Vow of Poverty Fix

[Kobold-Bard]

I added the Wish ability, epic progression should be all good now, unless someone else has a good idea.

Woo! I helped

since I'm using this thing in an epic game ATM, this epic progression makes me happy.

[Vaynor]

I'm using it in the same epic game. Pending approval of the epic progression by the DM, that is.

[Tome]

I like the Epic progression, but it still seems like it could use something more, particularly for the insane folks who take it beyond 30th level. When you consider all the craziness that Epic WBL allows... Maybe add in a progression for extra uses of the Wish SLA/Energy Immunity? Or better yet, add a slightly earlier access to Limited Wish which has a progression for extra uses. A Limited Wish SLA is a bit harder to break than a Wish SLA, whilst also allowing for most of the same effects.

[Vaynor]

I was considering adding in access to a domain of their choice, but I didn't want to add too much.

If someone wants to take it beyond 30th level they can go ahead, things get mighty crazy at that point.

[Tome]

Domain access seems a bit restrictive. He does need something to produce all the low-level effects that other characters are going to be squeezing out of wands, scrolls and other minor magic items without just relying on that Wish SLA though, which is where my Limited Wish suggestion comes in.

Maybe have it as a SLA with similar restrictions as the Wish one, available at 23rd Level and gaining an extra use per day every three levels?

[Vaynor]

Well by domain access I mean that they would gain a 1/day SLA for all of the 9 spells in the domain, and gain maybe 2-3.

More restrictive than Wish, obviously (what isn't?), but it would allow them to select whatever domain they wanted and give them a nice boost, especially for non-casters.

[Kobold-Bard]

I like the domain idea. If you get one at 23rd, 26th & 29th then by the time you become a God you have the requisite 3 Domains needed to build a portfolio.

[Tome]

Huh, that actually sounds really, really good. I like that.

Rock on.

[Vaynor]

Ok I've added the domains in. Any thoughts?

[Duskranger]

Maybe that if you pick the same domain twice you get the SLA's for twice a day?

Or would that be impossible, to stack the same domain multiple times.

Where can I find the planar domains by the way?

[Kobold-Bard]

Ok I've added the domains in. Any thoughts?

What's a Planar Domain?

[Vaynor]

Planar domains are found in the Spell Compendium (pg. 282), they count as two domains (they grant 2 spells each level and have better domain abilities).

I've also added the ability to select a domain more than once to get more than one use of its SLA's but you don't get the domain ability twice.

Also, if you're a cleric the spells count as domain spells for the purposes of spells known and domain slots when preparing spells.

[Ashiel]

I would suggest adding some sort of clause to the effect of turning into an outsider. As it is it can actually be seen as a nerf, because while they do gain some immunities to spells that target the humanoid type, the vulnerabilities they gain to new spells (such as magic circle) and suddenly no longer being able to be targeted by staple buffs such as enlarge person can hurt more than it helps.

[Custos Sophiae]

Say that at level 20, they become a living bridge between the prime and the appropriate outer plane. That is, they count as both outsider and whatever their original type was, whichever is more beneficial.

Other possible additions:

Planar environmental endurance: Ability to ignore harmful planar environments, perhaps just on the inner planes. This extends the non-epic environmental endurance.

Alignment metamagic: Half the damage from their spells, and SLAs is alignment damagel. These spells and SLAs count as being of alignment type.

Alignment exemplar. They are widely respected for their devotion to their alignment. They get a bonus equal to one-half their ECL for diplomacy checks with anyone of the same alignment, including outsiders, and to their leadership score, though they still need the relevant feats. Essentially, this means its easier for them to pick up lots of followers, and to negotiate with powerful beings nominally on their side, getting help from that ancient gold dragon or solar.

[Ralasha]

This gives me an idea for a PrC that gives elemental characteristics, and eventually turns them into a native outsider, and simultaneously an Elemental.

Come to think of it, depending on the plane to which they belong that would open the Paragon templates for such characters.

Like the bloodline's out of UA, but instead of stopping at a semi-elemental state, or becoming a mere genasi, they would become a full blooded Elemental, outsider.

Already working on a Void Fist Monk, so that will have to wait.

[BLiZme.2]

As to the outsider problem just make sure the type is Outsider {augmented type}
Where type it’s the creatures original type and rules as wrote allow all your old buffs (though the vulnerabilities are still a problem)

[Shpadoinkle]

So I've been thinking about the "I'm sorry, little orphan girl, your brother had to die because I'm not allowed to have money for longer than X."

How about letting a VoP character have money, and spend it however he wants... as long as it benefits the downtrodden, impoverished, etc.?

A VoP character can use his share of treasure to build an orphanage or a hospital or a homeless shelter or a church or whatever, or he can donate it to an existing facility. Obviously he can't use such acts or organizations as fronts for glorifying himself.

[Duskranger]

So I've been thinking about the "I'm sorry, little orphan girl, your brother had to die because I'm not allowed to have money for longer than X."

How about letting a VoP character have money, and spend it however he wants... as long as it benefits the downtrodden, impoverished, etc.?

A VoP character can use his share of treasure to build an orphanage or a hospital or a homeless shelter or a church or whatever, or he can donate it to an existing facility. Obviously he can't use such acts or organizations as fronts for glorifying himself.

He can have stuff with a worth of 100 GP. This also means he may have same GP as long as he does not spend it and most of his money goes to charity. If I was someone with the VoP (a good guy in this case) I would make some account and the money I make from adventuring goes into that charitable account. It will be owned by someone that owns the money, but also is inclined to spend it to help the hungry, homeless, and less fortunate.

[Kobold-Bard]

So I've been thinking about the "I'm sorry, little orphan girl, your brother had to die because I'm not allowed to have money for longer than X."

How about letting a VoP character have money, and spend it however he wants... as long as it benefits the downtrodden, impoverished, etc.?

A VoP character can use his share of treasure to build an orphanage or a hospital or a homeless shelter or a church or whatever, or he can donate it to an existing facility. Obviously he can't use such acts or organizations as fronts for glorifying himself.

What about Evil VoP characters? Or neutrals who believe the everyone should look out for themselves (so they dont want items, and believe the poor shouldn't need handouts). Kinda screws them.

[Duskranger]

What about Evil VoP characters? Or neutrals who believe the everyone should look out for themselves (so they dont want items, and believe the poor shouldn't need handouts). Kinda screws them.

Actually that's probably why the original VoP is created for Exalted/Good characters.

Evil characters can give their money to warlords so they can see nations burn and people suffer.

Neutral people could go either way. Or maybe they sacrifice their money and give it to a god.

[Feralventas]

"Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral)."

Not sure if I understand this right, as it looks a little backwards.

A Fey creature usually has DR/Cold Iron, meaning that Cold Iron is their bane, and ignores DR.
A Lycanthrope usually has DR/Silver, meaning that Silver is their weakness, and ignores DR.

So why is it that the VoP fix here grants DR5/magic at 10th, but advancing with it grants an additional weakness rather than augmenting it or at least leaving it alone until it increases at 20th?

Looking at it, BOED's VoP grants DR5/magic, then DR5/Evil, then DR10/Evil.
If you're trying to mimic that effect for non-good characters, perhaps
DR5/magic, DR5/(Alignment based bane), and DR10/(Alignment based bane) instead.

[Volthawk]

"Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral)."

Not sure if I understand this right, as it looks a little backwards.

A Fey creature usually has DR/Cold Iron, meaning that Cold Iron is their bane, and ignores DR.
A Lycanthrope usually has DR/Silver, meaning that Silver is their weakness, and ignores DR.

So why is it that the VoP fix here grants DR5/magic at 10th, but advancing with it grants an additional weakness rather than augmenting it or at least leaving it alone until it increases at 20th?

Looking at it, BOED's VoP grants DR5/magic, then DR5/Evil, then DR10/Evil.
If you're trying to mimic that effect for non-good characters, perhaps
DR5/magic, DR5/(Alignment based bane), and DR10/(Alignment based bane) instead.

I'm pretty sure DR x/cold iron and magic means you need a magic cold iron weapon to get through it, like the Lich's DR.

A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

[Drolyt]

"Damage Reduction (Su): You gain damage reduction 5/magic at 10th level. At 15th level this increases to 5/magic and silver (if you are lawful), or 5/magic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 5/magic and adamantine (if you are neutral). At 20th level this increases to 10/epic and silver (if you are lawful), or 10/epic and cold iron (if you are chaotic), or 10/epic and adamantine (if you are neutral)."

Not sure if I understand this right, as it looks a little backwards.

A Fey creature usually has DR/Cold Iron, meaning that Cold Iron is their bane, and ignores DR.
A Lycanthrope usually has DR/Silver, meaning that Silver is their weakness, and ignores DR.

So why is it that the VoP fix here grants DR5/magic at 10th, but advancing with it grants an additional weakness rather than augmenting it or at least leaving it alone until it increases at 20th?

Looking at it, BOED's VoP grants DR5/magic, then DR5/Evil, then DR10/Evil.
If you're trying to mimic that effect for non-good characters, perhaps
DR5/magic, DR5/(Alignment based bane), and DR10/(Alignment based bane) instead.

This has been asked before, and you really need to blame the confusing 3.5 ruleset (or perhaps the English language), not me. Magic AND Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine means you need a weapon that is BOTH Magic and Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine. Only a few monsters in 3.5 have that kind of damage reduction, but it sounds like you have been playing them wrong. If it said Magic OR Cold Iron/Silver/Adamantine it would work like you described. This was my biggest beef with Abominations from the Epic Level Handbook, it is so cool to have a monster whose DR can only be surpassed with a weapon forged with the blood of a deity, except it is "weapon forged with the blood of a deity OR a good aligned weapon". I ignore the second part in my campaigns.

[Vaynor]

I'm pretty sure DR x/cold iron and magic means you need a magic cold iron weapon to get through it, like the Lich's DR.

Indeed, I find it easier to think of it as if the creature/ability had "DR x/a" and "DR x/b" instead of "DR x/a+b" (if that makes sense). The DR reduces damage by the given amount unless you use a specific kind of attack, and you must bypass each type of damage reduction granted by the DR. If you only needed one of the two then the ability would state "DR 10/magic or cold iron" not "DR 10/magic and cold iron".

[IonDragon]

You should probably make the natural armor bonus 'Enhancement' type so it doesn't stack with barkskin, dragonskin and possible others.

[Drolyt]

You should probably make the natural armor bonus 'Enhancement' type so it doesn't stack with barkskin, dragonskin and possible others.

Not sure how I missed that, thank you.

[Ralasha]

If I was an adventuring hero, and I would hold on to the money for when I met individuals in need of help, rather than trusting someone that may, or may not be trust worthy. By buying my stuff, and then selling it to help others.

[Drolyt]

If I was an adventuring hero, and I would hold on to the money for when I met individuals in need of help, rather than trusting someone that may, or may not be trust worthy. By buying my stuff, and then selling it to help others.

I'm not sure what you are saying, sorry.

[Ralasha]

I'm saying that with the Vow of Poverty, you are allowed a specific amount of valuables, totaling what was it... 150 gold? Which means You could carry things totaling that in value, to be sold in order to help others, since the stuff you would be wearing/using would all be mundane, and more likely than not no more than 80 gold in value.

[Rumel]

What about Summon natures ally I-IX as you go through higher levels at will? It would last untill you dismiss it or until you sleep and lose concentration.