BleachITP Reborn: Discussion & Setup Thread 7

[Kuroimaken]

I was just offering my viewpoint based on canon. I really have no idea why Kubo apparently needed the 4th to look incompetent in his work.

Either way, healing doesn't exactly lend itself to such a large variety of possibilities. It's a fairly specialized area, which could be summed up as organical repair, as it were.

[Frozen_Feet]

Either way, healing doesn't exactly lend itself to such a large variety of possibilities. It's a fairly specialized area, which could be summed up as organical repair, as it were.

You're forgetting that there's a large number of special attacks and abilities causing injuries that might need special measures to mend. Even countering all normal diseases, poisons and wounds is a chore, and then there are curses, enchantments, transformations and the like to keep up.

But yeah, like said, healing isn't the extent of Kido, and Kido isn't the extent of healing. There's room and reason for both 4th and Kido Corps.

[Tackyhillbillu]

On Captain Tuberculosis... the fact is, Captain Tuberculosis isn't human, and his disease isn't Tuberculosis. It is something that looks and acts like it, but it isn't it.

---

On the issue of Healing Kido... if they aren't the best at it... I'm probably going to ask to switch to another division as Captain, or make Ude somebody's VC.

My conception of Healing Kido is thus. It can strenghten or diminish the bodies natural response to things. Healing Kido can close a wound, because that is what would happen if the person was kept alive, and left to heal. They can diminish a fever, because that is how the body reacts. They can't destroy a disease, because Healing Kido doesn't destroy. They'd have to use drugs and such for that. But they can strengthen the patients immune system (dangerous, but doable.) They can treat diseases, by keeping their symptomns from killing the person with the disease.

[Kuroimaken]

It's a perfectly good view, I'd say.

If they end up succumbing anyway, it's their own fault for their organisms being weak.

[Frozen_Feet]

I think it's a good take as well, and I think it fits with how Kido Corps would view the manner; after all, radical body modulation is not encouraged.

Which reminds me of the "experimental healing technique" Hannibal will have the misfortune of going through. Maybe it had something to do with removing a non-ordinary toxin from his system, or regenerating a lost limb; those both seem to be outside the normal scope of 4th's kido, but 12th probably could've come up with some wacky invention. Maybe a fresh transfer from Kido Corps was responsible. XD

Remember also that it was two centuries ago. It might have been something like an organ transplant, something that later on was taken to wide use in the 4th but was new back then. Pick as many as apply.

[Innis Cabal]

@Frozen- Thank you for taking invested interest in this and working to clear things up. It is possible I am slightly over reacting.

@The Rest- I think Frozen is correct in saying that people are not quite aware of the changes and the level of detail I have attempted to put into our games Kido. I will, for everyone's sake extrapolate and post the nit and grit here for everyone to read.

The Path of Outer Kido is separated into four distinct categories, two based on the Yin principle and two based on the Yang Principle. These four arts make up the foundation of Kido as far as the Kido Corp are concerned, kido spells that do not fit into any one category as simply referred to as De. The perfect kido is referred to as Wuji or “The Ultimate” or “The Infinite” while all other Kido are known under the term Taiji, or “The Boundless”.

Bakudō (Yin): The art of binding and defensive Kido. Bakudō also covers barrier magic, separating it from canon Bleach in such spells are not classified under any particular type of kido.

Qi (Yin): The art of closing wounds and mending the world around you. Kido of this school not only bind wounds, help in the curing of diseases and curing the physical and mental state of a being healthy again, Qi can also mend walls, cause plant life to grow, and even tame beasts. Qi is widely studied outside of the Kido Corp by the 4th Division, referred to as the Healing Arts.

Hadō (Yang): The art of destructive power. Hadō is further split into the five classical Chinese elements, known as Wu Xing depending on the spell. Hadō spells also cover any Kido that transforms the body, though these kido are rare and often times banned under Kido Corp laws.

Fire (Huǒ): All energy, lightning and fire based kido are found under the Fire Wu Xing. The most destructive Kido are found in this element.

Water (Shuǐ): The Water Wu Xing is often times considered a broader school, consisting of both powerful water and iced based kido. The fluid nature of this element makes such spells difficult to predict.

Metal (Jīn): Metal Wu Xing are rigid, often times physically summoned attacks

Earth (Tǔ): The stable element, Earth Wu Xing is the middle ground of Hado. Such Kido stress slow yet diligent attacks, as well as attacks that are difficult to deflect due to their weight. Like Metal Wu Xing, Earth Wu Xing are often physically summoned, unlike the other three sub-sections.

Wood (Mù): Like its element, Wood Wu Xing are known for their flexible yet strong nature. Kido of this school often leech life from their foes, as well as growing of their own volition, creating powerful and often times rampant effects.

Wu Wei (Yang): The art of action, these kido spells are categorized for their use in and out of combat to expedite or tactically aid a Shinigami. This includes teleportation, communication, or long distance viewing.

De (Balanced): Kido of this class do not fit into any specified grouping. The number of De Kido is fairly small, as the Kido Corp attempts at every chance to re-organize them into a known Taiji.

[Draken]

For everyone saying the kido corps are wizards... Wu Jen and Shugenja are actually 150% better fits. Even the arcane spellcasting Wu Jen is quite spiritualized.

On the 12th division and Kido... They might have equivalent theory to the Corps, if only because that kind of information would most likely be stored in a single library avaiable by the entirety of the seireitei. But their theory would split off and deviate completely from the Kido Corps past a very early point.

At this stage, it is a matter of Shugenjas and Wu Jens (KC) vs Wizards and Archivists (12th). And off to the side, where no one cares, we have the 4th division Healers, made all the lamer because unicorns (save for one I guess) don't exist in Bleach so that particular class feature is toast.

Kido theory is, however, by no means a central focus of 12th. Only of the small base of researchers centered on that subject (and do recall that my version of 12th has a really tiny roster of actual, paid, members).

So yeah. The 12th does not have the sheer volume of research into Kido as the KC, Kido is just another science in the long list of sciences that they research.

[Innis Cabal]

For everyone saying the kido corps are wizards... Wu Jen and Shugenja are actually 150% better fits. Even the arcane spellcasting Wu Jen is quite spiritualized.

On the 12th division and Kido... They might have equivalent theory to the Corps, if only because that kind of information would most likely be stored in a single library avaiable by the entirety of the seireitei. But their theory would split off and deviate completely from the Kido Corps past a very early point.

At this stage, it is a matter of Shugenjas and Wu Jens (KC) vs Wizards and Archivists (12th). And off to the side, where no one cares, we have the 4th division Healers, made all the lamer because unicorns (save for one I guess) don't exist in Bleach so that particular class feature is toast.

Kido theory is, however, by no means a central focus of 12th. Only of the small base of researchers centered on that subject (and do recall that my version of 12th has a really tiny roster of actual, paid, members).

So yeah. The 12th does not have the sheer volume of research into Kido as the KC, Kido is just another science in the long list of sciences that they research.

Alright, that does clear it up. Thank you draken.

And I hope Taky, the above clarifies where I'm comming from. Healing Kido under how I have it written is a subsection of Qi. I won't dispute that the 4th (and I never disputed this fact ever) is better at healing then the Kido Corps. But them being the penultimate masters of Qi seems odd to me, considering they are so focused on saving lives. Where as that is not really the over all focus of actual "Healing Kido" to use canon Bleach terms. Healing Kido is a wide school that heals more then just bodies of Shinigami or mortals. Its the focus of using Kido to mend and heal the world, and all thats in it.

The other issue I had, was the idea that the Gotei don't go to the Kido for help. Its been clarified that the 12th does in fact do this, considering its not even close to a major focus for them. But its still unclear as to wheter the 4th Division really bothers with the Kido Corp. As written, I read it as they sometimes go to lend a hand to them, but its not often and they don't really reap any good or ill from it.

[Frozen_Feet]

<a collection of D&D in-jokes>

Thank you, Draken, for cheering me up and giving me a good laugh. m(_._)m

[Tackyhillbillu]

Alright, that does clear it up. Thank you draken.

And I hope Taky, the above clarifies where I'm comming from. Healing Kido under how I have it written is a subsection of Qi. I won't dispute that the 4th (and I never disputed this fact ever) is better at healing then the Kido Corps. But them being the penultimate masters of Qi seems odd to me, considering they are so focused on saving lives. Where as that is not really the over all focus of actual "Healing Kido" to use canon Bleach terms. Healing Kido is a wide school that heals more then just bodies of Shinigami or mortals. Its the focus of using Kido to mend and heal the world, and all thats in it.

The other issue I had, was the idea that the Gotei don't go to the Kido for help. Its been clarified that the 12th does in fact do this, considering its not even close to a major focus for them. But its still unclear as to wheter the 4th Division really bothers with the Kido Corp. As written, I read it as they sometimes go to lend a hand to them, but its not often and they don't really reap any good or ill from it.

I am... not a huge fan of your conception of Healing Kido, Innis. There are a number of reasons for that. It causes the 4th to step all over other peoples toes, or means that they aren't the best at the only discipline that they really study.

Innis, here is the deal. You don't want the Kido Corp to be eclipsed by the other divisions. I want the same for the 4th. I don't want the 4th to just be the operational arm of the Kido Corp. Your conception makes them seem like that. A true master of Qi from the Kido Corp could do everything someone from the 4th could do, plus way more. That really bothers me.

---

On the other issue, perhaps I wasn't clear:

I meant to say that the 4th does do it's own research into healing (including Healing Kido (not really going to budge on that.)) In the process, that would most likely entail speaking to the 12th and KC, depending on the appropriateness of their expertise. In turn, the 4th would be available for consults on developments in Healing to the 12th and the KC as well. Your Kido Corp would prove more of a challenge working with, due to the fact that the mysticism of the division, but their knowledge, and the texts they have hoarded would make it worthwhile.

[horngeek]

Go to the TRD Rokugan books.


So, where do Void spells fit in all this, then?

[Innis Cabal]

Go to the TRD Rokugan books.


So, where do Void spells fit in all this, then?

Considering its a Japanese element, and not Chinese, no where If it had to be quantified, it would be the Perfect Kido. It isn't, but if there were to be a Void, it would be that.

I am... not a huge fan of your conception of Healing Kido, Innis. There are a number of reasons for that. It causes the 4th to step all over other peoples toes, or means that they aren't the best at the only discipline that they really study.

Innis, here is the deal. You don't want the Kido Corp to be eclipsed by the other divisions. I want the same for the 4th. I don't want the 4th to just be the operational arm of the Kido Corp. Your conception makes them seem like that. A true master of Qi from the Kido Corp could do everything someone from the 4th could do, plus way more. That really bothers me.

I'm honestly not crazy about re-working the Qi aspect of Kido to be frank with you Taky. I don't see how the set up of Qi causes the 4th to step on anyone's toes. In fact, it seperates the two from one another as far as I can see.

The Fourth is still the best at the Healing Arts. The Kido Corp really dosn't need to focus on that, and its one of the major things that the 4th does. On the "Operational Arm of the Kido Corp". I'm not sure how or where your getting that...they don't tell the 4th how to use the healing kido. They just research it. Thats what the Kido Corp does. They research Kido to share with Soul Society. They can't control how the 4th uses it. They have no power what so ever with the 4th. The 4th can keep researching the Healing Arts all they want. No where has it been said that the Kido Corp is against that either.

But Healing Arts is akin to the Wu Xiang. Its a section of a broader school and study known as Qi. Does that make the Kido Corp step on the toes of the 4th? No. The Kido Corp focus on other parts of the Qi school, its relation to the other schools and the wider effects on the world around them. They arn't concerned with healing people. There's the 4th for that. Does the 4th step on the toes of the Kido Corp? No. Because all they care about is healing the sick and injuired and finding better ways to do it. Their still the best at the Healing Arts. They just arn't the best at Qi. You can be the best dang heart surgon in the world, but chances are your orthodontistry is going to suffer. You can be the best chef in the world but its totally possible you just can't bake. Its possible to be the best at something, and still not be the best at what its apart of.

How does having two functions of a single school cause the 4th to step on anyone's toes? They arn't just healers. They literaly dwarf the Kido Corp by 4 times as many people. They're over all duties as a Division also completly overshadow the Kido Corp, which just has one singular duty to all of Soul Society.

I meant to say that the 4th does do it's own research into healing (including Healing Kido (not really going to budge on that.)) In the process, that would most likely entail speaking to the 12th and KC, depending on the appropriateness of their expertise. In turn, the 4th would be available for consults on developments in Healing to the 12th and the KC as well. Your Kido Corp would prove more of a challenge working with, due to the fact that the mysticism of the division, but their knowledge, and the texts they have hoarded would make it worthwhile.

I haven't told you to budge on them researching their own stuff. And I'm not going to try to make you. But I'm not going to budge on the write up for the Qi. Its a happy medium thats existed since day 1 of the Kido Corp.

[Kuroimaken]

If Qi in this case is such a broad cathegory of Kidou, what's the harm in letting the 4th being the undisputed masters/researchers of the organic healing side while the Kidou Corps. handles the parts that mend everything else? Feels to me as though that would satisfy both sides.

In fact, I feel like the two divisions should be closer than they are (as written right now), but remaining with separate duties.

[Innis Cabal]

If Qi in this case is such a broad cathegory of Kidou, what's the harm in letting the 4th being the undisputed masters/researchers of the organic healing side while the Kidou Corps. handles the parts that mend everything else? Feels to me as though that would satisfy both sides.

In fact, I feel like the two divisions should be closer than they are (as written right now), but remaining with separate duties.

Nothing. I've said that at least 3 times in the above post.

[Kuroimaken]

I was typing out my post while you were posting, so I didn't see it until afterwards.

[Innis Cabal]

No worries. But it is exactly what I'm saying. There has never been an issue with the 4th being the best at the Healing Arts. It was, and still is, assumed in the very write up of the Kido Corp.

[Tackyhillbillu]

I'm honestly not crazy about re-working the Qi aspect of Kido to be frank with you Taky. I don't see how the set up of Qi causes the 4th to step on anyone's toes. In fact, it seperates the two from one another as far as I can see.

The Fourth is still the best at the Healing Arts. The Kido Corp really dosn't need to focus on that, and its one of the major things that the 4th does. On the "Operational Arm of the Kido Corp". I'm not sure how or where your getting that...they don't tell the 4th how to use the healing kido. They just research it. Thats what the Kido Corp does. They research Kido to share with Soul Society. They can't control how the 4th uses it. They have no power what so ever with the 4th. The 4th can keep researching the Healing Arts all they want. No where has it been said that the Kido Corp is against that either.

But Healing Arts is akin to the Wu Xiang. Its a section of a broader school and study known as Qi. Does that make the Kido Corp step on the toes of the 4th? No. The Kido Corp focus on other parts of the Qi school, its relation to the other schools and the wider effects on the world around them. They arn't concerned with healing people. There's the 4th for that. Does the 4the 4th step on the toes of the Kido Corp? No. Because all they care about is healing the sick and injuired and finding better ways to do it. Their still the best at the Healing Arts. They just arn't the best at Qi. You can be the best dang heart surgon in the world, but chances are your orthodontistry is going to suffer. You can be the best chef in the world but its totally possible you just can't bake. Its possible to be the best at something, and still not be the best at what its apart of.

How does having two functions of a single school cause the 4th to step on anyone's toes? They arn't just healers. They literaly dwarf the Kido Corp by 4 times as many people. They're over all duties as a Division also completly overshadow the Kido Corp, which just has one singular duty to all of Soul Society.

I haven't told you to budge on them researching their own stuff. And I'm not going to try to make you. But I'm not going to budge on the write up for the Qi. Its a happy medium thats existed since day 1 of the Kido Corp.

Well, on the multiple functions of Qi, because alot of those functions you assign to Qi are things that the other divisions took up. Repairing Walls, caring for animals, growing plants? Those are the responsibilities of other divisions.

And my other worry is, if the Healing Arts is truly just a part of some greater school, can the 4th really get to be the best at Healing people without being the best at all the other functions. A Heart Surgeon may not be a very good orthodontist, but he does know quite a bit about the brain, kidneys, and all the other functions of the body, in order to do a good job at his field. Beyond that, Doctors learn some chemistry, psychology, and biology just as a part of their job. If I just train at being a Cardiac Surgeon, I will not be very good at my job.

So can someone advance to the pinnical of the Healing Arts, without mastering the rest of Qi? If so, it damages your conception, because it makes the schools seem like artifical constructs, rather then useful descriptors. And if your KC is really trying to create the 'perfect Kido' why would the ignore Healing Kido. I would think the creation of it would require mastery of pretty much everything.

[Innis Cabal]

Well, on the multiple functions of Qi, because alot of those functions you assign to Qi are things that the other divisions took up. Repairing Walls, caring for animals, growing plants? Those are the responsibilities of other divisions.

And my other worry is, if the Healing Arts is truly just a part of some greater school, can the 4th really get to be the best at Healing people without being the best at all the other functions. A Heart Surgeon may not be a very good orthodontist, but he does know quite a bit about the brain, kidneys, and all the other functions of the body, in order to do a good job at his field. Beyond that, Doctors learn some chemistry, psychology, and biology just as a part of their job. If I just train at being a Cardiac Surgeon, I will not be very good at my job.

So can someone advance to the pinnical of the Healing Arts, without mastering the rest of Qi? If so, it damages your conception, because it makes the schools seem like artifical constructs, rather then useful descriptors. And if your KC is really trying to create the 'perfect Kido' why would the ignore Healing Kido. I would think the creation of it would require mastery of pretty much everything.

Yes, it does fall to other Divisions. One can only assume that such spells are used by said Divisions. They may very well be highly advanced or even better then the Kido Corp in said special fields. There isn't a dispute on that. And there never was. The Kido Corp dosn't use their spells soley to aid themselves, they use them to help Soul Society. So the 7th Divison would get the neat Kido that can help repair structures and things of that nature. The 11th would get the more specialized Kido that help grow dying plants. Divisions that use Hado would get the better Hado. The 10th would get the better Bakudo. The tactical divisions would get the better Wu Wei. Seeing a trend? The Kido Corp arn't the best at any single one Kido. Their the best at Kido over all, because thats what they work with. They arn't specialized like the Gotei. They are just one single Division.

And there's nothing saying that the 4th can't be good or great at the rest of the Qi. Thats not what your arguing against Taky. Your saying they're the best at healing the physical body (And probably the mental state of a person as well, not sure). Again, there was never an issue with this. Ever. I'm getting tired of saying this. But the rest of it, like your example, they don't focus on the rest of what makes up the Qi. They are only concerned with healing the body.

As for it being "artifical". They all tie together. They are all concerned with healing, fixing, mending and bringing things back to a state of fullness. Mind, Body, Soul and World. If you'd like I can further divide the school of Qi into those four sections, with the 4th being the masters of the Body section of Qi, known as the Healing Arts. Which they've always been the masters of.

The last point. I also didn't say they ignored the Healing Arts. I said they don't need to focus on it. Its not what their about. Their about the relation of the whole Qi in relation to the other four pieces of the grand puzzle as laid out by them. They don't focus on any particular section to the extreme. Thats an unbalanced system, and as seen, they are about the balance of Kido.

[Kuroimaken]

It comes to mind that the Kidou Corps. probably have no idea what the 'Perfect Kidou' is even supposed to do, much less what it should be composed of, otherwise they'd have it already.

A Heart Surgeon may not be a very good orthodontist, but he does know quite a bit about the brain, kidneys, and all the other functions of the body, in order to do a good job at his field. Beyond that, Doctors learn some chemistry, psychology, and biology just as a part of their job. If I just train at being a Cardiac Surgeon, I will not be very good at my job.

While he does know plenty about the other organs, a surgeon is primarily prized due to his hands. He has to understand what needs to be done and how - however, why it got to that point and which procedure is necessary tends to be decided by other doctors. Surgeons are, by and large, not specialized in diagnostics outside their fields. Sure he knows a mass in the right ventricle is a bad thing, or that over-inflated lungs could end up compressing the heart, but he's still only an expert as far as the heart is concerned, and thus unlikely to operate on other organs, however close they may be to the heart.

[horngeek]

The 11th would get the more specialized Kido that help grow dying plants.

What.

[Innis Cabal]

What.

I thought they were farmers? Which Division is that?

[KnightDisciple]

Boo's writeup has the 11th tending a variety of herbs important for healing and such.

[horngeek]

11th. Fighters.

Not farmers.

@^: Okay, what? Isn't that 4th's job, if anyone's?

[Kuroimaken]

The 11th is... Kenpachi's division. AKA the hotheads.

EDIT: *picturing Kazuma as a farmer*

"WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO?!"

"I trimmed these plants, like I was asked."

"AT THE ROOT?!"

"You mean there are other ways to trim?"

[Innis Cabal]

Boo's writeup has the 11th tending a variety of herbs important for healing and such.

This is what I was referencing. They would still get said Qi spells that focus on helping plants.

[KnightDisciple]

11th. Fighters.

Not farmers.

@^: Okay, what? Isn't that 4th's job, if anyone's?

I'm just saying what Boo's written up.

[horngeek]

This is what I was referencing. They would still get said Qi spells that focus on helping plants.

...I... honestly can't see how this fits with 11th .

If it's a hobby of the Captain, fine.

But overall, they're meant to be the 'shock troops' type division. At least, I thought that was the intention for them. I must be wrong.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Yes, it does fall to other Divisions. One can only assume that such spells are used by said Divisions. They may very well be highly advanced or even better then the Kido Corp in said special fields. There isn't a dispute on that. And there never was. The Kido Corp dosn't use their spells soley to aid themselves, they use them to help Soul Society. So the 7th Divison would get the neat Kido that can help repair structures and things of that nature. The 11th would get the more specialized Kido that help grow dying plants. Divisions that use Hado would get the better Hado. The 10th would get the better Bakudo. The tactical divisions would get the better Wu Wei. Seeing a trend? The Kido Corp arn't the best at any single one Kido. Their the best at Kido over all, because thats what they work with. They arn't specialized like the Gotei. They are just one single Division.

And there's nothing saying that the 4th can't be good or great at the rest of the Qi. Thats not what your arguing against Taky. Your saying they're the best at healing the physical body. Again, there was never an issue with this. Ever. I'm getting tired of saying this. But the rest of it, like your example, they don't focus on the rest of what makes up the Qi. They are only concerned with healing the body.

As for it being "artifical". They all tie together. They are all concerned with healing, fixing, mending and bringing things back to a state of fullness. Mind, Body, Soul and World. If you'd like I can further divide the school of Qi into those four sections, with the 4th being the masters of the Body section of Qi, known as the Healing Arts. Which they've always been the masters of.

The last point. I also didn't say they ignored the Healing Arts. I said they don't need to focus on it. Its not what their about. Their about the relation of the whole Qi in relation to the other four pieces of the grand puzzle as laid out by them. They don't focus on any particular section to the extreme. Thats an unbalanced system, and as seen, they are about the balance of Kido.

First of all, apologies. KC = Kido Corp. Really need to come up with a better adjective for that, cause of the whole Kido Commander sharing it.

Alright. Then I am fine with it.

Again, this discussion started when you told KD that the Kido Corp's conception of Kido is the dominant one. The only reason I was concerned was because it didn't agree with my concept of the 4th. I don't really care what you do with the categorizations. That's your deal, and you can do what you wish with it.

The 4th is free to teach its members Healing Kido as it wishes, and to develop it as it feels necessary. In the process, consulting with the Kido Corp and the 12th would be a matter of course.

[Draken]

Working the earth does sound like some nasty and productive training.

No horses or bulls for you. PULL THAT PLOUGH VERMIN!

One full field later.

THAT WAS EASY. NOW WITH YOUR TEETH!

[Kuroimaken]

"TEETH?! Too easy! In my time, we did it only with our bare chests! And we sweated a lot too! And it was a million degrees below zero and..."