BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

[Callos_DeTerran]

...I'm against it. It reaks of nepotism in the Gotei 13. I wouldn't mind so much if it was the 6th or something (with the 6th being the training division) but the 13th is so integral that I think that the most talented would rise to the top.

You wouldn't mind if it was the 5th?

[Innis Cabal]

Yeah. They're still the authority on Bakudo and Hado, and have much broader base for general Kido theory. 4th may have them beaten on one area, but I don't think you need to change it all because of that.

Because the 12th is just as good or slightly worse at it? From what I gather. That may be incorrect, Draken can confirm or deny it.

As to why change it. Clearly the majority dosn't care one way or the other, or dosn't care for it. Your the only one whose expressly said you liked the fluff.

Add on that two divisions, who seperate number more then the Kido Division not only are a match or exceed the sole function of the Kido Corp...there really is no place for them to exist as it stands, or at least it seems that way.

Yeah, and I'm really not going to back down on the 4th being the undisputed masters of Healing Kido. I wouldn't mind if the KC learned it, and even taught it in the fashion you are talking about. But that is the 4th's flagship function. If they are beat at it, it doesn't make any sense for them to exist.

Why wouldn't the Kido Corp not be able to learn healing Kido?

[Tackyhillbillu]

Why wouldn't the Kido Corp not be able to learn healing Kido?

...double negative intentional or not?

Anyways, I was that I don't mind if the Kido Corp learns or teaches Healing Kido, within the organization. But the 4th are the masters of it, and if anyone teaches it at the academy, it should probably be them.

[Prime32]

Yeah, and I'm really not going to back down on the 4th being the undisputed masters of Healing Kido. I wouldn't mind if the KC learned it, and even taught it in the fashion you are talking about. But that is the 4th's flagship function. If they are beat at it, it doesn't make any sense for them to exist.

4th division are healers and groundskeepers.

Kido corps seem like the Squishy Wizard archetype, whereas 4th division could be more Combat Medic.

[Tackyhillbillu]

4th division are healers and groundskeepers.

Flagship was the key word, there, Prime. Unless you consider the Janitorial Staff the flagship workers at your local hospital.

[Innis Cabal]

Anyways, I was that I don't mind if the Kido Corp learns or teaches Healing Kido, within the organization. But the 4th are the masters of it, and if anyone teaches it at the academy, it should probably be them.

My only real concern here Tacky is that they don't seem to really work even remotly with the Kido Corp. Which...seems odd to me. They are so good at a specialty of a specialty that they don't require the organization that over sees kido research, the archives of all kido, etc.


@The "Wizards Guild/Squishy Battle Mage"- I was trying to take the Kido Corp down a different direction. I see its not been well recived. I'll change them to be more in line with the Battle Mage Guild so I'm not stepping on anyone's toes.

[Steilos]

Going to have to agree with the healers being the undisputed master of Healing Kido. Sure, it means the Kido Corps aren't the best at all the areas, but if the medical corps isn't the best healers, why have them? It stands to reason that the medics get all the medical toys they need because it's not like anyone else can really use them like the 4th. But there might be a compromise, regardless:

What I'm getting from the Kido Corps right now is 'Kido researchers', in light of all this... let's just be polite and call it 'discussion'. What could work is if the Kido Corps is a fount of Kido knowledge. By that I mean that although the Kido know the most of every variation of that art, their primary role is to firstly invent even more of the stuff, and secondly spread it around to those that need it. Now, I propose a distinction between 'knowing' and 'using' here.

How about this:
The Kido Corp are good at using Kido, but their main speciality lies in research (this doesn't have to be scientific, btw).
On the other hand... Say, the 4th Division don't really have much in the way of research, but they are significantly better at using healing Kido than the Kido Corps.

So it would go like this:
Kido corps learns new healing Kido, tests it out, and hands it over to the 4th. This way, the Kido corps usually knows more healing methods at any given instant than the 4th, as stuff takes time to be properly tested but can be rolled out in an emergency, but the 4th is better at using the ones they have.

Ok, so the KC is no longer the best at everything Kido. But you're treading on each other's toes less. Also, nothing is stopping you form being all round best at the others.

Please note that this is a suggestion. I'm highlighting this just to show that I'm not telling anyone what to do, because that seems to be casuing problems.

EDIT: The heck did that wink at the top come from?

[Kuroimaken]

Personally, if asked on the matter, I feel that many people would simply go, "Kidou is Kidou. You say a few things, focus reiatsu a certain way, and the hollows go boom" and that would be the end of it.

I can understand where Innis is coming from - if his entire division's view of how Kidou works, where it comes from and whatnot is mostly disregarded or ignored, it could certainly come across to some as being unnecessary (considering that one of its main goals is research, not knowing the nature of Kidou and using it anyway could be considered something akin to not knowing where a Vizard's powers come from and using them nilly-willy. Yes, Vizard powers come from control of the inner Hollow and it is very, very obvious that the masks are similar to those of Hollows; however, if not for these very obvious ties, there would not necessarily be any immediate concern regarding Vizards at all).

It does come to mind that, when it comes to the nature of spiritual particles, they tend to have a whole subset of physics all their own. There COULD be some tension between the Kidou Corps. and the 12th division as to the origins of Kidou and/or the universe. They might be split over the fact that spiritual particles move in a very certain way, according to laws not unlike those of physics, and yet respond to a series of rituals and incantations that, in themselves, seem much more mystical and arcane (I'm purposely avoiding the religious considerations here, as you may have guessed). Either way, neither seems to have the upper hand over the other; the personal outlook of each Shinigami could vary EXACTLY because of that.

Though that's just my 2 yen anyway.

[Tackyhillbillu]

My only real concern here Tacky is that they don't seem to really work even remotly with the Kido Corp. Which...seems odd to me. They are so good at a specialty of a specialty that they don't require the organization that over sees kido research, the archives of all kido, etc.

It is because they aren't really all that interested in the Kido Corp. I'd say that there are some who lend their expertise to the Kido Corp (and the 12th) when asked, and do their own research into Healing Kido.

But the Healers of the 4th view themselves as Healers before anything else. Healing Kido is just a tool to them, nothing more.

As well... Healing Kido doesn't really fit into the whole general schema of things. It doesn't have the rituals and such that the other two branches of Kido have. I don't think there would be any archives of Healing Kido, because there aren't any Healing Kido 'spells' persay, like we see in the tother two areas.

[KnightDisciple]

*snip*

For the sake of your post and this thread, I'd ask you remove the specific analogy to real life. Tempers are already running high here. That's just fuel for the fire.

[Steilos]

For the sake of your post and this thread, I'd ask you remove the specific analogy to real life. Tempers are already running high here. That's just fuel for the fire.

Seriously, we are talking high-octane fuel here. Like, kerosene. Things appear to be cooling down now, let's keep it that way.

Also, if there's no real specific spells for healing, then as I said, nothing is stopping KC from researching other healing methods other than spells involving Kido. For the results of this, albeit a very rare result, see Hannibal.

[Kuroimaken]

Consider it removed... though the point remains.

[Innis Cabal]

Alright. So the Kido Corp arn't the best at healing kido. They arn't the best at blowing crap up (regardless if this is linked to Hado or no) because that gets to go to the 12th and their crazy inventions. So, that really leaves the Kido Corp being the best at Bakudo.

They can be the best little researchers they want to be. The Gotei really dosn't need them. Their gadgets and the 12th's own kido can more then make up the difference and ignore their research. The Kido Corp are -allowed- to research healing Kido, as it seems to be stated.

So, what exactly is the role here for them folks? Because even if I am asked not to change the fluff, as I've now been asked by two people, I still have to go in and change them. Because apparently they can't be what I intended them to be.

Do we even need a Kido Corp? Because its looking like the Gotei 13 has it all handled without one. Should I drop the Kido Corp and Takeshi utterly? Because at the moment they really don't serve a role.

[Steilos]

Alright. So the Kido Corp arn't the best at healing kido. They arn't the best at blowing crap up (regardless if this is linked to Hado or no) because that gets to go to the 12th and their crazy inventions. So, that really leaves the Kido Corp being the best at Bakudo...
Do we even need a Kido Corp? Because its looking like the Gotei 13 has it all handled without one. Should I drop the Kido Corp and Takeshi utterly? Because at the moment they really don't serve a role.

(quote shortened for length. I am quoting the entire post)

What I was trying to get at was centralised research. The only division with people who actually know how to research Kido are the Kido Corps. The Divisions responsible still get to mess with gadgets because it's apples and oranges. KC does the kido, Gotei does the gadgets, Gotei helps KC with said gadgets, and has their Kido research performed. This will require ALL divisions involved to tinker with roles to fit, which is why I'm not trying to do anything other than throw it out there.

[Innis Cabal]

(quote shortened for length. I am quoting the entire post)

What I was trying to get at was centralised research. The only division with people who actually know how to research Kido are the Kido Corps. The Divisions responsible still get to mess with gadgets because it's apples and oranges. KC does the kido, Gotei does the gadgets, Gotei helps KC with said gadgets, and has their Kido research performed. This will require ALL divisions involved to tinker with roles to fit, which is why I'm not trying to do anything other than throw it out there.

I don't think many people are going to be wild over that idea. Not that its not a good one, I just don't see people liking the idea that only the Kido Corp knows the secrets to making new kido.

[Frozen_Feet]

Alright. So the Kido Corp arn't the best at healing kido. They arn't the best at blowing crap up (regardless if this is linked to Hado or no) because that gets to go to the 12th and their crazy inventions. So, that really leaves the Kido Corp being the best at Bakudo.

They can be the best little researchers they want to be. The Gotei really dosn't need them. Their gadgets and the 12th's own kido can more then make up the difference and ignore their research. The Kido Corp are -allowed- to research healing Kido, as it seems to be stated.

So, what exactly is the role here for them folks? Because even if I am asked not to change the fluff, as I've now been asked by two people, I still have to go in and change them. Because apparently they can't be what I intended them to be.

Do we even need a Kido Corp? Because its looking like the Gotei 13 has it all handled without one. Should I drop the Kido Corp and Takeshi utterly? Because at the moment they really don't serve a role.

I'd say Bakudo alone is a pretty hefty chunk of importance, as that school of magic contains most of the few things capable of imprisoning and nullifying exceedingly powerful spirits. Bakudo, as a whole, contains all utility spells, such as invisibility or telepathy, which would be very hard to replicate scientifically. Combined with being second best at blowing stuff up, and second best in healing, I'd say they're pretty solid unit.

[KnightDisciple]

Consider it removed... though the point remains.

I hate to prod, but the line's still there.

[Innis Cabal]

I'd say Bakudo alone is a pretty hefty chunk of importance, as that school of magic contains most of the few things capable of imprisoning and nullifying exceedingly powerful spirits. Bakudo, as a whole, contains all utility spells, such as invisibility or telepathy, which would be very hard to replicate scientifically. Combined with being second best at blowing stuff up, and second best in healing, I'd say they're pretty solid unit.

But that means they are only second or even third best at Kido as a whole. Why bother with a whole Corp if they're not really the prime cut of Kido Users? What function do they serve in being second teir to the Gotei in every regard?

Every function they've now been cut down to can just be divvyed up and sent to the factions that are better at what the Kido Corps sole function is.

[Kuroimaken]

I hate to prod, but the line's still there.

Would you care to point it exactly? So I don't need to guess.

[KnightDisciple]

Edit: Thank you kindly, Kuroi.

[Kuroimaken]

Got it. One moment, please.

EDIT: Changed. Hopefully the point remains understandable without touching sensitivities.

[Frozen_Feet]

But that means they are only second or even third best at Kido as a whole. Why bother with a whole Corp if they're not really the prime cut of Kido Users? What function do they serve in being second teir to the Gotei in every regard?

Every function they've now been cut down to can just be divvyed up and sent to the factions that are better at what the Kido Corps sole function is.

Note: 12th might create bigger explosions, but they aren't really the authority in Hado; they're just authority in explosions. Hado, as a whole, has other things in it, powerful effects that warp time and space in manner unreplicable by science.

Same can be said of 4th: they're best in healing, but healing isn't only Kido, and Kido isn't only healing. Kido Corps still has a place as the archiver of healing spells, and perhaps researchers of the more obscure ones; after all, 4th doesn't deal with high-level Hado with same frequency, so Kdo Corps might be the source of those healing techniques that deal with, say, being turned to a toad.

And then there's Bakudo; there's no other division which really focuses on research and development of that.

Some Kido research might happen outside of Kido Corps, but that'd be more on personal than organizational level; 12th is the only other place that has resources for large-scale testing, and it's more busy with other things. Besides, all Kido researches would likely either be trained by or transferred from Kido Corps anyway. As Kido Corps is outside of Gotei 13, you can think of it as a university: it's the place that supplies Gotei with Kido practitioners. As far as I read, that's not something that's being taken away.

Overall, Kido Corps still is strongest in Kido, and still has a place not fulfilled by other divisions. I think you're overreacting slightly.

[Prime32]

What if the Kido Corps were merged with one of the squads?

[Frozen_Feet]

What if the Kido Corps were merged with one of the squads?

12th would be the most logical solution, but it would require a major overhaul of both units. Personally, I like the idea of separate Kido Corps.

I'm also feeling the problem is being overblown a bit right now - no-one doubted the viability of separate Kido Corps prior to now. Innis even had clearly established what makes them different in feel and function to rest of the Gotei - the current debacle is mainly because he's getting the impression no-one likes his version, everyone would just ignore it, and the the whole unit is overshadowed by the Gotei.

[Kuroimaken]

That'd raise the issue of which one to merge them with. Each would have their own reason NOT to.

Keep in mind that the 4th are only the most widespread practitioners of healing Kidou. They are, for all effects and purposes, the logistics division of anything not related to recruitment and replacement. It's unlikely such a specialized division has the resources or manpower to spare to do actual research and testing. Further, healing Kidou is, in and of itself, fairly simple as a specialty. To use D&D as an example, all they have is the Cure X line of spells, not Remove Disease/Curse/etc. (otherwise Byakuya's wife wouldn't have died).

The 12th's scientific approach to research is also more likely to yield results on a MUCH slower basis. The scientific method is, by necessity, a very slow process. Even when/if an individual researcher at 12th develops new Kidou, it'd be a painstakingly long process.
(This is more a suggestion than anything. After all, none of us can say for sure what Kidou research actually entails.)

[Tackyhillbillu]

ThKeep in mind that the 4th are only the most widespread practitioners of healing Kidou. They are, for all effects and purposes, the logistics division of anything not related to recruitment and replacement. It's unlikely such a specialized division has the resources or manpower to spare to do actual research and testing. Further, healing Kidou is, in and of itself, fairly simple as a specialty. To use D&D as an example, all they have is the Cure X line of spells, not Remove Disease/Curse/etc. (otherwise Byakuya's wife wouldn't have died).

Ummmm, I'm going to disagree with this statement. The 4th isn't that A. incompetent, or B. overworked. They can and will do research, though such a process would likely entail speaking with both the 12th and the 4th. Furthermore, I don't think Healing Kido is all that limited. Byakuya's wife may have had an incurable disease for some reason or another (as well as Captain Tuberculosis) but they can and will do their best. Diseases, they probably can't out right wipe out with Healing Kido, but they can treat a lot of the symptomns with them.

[Frozen_Feet]

I have a gnawing feeling not everyone is up to date of what Kido Corps is under Innis's vision. For reminder, here's the write-up for the unit.

For comparison:
4th Division
12th Division

No other division has shown great interest in research and development of Kido; they're purely in for practical application. Sure, they mention training Kido, but those trainers have to come from somwhere, don't they?

Kido Corps, as an organization outside of Gotei, is a natural supplier of practiced magicians for the Gotei. Innis's main concern was that despite this, the view Kido Corps teaches would be ignored by and large. (Now it is whether the whole unit should exist, which I think is slightly over-reacting.)

I think Kido Corps, as presented, is fine. It has its own unique feel and purpose. The question is, does it really need to change? Are its views so outlandish we really want them to be different? If they're left as is, will majority just ignore them, or deny them any importance for the story? -_-

[Prime32]

Ummmm, I'm going to disagree with this statement. The 4th isn't that A. incompetent, or B. overworked. They can and will do research, though such a process would likely entail speaking with both the 12th and the 4th. Furthermore, I don't think Healing Kido is all that limited. Byakuya's wife may have had an incurable disease for some reason or another (as well as Captain Tuberculosis) but they can and will do their best. Diseases, they probably can't out right wipe out with Healing Kido, but they can treat a lot of the symptomns with them.

I would have said that they can treat diseases through knowledge of traditional medicine (we know they have this), as well as healing zanpakuto (presumably almost everyone with such an ability gets put in 4th division). I don't think we've ever seen them cure a disease with that hand-glowy thing.

So yeah, they don't need to be the best at healing kido to be the best at healing.

[Kuroimaken]

I would have said that they can treat diseases through knowledge of traditional medicine (we know they have this), as well as healing zanpakuto (presumably almost everyone with such an ability gets put in 4th division). I don't think we've ever seen them cure a disease with that hand-glowy thing.

My point exactly.

Further, I did not mean to imply that the 4th is incompetent - but it DOES look fairly overworked. Captain Tuberculosis feels like a huge mystery to me because his specific disease isn't all that hard to treat (in fact, modern-world wise, it's all but extinguished by now). Maybe conventional medicine isn't all that advanced in Soul Society, as opposed to the mortal world.

[KnightDisciple]

My point exactly.

Further, I did not mean to imply that the 4th is incompetent - but it DOES look fairly overworked. Captain Tuberculosis feels like a huge mystery to me because his specific disease isn't all that hard to treat (in fact, modern-world wise, it's all but extinguished by now). Maybe conventional medicine isn't all that advanced in Soul Society, as opposed to the mortal world.

Or maybe we can actually let our 4th cure at least some diseases.

Again, we're diverging from canon in several points already. Why not give 4th more room to treat and cure disease?