LGBTitp - Part Six

[Nameless]

Well it's really relaxed in media in politics by now (during the last local elections in a village in Bavaria of all places, a 20 year old out gay social democrat actually managed to win the mayorship from the incumbent conservative mayor... so yes, things are changing) but it's not like we're in a kind of tolerant utopia right now.

It's still a sad thing that for example, no professional soccer player has come out so far, and even sadder that I can't blame them for it. At the same time, homophobia (especially against males) in schools is still as much of a problem as it has been a decade or two ago, if not worse.

While this is true, I have to agree with Yora. In the eyes of the Law, homosexuality, transexuality etc is legal and people within this “community”* are seen as equals to heterosexuals and what-not. Homophobia only really exists with individuals and individual opinion. While LGBT activism and parades can be good when it comes to changing the law, I think it's bad for changing individual opinion. If anything, it can make things worse. Which is why (Much like Yora) I’m against the whole activism thing, because there's no need for it. LGBT’s /have/ equal rights, parading about it won't do anything other then aggravate those who oppose it.

*I quite hate using that word.

[Yora]

We are different from everyone else, though, and I don't think LGBT culture should be assimilated into the dominant culture.

I don't belong to any LGBT culture. I have two friends whom I suspect to be bisexual, and I post in one LGBT threat on a non-LGBT forum. That's not a culture.
And I don't want to seperate myself from my heterosexual friends in any way. They don't make it an issue, I don't make it, so there's nothing that seperates us.

LGBT’s /have/ equal rights, parading about it won't do anything other then aggravate those who oppose it.

In most places, we havn't. I can marry a woman and adopt a child, or become the legal parent of her childs. I can not marry a man, adopt a child with him, or become the legal parent of his children. And then there's stuff like inheirantance law, which considers a wife as a family member, but a "registered life partner" as mostly just a friend.
I'm not at the most current status of transsexual rights, but I've read that it at least used to be the way, that you can legaly register as the other sex and have your health insurance pay for any treatments only if you get full surgery, and many transsexuals just don't want to have their penis cut off.
There's still lots of things to be done before all people are really equal regardless of sex or gender, even here in Germany. But I don't think the best way to do that is by marching down a street with sunglasses and a sunflower tanga.
People here have now learned that there are many homosexuals and that they have to live with this fact, if they want to or not. That's an important first step, and I admire the people who managed that with their sailor-stripper outfits. But now we have to educate the majority of society, that we are in fact not crazy sex-maniacs who like to get uncomfortably close to people who still have some reservations. And I think that can be done by people who have earned the respect of the people and show that non-heterosexuals can be very much like everyone else, and in fact are. And more conservative people probably can be much better convinced by a man with a tie and a woman in a business dress.

[rakkoon]

I always though that was funny. My best friend at uni was a lesbian and she talked about discrimination. She wanted to be treated the same by everyone. The only difference is her sexual preference.
Yet I was the only non-gay friend she had, she only went to gay bars and gay clubs. At one point she had a girlfriend who really was just gay and wanted nothing to do with a seperate community.
Interesting tension between trying to fit in and to stand out.

[Nameless]

I don't belong to any LGBT culture. I have two friends whom I suspect to be bisexual, and I post in one LGBT threat on a non-LGBT forum. That's not a culture.
And I don't want to seperate myself from my heterosexual friends in any way. They don't make it an issue, I don't make it, so there's nothing that seperates us.

In most places, we havn't. I can marry a woman and adopt a child, or become the legal parent of her childs. I can not marry a man, adopt a child with him, or become the legal parent of his children. And then there's stuff like inheirantance law, which considers a wife as a family member, but a "registered life partner" as mostly just a friend.
I'm not at the most current status of transsexual rights, but I've read that it at least used to be the way, that you can legaly register as the other sex and have your health insurance pay for any treatments only if you get full surgery, and many transsexuals just don't want to have their penis cut off.
There's still lots of things to be done before all people are really equal regardless of sex or gender, even here in Germany. But I don't think the best way to do that is by marching down a street with sunglasses and a sunflower tanga.
People here have now learned that there are many homosexuals and that they have to live with this fact, if they want to or not. That's an important first step, and I admire the people who managed that with their sailor-stripper outfits. But now we have to educate the majority of society, that we are in fact not crazy sex-maniacs who like to get uncomfortably close to people who still have some reservations. And I think that can be done by people who have earned the respect of the people and show that non-heterosexuals can be very much like everyone else, and in fact are. And more conservative people probably can be much better convinced by a man with a tie and a woman in a business dress.

I was actually talking about places that do have equal rights in the eyes of the law. I think the whole gay couples adopting thing is still illegal in some places is because many people believe that a child needs a father and a mother figure and only a male and female together can offer that. I don't necessarily agree with this, but I can understand this view.
I also think the best way to deal with peoples views on homosexuality and transexuality is education. Yes, I know that’s over used, but I don't mean in the way "Okay kids, this is what homosexuality is…". What I mean is to simply treat sexuality over all as a light subject. Sort of "yeah, this is it" approach in both schools and homes, then people won’t grow up thinking being attracted to the same sex is weird or different. I mean, even when a child goes up to his or her parent after school and asks “Mummy, what does gay mean?”, the usual reaction is “Where did you hear that word?” or “Why do you want to know?” before giving a long awkward explanation and ending with “But it’s totally normal and there’s nothing wrong with it”. This in itself is almost as bad as teaching a child that it’s wrong because of how the child would then perceive the explanation.

[Danne]

You guys are making it sound like activists are bombing government buildings or lynching homophobes or something. I don't see anything wrong with gay rights parades or peaceful protests. I mean, if the Irish get to hold St. Patrick's Day parades, and African Americans get a whole month dedicated to studying their history, then why shouldn't I get to march down Main St. with a rainbow flag? (Not trying to indicate that I'm against St. P's Day or Black History month, btw, just drawing the comparison.) I realize that those are American examples, but I'm sure there are similar holidays in other countries.

In fact, I don't see any way to get equal rights without civil protests. I'm not familiar with the civil rights movements in most other countries, but the Abolitionist, Women's Suffrage, and Civil Rights movements here in the U.S. would have gotten nowhere fast if there hadn't been peaceful (and the occasional non-peaceful, which I am most certainly not advocating) protests.

I also think the best way to deal with peoples views on homosexuality and transexuality is education. Yes, I know that’s over used, but I don't mean in the way "Okay kids, this is what homosexuality is…". What I mean is to simply treat sexuality over all as a light subject. Sort of "yeah, this is it" approach in both schools and homes, then people won’t grow up thinking being attracted to the same sex is weird or different. I mean, even when a child goes up to his or her parent after school and asks “Mummy, what does gay mean?”, the usual reaction is “Where did you hear that word?” or “Why do you want to know?” before giving a long awkward explanation and ending with “But it’s totally normal and there’s nothing wrong with it”. This in itself is almost as bad as teaching a child that it’s wrong because of how the child would then perceive the explanation.

This. I work summers as a camp counselor, and last year this came up with one of the directors. She overheard one of the little kids saying, "That's so gay!" and was trying to explain why he shouldn't say that, but was basically doing the method you describe. I interupted (politely, 'cuz she was my boss and all) and said, "You know how your mommy and daddy love each other? Gay is when a boy loves a boy or a girl loves a girl the same way. So it's not nice to use that word like it's a bad thing!" Kid said "oh," apologized, and ran off to play. Problem solved. The director looked baffled that it could be so simple.

[Lix Lorn]

This. I work summers as a camp counselor, and last year this came up with one of the directors. She overheard one of the little kids saying, "That's so gay!" and was trying to explain why he shouldn't say that, but was basically doing the method you describe. I interupted (politely, 'cuz she was my boss and all) and said, "You know how your mommy and daddy love each other? Gay is when a boy loves a boy or a girl loves a girl the same way. So it's not nice to use that word like it's a bad thing!" Kid said "oh," apologized, and ran off to play. Problem solved. The director looked baffled that it could be so simple.

Go counciller. That's a win, right thar.

[Danne]

Go counciller. That's a win, right thar.

Thank ye.

[albis]

Whoa... I've been so swarmed with university work I've sort of lost track of what was being said (even though I kept lurking around every now and then, it just wasn't the same XD)...
The bad: my university work has just begun, and soon I'll be assaulted with even more...
The good: it's sort-of stimulating, because I like what I'm doing...
The fun: there's this girl I'm rather attracted to -though she's taken so we never go farther than joke-flirting- and yet people all around say I should date this other guy with whom I have a love-hate friendship of sorts (which basically consists of me treating him like ****, him shooting right back at me, and then we both laughing about it over some project or other)... and sometimes I stop and think: it's weird, the way people encourage me to get with this guy I barely have any platonic interest in, while they don't even see my (albeit little) attraction to my lady friend and her red lipstick...

...does anybody else have a sort-of fixation for red lipstick? XD

[Ostien]

...does anybody else have a sort-of fixation for red lipstick? XD

Wearing it or seeing it worn? I'll have to go with yup...

[Lioness]

It can look nice and seductive; it can also look trashy.

Obviously, I prefer the first...

[DabblerWizard]

Book Recommendation

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Academics have a hard time integrating the non-heterosexual perspective into their theories. In many cases, from biology, to anthropology, researchers will ignore the gay side of things.

Not today, however!

There's a great book out, called Evolution's Rainbow, written by Joan Roughgarden. She's a transgendered ecologist that's taken the time to break down classical Darwinian Sexual Selection.

I'm reading the book now. I highly recommend it, not only because it's relatively inexpensive as far as academic books go, and not only because it's funny and has a huge section on human sexuality, but because I think it's nice to hear science defend us gays, for once.

Nerd Moment

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Did someone mention post-modernism?

Modernism, says that there's an objective truth that can be found out there in the world, that things like logic and reasoning and science can lead us towards it.

Post-modernism, on the other hand, says that there is no objective truth, that reality is entirely subjectively constructed. Logic and reasoning can't lead us towards an ultimate truth, because it simply doesn't exist. The focus then, is more on emotion, and experience.

[Terraoblivion]

I thought that St. Patrick's day was a cultural event and that nobody treated black history month as anything but a joke.

Like i said in my very first post, i do believe that activism has an important place. The modern degree of acceptance of homosexuality, transsexuality etc. would never have happened without the work of activists. It is of very definite importance. However, there also comes a time when the things that makes for effective activism, such as a clearly defined goals, unity, discipline and high visibility might not be the best tools anymore. The first three can easily grow oppressive and rigid, while the last constantly reminds others that you are different which is not what you want when you are trying to win a more deeply felt acceptance.

[Ormur]

I'm hardly speaking from my own experience but LGBT "activism" in the form of parades and such has been a pretty big success in improving the view of society towards LGBT's in my home country. Gay Pride Parades are viewed as fun for the whole family and they're almost as big as the Independence day celebrations in terms of participation. We also have come pretty close to equality before the law and of course we have the only "openly" gay head of government. It also has much to do with most people frankly not caring what people do in private whether they personally approve of gays or not. It's been pretty much a quiet revolution in attitude but without any kind of "activism" from the LGBT community there would probably have been no change at all.

[golentan]

All the talk of gay activism makes me realize I missed the Day of Silence last week.

I've always thought of activism as anything consciously done to advance a cause. Which means that while some forms may be useful at the beginning of a movement (the over the top LGBT "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" stuff, say) may actually be harmful later on. I think at this point, things don't need to be so confrontational. Violence against gays isn't tolerated the way it was just a few decades ago in most places, so there's not as much need for "gay communities" for the safety in numbers thing, so less gay culture specifically, less for enemies of the LGBT movement to point at as "immoral behavior" (whether or not it is is another matter) less pushback and more integration and common ground.

And I think that's a good thing. While it's good for a group to have it's own identity, there's a danger in isolating yourself to preserve that. It makes you Xeno in the eyes of the world at large, and it can be perverted to terrible ends relatively easily. As an example, when I first visited Europe the Jewish communities considered it a great boon to be permitted to form ghettos.

[Serpentine]

We are different from everyone else, though, and I don't think LGBT culture should be assimilated into the dominant culture.

Gay boys like boys, like straight girls do. Gay girls like girls, like straight boys do. Big diff
I have a lesbian... friendly acquaintance, I suppose. As far as I know, the only "culture" she's part of is the hippy crowd.
A "them vs us" mentality may be useful when you really do need to struggle hard even to be acknowledged, much less treated the same as everyone else in everyday life, but when that's largely happened this sort of attitude is just going to perpetuate and inflame the lingering remains of hostility. And... well, it seems like a daft thing to say. Why should who someone is interested in mean they have to have their own little community, isolated and protected from everyone else?

I'm reading the book now. I highly recommend it, not only because it's relatively inexpensive as far as academic books go, and not only because it's funny and has a huge section on human sexuality, but because I think it's nice to hear science defend us gays, for once.

Huh? Science "defends" (to use the term tentatively) homosexuality all the time. It's a new field, sure, but so far as I know there's very little if any hostility towards or hijacking of it in the scientific community.

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Did someone mention post-modernism?

Modernism, says that there's an objective truth that can be found out there in the world, that things like logic and reasoning and science can lead us towards it.

Post-modernism, on the other hand, says that there is no objective truth, that reality is entirely subjectively constructed. Logic and reasoning can't lead us towards an ultimate truth, because it simply doesn't exist. The focus then, is more on emotion, and experience.

Historiography stuff:

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Pretty much, yep. In the context of history, modernism meant an optimistic view that the past is concrete and knowable; the only limiting factor is the evidence available. Post-modernism means an acknowledgement and acceptance that we can never truly know the "truth" of any event; any piece of history is at best a reconstruction or interpretation influenced by present-day subjectivity. Taken to its extreme, all history is fiction and therefore pointless. In actual practice, it means... well, a lot of things, but for example, multiple points of view are necessary to get a better idea of what happened, and how something is "known" is as important as what is "known".

[Danne]

I thought that St. Patrick's day was a cultural event and that nobody treated black history month as anything but a joke.

Here, lemme put spoilers up to cut down on the wall o' text:

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St. Patrick's Day = cultural event, yes. Your point? Mine was that the Irish (who were once, and occasionally still are, heavily discriminated against -- "Irish need not apply," and all that) get to have parades, and so should I.

I have never, ever, ever seen Black History Day treated as a joke. I've seen criticism of it (by Bill Cosby, IIRC) but where I'm from we take it very seriously. Elementary school kids are read picture books about MLK and other important African Americans, middle school kids write essays about the civil rights movement, high schoolers read literature from the Harlem Renaissance and are assigned research papers about influencial black authors, and the media highlights important African Americans in history/the community. What gave you the idea it was a joke?

Like i said in my very first post, i do believe that activism has an important place. The modern degree of acceptance of homosexuality, transsexuality etc. would never have happened without the work of activists. It is of very definite importance.

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What "modern degree of acceptance?" Again, I can only speak as an American, but until gays and lesbians can get married in all fifty states (we've only got five states and the capitol), until certain military laws are changed, and until there are federal laws protecting job security for transgendered people, there will be a place for activism. I won't believe we have true acceptance until I stop seeing kids wearing "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" t-shirts on a Day of Silence.

However, there also comes a time when the things that makes for effective activism, such as a clearly defined goals, unity, discipline and high visibility might not be the best tools anymore. The first three can easily grow oppressive and rigid, while the last constantly reminds others that you are different which is not what you want when you are trying to win a more deeply felt acceptance.

I don't see how goals and unity can become oppressive, though discipline certainly can be. And I'm not sure what's wrong with high visibility, either. I'm not saying that I think gay boys should go up and flirt with known homophobes or anything, as it does us no good to make people uncomfortable (and indeed could be dangerous with certain individuals) but why shouldn't we make our presence known? Should I not be able to hold my significant other's hand walking down the street, or kiss under fireworks like any straight couple might? Should my friend who adores flags avoid hanging a rainbow flag (to join his U.S. flag and his favorite sports teams' banners)? And whyever should I not march in a gay pride parade, the same way that I have marched in parades on Memorial Day and Thanksgiving?

I understand your points about how we need to make being GLBT normal and not a big deal, but I think you're mistaken about how we go about doing it. You say that the mindsets regarding the coming out process are a problem because they place too much focus on the differences, and I think you have a point. But we are different, if only because society views us that way. We need to get people used to the idea of GLBT people in their community (and that that's okay!) and the way to do that is by being visible. Women wouldn't be able to wear pants today if a whole lot of girls way back when hadn't decided to just go ahead and do it, which scandalized a lot of people until they got used to and grew comfortable with the idea. We need to do the same thing.

@Ormur: That sounds lovely. Can I come live in your country?

[Nameless]

You guys are making it sound like activists are bombing government buildings or lynching homophobes or something. I don't see anything wrong with gay rights parades or peaceful protests. I mean, if the Irish get to hold St. Patrick's Day parades, and African Americans get a whole month dedicated to studying their history, then why shouldn't I get to march down Main St. with a rainbow flag? (Not trying to indicate that I'm against St. P's Day or Black History month, btw, just drawing the comparison.) I realize that those are American examples, but I'm sure there are similar holidays in other countries.

In fact, I don't see any way to get equal rights without civil protests. I'm not familiar with the civil rights movements in most other countries, but the Abolitionist, Women's Suffrage, and Civil Rights movements here in the U.S. would have gotten nowhere fast if there hadn't been peaceful (and the occasional non-peaceful, which I am most certainly not advocating) protests.

I’m not saying they can’t do it, of course they can and I wouldn’t stop them. I’m just saying that it’s pointless and if anything makes things worse (In places where equal rights for homosexuals in the eyes of the law exist). I would say the same for Black African protests too.
Protests are only good when fighting something which is within the law, not for fighting something which exists within peoples heads.

[Rappy]

Well, it was only a matter of time before I'd have to admit this. Circumstances made me feel it'd be better to share with the community than keep it all to myself.

I'm not a born female-type woman. For years, I tried to hide behind a shell of masculinity because I was afraid to be who I am, until someone I met helped pull me out of that shell.

I still can't fully realize who I wish to be beyond these walls because of the prejudice of where I live, but I am relieved that there are people that don't hate me for admitting to being the woman that I am.

I just figured I'd let that out here, so....hello everyone in this thread.

[Lix Lorn]

(hugs)
Good for you for accepting it. There's a few of us around...

[Rappy]

*Hugs back*

Yeah, it feels rather good actually yelling to the heavens "screw you world, I am woman, hear me roar!"

Well...to a forum thread, at least.

[Lix Lorn]

I have got to the point where I don't even blink at saying female when signing up to forums and stuff.

[Rappy]

Same here. This was more of a ritualistic proclamation of my admittance of womanhood outside of the mainstream than anything. It's a bit hard to explain, but things made me compelled to do so.

[Asta Kask]

We are different from everyone else, though, and I don't think LGBT culture should be assimilated into the dominant culture.

Be very, very careful with this line of argument. It is all too easy to for someone to say "therefore you should not complain when treated differently."

No, you are not different in any important way - that is why you should have the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else.

[Serpentine]

A question for Science: are you, or do you intend to be, employed in an IT-related occupation?

[Ashen Lilies]

Is that an open question or addressed to someone specific or...?
In my case, no, not beyond what would be considered typical usage of IT in a scientific or medical profession (which is probably quite a bit, actually). Certainly not a tech-guy or programmer, anyway. But now I'm curious as to what precipitated this question.

[Serpentine]

To Rappy. I believe I have detected a trend of transsexuals being disproportionately represented among IT people (or vice-versa). However, it could be due to the online and nerdy nature of this forum. More data needed.

[Rappy]

Nope, I'm not an IT gal. I'm currently....erm....loosely employed in various odds and ends.

Okay, so it's not a good use of my biology background, but my grandmother's been hospitalized since last November (although she's finally going to come home next week), and thus I haven't been able to get any decent work.

Being deemed unsafe to drive doesn't help either.

[Lix Lorn]

I'm not an IT person either.

[Derjuin]

I was going to be one, until I decided not to, mostly because I became very confused when I tried to learn databases (mostly the "This is MySQL, this is a database, make your own now" part).

[Terraoblivion]

I have a theory about why that is, Serpentine. It is by no means a well-founded or statistically substantiated, though. It basically goes that nerdiness is somewhat of a refuge for people who are outcast in one way or another and that feeling is one of the defining traits of the experience of growing up transgendered. And while skewered towards men, nerdiness is still not considered even remotely masculine in general making it safe in that way too. I might be completely wrong though.