 is.

EDIT: Denote the source for Iaijutsu Focus.

[PhoenixRivers]

For the record, I can see your point but I'm not convinced about the Slippers. But anyway, even without their bonus to damage, are you still alive? Not from what I count, but I may be missing something. :)

What is there to convince you about? What must I do or say? There is explicit text denoting the conditions under which you may apply it. "Move 10 feet as part of a move action"

You did not fulfill those conditions, by the text of the ability you used.

What's left to discuss?

[nefele]

OOC: I just edited my post above for Iaijutsu Focus. It's from Oriental Adventures, p. 49 (PrC: Iaijutsu Master) and p.58 (New Skill: Iaijutsu Focus).

Normal Attack: +15 BAB + 3 enhancement (1 normal and 1 each from Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand properties because I know relevant maneuvers) + 7 dex = +25
For martial discipline Weapon Property, see ToB p.148.

Attack modifiers:
+4 from Slippers of Battledancing (cha instead of dex)
+2 from Shadow Hand stance (Shadow Hand weapon property)
+2 from Diamond Mind maneuver (Diamond Mind weapon property)
+2 from Bounding Assault
+20 from Gauntlets of True Strike


P.S. Wow, that felt... exposing.

[PhoenixRivers]

OOC: Slippers of Battledancing do not apply, to either hit or damage. You are attempting to handwave away their requirements to allow you to use them. D&D does not work that way. Provide a RAW supported answer for why your non-move action should be considered a move action for the item, or omit them.

Further, show how you are drawing your weapon in the maneuver.

[nefele]

OOC: Slippers of Battledancing do not apply, to either hit or damage. You are attempting to handwave away their requirements to allow you to use them. D&D does not work that way. Provide a RAW supported answer for why your non-move action should be considered a move action for the item, or omit them.

I'm sorry, but that was more rude than strictly necessary. If I didn't think that what I do is RAW, I wouldn't have done it. I would hope that this is self-evident.

What is there to convince you about? What must I do or say?

Nothing, really. This is one of those cases where a referee is needed.

Now, how I drew the weapon. From SRD:

Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement.

As part of movement does not equal as part of a move action. I hope we agree that I moved with this maneuver, therefore I can draw my weapon as a free action as part of that movement, and I could have done it even without Quick Draw.

Suffice it to say that if I had known all that beforehand (assuming the referee agrees with you), I would have simply spent another inspiration point to attack, and would hit regardless. In fact, I would hit with anything barring a dreaded Natural 1. And if I didn't think that you can use Bounding Assault in combination with IF, I obviously wouldn't have done it.

And since we're nitpicking..

due to me not getting expertise

What Expertise would that be? Combat Expertise? If I'm not mistaken, you have to use the attack action or full attack action if you want it to apply.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm sorry, but that was more rude than strictly necessary. If I didn't think that what I do is RAW, I wouldn't have done it. I would hope that this is self-evident.


Nothing, really. This is one of those cases where a referee is needed.

It's not rude. It's direct. You have not supported your stance in any way, and are interpreting it in a way that directly contradicts RAW. I'm asking you to support your stance in such a way as to show it is even possible under RAW. You have not done so. I've asked that if you can't, to remove it. You have not done so.

Now, how I drew the weapon. From SRD:

As part of movement does not equal as part of a move action. I hope we agree that I moved with this maneuver, therefore I can draw my weapon as a free action as part of that movement, and I could have done it even without Quick Draw.

I'm afraid that's not primary source.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

Does this attack qualify as a "regular move"? No. Thus, with quick draw, you may. Without quick draw, you may not.

Suffice it to say that if I had known all that beforehand (assuming the referee agrees with you), I would have simply spent another inspiration point to attack, and would hit regardless. In fact, I would hit with anything barring a dreaded Natural 1. And if I didn't think that you can use Bounding Assault in combination with IF, I obviously wouldn't have done it.

But you did not do so. So now, the parts of your attack that are invalid must be invalidated.

And since we're nitpicking..

What Expertise would that be? Combat Expertise? If I'm not mistaken, you have to use the attack action or full attack action if you want it to apply.

Does it matter, when either way, it's not being applied? I'm arguing points that actually matter for purposes of the attack. Please stick to that which is relevant.

[nefele]

And why, pray, does a "regular move" equal "a move action"?

And why does the non-primary source not count, especially when it doesn't contradict the primary source in any way? Isn't that RAW as well?

But no matter.

Very well, then, there are two points that need an official ruling. We'll wait for Lyndworm to take care of this, yes?

[PhoenixRivers]

And why, pray, does a "regular move" equal "a move action"?

And why does the non-primary source not count, especially when it doesn't contradict the primary source in any way? Isn't that RAW as well?

But no matter.

Very well, then, there are two points that need an official ruling. We'll wait for Lyndworm to take care of this, yes?

It doesn't contradict, true.

One states that there's regular movement.

The other states movement. Given the two, there is no contradiction, as long as you surmise that "regular movement" is the only type allowed. Otherwise, there is contradiction, and primary source wins.

Now, there is room for interpretation on "regular movement", but I stand by the opinion that a form of movement that did not exist when the text was printed isn't referred to by it.

[nefele]

Let's not confuse Lyndworm more than necessary.
The rules don't mention "regular movement" anywhere. They mention "part of that movement" and "combined with a regular move".

But you did not do so. So now, the parts of your attack that are invalid must be invalidated.

If the official ruling is against me, then this is certainly the case. I'm not arguing that I should retcon my actions, gods forbid!

I wrote this simply to explain that I'm not trying to cheat here, OK? I don't argue about this because I want to win against the rules. I argue about this because it's my honest opinion that this is how it works.

I don't claim to be the Master (Mistress!) of D&D Who Knows Everything. I'm human and I make mistakes like everyone. And if I ever do something which isn't RAW, that's because I understood it was. Not because I "handwave" it because it suits me.

I'm very offended by that insinuation, hence the "rude" (and not "direct") part.

[PhoenixRivers]

Let's not confuse Lyndworm more than necessary.
The rules don't mention "regular movement" anywhere. They mention "part of that movement" and "combined with a regular move".

To be more precise, the primary source references "Combined with a regular move". The secondary source references "part of that movement".

If the official ruling is against me, then this is certainly the case. I'm not arguing that I should retcon my actions, gods forbid!

I wrote this simply to explain that I'm not trying to cheat here, OK? I don't argue about this because I want to win against the rules. I argue about this because it's my honest opinion that this is how it works.

I don't claim to be the Master (Mistress!) of D&D Who Knows Everything. I'm human and I make mistakes like everyone. And if I ever do something which isn't RAW, that's because I understood it was. Not because I "handwave" it because it suits me.

I'm very offended by that insinuation, hence the "rude" (and not "direct") part.

I'm not suggesting you're cheating. Only that you are neither supporting your point, nor are you recanting it in the face of explicit contradictions. When you then, after seeing that contradiction, continue to apply it, I can only assume you are disagreeing without support. That's what I view as a "handwave" to the rules. It's different from believing that you are doing it wrong, and acting despite that (which is cheating).

[nefele]

I did support my point! I did it once, because your further objections addressed the exact same point, and I saw no point in repeating myself.
EDIT- Hmm, lots of points in one sentence.

Anyway, we're well and good, and waiting for Lyndworm.

[PhoenixRivers]

For simplicity:

Contentions:

Spoiler

Show

Contention 1: Slippers of Battledancing do not apply to the attack in question.

My reasoning: The double move allowed is part of a Full Round action (Source: Tome of Battle, Bounding Assault). The Slippers require the bearer to move 10 feet as part of a move action.

Counter Reasoning: A double move action is comprised of two seperate move actions, and this is similar.

Rebuttal: This is not a double move action. No Move Actions are taken. The maneuver this is most similar to is a charge. In that maneuver, a PC moves up to twice his movement and then attacks. Slippers would not apply there either, as it is not a Move Action.

Contention 2: Without Quick Draw, a character may not draw a weapon, except as part of a normal movement. While the term "normal movement" does need clarification, this almost certainly does not mean 'through a maneuver that didn't exist when the term was penned. Even with quick draw, the action may not be taken in the midst of a maneuver.

Contention 3: Also, if my opponent could please show why his iaijutsu focus dice are maximized? After reading the skill entry and Iaijutsu Master, I haven't seen such an ability. If he refers to the "(maximum)" in the entry, I'm about 99% sure that means "this is the maximum number of dice you may gain from Iaijutsu Focus" and not "You get to take the numerical maximum for each die rolled".

[nefele]

Iaijutsu Focus: To determine damage, you roll a Iaijutsu Focus skill check (see the "table" above). There's a cap to this damage, for rolling 50 or more: this cap is 9d6, or - if you are a Iaijutsu Master with Strike From The Void - it is 9(d6+Cha bonus).

I didn't roll because I have a modifier of +49 to that skill (17 ranks, 11 Cha, 3 from skill focus and 18 from Item Familiar), therefore I would hit 50 no matter what. My Cha bonus is 11, so my Iaijutsu Focus damage is 99 + 9d6, regardless of the roll.

[PhoenixRivers]

You'll then hit regardless, and win regardless.

With -12 from damage for lacking Slippers, and another -5 for my DR (unless that weapon's Cold Iron), I still go to -11.

The point does need clarification, however.

And I'll be modifying the character slightly, to account for this.

EDIT: There, character modified.

[nefele]

Ugh.. Rereading everything with a clear head:

I must apologise. The bonus from Slippers of Battledancing does not (I repeat: does NOT) apply with this maneuver. It seemed strangely obvious to me this morning, and for the life of me I couldn't understand why the hell I was so convinced last night. Only RAI would justify this.

I'm sorry for the... err... mayhem?

But (with a clear head again), I still believe that drawing a weapon is completely allowed here. No reference is made anywhere in the rules about a move action. Neither the primary source (is that an official term, by the way?) nor the secondary mention a "move action" anywhere, and I don't understand why we should assume that they mean a move action. Isn't that completely arbitrary?

And if we suddenly switched to RAI (because that's what we're dealing with if we talk about "maneuvers that didn't exist when the term was penned")... Really, can't a fighter draw his weapon while charging?

Oh, and another thing, one I'm not sure about. Is there somewhere a ruling that prevents you from taking free actions (in general) during other actions? Speaking is a free action. Can't you run and yell "run!" at the same time, for example?

Because if without Quick Draw you are limited to take the free action of drawing a weapon only as part of a movement, then with Quick Draw you can draw your weapon any time, as long as it is your turn. This makes perfect sense to me, but I'm not sure about the "free actions at the same time with other actions" thing.

I agree that a clarification is desperately needed here.


So, with that out of the way... I'll hit only if Lynd agrees with me about legally drawing my weapon during Bounding Assault.

If he doesn't, then the maneuver is expended, I never attacked and I'm currently right next to you. Unarmed and looking very very confused.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'll grant you that one. Drawing seems reasonable enough, given the fact that you have quick draw. I'd contend it if you didn't.

Rematch?

[nefele]

...Amazing.

Yeah, sure, I'm in for a rematch. But first, I'll have to rethink my maneuver selection. And I have a few questions:

1) Can I freely draw my weapon any time, as long as it is my turn? Is it before or after any action and during any movement? Or is it during any action as well?
2) Does True Seeing trump Child of Shadows, or not?
3) Err... Craft Contingent Spell? Are these are allowed (or expected) in a Warrior Arena? There is no specific rule about them, but since custom magic items are out... I don't know.
4) I'll hold my 4th question until after the rematch, since it involves improving your build. Which you hardly need at this point.

[PhoenixRivers]

...Amazing.

Yeah, sure, I'm in for a rematch. But first, I'll have to rethink my maneuver selection. And I have a few questions:

1) Can I freely draw my weapon any time, as long as it is my turn? Is it before or after any action and during any movement? Or is it during any action as well?

With Quick Draw? Any time, on your turn, provided you can move, and are allowed free actions.

2) Does True Seeing trump Child of Shadows, or not?

By RAW? Yes.

Spoiler

Show

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

Child of shadows is magical darkness.

3) Err... Craft Contingent Spell? Are these are allowed (or expected) in a Warrior Arena? There is no specific rule about them, but since custom magic items are out... I don't know.

I see no banning, and the item is no more or less custom than a potion.
In addition, the choices I selected are decidedly martial in nature.

As for question 4, I'm debating swapping out the swordsage for barbarian, to keep dex to AC.