[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[imp_fireball]

Of course it's entirely possible our definitions of "Cool" are different.

Entirely possible. *tweaks mustache*

EDIT: I put it in a spoiler, so you don't have to look at it if you don't want to.

[Mystic Muse]

Entirely possible. *tweaks mustache*

EDIT: I put it in a spoiler, so you don't have to look at it if you don't want to.

Thanks. That's probably a good idea anyway. More efficient use of space.

[imp_fireball]

Thanks. That's probably a good idea anyway. More efficient use of space.

Changed it again.

Not bluffing.

EDIT: IMO, the new one is scarier, but more graphic novel-ish.

[Oslecamo]

Then don't make its special powers depend on strength.

Then the player can just go search for feats/prcs to abuse said great str. Or charisma or whatever other big score the monster has.

Also, improved red head kinda useless as undeads don't have a con score and stuff.

Mind you taking class levels shouldn't make you weaker. Put the dex penalty at 1st level if you want it so much.

Nat armor has to scale with level somehow.

[Mystic Muse]

Changed it again.

Not bluffing.

EDIT: IMO, the new one is scarier, but more graphic novel-ish.

No, the last one definitely freaked me out more. I think the new one just looks cheesy.

Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a "Cool" zombie.

EDIT: Thank you for using my list Oslecamo. I feel like I actually made a contribution.

[AustontheGreat1]

Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a "Cool" zombie.

Never?

[Mystic Muse]

Never?

Nope. That one just looks stupid.

This one failed to jump the shark didn't he?

[imp_fireball]

Then the player can just go search for feats/prcs to abuse said great str. Or charisma or whatever other big score the monster has.

Abusing ability scores is unavoidable. I wouldn't worry about it. :P

[Oslecamo]

Nope. That one just looks stupid.

This one failed to jump the shark didn't he?

Sid Baret proves that zombies can be awesome.



imp_fireball:They can't abuse what isn't there. If I wanted perfect copies of the MM monsters I wouldn't have bothered with those classes would I?

Plus there's abuse, and there's "OMG what was this guy thinking +20 int for 8 levels no way I'll allow this in my campaign!" I want people to actualy be able to convince their DMs to allow my material and stuff.

[Mystic Muse]

Sid Baret proves that zombies can be awesome.



imp_fireball:They can't abuse what isn't there. If I wanted perfect copies of the MM monsters I wouldn't have bothered with those classes would I?

Plus there's abuse, and there's "OMG what was this guy thinking +20 int for 8 levels no way I'll allow this in my campaign!" I want people to actualy be able to convince their DMs to allow my material and stuff.

Yeah, that Zombie is cool/awesome. At least, I'm assuming the grey guy is a zombie.

And if people want to abuse something they're going to abuse it. I could probably find a way to get ninth level spells and full BAB with the dragon classes if I was really determined to.

[Oslecamo]

Yeah, that Zombie is cool/awesome. At least, I'm assuming the grey guy is a zombie.

Yes he is, couldn't find a proper image of him alone tough. He's from the soul eater manga, I recommend reading it as he appears early on and fights with his own gravestone!

And if people want to abuse something they're going to abuse it. I could probably find a way to get ninth level spells and full BAB with the dragon classes if I was really determined to.

But what if you don't want to abuse it? A giant with 40 str would overshaddow every other melee dude out there would he want it or not for example.

[Mystic Muse]

But what if you don't want to abuse it? A giant with 40 str would overshaddow every other melee dude out there would he want it or not for example.

I didn't mean to imply that you should just give everybody awesome bonuses. I just mean that if somebody wants to abuse something they're going to, amazing bonuses or not. I think the current monster classes are actually really good.

For the half fiend, would it be a problem if, when multiclassing, it could add to levels of Wizard instead? Same goes for a lot of the other monsters that give spellcasting bonuses if you multiclass to Sorcerer.

Maybe this is unbalanced. I don't know, I'm just throwing things out there.

[Starbuck_II]

I think he is just giving Sorcerors a bone.
Wizards get more benefit from splatbooks so Sorcs deserve something.

My Beholderkin adds to any arcane class. I just used Sorc as example.

[Mystic Muse]

I think he is just giving Sorcerors a bone.
Wizards get more benefit from splatbooks so Sorcs deserve something.

My Beholderkin adds to any arcane class. I just used Sorc as example.

Ah. Okay. Thanks.

Hmm. I'm thinking of playing a red dragon if my DM will let me. I'll see what he says. (The red dragon will be my backup backup character)

Yes, I plan ahead much too far.

Although, I may have to go with the Silver Dragon.

ooooo. Half fiend Silver dragon!

[flabort]

Uh, just because I'm feeling extra immature and insecure today, may I point out that I am pretty much finnished the Werehydra, and would like some final input on balance? possibly a picture?

as I said, extra insecure today.

[imp_fireball]

If I wanted perfect copies of the MM monsters I wouldn't have bothered with those classes would I?

Actually, I thought you would, considering what you said you were originally intending was to make monsters with LA playable rather then tributes to monsters with LA.

Also, no giant I've seen has +40 Str - the strongest giant in the SRD is the storm giant with +28 Strength.

Also, you're overplaying ability score bonuses. The best they can be for is to-hit, AC, saves and spell save DCs - oh and skills. None of that stuff can be truly game breaking, in my opinion (usually it's magic that allows for save or dies, save or sucks - even things like energy immunity are better then ability scores, not to mention some of the monster classes have regeneration which requires the GM to create specialized encounters in order to do them in, etc.).

My main argument stands that a PC monster versus an LA'd monster of the same race is going to want to closely match the latter in terms of ability scores. I want my Balor to be mighty, not +10 Str at the most or what have you.

A giant with 40 str would overshaddow every other melee dude out there would he want it or not for example.

Hardly. Power Attack + Leap Attack is a pretty basic feat combo for 'uber chargers'. The giant could just have an easier time being a gish, or taking shock trooper a little later as a melee person since their strength allows them to still keep their to-hit modifier pretty high if their BAB is all spent on power attack.

[Starbuck_II]

My main argument stands that a PC monster versus an LA'd monster of the same race is going to want to closely match the latter in terms of ability scores. I want my Balor to be mighty, not +10 Str at the most or what have you.

Okay, the PC Balor loses 15 Str, but gains playability from 1st. A MM Balor loses 5 points from leveling (So really only 10 difference).
A PC version will have rolled stats/Point buy meaning:
18 Str + 10=28 which is only 15 loss than the race. Add in level up bonus (+5)= 10 less.
So that is weaker, but not that bad.

You gain Con to NA (unlikely to be 19) so lose some AC.
Exececutor means you can have Vorpal by 8th (for 1 rd, but only 1/HD till 20th when at will).

[imp_fireball]

Okay, the PC Balor loses 15 Str, but gains playability from 1st. A MM Balor loses 5 points from leveling (So really only 10 difference).
A PC version will have rolled stats/Point buy meaning:
18 Str + 10=28 which is only 15 loss than the race. Add in level up bonus (+5)= 10 less.
So that is weaker, but not that bad.

You gain Con to NA (unlikely to be 19) so lose some AC.
Exececutor means you can have Vorpal by 8th (for 1 rd, but only 1/HD till 20th when at will).

I meant that they should be the same in terms of hitting compared to an NPC balor.

[Oslecamo]

Actually, I thought you would, considering what you said you were originally intending was to make monsters with LA playable rather then tributes to monsters with LA.

Sigh, and part of that goes trough reducing huge ability scores not just nerfing wish SLAs and other equally broken stuff.

After all, if the PC giant is 1-hit killing every CR apropriate monster thanks to his massive str, it's actualy worst than the troll PC who needs to be tied up after going down or just as bad as the pixie NPC wich flies while shooting stuff.

I meant that they should be the same in terms of hitting compared to an NPC balor.

The PC Balor actualy comes up ahead.

18(base)+10 (monster class)+5(leveling up)+5(tome)+6(item)=44 str. PC BALOR SMASH PUNY NPC BALOR!

You see, an NPC Balor is an NPC. He isn't pimped up neither he gets to roll stats or cherry pick magic items from an huge WBL.

The NPC Balor can also choose to sacrifice his last levels for something like Kensai or barbarian or frenzied berseker and come up even more ahead.

And I didn't even get on the party helping the Balor with buffs. The cleric will pimp out the party with recitation and the wizard will cast haste and other goodies.

As someone once said, if the Balor was a monster with 10 Str and the ability to gain +25 str for one minute one time per week the players wouldn't notice the diference. PCs always come up with ways to pimp out their characters. They get more treasure and preparation time and equally powerfull teammates.

A DM's monsters don't have that luxury. Ok, he can in theory do that, but a player just needs to worry about one character, the DM can't give that kind of atention to every single one of the dozens of monsters the campaign will involve unless he doesn't do anything else with his life. That's why monsters on the hand of the DM deserve some free cookies. Because they'll just exist for brief moments.

[imp_fireball]

Sigh, and part of that goes trough reducing huge ability scores not just nerfing wish SLAs and other equally broken stuff.

After all, if the PC giant is 1-hit killing every CR apropriate monster thanks to his massive str, it's actualy worst than the troll PC who needs to be tied up after going down or just as bad as the pixie NPC wich flies while shooting stuff.



The PC Balor actualy comes up ahead.

18(base)+10 (monster class)+5(leveling up)+5(tome)+6(item)=44 str. PC BALOR SMASH PUNY NPC BALOR!

You see, an NPC Balor is an NPC. He isn't pimped up neither he gets to roll stats or cherry pick magic items from an huge WBL.

The NPC Balor can also choose to sacrifice his last levels for something like Kensai or barbarian or frenzied berseker and come up even more ahead.

And I didn't even get on the party helping the Balor with buffs. The cleric will pimp out the party with recitation and the wizard will cast haste and other goodies.

As someone once said, if the Balor was a monster with 10 Str and the ability to gain +25 str for one minute one time per week the players wouldn't notice the diference. PCs always come up with ways to pimp out their characters. They get more treasure and preparation time and equally powerfull teammates.

A DM's monsters don't have that luxury. Ok, he can in theory do that, but a player just needs to worry about one character, the DM can't give that kind of atention to every single one of the dozens of monsters the campaign will involve unless he doesn't do anything else with his life. That's why monsters on the hand of the DM deserve some free cookies. Because they'll just exist for brief moments.

Okay, but the fact that the naked npc balor even compares to the pc balor with magic items is silly. It's like comparing a naked human commoner to a human with class levels and magic items. The PC balor should utterly wipe the floor with the naked one - the GM can always counter this with more balors or an even more epic monster. I'm just saying that a PC balor should compare to a regular balor at max level. Most of the time, the PC balor won't be 20th level anyway (a lot of GMs prefer to start early).

Level Adjustment is still popular because you can buy it off, but I understand that particularly high LAs are a real hassle to buy off. Perhaps provide an alternate to your existing monster classes, but this time match the levels to their LA suggested by the books and make them exact duplicates (albeit without the same equipment and treasure as the monster listing, of course).

One suggestion is to use a new system I'm working on - instead of gaining HD, they gain 'perks'. For monsters with racial HD, they might fall more into the standard monster as a class level progression system you've written, or simply sporadically reward the player with HD at certain levels with perks.

Another idea is to reduce the LA down to a maximum of +2 through the monster class levels system - that way creatures with very high LA can get their LA bought off early like lower LA creatures.

[Mystic Muse]

Level Adjustment is still popular because you can buy it off, but I understand that particularly high LAs are a real hassle to buy off. Perhaps provide an alternate to your existing monster classes, but this time match the levels to their LA suggested by the books and make them exact duplicates (albeit without the same equipment and treasure as the monster listing, of course).

Not if your DM doesn't allow LA buyoff (Like mine.)

[imp_fireball]

Not if your DM doesn't allow LA buyoff (Like mine.)

Why wouldn't they allow LA buy off?

Also, Balor has +24 Str. Racial bonuses are usually even numbers and the averages are 10-11. Thus the Balor listing most likely had 11 Str before racial bonus.

[Mystic Muse]

Why wouldn't they allow LA buy off?

Don't know. He allows homebrew but doesn't allow the retraining rules from PHB2. Also, once I brought them up he instituted a "No change rule" or something.

I think he's just trying to keep his campaign under control is all.

EDIT: I don't think he really has anything to worry about though. The only person in the group who really optimizes is me. Our ranger doesn't even seem to have a Magical bow as far as I can tell. We also have a Monk so there's that.

[imp_fireball]

Don't know. He allows homebrew but doesn't allow the retraining rules from PHB2. Also, once I brought them up he instituted a "No change rule" or something.

I think he's just trying to keep his campaign under control is all.

Sounds lame.

[Mystic Muse]

Sounds lame.

Well, I got to use an awesome homebrew version of Paladin which is actually the only reason our group is going to live through our current battle.

[imp_fireball]

Ogre

Spoiler

Show

Gult'mug, an Ogre/Gladiator/Ranger

Spoiler

Show

HD: d8
Proficiencies: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
Skills: 2 + Int Modifier
Climb, Listen and Spot are Class Skills.
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+2 |+0 | +0| Ogre Body, -2 Dexterity, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma, Natural Armor, +2 Strength, +1 Constitution, Dark Vision 60ft.
2|+ 2|+ 3|+ 0| + 0| +10ft. Base Speed, +2 Strength, +1 Constitution
3|+ 2|+ 3|+1| +1 | +2 Strength, +1 Constitution
4|+3|+4|+1|+1|+4 Strength, +1 Constitution, Full Natural Armor, Growth
[/table]

Ogre Body

The ogre loses all prior racial bonuses and abilities and their size is now Medium. They cannot take levels in any other monster class other than ogre except for 'template monster classes' such as 'zombie'.

Natural Armor

You gain a bonus to natural armor equal to your 1/2 your constitution modifier (round down). This becomes your full constitution modifier at 4th level.

Growth

Size permanently shifts from Medium to Large.

Ogre Feats

Spoiler

Show

Ogre Brute [Ogre]
Prerequisite: 1st level Ogre

Your d8 HD acquired from levels in Ogre are now d12s and you have full BAB progression for levels in Ogre.

Ogre Sapient [Ogre]
Prerequisite: 1st level Ogre or Ogre as Race

You no longer have a penalty to your Intelligence score for being an Ogre or taking the first level in Ogre. You also may select a number of additional skills as class skills equal to your Intelligence modifier and receive skill focus (skill of your choice) as a bonus feat.

Walk Softly and Carry a Big Club [Ogre]
Prerequisite: Ogre Sapient, 4th level Ogre

You no longer have a penalty to dexterity for taking a level in Ogre. Receive 2d6 precision damage die which only applies once gaining another die of precision based damage from another class - if the damage varies from two classes, ie. the rogue's sneak attack and the duelist's precise strike, choose which ability the 2d6 adds to (you may not modify this choice thereafter). You may now also factor in your Ogre levels as part of your precision damage die progression. Finally, you may perform attacks that use this precision damage with any weapon you take weapon focus in.

Ogre Magi [Ogre]
Prerequisite: Ogre Sapient, Use Magic Device (6 ranks) or Knowledge (Arcana; 4 ranks) and Spellcraft (4 ranks)

Your Ogre Levels now count as caster levels for the purpose of caster level progression in conjunction with other classes that grant caster level progression.

Ogre Mind Magiks [Ogre]
Prerequisite: Ogre Sapient, Use Psionic Device (6 ranks) or Wild Talent

Your Ogre levels count as manifester levels for the purpose of manifester level progression in conjunction with other classes that grant manifester level progression.

Ogre Ballet [Ogre]
Prerequisite: BAB +5, Martial Lore (6 ranks), 4th level Ogre, Maneuver Aptitude (or whatever that feat that grants maneuvers for non-initiators is called)

Your Ogre levels count as initiator levels for the purpose of initiator level progression in conjunction with other classes that grant initiator level progression.

The Right Kinda Ugly [Ogre]
Prerequisite: Ogre 1st level

You no longer take a penalty to charisma for taking a level in Ogre. Intimidate is now a class skill for the Ogre.

You may take a number of additional charisma based skills as class skills equal to your charisma modifier - alternatively, for level dependent features of charisma dependent classes such as the Paladin and Bard, your Ogre levels count as levels for the purpose of fulfilling such level dependent class features (but not other level dependent features such as 'caster level').

[Oslecamo]

Okay, but the fact that the naked npc balor even compares to the pc balor with magic items is silly. It's like comparing a naked human commoner to a human with class levels and magic items.

Hmm, really don't know what you're complaining about here, the pimped up PC Balor comes up ahead of the naked NPC Balor

The PC balor should utterly wipe the floor with the naked one - the GM can always counter this with more balors or an even more epic monster.

Hmm, no.

First there's CR. A CR 20 monster is suposed to be a challenge to a 20th level character. A 20th level character has 20th level WBL. The monster doesn't. Point. Some people call it the "Christmas Tree" effect. I call it "Money is power".

Second, I'm not a suporter of "PCs should automaticall be the most awesome thing on the face of existence!" philosophy. If you want to be awesome work for it. Multiclass, negotiate buffs, get proper gear. Your character isn't just his class. It's also his feats, his equipment, his allies, his choices. All things in wich NPCs are heavily gimped.

I'm just saying that a PC balor should compare to a regular balor at max level.

And again, PCs get loads of cash and are expected to use it. It's one of the basis of the system. I'm rewriting monsters as PCs, not WBL.

Level Adjustment is still popular because you can buy it off, but I understand that particularly high LAs are a real hassle to buy off.

It is an hassle to even survive enough time when you have half the HD you're expected to have and the DM can't use any HD dependant effect whitout risk of crippling the LA player.

Perhaps provide an alternate to your existing monster classes, but this time match the levels to their LA suggested by the books and make them exact duplicates (albeit without the same equipment and treasure as the monster listing, of course).

No, LA was thrown out the window and isn't coming back here. Having less HD than you're suposed to, even if temporary, is too much trouble.

One suggestion is to use a new system I'm working on - instead of gaining HD, they gain 'perks'. For monsters with racial HD, they might fall more into the standard monster as a class level progression system you've written, or simply sporadically reward the player with HD at certain levels with perks.

That's called standard monster classes. Already done in Savage Species. But whitout the Fallout naming. You're just overcomplicating here.

Another idea is to reduce the LA down to a maximum of +2 through the monster class levels system - that way creatures with very high LA can get their LA bought off early like lower LA creatures.

Creatures with very high LA don't get that very high LA for nothing. It's because they have specially powerfull and/or game-breaking abilities.

EDIT:your ogre atempt breaks so many of my rules that I won't even bother pointing them out. Also if you had readed the first post of the thread you would've noticed there's a general rule that forbids you from mixing monster classes.

[Mystic Muse]

You're fighting a losing battle here imp. If you really want this you should make it yourself but I don't expect many people to use it. No offence.

[Oslecamo]

Uh, just because I'm feeling extra immature and insecure today, may I point out that I am pretty much finnished the Werehydra, and would like some final input on balance? possibly a picture?

as I said, extra insecure today.

Sorry for missing you. After a lot of thinking I ended up concluding all the extra natural attacks isn't that bad if it gets little else. I may still tweak the ability scores however(why does it gets dex bonus again?). Also need to find a proper picture.

Another little problem it's that you state that the hydra can't return to human form if it has less heads than normal, but what if the stumps are cauterized? The werehydra would be locked in hydraform forever in that situation.

[Mystic Muse]

Sorry for missing you. After a lot of thinking I ended up concluding all the extra natural attacks isn't that bad if it gets little else. I may still tweak the ability scores however(why does it gets dex bonus again?). Also need to find a proper picture.

I could draw up an OOTS version. That's about the limit of my artistic abilities though.