OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[JoseB]

Text

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I consider that the actions of the elf commander were rational and militarily justifiable (although he displayed his hatred of goblinoids by "toying" with the prisoner before throwing him off the wall, which I find unpleasant). You think that the elf commander was blinded by his hatred of the goblinoids, and did not properly consider other options that might not have had to involve his killing the prisoner. I feel that nothing we could say to each other would budge us from our positions.

We have never found ourselves in a comparable situation, so we can only guess. I *guess* that, were I in his situation, I would have acted as he did (although without the "toying" part). And that, in a comparable real-world situation, a commander on the field would have also acted in a similar way. But those are only guesses on my part. Possibly, you would imagine yourself acting differently in this situation.

I imagine that a big part of our reaction to this strip is how we project ourselves in dealing with this kind of tactical situation, and what we would prioritize there.

[EDIT: Also, I very much subscribe to what Deliverance wrote in the post just before this one, which came in as I was typing]

[SoC175]

People are forgetting what the goblins did to the Azurites already. And the hobgoblin was definitely a spy, which is why the elf killed him.

And this strip was there to remind people why the goblins had to do it against the Azurites

I'm disappointed with OOtS-verse elves. So far there have been hints that they simply aren't up to their own reputation.

What reputation is that, exactly? The only things we know for sure about the elves of the OOTS-verse is that they are allied with the Azurites and many of them have indistinguishable genders. Any presumptions of purity and goodness are your own projections.

Especially since elves are racist bastards in most D&D worlds (and not only toward "inferior races" but also among their own subraces). Who thinks that Drow are worst hasn't read much about Sun Elves

[Melamoto]

No, it is entirely more reasonable to assume that a major part of the city's population did not escape on the ships and were either killed outright or managed to flee to the countryside during the sack and looting with only a minority of the humans who ended up at the mercy of the hobgoblins ending up surviving in cushy prisons as slaves. Slavery is the survivor's problem, something that generally happens after order has been secured by main force and the dirty deeds have been done.

I think that, by the looks of it, a lot of people were conscripted at the last minute, and so got killed as part of the army. Almost all others are implied to have escaped in the fleet, since Hinjo does specifically make sure to fill up the many, many ships with as many people as he can.


Still, I think we have hit the fundamental point we disagree on, and so can go no further. But really, I'd just like to make my main, original point known again: The speciesism against and hatred of goblins is starting to feel a little overbearing. I wouldn't mind this strip, if in at least one other, someone (Other than OotS) would say "He may be a goblin, but he seems like a good person; let's not kill him."

[Tyrmatt]

Wow, ice freaking cold but as the elf openly admits he isn't a nice guy so not entirely unexpected.
Of course, they pull a knife, you pull a gun...

[Sterm]

The resistance could cast detect evil/lies on him.Racist and prejudiced elf!

[Snake-Aes]

People saying a detect evil or discern lies would solve the problem: Yes, it would. No, it would not help. The casters are pretty busy with crucial assignments, to ensure the prisoners escape. Odds also are that they are very busy with their spell slots. Making Thahn and the Hobgoblin meet takes his attention from his duty. Escorting the hob to the tunnels is extremely risky as all it takes is a single round for him to shout a warning, or try to get away and cause a ruckus somewhere too close for comfort.

The elven commander's resources are limited, strictly, to those immediately around him, none of them seeming to have resources past sense motive checks.

As said before knowing that the resistance has the help of high level elves is much, much more than "resistance has high level people". It gives the City a target, and odds are it even facilitates scrying and fighting. The only reason the commander has to keep the goblin alive is compassion, which goes against every goal of the resistance under those circumstances.


It wasn't "a logically sound the decision", it was "the most sound decision possible".


And don't throw "but he was cruel" crap. I'm not denying that. His reasons as a commander were perfect, sound and smart.

[Sterm]

People saying a detect evil or discern lies would solve the problem: Yes, it would. No, it would not help. The casters are pretty busy with crucial assignments, to ensure the prisoners escape. Odds also are that they are very busy with their spell slots. Making Thahn and the Hobgoblin meet takes his attention from his duty. Escorting the hob to the tunnels is extremely risky as all it takes is a single round for him to shout a warning, or try to get away and cause a ruckus somewhere too close for comfort.

The elven commander's resources are limited, strictly, to those immediately around him, none of them seeming to have resources past sense motive checks.

As said before knowing that the resistance has the help of high level elves is much, much more than "resistance has high level people". It gives the City a target, and odds are it even facilitates scrying and fighting. The only reason the commander has to keep the goblin alive is compassion, which goes against every goal of the resistance under those circumstances.


It wasn't "a logically sound the decision", it was "the most sound decision possible".


And don't throw "but he was cruel" crap. I'm not denying that. His reasons as a commander were perfect, sound and smart.

I agree,but if he wasn't evil he could give them important information.Anyway,this is war.

[Snake-Aes]

I agree,but if he wasn't evil he could give them important information.Anyway,this is war.

We can't even ensure that. Him being evil makes him likely to be cruel and betray his enemies as soon as he can. If he was good but still loyal to Gobbotopia, you can't ensure he wouldn't do those things.

[Deliverance]

I think that, by the looks of it, a lot of people were conscripted at the last minute, and so got killed as part of the army.

While I would certainly expect many able-bodied civilians to form some sort of citizen's militia during the defense and early stages of evacuation (before breaking and trying desperately to escape any way possible), I can't say that we have seen that in the comic. As far as I recall, every single Azurite we saw fighting, apart from the high-level criminals recruited out of prison because of being high-level, was in full armour.

Being in uniform armour, shields, and weapons mark them as definitely not being conscripted at the last minute unless handwaved away as graphical limitations. Had the author wished to imply that a significant part of those defending Azure City were last minute conscripts rather than part of a standing army or forces loyal to various nobles there were plenty of opportunities to do so.

Any defense by last minute conscripts getting conveniently killed off during the assault as active combatants rather civilian victims has happened off screen.

Almost all others are implied to have escaped in the fleet, since Hinjo does specifically make sure to fill up the many, many ships with as many people as he can.

Where exactly is it implied that almost all others escaped in the fleet? I am not denying that it has been implied, but I don't remember it being the case.

Hinjo's desire to get every ship filled up with as many people as he can and then leave is unlikely to have significantly affected the shipping capacity.

As far as I recall, the author has neither implied nor told us in the comic how many people managed to escape from the city with the fleet and how many did not make it because it really doesn't matter for the purposes of the story. What matters for the story is that enough people made it out that Hinjo has the kernel of an army and has the worries of the leader of a country (even if one in exile) rather than merely those of a commander of a military force or group of refugees.

[Kish]

You know why i find this argument - not just what you said, but the whole entire arguement about the morality of his actions - stupid? His other two options were to execute him without a word, or tell him he was going to die anyway.

(EDIT: Or not kill him, which is the stupid idea.)

The first option would be called into question because somebody somewhere would point out that he said nothing and therefore he never even considered that the goblin could help, making it racist and/or evil.

The second would have put the goblin into a veritable state of paniced terror before he died, which is the state he ended up in anyway, making it evil and/or racist.

Really, this is obnoxious. "Your argument is stupid because I, magically, know what arguments people would make if something else had happened, and they're almost exactly the same, therefore your argument is without merit!" is semantically equivalent to, "You're wrong because because BECAUSE!" The commander made a statement of genocidal desires, which he had apparently made a large number of times previously. Keep trying to spin that as completely irrelevant and telling people what they'd say in different circumstances; clearly you're the smartest person here.

And, in any case, I can even think of a plausible reason for throwing the hobgoblin off the wall instead of stabbing him: To prevent the use of "speak with dead" on him and get information.

So they liquefied all the hobgoblin corpses similarly off-camera?

How did they prevent the use of other spells to learn what happened there?

[The MunchKING]

The commander is coolest elf I've seen. Granted, there isn't much competition, but still. That guy is awesome. Plus, he's not a wizard for once in history!

Hey not ALL elves are Wizards. Rangers are also a popular choice.

[pendell]

Popping back in to address some things ...

1) The usual defense is that the killing of the hobgoblin was militarily necessary.

.. I don't see it. I can understand and support killing a prisoner you can't prevent from escaping and raising the alarm on a special operations- type mission. As far as I can tell, however, it was not necessary. The hobgoblin was helpless and appeared to be completely at the elves' mercy. Since they had made provision for a band of squealing, undisciplined, noncombatant jail prisoners, certainly one additional hobgoblin properly bound and shackled and watched over by the other prisoners would cost no additional resources.

I would also argue that this course of action is *militarily harmful*. As I discussed in another thread, a conventional assault on one of the greatest fortifications in the OOTS world, manned by a numerically powerful army, has little hope unless you can sow dissension and treason among the defenders, and racial differences seem like a fruitful area for such operations. Making it clear that you'll kill them all regardless what they do will make the entire city fight like cornered rats. The elves' tactics may have doomed the battle for Azure City before it even began.

2) Another thought is 'because the hobgoblin was evil'.


First of all, we don't know that. Hobgoblins are 'usually lawful evil' in the SRD, not 'always evil'.


Second, whether the hobgoblin is good or evil is completely irrelevant from a military point of view. A person who has the 'evil' D&D descriptor can still be militarily useful. See: Belkar, Dark Vaarsuvius.

Another thing about evil is that it isn't a permanent condition. Evil people have repented and become good before. And even if they don't, they can still be made useful.

What was it Gandalf said ... "Many people live that deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too hasty to deal out death in judgement, for not even the wise can see all ends." They were speaking of sparing Gollum's life. They did, and because they did so they achieved an otherwise-impossible quest.

I point out, also, that Thanh is a paladin and would have nothing to do with this course of action. The people in-comic obviously recognize it as an evil act.


3) Some argue that 'goblins=good, azurites = evil'.

We don't know that. The goblins did massacre pretty much all the humans in the city and those they captured, they tortured for sport (remember whipping the old slave in line last book). Redcloak considers himself evil and has said so in-comic. The goblin clerics consider themselves evil too, from the same conversation.

The war to liberate azure city is a just war. The elves and humans are the good guys while the goblins are the bad guys.

BUT that doesn't automatically mean that everything the good guys do is legitimate and good. Fighting an evil villain doesn't automatically justify and make pure everything you do. Good people have committed evil deeds while fighting just wars. And sometimes the 'good' people have become so damaged after fighting these wars they no longer think of themselves as good. 'War' is a morally corrupting endeavor.

It is because of this I want to remind our readers of the words of a man who was sometimes wise ...

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

I would disagree. Monsters need to be fought and defeated. But he's right that fighting monsters can make a man become a monster. That's why there are such things as military law and geneva conventions et al -- to restrain the madness and perhaps keep us from the abyss, of becoming the very thing we fight against in a different uniform.

And as Terry Pratchett said in Night Watch, if we're successful we find a middle point between impossible, neat-n-shiny perfection and the abyss so that we become a band of tired, dirty men doing a miserable job under tough circumcstances... but we can still have a measure of self-respect. Because while the Dark beckons us, we have not fallen wholly into it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ikialev]

Wow. Elves are a-holes.

[Xerxus]

I can't see how this is justifiable. The elves are in this for no good reason, only profit and some strange sense of racist justice, the goblins barely no better I know but this is irrelevant. Of course, in the sense that it is a great tactical disadvantage they have no choice at the moment (except for using detect evil, but whatever), but this is also irrelevant since they made the choice to kill that goblin and many other innocent goblins when they went to war with them. Unless they have some greater good at stake by not going to war (and that ends suddenly began to justify the means in DnD) this is just a demonstration to us that neither side is good, or even right.

[Dark_Tangente]

Woa, it took me something like 15 hours to notice the new comic and my post ends up on the 15th page ^^
Nevertheless the comic is awesome and so are the elves
I can't wait for the next one

[The MunchKING]

It took me a while to realize the title was talking about Elves.

Huh... I thought it was talking about Goblins...

[The MunchKING]

Woa, it took me something like 15 hours to notice the new comic and my post ends up on the 15th page ^^

Crazy isn't it?

[HandofShadows]

In war it is often hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

[The MunchKING]

From a full practical point of view, the action is equally unjustified. A spy, even a double-agent, is always useful as long as you *know* he is a spy, no matter you are unsure about his true loyalties, if any. They could have kept him as prisoner, feed him crap and false info and then released him. Or they could have set him free on promise to be a spy for the Resistance, then feed him crap in the hope he is actually a double-agent.

Except no matter what crap you feed him, you've already taken him with the other prsioners. Meaning he has at least SOME info vital to the survival of your gurilla war. the location of your secret base and knowledge of your high-level party members.

[Xerxus]

In war it is often hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys.

If such a distinction could be made at all.

[Kaytara]

Whoa there. That was cold. Pragmatic, sure, and expected of someone in the Commander's line of work (hard military all the way, and someone used to doing special missions, accomplishing the objective at any cost), but what shone through there was complete disregard for the hobgoblin's life and a full lack of belief that it was even possible that a hobgoblin could be anything but a monster, that his life was worth the Truth spell their cleric would have to expend to determine his sincerity.

Of course, the argument "I'll help you because I'm SO intolerant of other races that I can't even stand the greenskins, to the point of assaulting one without cause, so I'll help you elves and humans" wasn't exactly convincing, either.

Interesting how Rich seems to be on a goblin sympathy roll here.

I also think there's a bit of foreshadowing here on the part of the Resistance commanders, whose names I can't remember. The hairbun dude seems at least somewhat appalled at the elf's ruthlessness and seems to recognise that there it was the sort of thing a paladin like Thanh would have a problem with. Eyepatch girl doesn't seem to see anything wrong with it at all. Of the two of them, hairbun dude is probably the one with more potential to view hobgoblins as equals, if adversaries. I could see this becoming a plot point in the future.

[Closak]

You know what?

For centuries the humans and elves have threated the goblins like crap, butchering them for the lulz over and over just because they can.

They have been bullying the goblins since the dawn of creation.

But now the victims strike back against the bullies.

Face it, the azurites DESERVED getting their city sacked, what happened to them is not even a fraction of what they have done to the goblins so they have NO RIGHT to complain about it, and yet they do.

And now, instead of sitting down and accepting the CONSEQUENCES of THEIR OWN ACTIONS they start fighting back against their punishment.
Can't they just accept that karma has come back to bite them in the ass and move on? Must they continue their bullying and refuse to accept the punishment?

Frankly put, the goblins have the moral high ground here.


The humans and elves deserve anything they get, no matter how bad whatever happens to them is it won't even be close to fully pay back for everything they have done to the goblins over the centuries.

I'm invoking equivalent exchange here, for every bit of suffering the humans and elves have caused the goblins the goblins have the right to cause an equal amount.

By the way, V's genocide of 25% of the black dragon race means that according to equivalent exchange 25% of the elven race must die in return.

[CliveStaples]

Whoa there. That was cold. Pragmatic, sure, and expected of someone in the Commander's line of work (hard military all the way, and someone used to doing special missions, accomplishing the objective at any cost), but what shone through there was complete disregard for the hobgoblin's life and a full lack of belief that it was even possible that a hobgoblin could be anything but a monster, that his life was worth the Truth spell their cleric would have to expend to determine his sincerity.

Of course, the argument "I'll help you because I'm SO intolerant of other races that I can't even stand the greenskins, to the point of assaulting one without cause, so I'll help you elves and humans" wasn't exactly convincing, either.

Interesting how Rich seems to be on a goblin sympathy roll here.

I also think there's a bit of foreshadowing here on the part of the Resistance commanders, whose names I can't remember. The hairbun dude seems at least somewhat appalled at the elf's ruthlessness and seems to recognise that there it was the sort of thing a paladin like Thanh would have a problem with. Eyepatch girl doesn't seem to see anything wrong with it at all. Of the two of them, hairbun dude is probably the one with more potential to view hobgoblins as equals, if adversaries. I could see this becoming a plot point in the future.

Are we to believe that the goblin leadership would have acted any differently? They attacked the city, remember? How many people did they kill?

I think the elf's actions were clearly murder (killing a defenseless, shackled prisoner violates some pretty old Western military conventions). But I find it preferable to the goblins' conduct. (I'd take an American lieutenant who murdered Nazis over a Nazi...)

[CliveStaples]

You know what?

For centuries the humans and elves have threated the goblins like crap, butchering them for the lulz over and over just because they can.

They have been bullying the goblins since the dawn of creation.

But now the victims strike back against the bullies.

Face it, the azurites DESERVED getting their city sacked, what happened to them is not even a fraction of what they have done to the goblins so they have NO RIGHT to complain about it, and yet they do.

And now, instead of sitting down and accepting the CONSEQUENCES of THEIR OWN ACTIONS they start fighting back against their punishment.
Can't they just accept that karma has come back to bite them in the ass and move on? Must they continue their bullying and refuse to accept the punishment?

Frankly put, the goblins have the moral high ground here.


The humans and elves deserve anything they get, no matter how bad whatever happens to them is it won't even be close to fully pay back for everything they have done to the goblins over the centuries.

I'm invoking equivalent exchange here, for every bit of suffering the humans and elves have caused the goblins the goblins have the right to cause an equal amount.

By the way, V's genocide of 25% of the black dragon race means that according to equivalent exchange 25% of the elven race must die in return.

How do you know that it has been so one-sided? Or are you just engaging in satire?

[Kish]

Are we to believe that the goblin leadership would have acted any differently? They attacked the city, remember? How many people did they kill?

I think the elf's actions were clearly murder (killing a defenseless, shackled prisoner violates some pretty old Western military conventions). But I find it preferable to the goblins' conduct. (I'd take an American lieutenant who murdered Nazis over a Nazi...)

I wish people would quit equating "organization" with "race."

That is, that argument would be considerably better if the parenthetical at the end was, "I'd take an American lieutenant, circa 1940, who boasted of his genocidal desires toward Germans over a Nazi."

[Dark Matter]

So they liquefied all the hobgoblin corpses similarly off-camera?

Considering the lack of bodies in 707? I'd guess they took them with them... especially considering The Commanders orders to take the most recent one with them.

How did they prevent the use of other spells to learn what happened there?

Speak with Dead is a 3rd level Cleric spell (which is to say the same level as Animate Dead, and common enough that it could readily be used). The other spells are higher level and/or Arcane spells. The goblins don't have many Arcane casters... from Start of Darkness we know Clerics are *far* more common than mages among them.

Running the risks you HAVE to run doesn't excuse you for running the risks you don't have to run.

[Mordokai]

And now, instead of sitting down and accepting the CONSEQUENCES of THEIR OWN ACTIONS they start fighting back against their punishment.
Can't they just accept that karma has come back to bite them in the ass and move on? Must they continue their bullying and refuse to accept the punishment?

Frankly put, the goblins have the moral high ground here.

Lemme put it this way. You killed someone's family, long time ago. Last week, their great-great-great-great grandchildren came a-knockin' on your door. They threw you and your family, everybody you know and loved out of your house, killed a few of them in the process. Would you accept that? Would you consider it karma coming back and biting you in the ass, therefore making it allright? Do the attackers have moral high ground here?

Frankly, I think what Rich is trying to say with this comic is, an eye for an eye and soon the whole world will be blind.

[The MunchKING]

Maybe he should have quoted Hitler instead of Andrew Jackson?

There is a differece between Indians (humans with a different culture) and Goblins (a completly different species CREATED BY THE GODS to be Evil warlike Bastards).

The whole speciesism = Rascism thing falls flat when you get into that kind of thing.

[DeltaEmil]

There is a possibility that some of the human prisoners are goblinoid-spies in magical disguise or collaborator. Or magically bound to betray them at some point.
The hobgoblin prisoner might really have only been put there to make the resistance focus on him instead of any potential traitor amongst the newly freed azurite citizens.

A little bit of geas, a polymorph, or a hired doppelganger, and all the gobbotopia high command would have to do is to sacrifice a lowly hobgoblin soldier who's a little bit rough to lower their defenses.

[Closak]

{Scrubbed}