OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[Drolyt]

Hmm...I can see why you would think so, but if you consider the story of OOTS as a cinematic adventure, I think I see the archetype the elven commander was portraying. In most "war" movies, you almost always see a battle-hardened no-nonsense veteran who is totally capable of acts of remorseless violence, while not in fact being villains or other antagonistic types.

I think perhaps that's what Rich was going for here, and personally I can sympathize with the commander. There is a possibility that the hobgoblin was in fact exactly what he seemed to be...albeit a very slim one. Goblins who rewrite history are not usually prone to locking up there own alongside the prisoners/slaves. At the very least he would have been kept in a different prison. However slim that chance might have been, had the elf made that decision he would have been putting the entire resistance, along with his allies and underlings lives at risk.

The cold-blooded nature of the killing aside, I think from a purely military point of view he made the right decision.

Even if he did it for pragmatic reasons it would be questionable at best, but admittedly understandable. But that wasn't the issue. By his own admission he did what he did out of prejudice towards the Goblins.

[Harr]

Gotta say I was pretty disgusted by it... those were not the actions of any good-aligned being. EVEN IF they can't take the chance that he's a spy/plant, a good-aligned person would have

A) Kept him in chains as a prisoner

or, option A being not feasible,

B) Given him a quick, honorable death.

Instead, he gives it false hope (akin to mental/emotional torture), he makes a joke out of it, he humiliates it, then gives it a death that is even more humiliating.

So yeah, you can jot me down in the "Team Peregrine can suck one and die" column for sure

[Morty]

I'm pretty sure this is the entire point of the goblin subplot. This IS how the goblins are treated because they look different. This is they way the world is. If the everyday people in the world treated the goblins with respect and dignity, there would be no plot, because Redcloak wouldn't need to do what he's doing in the first place. Roy and company are the heroes precisely because they think for themselves.

This comic reminds us of the backdrop against which all of the villains' actions are set. Without it, Redcloak's actions make no sense.

Indeed. I suspect Giant might have written it to remind us about the real reason for Redcloak's conquest and everything else he's doing. Of course, he might not, but it wouldn't surprise me if he has.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Eh, we're not going to miss that particular hobgoblin very much. It was a nice touch to establish that he was the same sort of crazy racist that Redcloak used to be; this way, we can laugh at the spatula line without feeling too bad about it. Heh. Nice work.

I imagine that the commander is probably a ranger with goblinoids as his favored enemy. That would make hating them almost as much a class feature for him as it is for a paladin to hate, say, imps, even if they're all just minding their own business.

Well, okay, not quite that bad, but close. Hard habit to break and all that.

Overall, the only complaint I can come up with would be something along the lines of, "Whine, whine, I'm Roy and I want more plot points!"

[Deca]

A racist elf? Wow, that's a shock.

[Drolyt]

Oh c'mon, that's just standard military protocol: Spies are killed on sight, or tortured for info and then killed; he was merciful there. That was a wee bit too obvious an infiltration attempt to really do anything else.

And if he didn't make his little anti-Goblin speech I might agree with you. It was a very pragmatic military decision, but it was still wrong to kill a defenseless prisoner and the fact that his reasons were blatant racism doesn't exactly help.

[SPoD]

Probably not. And I doubt the elf cares.

This.

Discussions about whether a character is "morally justified" have no meaning when the character taking the action is not trying to justify their morality.

No one in the strip ever claimed all elves were good and pure. They are a team of skilled commandoes lending military aid to an ally, not heroes.

Gotta say I was pretty disgusted by it... those were not the actions of any good-aligned being.

Again, at what point were we lead to believe that Team Peregrine were good-aligned?

[Deca]

Elves are pricks generally anyway.

And, no it wasn't really justified. That's why they decided not to tell Thanh because he would disapprove of it.

[Shular]

Hmm, anyone seen Inglourious Bastards? Were the guys who were killing and scarring the nazis (Brad Pitt and Co.) evil? I see theirs as pretty equal to the elf's behaviour.

[Gredival]

Gotta say I was pretty disgusted by it... those were not the actions of any good-aligned being. EVEN IF they can't take the chance that he's a spy/plant, a good-aligned person would have

A) Kept him in chains as a prisoner

or, option A being not feasible,

B) Given him a quick, honorable death.

Instead, he gives it false hope (akin to mental/emotional torture), he makes a joke out of it, he humiliates it, then gives it a death that is even more humiliating.

So yeah, you can jot me down in the "Team Peregrine can suck one and die" column for sure

Oh come off it, it wasn't like the elf stuck him in Abu Ghraib and whipped it naked. There were maybe ten seconds where the goblin thought it was spared. And I'm sure it died pretty damn fast. It wasn't as much a humiliation as a "Gotcha!"

[Haven]

Also, it has been long established that pretty much all goblinoids are fair game. Paladins don't fall from slaughtering women and children during raiding parties, so no reason that the leader of a strike force would worry about a potentially dissenting goblin.

The question Order of the Stick invites us to examine, though, is if the inherent morality of the world is "right". Because I think automatically assuming that it is, is somewhat tautological.

Anyway: if the elf was really just "doing what he had to do", he would have pretended to go along with the goblin, and then interrogated him for information.

[Jokasti]

Yes, he was.

[Lamorak]

Gotta say I was pretty disgusted by it...

...

So yeah, you can jot me down in the "Team Peregrine can suck one and die" column for sure

Sometimes ruthlessness gets the job done. It was certaintly common practice among fighting forces back in the day to execute captured hostiles when outnumbered. Considering that in this case they are outnumbered 10 to 1, I think that concept applies. Team Peregrine was picked for the job and if they have anything to say about they will get it done, just dont expect them to play nice.

[Kish]

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires and even acknowledges that he doesn't expect Thanh to be okay with what he did. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

[Harr]

It wasn't as much a humiliation as a "Gotcha!"

A "Gotcha!" is, by definition, a humiliation.

What did you think it was?

Sometimes ruthlessness gets the job done.

"Sorry I can't take that chance" *slice throat, done* ==> Ruthless.

What this elf did ==> Needlessly debasing and humiliating.

[Shular]

I imagine that the commander is probably a ranger with goblinoids as his favored enemy. That would make hating them almost as much a class feature for him as it is for a paladin to hate, say, imps, even if they're all just minding their own damned business.

I like that idea Dr. Don't rangers get a sense motive bonus against their favoured enemy? Perhaps he KNEW the hobgoblin was lying.

[Crusher99333]

Elves are awesome.


No further discussion required.

[Jokasti]

People are forgetting what the goblins did to the Azurites already. And the hobgoblin was definitely a spy, which is why the elf killed him.

[Optimystik]

If you really wanted to discuss this, wouldn't a less copycat thread title be in better faith?

[LuisDantas]

Oh come off it, it wasn't like the elf stuck him in Abu Ghraib and whipped it naked. There were maybe ten seconds where the goblin thought it was spared. And I'm sure it died pretty damn fast. It wasn't as much a humiliation as a "Gotcha!"

I don't think it was much better, myself.

I'm disappointed with OOtS-verse elves. So far there have been hints that they simply aren't up to their own reputation.

[Quild]

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires and even acknowledges that he doesn't expect Thanh to be okay with what he did. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

I totally agree with this.

[Covenantwgw]

Even if he did it for pragmatic reasons it would be questionable at best, but admittedly understandable. But that wasn't the issue. By his own admission he did what he did out of prejudice towards the Goblins.

Well that assumes that the dialog was the commanders motivation. I don't really see it that way. The lieutenant's responses were just a little too "prepared" for it to be a spontaneous thing. One alternative explanation would be that it was purely for morale reasons. Another explanation would be that it was an attempt to get the goblin out of the way, quickly and quietly. I also saw a hint of differing standards of protocol between the elven commander and Thanh, and this was merely an attempt to avoid a confrontation by eliminating the source of the potential issue.

I don't really think the moral or ethical reasoning is an issue though. Why would it matter why the commander did what he did from a practical standpoint. The goblin is still dead at the end, but he's literally a terrorist at this point, (the goblin nation being legally recognized now) so legalities and moral debates are more then a bit moot at this point.

At least that's the way I would see it.

[Trixie]

Dang... y'know, that didn't exactly endear me to the elves. Then again, I've always been of the mind elves need to be the ones pushed off high places

Yah, what he said. That commander was an idiot

I mean, being an arse might be forgivable, being a cretin who offs a potential ally and/or source of info before ascertaining its worth isn't.

Oh, yeah, he is going to escape band of guys three to five times his level! While shackled! They are all doomed! It's not like they can cast a few Truth spells on him or kill him if he turns out to be a spy later!


And by the way, they officially committed War Crime now, joining the ever growing band of evil bastards who claim they're still "good", that nevertheless will still be indeed hailed as "good" by some. You know, love of killing from previous page was disgusting, this took them right into Inglorious Bastards knockoffs realm of 'being worse than 95% of the Nazis'. Seriously, was there even one elf in this comic, save for zero level NPCs, and Lirian, maybe, that didn't deserve Disintegration to the face?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires and even acknowledges that he doesn't expect Thanh to be okay with what he did. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

How trustworthy do you think the hobgoblin would be now that Redcloak is gone and he has every reason to get behind the new leader, Jirix?

[Jayngfet]

Oh come off it, it wasn't like the elf stuck him in Abu Ghraib and whipped it naked. There were maybe ten seconds where the goblin thought it was spared. And I'm sure it died pretty damn fast. It wasn't as much a humiliation as a "Gotcha!"

As opposed to not wasting anyones time and just knifing him in the neck? Seriously, how can anyone think this action isn't evil unless they take the core books as the shallowest face value?

[Harr]

People are forgetting what the goblins did to the Azurites already.

If what you're getting at is that these particular Azurites/Peregrines are no better than the goblins themselves, then we are in agreement.

And the hobgoblin was definitely a spy, which is why the elf killed him.

Didn't need to do it like that.

[Drolyt]

Hmm, anyone seen Inglourious Bastards? Were the guys who were killing and scarring the nazis (Brad Pitt and Co.) evil? I see theirs as pretty equal to the elf's behaviour.

Uh, it's hard to quantify whether a person is "evil". Their actions were evil, yes. One point in their defense is that they were doing it for pragmatic reasons; the Elf killed that prisoner out of hate.

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

No. Continuing the cycle of revenge is the cause of half the problems in the OotSverse. I don't get this mentality.

Elves are awesome.
No further discussion required.

Elves used to be awesome, back when Tolkien made Elves, and they were noble warriors fighting against evil alongside mortal men. Now apparently they are racist bastards who kill people that look different for fun.

[SPoD]

I don't think it was much better, myself.

I'm disappointed with OOtS-verse elves. So far there have been hints that they simply aren't up to their own reputation.

What reputation is that, exactly? The only things we know for sure about the elves of the OOTS-verse is that they are allied with the Azurites and many of them have indistinguishable genders. Any presumptions of purity and goodness are your own projections.

Team Peregrine was likely selected for this mission precisely BECAUSE their commander was a goblin-hating bastard. It doesn't really say anything about elves in general except that their leaders know the right tool for the job.

[Woodsman]

Seriously, was there even one elf in this comic, save for zero level NPCs, and Lirian, maybe, that didn't deserve Disintegration to the face?

V did at one point, but I think she/he's rather remorseful right now.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I laughed, even if I saw the punchline coming a mile away.

[...] Now apparently they are racist bastards who kill people that look different for fun.

Oh the irony! It burns!