BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 5

[Tackyhillbillu]

Again, guys it is fine. I took Vael's baseline the wrong way. If Vael meant superbly skilled for a Mortal, that isn't as big a deal.

And no, Tani isn't normal either. He's very, very good. He's pretty much been focused on Martial Arts since he was young, except for a brief period where he lost his way. As I understand it now, Akemi could probably still beat him, Sword vs. Spear or hand to hand (the two best metrics of comparison), but it wouldn't be an utter blowout.

[AmberVael]

Well, why wouldn't they be able to break human levels of skill?

For the same reasons Ichigo manages to beat everyone up.
It's just plot and setting mischief to make the story work.

Theoretically, yeah, with the given premises a Shinigami probably could become like super awesome skilled... but that's never really demonstrated, and I never thought it was the intention behind the whole age thing of the Shinigami.
But they don't, because have Shinigami as insurmountable isn't fun.

Do you want to have Shinigami who are better in every way than a human in this game? No, that's why this argument started in the first place. And that's my point as to why they weren't that way in canon, and why they shouldn't be that way now.

I think it is an honestly reasonable explanation to say that there really is a plateau of skill, where you just don't get all that much better. Your body has limitations, even if it is at its prime, and to get past that is impossible without some other form of power.
This does mean a Shinigami is usually capable of surpassing humans, yes, but not by ludicrously epic amounts... and theoretically, a prodigy among humans could reach the same level of skill by the time they hit their prime, and match a Shinigami's skill.

The Shinigami would only win through use of spiritual power.

[strawberryman]

Sigh. Because I'm OCD and can't have an uneven number of characters, I'm debating making a Privaron Espada. Though I'm not sure what number she would be. I was thinking 103 or 104.

Oh, yeah. A picture.

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As for her powers... I was thinking force breath, and "cutting wind" attacks.

[Sucrose]

Ichigo manages to beat people because Aizen's haxx extend even into the plot. I thought he explained that pretty well.

As for them only winning through the use of spiritual power... maybe against a true prodigy. Of course, this assumes that their real-world combat experience is worth precisely squat. And that prodigies can't be equally dedicated when they are shinigami.

I agree that the shinigami being insurmountable isn't good for the game. However, I don't buy that we should just ignore the implications of the setting; we need to find a legitimate way for the mortals to be on par with the shinigami, not by just handwaving away the immense benefits of their considerable experience. Perhaps mortals generally have more potent abilities, once awakened, and they have an inherent ability to gain sheer power more quickly. I feel that would fit more closely with canon.

Because, frankly, my recollection is that the ones that have been throwing around spiritual power rather than skill have generally been the mortals. Chad was particularly bad about that, and Ichigo not much better.

[AmberVael]

What I'm saying is that, theoretically, the benefit from skill and training is equal for Shinigami and humans. If a Shinigami trains X amount, and a human trains X amount, they will be equally skilled. I would add to this that (which may be less realistic, but still plausible, I think), after training for a certain amount of time, training doesn't really benefit you anymore (at least not nearly as much), simply because there really is only so much you can learn.

This does mean that Shinigami will normally be better than humans, sure, but it doesn't mean their potential is better than a human's. The difference between Shinigami and human is simply that the Shinigami is the more likely of the two to have actually put time into learning this stuff, while the human hasn't.

I would like to put forward that a Shinigami, in terms of mundane skills, might not be as advanced as people think. They spend tons of time practicing spiritual skills. Kido, Hoho, Shikai, Bankai, that kind of thing. To me, that doesn't necessarily overlap with training in other ways. These things are stated to take a lot of time, which would certainly eat into a Shinigami's capability to train themselves in other areas.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I would like to put forward that a Shinigami, in terms of mundane skills, might not be as advanced as people think. They spend tons of time practicing spiritual skills. Kido, Hoho, Shikai, Bankai, that kind of thing. To me, that doesn't necessarily overlap with training in other ways. These things are stated to take a lot of time, which would certainly eat into a Shinigami's capability to train themselves in other areas.

Or do their duties. Or killing hollows.

[AmberVael]

Well, doing your duties is a form of practice, which helps you train.
Unless you're like, on cleaning duty.

"Being a janitorial Shinigami is terrible! D="

[Tackyhillbillu]

Or do their duties. Or killing hollows.

"Or sleeping, and drinking. And flirting with single and married women both. Speaking of which..."

[Callos_DeTerran]

"Being a janitorial Shinigami is terrible! D="

"But boy can I kick dirt's ass!"

[nothingclever]

Or do their duties. Or killing hollows.

Wouldn't training to ensure combat readiness be one of their duties and isn't killing hollows a form of live fire combat training?

[Frozen_Feet]

I'd like to bring up three sayings about martial arts:

"The best swordsman only has to fear the worst, because he has no idea what that idiot's going to do."

"Prowess in martial arts comes from three things: fitness, skill and determination. Being great in one aspect does not guarantee victory if your opponent has you bested in the other two."

"Never become overconfident of your skills. 80% of battle is pure luck."

[AmberVael]

"But boy can I kick dirt's ass!"

Man, now I want to make a Shinigami with a Shikai that turns their Zanpakuto into a broom.
And a spirit that looks like Hannelore.

[Sucrose]

Vael: I could see the argument there. Once they get to what they consider an acceptable level of skill in mundane fighting techniques, they move on to the skills that would provide more benefit than getting their crescent kicks quite perfect. I'd still argue that there would remain the possibility of someone forgoing the other techniques for pure martial skill. For example, 11th Division.

Further, fighting in Shikai (and sometimes Bankai) very much overlaps with physical skills, at least with those who have direct-combat type zanpaktou, like Ikkaku and Shuuhei.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Man, now I want to make a Shinigami with a Shikai that turns their Zanpakuto into a broom.
And a spirit that looks like Hannelore.

Yes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMRy2...eature=related

[Frozen_Feet]

Man, now I want to make a Shinigami with a Shikai that turns their Zanpakuto into a broom.
And a spirit that looks like Hannelore.

"Did someone call for me?"

Angry Janitor is now in the registry.

[AmberVael]

Hehe, nice.

Also, Spike seems pretty handy with that broom.

And before I forget- since no one seemed to have any objections to edited Akemi, I stuck her in the registry with my other characters.

[KnightDisciple]

Yeah. Any commander with half a brain makes sure his troops have time to a.)unwind, and b.)actually train their skills in an environment where Hollows aren't trying to eat their face.

Because that way, they get better at killing Hollows.

As for a "plateau" of skills...In real life, don't martial artists always keep improving? Until they are physically incapable of doing anything?

I mean, you always see or hear about 90 year old martial artists being able to kick your ass. And it's likely very true. A 70 year old martial artist would lose to a 90 year old, but win against a 50 year old, assuming same style and training methods. The combination of greater repetition for muscle memory, as well as greater experience against a wider range of foes, would combine to make a deadlier warrior.

Now imagine someone who's still in their prime.

Now, mind you. Shinigami can't spend all day training every day. But assume they spend 1 day a week training themselves in physical combat of some sort, if they do so at all.

If they're 120, that's still like someone with, say, 25 years of 5 days a week training. It adds up.

Your average unseated would, again, in my mind, be equal to a member of the Roman Army, so far as "skill level". Competent, well trained, but not gods among men. This of course assumes they don't focus themselves fully on kido or some such.

I mean, it's a graded scale, to be sure. With one end being "Fresh Academy grad who's no better than a brown belt (or whatever mid-range rank in a Mortal martial art)" and the other being "Old Man Yama, who's forgotten more about fighting than half the Earth ever learned". *Shrugs*

[Tackyhillbillu]

Indeed.

What squad was Akemi in?

[AmberVael]

She was in the Kido Corp, actually.

I admit I have some reservations about it, but in some ways I think it is a good fit. She's a highly unusual Shinigami in a number of ways, after all.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I suppose Ude wouldn't have known her then.

[Prime32]

Man, now I want to make a Shinigami with a Shikai that turns their Zanpakuto into a broom.
And a spirit that looks like Hannelore.

Actually, a "witch" shinigami could be interesting...

Or maybe an arrancar, since they could have their zanpakuto's sealed form be a broom. A Bount has the possibility of turning their broom into a cat, as well as being the origin of the "witch" image.

I may have to call dibs on this concept.

[Kuroimaken]

On the experience field: I find it somewhat amusing that no one has brought up Chad and Ishida yet.

Both of them are teenagers. Ishida in particular is established by canon to have trained from early childhood under his grandfather, thereby mastering (or at least learning) a variety of techniques such as Hirenkyaku and (whatever its name was, the technique that allows him to "puppeteer" his broken body), which are comparable to their Shinigami equivalents (*points at that Kamaitachi dude, who was either such a complete idiot as to have never heard of Hohou or genuinely surprised that Ishida could use Hirenkyaku*). Chad, on the other hand, spent the vast majority of his childhood and teenage years getting into fights. By the time they get to Soul Society, both end up fighting Captains. Ishida actually manages to win mostly by sheer increase of spiritual pressure (with the little help of his friend, the plot) while Chad still manages to impress Shunsui despite his lack of finesse.

I'd argue that time spent training in Soul Society is potentially less fruitful than time spent training on Earth; failing that, the quality of the teachers comes to mind as well. Shunsui and Ukitake are considered fairly new as Captains go, but they were trained by the mountain-cleaving man Yamamoto himself. Chad had much less time to train, but he DID train under one of the best teachers available (Yoruichi). The same goes for Ichigo, in addition to the whole "he's a prodigy substitute shinigami" thing.

It's all fairly relative in the end. Also keep in mind that even the "badass normals" in Bleach always end up having a small measure of spiritual power they aren't even aware of anyway.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'd argue that time spent training in Soul Society is potentially less fruitful than time spent training on Earth; failing that, the quality of the teachers comes to mind as well. Shunsui and Ukitake are considered fairly new as Captains go, but they were trained by the mountain-cleaving man Yamamoto himself. Chad had much less time to train, but he DID train under one of the best teachers available (Yoruichi). The same goes for Ichigo, in addition to the whole "he's a prodigy substitute shinigami" thing.

Sorry to detract from an otherwise excellent point, but Shunsui and Ukitake are far from 'new' as captains go, having already been captains for a while during the Turn Back the Pendulum arc.

[strawberryman]

The technique you're thinking of is Ransotengai.

...And yeah, where did you get that Shunsui and Ukitake are newer captains? I was under the impression they were a couple of the oldest ones.

[KnightDisciple]

...When on God's bountiful green Earth are Shunsui and Ukitake considered "new" captains? Like, please, cite me evidence.

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, a "witch" shinigami could be interesting...

Or maybe an arrancar, since they could have their zanpakuto's sealed form be a broom. A Bount has the possibility of turning their broom into a cat, as well as being the origin of the "witch" image.

I may have to call dibs on this concept.

You know, I was considering making a such a Shinigami, but decided one character with middle-life crisis was enough for me.

That said, she would have been a closet otaku, had a perma-release flying mop as her zanpakuto, and she would've gone around shouting "My mop will cleanse the Heavens!"

[Prime32]

...I just had to draw a witch arrancar.

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[Boo]

...When on God's bountiful green Earth are Shunsui and Ukitake considered "new" captains? Like, please, cite me evidence.

When they were new.

[Frozen_Feet]

Which was, like, millenia ago. Or more.

By the way, Boo, how's Michiko's history and division report?

[Boo]

Well, I've finished half her story (it's very rough, but up there to see) and the division report is barely finished. I'll have more time this weekend what with school and all.