Kratos vs The Norse Pantheon

[Deca]

This whole discussion is based on the assumption that Kratos will go after the Norse guys next. That's unlikely.

Kratos has bigger fish to fry.

[Trazoi]

So of course, Kratos wins. A GoW where Kratos doesnt win, doesnt exist, period. Maybe he gets kicked from Yggdrasil and acquires the ultra-mega-viking helmet whilest using the midgard snake as a whip, smashing the roots of the worldtree, thus wreaking havoc upon midgard an valhalla, and stuff.

I haven't played a God of War game, but that would be my reasoning. If the contest rules are that it's to be "God of War" style, then Kratos winning is a requirement. Any mythology Kratos is put against will be gimped to the point where he will win. After all, there's no way a demigod could kill off most of the main players in the Greek pantheon if they were playing by Greek mythology rules.

As I'm only loosely aware of the plot of the games I'm assuming they take liberties with the mythology, because it's not as if the Greek pantheon would sit idly by while someone tore their way through their number. The Greeks were all about strategic team warfare rather than one-on-one combat, and their gods were the same. If Zeus got into a large fight, he'd bring his retinue along with him. Even Ares tended to fight with the goddesses Eris and Enyo alongside.

If the games followed what I know of the Greek myths (and taking into account my limited knowledge of the plot of the games), if Kratos killed off Persephone in the prequel Chains of Olympus - before he even became God of War - then he's pretty much screwed. Unless there's a very good reason otherwise, Kratos now has Hades and Demeter as mortal enemies. Hades he could possibly escape if Kratos never visits the underworld again (which I'm fairly sure he does; I think he defeats Persephone there, which means he's up the Styx without a paddle). Demeter would kill the world with perpetual famine until Kratos was eliminated, which means Kratos would very quickly have all of the planet as well as the entire pantheon offside. Game over.

Of course, that's not what happens. Somehow Hades, Demeter and the rest of them are all hunky-dory about one of their number being killed by a mortal, and allow Kratos to pick them off one by one. That's because Kratos has the ultimate trump card, Protagonist Power, which is a given if he faces absolutely anything in a God of War setting. Therefore, if the prerequisite is that the battle is in a GoW setting, Kratos wins. If the mythology is allowed to dictate events, Kratos loses.

(Incidentally, what in-story reason is given for the Greek gods allowing Kratos to kill Persephone? I'd expect Demeter at least to be world-murderingly pissed off, regardless of the motive).

[Anung Un Rama]

Norse Gods. Without question.

What about Vidar? Seriously, I'm a little disappointed that noone has mentioned him yet, but Kratos doesn't have a hope against him.

Vidar is the son of Odin, second most powerful of the gods, behind Odin and the God of silence and revenge - think of a cross between Loki and Thor and youve got Vidar.

Someone earlier mentioned that Fenrir would be a suitable enemy for Kratos; well in Ragnarok, Vidar is fated to kill Fenrir with his bare hands, literally ripping him in half. Only compounding this is the fact that Vidar is one of the only gods fated to survive Ragnarok and rule the new world.

Pretty convincing stuff.

[Graymayre]

If a being like Kratos was in the stream of Norse time, don't you think that the history would be altered? (if say he was considered a native to the plane). If Kratos wasn't capable of killing the gods because the time says that he never did it, then how is he capable of having the fight in the first place or even existing?

This can only mean that, since Kratos is existing and is capable of fighting the Norse Gods in this vs. situation, then he is either part of the time stream (and thus the history would be altered to allow his existence) or Kratos is a seperate entity unbarred by the restrictions of their universe's predestination. If the former we do not know whether or not he can kill the Gods. Maybe it says he will, maybe not.

If the latter, then it doesn't matter. He kills the gods because history cannot defy him

He defies history.

Forgot to mention, Greek Mythology also has predestination. Did Greek myth ever have something like, say, one of the gods dieing in the future?

[lobablob]

Graymayre, on one hand you seem to say that Kratos wins because of plot power, but on the other hand you seem to deny that the Norse Pantheon can benefit from plot power. I think the only fair way would be to deny both their plot power.

[lostlittlebear]

Alternatively, Odin has Loki sneak around and throw a stick wherever Kratos goes, yelling "I dedicate this battle to Odin" each time.

OMG! Kratos is Shadow in videogame form! Now it all makes sense!

[deuxhero]

Forgot to mention, Greek Mythology also has predestination. Did Greek myth ever have something like, say, one of the gods dieing in the future?

Something about if Zeus had a child with such and such they would kill him, but Zeus (in something highly unusual for Zeus) didn't have a child with them.

[drakir_nosslin]

...using the midgard snake as a whip, smashing the roots of the worldtree, thus wreaking havoc upon midgard an valhalla, and stuff.

The awesomness of this is overwhelming, it's wonderful, I think that I prefer this to the normal Ragnarök.

[Froogleyboy]

The norse gods would totally take Kratos. That is all.

[Zevox]

Something about if Zeus had a child with such and such they would kill him, but Zeus (in something highly unusual for Zeus) didn't have a child with them.

That was a generalized prophecy that the child of Thetis (a Nereid, or sea nymph) would be greater than its father. Zeus wanted to bed her (like most everything else that moved in Greek mythology, really), but was afraid of being overthrown by the resulting child if he did - in fact, afraid that any god sleeping with her might yield a child who could overthrow him, so he arranged for her to marry a mortal. The resulting child was Achilles.

Actually, Achilles is another example of a sort of "fate" in Greek mythology, although in his case it is two fates he got to choose between. Either die young but win everlasting glory at Troy, or go home to a long and happy life but lose his glory and be forgotten after he died. Obviously, he wound up with the first of the two.

Zevox

[Kyouhen]

I haven't played a God of War game, but that would be my reasoning. If the contest rules are that it's to be "God of War" style, then Kratos winning is a requirement. Any mythology Kratos is put against will be gimped to the point where he will win. After all, there's no way a demigod could kill off most of the main players in the Greek pantheon if they were playing by Greek mythology rules.

As I'm only loosely aware of the plot of the games I'm assuming they take liberties with the mythology, because it's not as if the Greek pantheon would sit idly by while someone tore their way through their number. The Greeks were all about strategic team warfare rather than one-on-one combat, and their gods were the same. If Zeus got into a large fight, he'd bring his retinue along with him. Even Ares tended to fight with the goddesses Eris and Enyo alongside.

If the games followed what I know of the Greek myths (and taking into account my limited knowledge of the plot of the games), if Kratos killed off Persephone in the prequel Chains of Olympus - before he even became God of War - then he's pretty much screwed. Unless there's a very good reason otherwise, Kratos now has Hades and Demeter as mortal enemies. Hades he could possibly escape if Kratos never visits the underworld again (which I'm fairly sure he does; I think he defeats Persephone there, which means he's up the Styx without a paddle). Demeter would kill the world with perpetual famine until Kratos was eliminated, which means Kratos would very quickly have all of the planet as well as the entire pantheon offside. Game over.

Of course, that's not what happens. Somehow Hades, Demeter and the rest of them are all hunky-dory about one of their number being killed by a mortal, and allow Kratos to pick them off one by one. That's because Kratos has the ultimate trump card, Protagonist Power, which is a given if he faces absolutely anything in a God of War setting. Therefore, if the prerequisite is that the battle is in a GoW setting, Kratos wins. If the mythology is allowed to dictate events, Kratos loses.

(Incidentally, what in-story reason is given for the Greek gods allowing Kratos to kill Persephone? I'd expect Demeter at least to be world-murderingly pissed off, regardless of the motive).

As I said, "God of War" style is not saying the rules are intended as a God of War game. We're assuming that Kratos is hunting down the Norse gods one at a time and that the Norse gods aren't going to gang up on him all at once, much like the events in the games with the Greek gods. If the Greek gods had ganged up on him he probably would have lost, and he definitely would lose if the Norse gods did the same.

That's not to say the Norse gods won't do what they can to stop him as he hunts them, I could easily see Loki popping up and making things difficult until Kratos goes and tracks him down.

And yes, we're taking away both teams' plot power. Kratos is not going to automatically win for being Kratos, and the Norse gods aren't going to automatically win because someone else is destined to kill them. That takes all the fun out of it.

[hanzo66]

I haven't played a God of War game, but that would be my reasoning. If the contest rules are that it's to be "God of War" style, then Kratos winning is a requirement. Any mythology Kratos is put against will be gimped to the point where he will win. After all, there's no way a demigod could kill off most of the main players in the Greek pantheon if they were playing by Greek mythology rules.

As I'm only loosely aware of the plot of the games I'm assuming they take liberties with the mythology, because it's not as if the Greek pantheon would sit idly by while someone tore their way through their number. The Greeks were all about strategic team warfare rather than one-on-one combat, and their gods were the same. If Zeus got into a large fight, he'd bring his retinue along with him. Even Ares tended to fight with the goddesses Eris and Enyo alongside.

If the games followed what I know of the Greek myths (and taking into account my limited knowledge of the plot of the games), if Kratos killed off Persephone in the prequel Chains of Olympus - before he even became God of War - then he's pretty much screwed. Unless there's a very good reason otherwise, Kratos now has Hades and Demeter as mortal enemies. Hades he could possibly escape if Kratos never visits the underworld again (which I'm fairly sure he does; I think he defeats Persephone there, which means he's up the Styx without a paddle). Demeter would kill the world with perpetual famine until Kratos was eliminated, which means Kratos would very quickly have all of the planet as well as the entire pantheon offside. Game over.

Of course, that's not what happens. Somehow Hades, Demeter and the rest of them are all hunky-dory about one of their number being killed by a mortal, and allow Kratos to pick them off one by one. That's because Kratos has the ultimate trump card, Protagonist Power, which is a given if he faces absolutely anything in a God of War setting. Therefore, if the prerequisite is that the battle is in a GoW setting, Kratos wins. If the mythology is allowed to dictate events, Kratos loses.

(Incidentally, what in-story reason is given for the Greek gods allowing Kratos to kill Persephone? I'd expect Demeter at least to be world-murderingly pissed off, regardless of the motive).

Persephone decided to destroy the tower that held up the world or something because she felt like she got really screwed over by the Olympians as well. Kratos ended up having to kill her to save the world (while abandoning his daughter forever) and putting Atlas in the position that he holds now: Holding the world up.

Hades being pissed at Kratos is addressed in the third game. Before his boss battle Hades talks about "Grievances" that Kratos has committed against him (killing his niece Athena, his brother Poseidon and his queen). Predictably the battle does not go well for the Lord of the Underworld.

[konfeta]

Can Kratos survive a blow that can pulverize a mountain from a weapon that is physically incapable of missing?

... would be able to strike as firmly as he wanted, whatever his aim, and the hammer would never fail, and if he threw it at something, it would never miss and never fly so far from his hand that it would not find its way back, and when he wanted, it would be so small that it could be carried inside his tunic.

I, mean, really, Thor is just on another whole level than Kratos. This is what he fights and kills only to die to what is described as "poisoning that sky":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rmungandr

The Serpent makes the Titans look like babies.

[Eldan]

Ah, yes. Cue all the stupid "Thor's Hammer" jokes from Sandman.

[Da Beast]

The Norse gods. God of War is the most over rated game I've ever played and Kratos is a boring, unlikeable protagonist. When did sociopath become synonymous with badass? Thor wins by merit of being a better character.

[Thane of Fife]

Can Kratos survive a blow that can pulverize a mountain from a weapon that is physically incapable of missing?

Probably - I'd wager he could survive hits from Zeus's thunderbolts in the game. Read this, and then remember that, somehow, Kratos killed Zeus.

In particular, you might note:

thunderbolts have burnt to ashes the mountains hurled at Olympos

And note from here,

[Zeus]... massed a storm, with lightning in the squalls, and thunder and the bolts that never miss

I'm not a huge fan of Kratos, but if these fights are handled similarly to the ones in the games (i.e., one-on-one, and the Norse gods are reduced in power similarly to the Greek gods), I don't really see how he can lose these battles. Maybe Loki can do something.

[Icewalker]

Ah, yes. Cue all the stupid "Thor's Hammer" jokes from Sandman.

Hah, forget Sandman, the Prose Edda practically makes them itself! It is Norse mythology canon that Mjolnir gets bigger when Thor rubs it.

They're not exactly subtle.

[konfeta]

Well, if you go that route, then might as well call this debate "If we depower the Norse Pantheon to the point where they are on the same strength as the GoW Greek Pantheon and restrict them to the same Sorting Algorithm of Power 1 on 1 combat, will Kratos beat them?"

Um... Duh?

[Erts]

All I can say is, I would definitely want to play this game.

[Icewalker]

All I can say is, I would definitely want to play this game.

I second this wholeheartedly. T'would be awesome.

[The Glyphstone]

Wait for GoWIV. That'll probably be the content.

[Kyouhen]

Probably - I'd wager he could survive hits from Zeus's thunderbolts in the game. Read this, and then remember that, somehow, Kratos killed Zeus.

In particular, you might note:


And note from here,


I'm not a huge fan of Kratos, but if these fights are handled similarly to the ones in the games (i.e., one-on-one, and the Norse gods are reduced in power similarly to the Greek gods), I don't really see how he can lose these battles. Maybe Loki can do something.

The key thing about Zeus though is that he isn't trained in combat. If Kratos can survive the lightning, it comes down to hand-to-hand and I don't see Zeus faring too well in that. The Norse gods, however, have proven to be quite fond of melee.

Also we aren't powering down the Norse gods to the level of the Greek gods. It's more of a power comparison assuming Kratos is more powerful than the Greek gods and where that puts him against the Norse gods.

[TheFallenOne]

Of course, tricking Kratos into some horrible demise doesn't seem to work, most of the time. I mean, they chuck him into Hell (or in this case, Hel) ALL the time to little effect. So, hey, who knows.

Then don't chuck him into Hel(the Nordic Hel isn't comparable to Hades or the christian Hell anyway).
I never played God of War, but Kratos sounds like someone who'd rather enjoy Valhalla.

So, Odin or Loki step up to Kratos, explain what Valhalla looks like, Kratos challenges Thor and goes down gloriously after a long and epic fight when Thor finally decides that enough is enough and stops drinking an ocean of mead and making love to his wife while dogding Kratos' blows and pulverizes him with a swing of his hammer that accidentaly causes the Rhodes earthquake

Kratos is in Valhalla, the Northern gods all survive and get an awesome Einherjar to boot. Everyones happy, moral victory for the gods

[SilverSheriff]

It's more of a power comparison assuming Kratos is more powerful than the Greek gods and where that puts him against the Norse gods.

But whenever someone brings up a valid point about why the Norse gods would win someone chucks in another 'reason' why "KRATOS IS MEGA-SUPER AWESOME AND WILL ALWAYS WIN!"

[Trazoi]

Hades being pissed at Kratos is addressed in the third game. Before his boss battle Hades talks about "Grievances" that Kratos has committed against him (killing his niece Athena, his brother Poseidon and his queen). Predictably the battle does not go well for the Lord of the Underworld.

Somehow I don't see a Greek god waiting three games before deciding to go all deistic on his ass. Greek gods weren't known for their patience (although granted Hades might be an exception.)

And I guess the game doesn't address Demeter, the harvest goddess and Persephone's mother, who given her established personality in mythology would kill the entire world with perpetual winter when losing her beloved daughter.

As I said, "God of War" style is not saying the rules are intended as a God of War game. We're assuming that Kratos is hunting down the Norse gods one at a time and that the Norse gods aren't going to gang up on him all at once, much like the events in the games with the Greek gods. If the Greek gods had ganged up on him he probably would have lost, and he definitely would lose if the Norse gods did the same.

That's not to say the Norse gods won't do what they can to stop him as he hunts them, I could easily see Loki popping up and making things difficult until Kratos goes and tracks him down.

If Kratos doesn't have plot power and is against the entire, ungimped Norse pantheon as in mythology, Kratos loses. Most of the Norse pantheon were combinations of uber-warriors, tricksters and seers. Kratos wouldn't get very far in a whirlwind of slaughter before the pantheon comes up with a plan to stop him. And without plot power I doubt Kratos could stand up to Thor, Odin or most of the Norse gods or goddess. Maybe if he had the support of Loki to begin with he could stand a fireball's chance in Hel. But even then, once Kratos kills any Norse god then he's pretty much screwed.

The only thing I've heard about Kratos that gave him a chance was he had the backing of Athena, the favourite of Zeus. But surely he can't have that now - what with him having killed everyone. He'll need new plot power to stand a chance against any other pantheon. Without that, he's a smear under Mjollnir.

Of course if Kratos didn't have plot bending power I don't see how he could have survived against the Greek pantheon. How did he end up with Athena's support in the first place? She liked clever heroes, not bloodthirsty savages. If Kratos really was a favourite of Athena, he'd have been in a old-school adventure game.

> USE MIRROR ON MEDUSA

[chiasaur11]

Somehow I don't see a Greek god waiting three games before deciding to go all deistic on his ass. Greek gods weren't known for their patience (although granted Hades might be an exception.)

And I guess the game doesn't address Demeter, the harvest goddess and Persephone's mother, who given her established personality in mythology would kill the entire world with perpetual winter when losing her beloved daughter.


If Kratos doesn't have plot power and is against the entire, ungimped Norse pantheon as in mythology, Kratos loses. Most of the Norse pantheon were combinations of uber-warriors, tricksters and seers. Kratos wouldn't get very far in a whirlwind of slaughter before the pantheon comes up with a plan to stop him. And without plot power I doubt Kratos could stand up to Thor, Odin or most of the Norse gods or goddess. Maybe if he had the support of Loki to begin with he could stand a fireball's chance in Hel. But even then, once Kratos kills any Norse god then he's pretty much screwed.

The only thing I've heard about Kratos that gave him a chance was he had the backing of Athena, the favourite of Zeus. But surely he can't have that now - what with him having killed everyone. He'll need new plot power to stand a chance against any other pantheon. Without that, he's a smear under Mjollnir.

Of course if Kratos didn't have plot bending power I don't see how he could have survived against the Greek pantheon. How did he end up with Athena's support in the first place? She liked clever heroes, not bloodthirsty savages. If Kratos really was a favourite of Athena, he'd have been in a old-school adventure game.

> USE MIRROR ON MEDUSA

Oh, I dunno. Could be a FPS.

[Graymayre]

Graymayre, on one hand you seem to say that Kratos wins because of plot power, but on the other hand you seem to deny that the Norse Pantheon can benefit from plot power. I think the only fair way would be to deny both their plot power.

I don't deny the power of plot for either side, I just think that it's inane to say that predestination completely safeguards the norse gods in this situation. It's possible that Kratos still doesn't have a chance to kill them, but we aren't given the gift of knowing what the stream of time in norse mythology would be if a being like kratos existed in the universe.

[kpenguin]

Hah, forget Sandman, the Prose Edda practically makes them itself! It is Norse mythology canon that Mjolnir gets bigger when Thor rubs it.

They're not exactly subtle.

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[The Glyphstone]

Captain Hammer: "And these are not the hammer."

...

Captain Hammer: "Not violating board rules. If you've highlighted this, you probably know the quote already."

[Thane of Fife]

The key thing about Zeus though is that he isn't trained in combat. If Kratos can survive the lightning, it comes down to hand-to-hand and I don't see Zeus faring too well in that. The Norse gods, however, have proven to be quite fond of melee.

Also we aren't powering down the Norse gods to the level of the Greek gods. It's more of a power comparison assuming Kratos is more powerful than the Greek gods and where that puts him against the Norse gods.

Well, while Zeus generally doesn't seem to be that skilled in melee (though he did somehow defeat Kampe before he had his thunderbolts, as well as holding his own along with his fellows for 10 years against the titans), there's no reason why he should ever get there. Even if, somehow, Kratos survives mountain-charring thunderbolts,

[Typhon] cut straight off sections of the torrent-beds, and designed to crush the breast of Zeus which no iron can wound; the mass of rock came hurtling at Zeus, but Zeus blew a light puff from the edge of his lips, and that gentle breath turned the whirling rock aside with all its towering crags.

Zeus should be able to easily force him away.

I am, in principle, arguing that Zeus is more powerful than anyone in the Norse pantheon, and that if Kratos could defeat him, then no Norse deity really stands a chance (not in a direct fight, anyways).