MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[LuPuWei]

Wouldn't it be a letdown if it just turned out to be some epic D&D monster?

Or something like the Time Magazine Person of the Year with a reflective cover?

[Bongos]

The problem with the Pokemon's is that they all seem to be so cute! I haven't seen a vomit inducing hideous yet strangely beautiful Pokemon yet, but I haven't seen them all.....so maybe?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The problem with the Pokemon's is that they all seem to be so cute! I haven't seen a vomit inducing hideous yet strangely beautiful Pokemon yet, but I haven't seen them all.....so maybe?

No, the real problem with Pokemon is the fact that they are the intellectual property of Nintendo, and most (if not all) are also trademarked.

As for the vomiting part, given the reactions many participants have to the very idea of MitD being a pokemon, I wouldn't discard the possibility of violent projectile vomiting in case of a hypothetical pokemon!MitD

Grey Wolf

[LuPuWei]

Seconded. Its quite subjective.

[Bongos]

No, the real problem with Pokemon is the fact that they are the intellectual property of Nintendo, and most (if not all) are also trademarked.

As for the vomiting part, given the reactions many participants have to the very idea of MitD being a pokemon, I wouldn't discard the possibility of violent projectile vomiting in case of a hypothetical pokemon!MitD

Grey Wolf

No, the real problem with the Pokemon's is that they are all way too cute to be the MitD. Trademarks can be circumvented in several ways. Cuteness? Never!

But you are also right. If the MitD turned out to be a Pokemon, I'd probably puke.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Trademarks can be circumvented in several ways.

Read Section 1b - Legal Issues. But in any case, no, you are very wrong. In the US, where Rich is based, there are not "several ways". There is only fair use*, and then only in two aspects:

Fair use may be asserted on two grounds, either that the alleged infringer is using the mark to describe accurately an aspect of its products, or that the alleged infringer is using the mark to identify the mark owner.

(source)

Since Rich is neither using MitD to do a commentary on Pokemon (nor anything else), nor is he trying to refer to Nintendo (or anything else), he has no basis for trademark infringement. He is selling books in which MitD is a main character for profit, and I doubt he can afford a legal battle with Nintendo. Under the standard argument "Rich is not an idiot", any trademarked character is right out.

Grey Wolf

*To be absurdly precise, there is also abandonment and geographical limitations. Neither apply in this or pretty much any other case.

[Bongos]

Read Section 1b - Legal Issues. But in any case, no, you are very wrong. In the US, where Rich is based, there are not "several ways". There is only fair use*, and then only in two aspects:

I am not wrong.

There is also getting permission, and there is also paying for use, and then there is fair use. So that is 3 possible ways.

But can we not digress into another copyright discussion? I don't think it's a Pokemon, okay?

[The MunchKING]

Read Section 1b - Legal Issues. But in any case, no, you are very wrong. In the US, where Rich is based, there are not "several ways". There is only fair use*, and then only in two aspects:

Or there's the "it's close enough everybody gets the reference but not REALLY your trademark, honest!!" thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or there's the "it's close enough everybody gets the reference but not REALLY your trademark, honest!!" thing.

aka "you get your pants sued off anyway" method, which most people think can work but doesn't.

But I agree with Bongos in that we've had this discussion before (although I discard off hand the possibility that Nintendo would allow or sell the rights to any Pokemon to an Internet comic author) and that we might as well move on.

Grey Wolf

[Flappi]

Nobody thinks about the roaches ? o_O

Fact 1: MitS attracts them (strip #95, panel 3)
Fact 2: roaches disappear when killed (strip #654, panel 5)

My guess: they are summoned by MitS. It explains why they disappear (and I only see a summoned creatures that disappear when killed); and how the MitS "attract" them. It can be a passive ability (something like "the creature is always accompanied by two summoned creature; any killed summon is re-summoned within one day"), or something he does without being really aware of it (like an escape spell... eg it could be the summon ability of devils and demons - with his childish behavior, he would prefers funny friends over powerful companions x) ). Anyway, he must have a summoning ability.

It's still possible to identify one being used, since you can ready an action to disrupt a spell-like ability and can counterspell one with Dispel Magic. I guess this would be the relevant article.

Spellcraft has this catch-all:
DC 30 or higher -- Understand a strange or unique magical effect, such as the effects of a magic stream. Time required varies. No retry.

there's gotta be some DC for a spellcraft check to see two people disappear and identify the magic used. I mean, maybe Xykon's check is still too low, but I think with arbitrarily high Spellcraft you would be able to figure it out.

As a related note: does anyone know where the soul splice come from ?

I think it's an homebrew spell from Rich, but I'm not sure. To me, it looks like an über-epic unique effect (since it allows the target to cast many epic spells, like epic teleport or familicide). But anyhow, RC identify it from the effect, and Xylon from the name. If it's an über-epic effect, it means that RC and Xylon should have enough Spellcraft to identify any magical effect. And therefore, either the effect isn't magical (it could be psionic), or it's something which doesn't require the caster to be nearby (like wish). Because if Xylon identify the effect and knows the caster must be nearby, then he knows who casted it... And he also knows that MitS can act with great efficiency if nobody ask him to do (or ask him the contrary) (cf: his commentary after Miko's escape). Anyway, teleport, plane shift, etc are not an option (not because of "range: touch", but because of "I identified a teleport; caster must be here, and if the elf were able to cast it, he would have casted it before; and only me and the MitS are here").

If soul splice is a well-known spell, but the effect we see is über-epic only because it were casted by three epic casters, all my theory is false.

[Shale]

The roaches appeared well before MitD. In, Start of Darkness,

Spoiler

Show

They first showed up at the diner where Xykon, Right-Eye and Redcloak discuss The Plan, and it's explained that they were drawn to the food ingredients the restaurant imported from Evil planes, and then started hanging around with Team Evil.

[Nimrod's Son]

Xylon [...] Xylon [...] Xylon

The man-made fibre of THE FUTURE!

[DaggerPen]

The man-made fibre of THE FUTURE!

*snorks*

At any rate- I am somewhat confused as to what you mean with the soulsplice question, Flappi. Could you rephrase it somewhat, please? I don't get the relevance.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I think the gist of Flappi's idea was that, since Redcloak and Xykon can apparently identify the unique and/or epic Soul Splice effect, they should also be able to identify the unique and/or epic Escape effect if it is something similar.

Of course, Redcloak wasn't actually around when the Escape happened, and I don't think Xykon actually knew what a Soul Splice was save for name and the fact that Reddy thought it was worth shouting about... so the point is kind of a wash, at least from that angle.

I have always wondered how Redcloak knew what a Soul Splice was, though. I doubt it was spellcraft.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have always wondered how Redcloak knew what a Soul Splice was, though. I doubt it was spellcraft.

Carrying around an epic magic object of the caliber of the red cloak is a good way to answer that kind of question, for my money.

But if you'd rather not ascribe even more powers to the cloak, I can fall back on my usual second line of defence: RC is a geek. He knows chemistry, and carries manuals around. I suspect his knowledge is well and far beyond that of his class.

Grey Wolf

[Flappi]

@daggerpen: sorry, English is not my native language, but I try to improve myself... :/

The short version:
1/ the fight between V and Xylon proves that Xylon has a high spellcraft skill; high enough to identify an epic effects.
2/ as a consequence, if escape is a magical effect, he should have identified it from its effect. Especially if it's a regular spell.
3/ and if he identified a close-range spell, he should suspect anyone who were nearby.

Therefore, either the escape isn't magical (and he couldn't identify it), either it's an effect with long range (like wish; the caster can "transport travelers" even if they are in another plane...).

I think the gist of Flappi's idea was that, since Redcloak and Xykon can apparently identify the unique and/or epic Soul Splice effect, they should also be able to identify the unique and/or epic Escape effect if it is something similar.

Of course, Redcloak wasn't actually around when the Escape happened, and I don't think Xykon actually knew what a Soul Splice was save for name and the fact that Reddy thought it was worth shouting about... so the point is kind of a wash, at least from that angle.

I have always wondered how Redcloak knew what a Soul Splice was, though. I doubt it was spellcraft.

strip #652
Xylon, the elf is using two soul splices !
Oh, I get it now, you only have a king or a queen showing, but you've got a pair of jack in the hole, am I right? [...] So what's this tell me is: you're channeling the "raw unlimited energy" of two chumps who didn't have the balls to stay in the game!

For me, Xylon identify the soul splice only from its name: RC says nothing more, but Xylon is specific enough when he describe the effect to assume that he understands what it is. And this also require a Spellcraft check.

If he can do that, he should be able to identify the "escape" at least from the effect; especially if it's a regular spell, like teleport or wish. And the funny thing in D&D is that, even if an effect looks exactly like another (eg, dim-door and teleport), spellcraft allows you to know the one you saw. This exclude any magical & close-range effect.

[LuPuWei]

...RC is a geek. He knows chemistry, and carries manuals around. I suspect his knowledge is well and far beyond that of his class.

Grey Wolf

Also, given that he's travelling around with a psychotic, over-powerful lych and is on the sort of quest that would attract high-level assassins, it makes a lot of sense to keep up on what might come to kill you next...

[Lord Bingo]

The short version:
1/ the fight between V and Xylon proves that Xylon has a high spellcraft skill; high enough to identify an epic effects.
2/ as a consequence, if escape is a magical effect, he should have identified it from its effect. Especially if it's a regular spell.
3/ and if he identified a close-range spell, he should suspect anyone who were nearby.

Teleport and its derivates/likes are always either spells or supernatural effects and hence subject to identification with the spellcraft skill. Thus since the Escape is a magical effect and XYKON did not identify it it would by your reckoning mean that he has a rather poor spellcraft skill. However, in order to use the spellcraft skill the character has to be paying attention. Xykon was a bit preoccupied at that specific moment in time...

As for Xykon's apparent knowledge of the implications of soul splicing I would put it down to 1) him being a Necromancer, and 2) story driven character knowledge. Xykon's speciality is manipulating the forces of life and death and while I am quite sure that soul splices are a unique service performed by the IFCC I would surely expect Xykon to be aware of the possibility.

[Darakonis]

Sort of off-topic, but I'd just like to mention that this thread is pretty much the only one I read, and is the reason I even come by the forums at all.

Thanks Grey & contributors.

Peace,
-Darakonis

[DaggerPen]

Sort of off-topic, but I'd just like to mention that this thread is pretty much the only one I read, and is the reason I even come by the forums at all.

Thanks Grey & contributors.

Peace,
-Darakonis

Seconding that sentiment. Except for the occasional new comic discussion thread, I only really follow this one. Much obliged for your effort, Grey Wolf.

To get back on topic: I'm not sure soul splices are specifically something the IFCC can do, more like only the IFCC could give V all 3 unique souls at once. My bet is, soul splices can be and have been done on other occasions (though not quite like V has), and Xykon's come across it in various necromantic shenanigans. I mean, I'm not sure it's that much of a leap from binding someone's soul to doing some type of soul splice thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

o get back on topic: I'm not sure soul splices are specifically something the IFCC can do, more like only the IFCC could give V all 3 unique souls at once. My bet is, soul splices can be and have been done on other occasions (though not quite like V has), and Xykon's come across it in various necromantic shenanigans. I mean, I'm not sure it's that much of a leap from binding someone's soul to doing some type of soul splice thing.

That seems like a very reasonable possibility. I would imagine that the kind of spell we are talking about: binding a soul to you, adding his or her powers to you, wouldn't be that hard (i.e. mid-levels). The tricky part is not the actual magic, it's the consequences of it. For one thing, the soul must be willing. For another, you need a powerful soul, or its a waste of time. The IFCC took care of those two problems, by hand-picking their most powerful souls, and (I'm fairly certain) compelling them to play nice or else.

Xykon knowing about spells that increase his powers isn't indicative of spellcraft, it's only indicative of him having done the legwork to increase his full powers. And since this is Xykon we're talking about, that doesn't sound so hard.

Furthermore, doesn't spellcraft actually require to see the spell cast? RC identified the souldbind by true-seeing the bonded souls, and Xykon didn't see anything at all, instead got the name fed to him by RC. Nothing in that scene screams "spellcraft" to me. Instead, it suggests prior knowledge. In D&D, you don't need a check every time someone mentions something. It'd be ridiculous:

"The orcs are taking up positions in the forest, behind the line of trees"
Knowledge (nature): orcs (15)
Knowledge (nature): forest (18)
Knowledge (nature): trees (4)
"Uh... what's a tree?"

Grey Wolf

[Garwain]

Nothing in that scene screams "spellcraft" to me. Instead, it suggests prior knowledge.

It's not because he doesn't care that he doesn't know. Or something alike.

[Ancalagon]

To get back on topic: I'm not sure soul splices are specifically something the IFCC can do, more like only the IFCC could give V all 3 unique souls at once. My bet is, soul splices can be and have been done on other occasions (though not quite like V has), and Xykon's come across it in various necromantic shenanigans. I mean, I'm not sure it's that much of a leap from binding someone's soul to doing some type of soul splice thing.

I think it shows how cluefull and dangerous Xykon and Redcloak are.

Vaarsuvius is a very learned and high level wizard yet has never heard about this strange ritual - but for Xykon and Redcloak it's something they are of course aware of without having to think a lot.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it shows how cluefull and dangerous Xykon and Redcloak are.

Vaarsuvius is a very learned and high level wizard yet has never heard about this strange ritual - but for Xykon and Redcloak it's something they are of course aware of without having to think a lot.

Ummm... V isn't that learnt or that high a level. Xykon has some 8 levels on hir, and RC must be around the same level as the OotS, not even counting on the (other) cloak extras. Furthermore, the spell is almost certainly necromantic, which I'm sure V is really not that knowledgeable in. For my money, V is also rather self-centered to hir school - if it doesn't involve blowing stuff to pieces with fire, lightning, forced tentacles, etc, hir's likely to not be that well informed.

Grey Wolf

[Klev]

Hi guys, I am always lurking here but I noticed something today and just want to add a new idea (sorry if it is old).

It is not likely that MITD was a "Swallow Whole" ability ? I mean there are several points to him devouring people, almost like this is something to expect from a monster like him. The moments I remember are: 117, 477, 663 and I read someone claming that Xycon told MITD to eat Redcloak and spit his phylactery on SOD (unfortunately I dont have SOD, so maybe someone can explain this event better here).

Is just when MITD claims he is going to "devour" (and not only eat) it looks to me that it implys a "Swallow Whole" like ability. What do you guys think about ?

[TheMac04]

Anybody else notice that many of the reactions to the MitD saying that is beautiful are coming from goblins? Hmm....

[Gift Jeraff]

Anybody else notice that many of the reactions to the MitD saying that is beautiful are coming from goblins? Hmm....

Nope. A human (male, I believefemale) remarks that it is beautiful. The two goblin children are cheering him on because he is their friend.

[TheMac04]

Nope. A human (male, I believe) remarks that it is beautiful. The two goblin children are cheering him on because he is their friend.

You know what I oughta do? Actually READ SoD instead of just reading the topic. D'oh!

[RE:Insanity]

He could also be an awakened animal! Did anyone think of that?

[Savannah]

Can an awakened animal 1) be both beautiful and ugly enough to cause people to vomit, as well as being unrecognized by a "wizardy"-type fellow 2) throw a armored paladin and horse through a tower wall when trying to hit lightly and 3) teleport people? Those three (circus scene, tower scene, and escape) are the current criteria for frontrunners, so you'd need to be able to explain all three in order to make a good case.

In answer to your question, I can't remember anyone proposing an awakened animal.