LGBTitp - Part Six

[GallóglachMaxim]

I thought that Pansexuality meant you were “gender blind” or “sex blind”. Meaning you don’t consider a persons sex or gender and aren’t attracted to those aspects of a person, while bisexuals do take those things into considerations.

That's the distinction that I always used. I wouldn't consider myself pansexual because I'm attracted differently people depending on their gender, but not necessarily more or less.

[Fay Graydon]

I was under the Impression that Being Pansexual meant that you were attracted to both males and females exactly 50/50 whereas Bisexual indicates a preference for one gender.

And I'm pretty sure Asexual is not really giving a damn about sexual relationships or not being attracted to either gender at all.

[Coidzor]

Asexual comes in a couple of flavors; those with enough of a suppressed sex drive to be noticeably effected and below the norm, those who simply LACK a sex drive altogether, and those who are simply repulsed by the idea of sexuality and its related subtopics, like physical contact.

[Worira]

Asexual comes in a number of flavors; for example, budding, binary fission, and spore formation.

I fixed it for you.:smalltongue:

[Yora]

I was under the Impression that Being Pansexual meant that you were attracted to both males and females exactly 50/50 whereas Bisexual indicates a preference for one gender.

And I'm pretty sure Asexual is not really giving a damn about sexual relationships or not being attracted to either gender at all.

As one of us many pansexuals here, this time I have to say I clear no!
This would be as far from pansexual as 100% heterosexuality.

But we're all learning new things continually.

I thought that Pansexuality meant you were “gender blind” or “sex blind”. Meaning you don’t consider a persons sex or gender and aren’t attracted to those aspects of a person, while bisexuals do take those things into considerations.

+1.

[Ostien]

If they're truly androgynous then they're actually intersexed and fall outside of the binary sexes. If they fall within the binary sexes but have a genderqueer/**** self-identity they still count as whatever naughty bits they have. If they're trans, well, they're trans and fall into that morass of questions.

@Coidzor
I take some issue with this. This, imo, misses the point when it comes to people who are pansexual who define that as not caring about sex, so why are we even talking about genitals? Pan (for me) is a sexual orientation that is not really focused on sex and genitals so saying that a genderqueer person, or any person for that matter, will have their true nature revealed when naked (as you said: they still count as whatever naughty bits they have) nullifies the attraction not based on sex/genitals for pansexuals. So while I agree, from other parts of your post, that genitals do matter for most I would say that pan throws that on it's head and makes it rather useless.

Also back to the: how does androgyny imply intersexed, how does it imply genitals at all. Androgyny is interpretation of a expression as you said, but that of an ambiguous gender expression not sex. I've seen naked androgynous people and still say they are quite androgynous regardless. I don't think the buck stops with genitals for androgynous people that andro has far more to do with gender then sex.

Something else bothers me in your post (and I may be misinterpreting) with regard to genderqueers not being able to define themselves irrespective of their sex which can be very insensitive and insulting even. Many genderqueers have to deal with **** like that on an everyday bases: "well, you're really a girl, you have a vagina right?" as it is invasive, rude and misses the point of genderqueers who find their genitals completely irrelevant.

Look I'm not trying to start a flame/wall-o-text war but I felt I needed to say my piece. To be honest I have no problem with you at all and generally like it when you post but this is something that hits me close. So yeah no malicious intent here, perhaps just some clumsy wording

also to clarify

And you were seeming to say that you were operating with the most basic form of transman/transwoman = gender-sex disagreement of the diametrically opposed variety.
... Though if I'm operating under an erroneous conclusion, I need to know.

You're not operating under an erroneous conclusion just perhaps a muddled and incomplete one (and hey were into pretty muddled stuff and no one can say anything with certainty ). This speaks to the distinction between trans as transitioning and trans as transcending or transgressive. This actually is a big problem is differing trans communities. Usually terms like trans-masculine and trans-feminine are used and lessen confusion. Some transition but still don't want to be placed in a binary. and there can be many more examples and combinations. Its a wonderful world of confusion and I generally love it.

[Jacklu]

Ooh, lots of discussion.

Okay.

Pansexual is generally used to describe a person for whom sex/gender/whatever else plays no significant role in who they are attracted to.

Asexual refers to somebody who is either repulsed by sexual contact, is incapable of sexual attraction, or lacks a sex drive altogether. This does not mean asexual people don't have sex. Particularly third category.

For example, Jackie is herself pansexual in so far as I can be. I have found myself attracted to individuals from all over the spectrum. I am also mostly asexual. I lack almost all drive to have sex. Is just not interesting to me for its own sake. Which isn't to say I don't entertain the idea of sex. Just that it would be for any future partner's sake or for the purpose of having kids.

And on a non-discussion note, yet more people have called me "ma'am" or "she." I am immeasurably happy that I am growing out my hair. More then a few have told me it is very pretty.


EDIT: Looking back, I see this is a bit of a heated discussion. Must it get unfriendly? I mean... these are the kinds of terms that of their very nature unclear and ill defined. This is the kind of stuff that professionals have been debating and failing to nail down for quite some time now. No sense getting bent out of shape over. kay?

[Serpentine]

What? Dammit! I put in a pretty detailed post, and it's gone!
*sigh*
Lets see what I can remember Won't be as good as before, but anyways...

Sexuality is about the sex/es one is attracted to. Gender is nothing but preference, like long hair on guys or big breasts on women. A guy isn't any less heterosexual because he's attracted to butch girls, nor a girl for being attracted to effeminate guys. A guy also is still heterosexual if he likes girls for no identifiable reason. Similarly, whether a person is attracted to both sexes for their respective masculinity and femininity, or for no particular reason, it doesn't change the fact that they are not attracted overwhelmingly to one sex or the other.
Transexuals blur the line and can complicate things, including with regard to preferences and prejudices, but in my opinion they are considered the sex they prefer.
Ugh... Dammit! I had more specific stuff that explains better what I'm getting at! Why did it have to disappear?!
Basically, as far as I'm concerned, there is no meaningful difference between "bisexual" and "pansexual", except in that the latter may be considered semantically more accurate, any more than there should be different terms for "heterosexual who prefers really feminine women" and "heterosexual for whom relative femininity has no impact on his attraction".
I've fallen into repeating myself The original wasn't as much, honestly...

[Yora]

We're all repeating ourselves and each other.

Looking back, I see this is a bit of a heated discussion. Must it get unfriendly?

Yes, it's heated, but I don't percieve it as unfriendly. I think we know each other at least well enough to know that most people here are really not at all prejudiced when it comes to genderqueers.

I am immeasurably happy that I am growing out my hair. More then a few have told me it is very pretty.

Pics!

[Ostien]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here on the meaningful difference between bi and pansexual.

I am not attracted to sexes I'm attracted to people with varying non sex characteristics, so does that make me asexual? (well no but if sexuality is attraction to sexes then it seems to fit) I just see genitals (penis, vagina, indeterminate etc.) as a means of generating pleasure but not really significant/important in who I am attracted to.

EDIT:

Yes, it's heated, but I don't percieve it as unfriendly. I think we know each other at least well enough to know that most people here are really not at all prejudiced when it comes to genderqueers.

Exactly, I want to be clear that I'm not intending to create a negative atmosphere with my posts or target people. I can just be somewhat strongly opinionated and may rub folks the wrong way.

[Nameless]

It’s fascinating how much humans like to categorise things, to the point of not just giving names by dividing which sex people are attracted to, but to go further and separate it by how they are attracted to that particular sex.

[Fay Graydon]

I have a boyfriend now ^.^
(is defiantly not trying to derail the long running debate on definitions of terms that don't really matter to us as we are them)

[Lyesmith]

I have a boyfriend now ^.^
(is defiantly not trying to derail the long running debate on definitions of terms that don't really matter to us as we are them)

D'awww! <3

[Ilena]

I on the other hand no longer do :P For reasons i wont get into here, but such is life there must be balance. But congrats though!

[Lix Lorn]

I haven't and never have.
Unless the near constant flirting with Chloe, Asta and a couple of people outside the forum counts...

...
Sigh...

[Pyrian]

If constant flirting counted I'd have a fricken' harem.

[Lix Lorn]

XD
Ah, but *my* flirting is a sign of my increasing desperation.

[Coidzor]

XD
Ah, but *my* flirting is a sign of my increasing desperation.

See, you should start flirting before you're desperate so that you can grind its skill ranks up for when you actually want to get into someone's pants.

[Lix Lorn]

But then if i'd got a critical 20 when I DIDN'T want it i'd be screwed.
...
Possibly literally.

[Pyrian]

Flirting on autopilot has gotten me into trouble a few times. That's just something you have to learn - and it's best to learn it before you're desperate!

...I seem to have maxed out on desperation. I refuse to lower my standards any further than they already are. Which is a problem, because I'm pretty sure they're still too high.

[Lix Lorn]

I have the Grease Issue.
'...I need a (wo)man! But my heart is set on you!'
I need someone. Unfortunately, the number of people who would be acceptable is about four. Two are taken. One isn't interested. The fourth is gay.

[golentan]

I have the Grease Issue.
'...I need a (wo)man! But my heart is set on you!'
I need someone. Unfortunately, the number of people who would be acceptable is about four. Two are taken. One isn't interested. The fourth is gay.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I was under the impression that that last was not *yet* a problem.

[Nameless]

I have the Grease Issue.
'...I need a (wo)man! But my heart is set on you!'
I need someone. Unfortunately, the number of people who would be acceptable is about four. Two are taken. One isn't interested. The fourth is gay.

*offers hugs* .-.

[Derjuin]

Aww, sorry to hear that Lix

*offers huggles and snuzzles*

[Serpentine]

I am not attracted to sexes I'm attracted to people with varying non sex characteristics, so does that make me asexual? (well no but if sexuality is attraction to sexes then it seems to fit) I just see genitals (penis, vagina, indeterminate etc.) as a means of generating pleasure but not really significant/important in who I am attracted to.

So you're attracted people of both/any sex. Then you're bisexual, or pansexual if you prefer that term for "not mostly attracted to one sex" *shrug* Like I said, it's no different than if I were attracted to effeminate males, or any men for no definable reason.

Yay Fay ^_^

[golentan]

I am not attracted to sexes I'm attracted to people with varying non sex characteristics, so does that make me asexual? (well no but if sexuality is attraction to sexes then it seems to fit) I just see genitals (penis, vagina, indeterminate etc.) as a means of generating pleasure but not really significant/important in who I am attracted to.

So, actually on reflection I have a question for you.

What criteria do you use to determine physical attractiveness? Fitness? Structural (bones and other "fixed" morphology)? Aural or Scent criteria? Motion patterns? Secondary sexual characteristics? Tertiary? "Plumage" cues (deliberate visual changes through clothes, hair color, etc.)? Other?

Please leave off any purely mental and emotional criteria for mates. I realize that's the most important part, but I'm only interested in what goes on to trigger a moment of arousal when such things happen/are necessary.

I'm sorry if I offend, but I'm going to be off in my corner of crazy furiously scribbling notes to myself. I am genuinely curious, in part because I have trouble figuring out what makes people tick normally, much less unusual specimens. It's the new data smell gets me up in the morning: I creep out roommates by taking notes on how they sleep during different emotional phases.

[Delta]

What criteria do you use to determine physical attractiveness? Fitness? Structural (bones and other "fixed" morphology)? Aural or Scent criteria? Motion patterns? Secondary sexual characteristics? Tertiary? "Plumage" cues (deliberate visual changes through clothes, hair color, etc.)? Other?

I've already thought about this question long and hard, and the only criteria I've found is difficult to explain, I'd call it "completeness". I really can't find a consistent set of criteria I find attractive, it all just has to fit together somehow, there are vastly different types of person I find attractive.

[Lix Lorn]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I was under the impression that that last was not *yet* a problem.

Yeah, but it will be as soon as I can get something done about it. He knows this.

(Huggles Nameless and Derjuin) Thanks for the hugs. ^_^

[Danne]

@Lix Lorn: I'm sorry, I hope you find someone soon. *offers hugs*

---

So, actually on reflection I have a question for you.

What criteria do you use to determine physical attractiveness? Fitness? Structural (bones and other "fixed" morphology)? Aural or Scent criteria? Motion patterns? Secondary sexual characteristics? Tertiary? "Plumage" cues (deliberate visual changes through clothes, hair color, etc.)? Other?

Please leave off any purely mental and emotional criteria for mates. I realize that's the most important part, but I'm only interested in what goes on to trigger a moment of arousal when such things happen/are necessary.

Question wasn't directed at me, but I also hold to the "sexual characteristics don't matter in a mate" ideology, so I'll answer.

The short answer is that I really depend on the mental/emotional stuff -- given that I'm very social phobic, I can't even conceive of dating someone with whom I don't already have some sort of bond. Skipping over that for the sake of the question, though, purely physical attraction for me is based primarily off of body structure. I prefer stocky men and lithe women, dunno why. I'm also a little faceblind (don't know if it counts as Prosopagnosia itself, as that's a medical condition, but I have a very difficult time remembering faces until I've seen the person a good half dozen times) so I'm pretty dependent on secondary aspects (the ones you termed "plumage"). Hair styles/colors, especially.

</my 2 cents>

---

Funny thing happened yesterday/today. We read the short story "Miss Ogilvy Finds Herself" (Radclyffe Hall, 1926) for my English class. Most of the kids interpreted the main character as a tomboy-ish woman who felt constrained by gender roles in the post-WWI era (including one girl who got pretty angry at the idea that a woman would have to adopt a masculine persona just to be independent). To which I said, "Huh. I totally read that as an FtM character. You sure you guys read it right?" (Which made some of them think and just baffled the others.) Anyway, I blame you guys.

For an upcoming paper, I need to pick a short story and analyze the way it portrays differences, and I know I want to do something sci-fi. I was planning on doing "Flowers for Algernon" or "A Rose for Ecclesiastes," but that made me wonder if anyone here might know of a good sci-fi (or even fantasy) short story with a trans character? FtM or MtF, I'm not particular. Any ideas?

[golentan]

Yeah, but it will be as soon as I can get something done about it. He knows this.

(Huggles Nameless and Derjuin) Thanks for the hugs. ^_^

I have a secret for you, picked up over my many years of experience: Relationships end. Whether you go your separate ways, or whether one of you dies. Just because you know something will end or even when it will doesn't make it not worth pursuing. So, if you'd be happy together for a few months or years, you should go for it even knowing how it will end. Because if you borrow today's troubles from tomorrow, you'll usually find you have a lot more regrets and a lot fewer good times to look back on*.

(*note: this only applies to inevitable problems. Work towards solutions for evitable ones.)

@Danne & Delta: Oooooh... shiny. Thank you for the input!