MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Silver2195]

Well, the Snark theory is strange -- but nothing else seems to fit, so why not?

The Protean fits just fine.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But not some minor D&D critter: because we're all supposed to recognise him.

Unsupported assertion. There is no reason to believe MitD will be recognisable.

But where we've made the mistake though is in assuming that the MiTD has to be totally in the public domain - some creations are still under copyright in one field but not in another.

We have made no such assumption. Everything in the list of copyright issues is very much copyrighted in the single/double medium it belongs to, and nothing else has been implied. Nevertheless, your logic is wrong. Even if you change fields, copyright remains copyright. You cannot sell comics with final fantasy characters without getting in trouble, even if the FF is only videogames and film (probably not, but the point still stands).

The specific point, however, I will concede. King Kong is in the public domain, and you can use it in whatever medium you want except film. But this has not happened before in this thread, so I am somewhat mystified by your assertion that we were "mistaken".

In case you haven't guessed yet, the MiTD is of the species Megaprimatus kong: and is descended from King Kong - possibly MiTD is Kong's son Kiko, or even Kiko's son.

King Kong & company, as far as I know, are merely giant gorillas. Since MitD fits under the umbrella, he would be a very small giant gorilla. Or otherwise known as "a gorilla". Since a normal gorilla cannot punch people through walls, the whole idea seems pretty much unworkable. We also need to face the fact that a gorilla doesn't cause people seeing it to vomit, and I'd very much discount one-off remakes giving him magical powers (although, never having seen that remake, I'll withhold comment until we can get some independent confirmation of how canonical said remake is).

However, I have to wonder if going about it through mainly game mechanics is the right way.

We do not examine "mainly game mechanics". We examine the clues/evidence that Rich gives us. Belittling our efforts pretending that we only care about one subsection of the clues is not a good way to start. To put an example: out of the three key scenes, only the escape scene is really looking for game mechanics (and then, we do honestly consider other possibilities). The tower scene and circus scene don't expect them at all, and the Earthquake would be nice if it fit game mechanics but if it doesn't, it's not a biggie.

Rich must certainly be aware that this forum is awash with D&D afficionados, so either he would have to choose a fairly obscure creature or a heavily modified one to keep the MitD in the dark as long as possible.

Rich decided what MitD was long before he had the forums in their current size. Now, I'm not sure how popular his comic was around page 100, but I'm sure it wasn't anywhere the current level. Also, I fail to see why you think Rich would want to keep him in the dark. If he wanted that, he'd stop giving away clues. Given the 90/10 rule* (i.e. like he did when he moved away from jokes about rules), even if we eventually figure it out (or if we have already), 90% of the readership will not know, and we know that's enough for Rich.

And while such a creature might not be of Rich's making, it's reveal might still provoke the same "meh" reaction as the "therblewurkersaurus".

You are confused. Rich's objection to the therblewurkersaurus is not that it would get a "meh" reaction, but that it would not be a proper guessing game for those that want to guess what MitD is. For those that care, once it is revealed, if it can be googled so we can then slap our collective foreheads and go "why didn't we see it?" (or, alternatively, "but it doesn't fit!", although I hope not...), then that'll be what we should expect, nothing more and nothing else. Every other reader will just accept it, and care not one iota.

I think a better way would be to take a creature that is in the public domain, not too clearly defined in terms of abilities, but still with a number of well known characteristics without any game relevance. This would leave Rich enough liberty to develop the abilities of the monster as he sees fit and as plot demands, while keeping the possibility of dropping hints as to its nature and avoid the "meh" reaction at its eventual reveal.

No, instead a big section of the readership would call foul because the mad hatter, or the jabberwocky, or a diplodocus, are not able to do what Rich made them do. If it was, say, the mad hatter all along, why was he able to cast magic spells? Why was he able to crack the ground with a stomp? Adding characteristics to an existing creature is just as bad as making the creature up in the first place

As to the Snark:
You're reaching with the "subtle hints" from the Monopoly game and there doesn't seem to be anything about great strength (unless it is tied to great size, I suppose, in which case we're back to "fitting under the umbrella" problem).

But I want to address this quote, since it is the only touching on the escape scene

Another quote:
"'But oh, beamish nephew, beware of the day,
If your Snark be a Boojum! For then
You will softly and suddenly vanish away,
And never be met with again!'
might tie in with having the MitD make V & O-Chul disappear (tenuous evidence, I'll admit).

This is really grasping for straws. At first glance, I'm thinking it is meant to be poetical language to "if you attack a Boojun, you'll die, and be eaten, never to be seen again". But even if we take it at face value, it doesn't fit. V and O'Chul did vanish, but were "met with again" immediately. And if you twist it to mean they won't meet MitD again, it is still ridiculous: I very much doubt that the O'Chul-MitD connection is not going to be brought back, and of course V will sooner or later confront Evil Team again with the rest of the OotS.

The Protean fits just fine.

To be fair, the Protean doesn't fit completely. There are still a few minor issues that need some wrangling. But it fits better than anything else suggested so far, including both King Kong's descendant and Snark.

Grey Wolf

*90/10 rule: try to please 90% of your followers 90% percent of the time, rather than 10% of the total 100% of the time. Basically, do not narrow your readership, broaden it. Rich has mentioned this idea a few times, and was fundamental in the growth of the comic's readership.

[zorba1994]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the MitD is also clearly not powerful enough to kill the main party all by itself or with Redcloak's help, even if Roy is sword-less and V is paralyzed, Xykon's quote being "you don't bring in your star relief pitcher when you're 12-0 in the 9th inning".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

[Hardcore]

I think it would be nice if the preface had a list of the set of minimum characteristics. Trying to find something that explain all, that is even the minor ones, is too hard. Probably futile too considering that lots of things are story and plot affected. Like MitD having a tounge, the joke about about girls in clubs, and possibly even being charmed.
The earthquake stomp, otoh, and the effect of the audience at the cirkus would count as minimum characteristics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it would be nice if the preface had a list of the set of minimum characteristics. Trying to find something that explain all, that is even the minor ones, is too hard. Probably futile too considering that lots of things are story and plot affected. Like MitD having a tounge, the joke about about girls in clubs, and possibly even being charmed.
The earthquake stomp, otoh, and the effect of the audience at the cirkus would count as minimum characteristics.

Try reading the section 3a on forerunners, where the minimum characteristics are already described. Not the most obvious place for it, I'll admit, but on the other hand, I don't think it could stand on its own, either.

GW

[Zeofar]

I think a slight restructuring and expansion (To contain the tower scene) of Section 1 would actually be ideal, as it would then explain all the basic necessary qualities for the MitD. As it stands, Section 1 mentions that the monster was not created by Rich, the reaction by the circus crowd, and the escape, but not any information on the tower scene. I think making a summary of all those somewhere in there would clear up confusion and be very well placed.

[Kish]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the MitD is also clearly not powerful enough to kill the main party all by itself or with Redcloak's help, even if Roy is sword-less and V is paralyzed, Xykon's quote being "you don't bring in your star relief pitcher when you're 12-0 in the 9th inning".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

This makes a lot of assumptions--from "Xykon knows exactly how powerful the creature in the darkness is" to, "Xykon was concerned about the creature in the darkness losing, rather than, say, defecting."

[mp122984]

I've been wondering something myself. I may have missed a discussion answering this point, and would greatly appreciate if someone could answer this for me.

Strip 299 is listed as proof that the MitD can't raise undead. Would it be possible that the MitD at least has the potential to do so (and possibly unknowingly can already do so), and that Redcloak's rebuff is more him believing that MitD currently lacked the ability? If I were to say to a Cleric 1, "Well, unless you gained 4 Cleric levels last night, you won't be raising any dead?", that doesn't mean he'll never be able to do so, only that he can't do so right now. In fact, it occurs to me (I'm probably reaching here) that Redcloak's statement, while sarcastic, implies that MitD could gain levels in cleric and that it was only an XP issue.

I probably am wrong on this, but I'd be thankful if someone could lead me to where this is proven as such. Thank you for reading.

[whitelaughter]

On the face of it I think you make a fair argument I have been unable to find reference of the attributed "magical powers" with a simple google search. Could you please post a link to a page that can give us a more extensive description of the species and its magical powers?

Thank you!
Simplest place to get a list of the many different takes on King Kong is wiki, but for Magical Powers:
http://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/king_kong.htm

Basically, electrical immunity/projection. The importance of this point is not what he can do, but that he is can be magically capable and still be 'canon'. Justification for his saving O-chul would turn more to Kong's impressive escape when on display; escape was supposed to be impossible.

[Kish]

In fact, it occurs to me (I'm probably reaching here) that Redcloak's statement, while sarcastic, implies that MitD could gain levels in cleric and that it was only an XP issue.

Nearly anyone could gain levels in cleric. It's not an alignment or race-restricted class.

[whitelaughter]

Would it be possible that the MitD at least has the potential to do so (and possibly unknowingly can already do so), and that Redcloak's rebuff is more him believing that MitD currently lacked the ability?

Actually, this could imply that MitD can gain class levels, as Redcloak has to rule the option out: and not all monsters have that ability. It's a reach, but not excessively so.

[Swordpriest]

As others have pointed out, though, King Kong is nothing but an enormous gorilla. If we accept that the MitD fits under that umbrella, he'd be nothing but an ordinary-sized gorilla. Which fits absolutely nothing about him, at all.

[Bongos]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the MitD is also clearly not powerful enough to kill the main party all by itself or with Redcloak's help, even if Roy is sword-less and V is paralyzed, Xykon's quote being "you don't bring in your star relief pitcher when you're 12-0 in the 9th inning".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

I think you misunderstand that quote. The game was over for Xykon because of the gate being destroyed, so he had no reason to reveal the MitD because Team Evil already lost the game they were after. Destroying Oots at that time wasn't really on the agenda.

I'm pretty sure Xykon feels the MitD is powerful enough to destroy Oots, because Xykon gave the MitD orders to devour Oots if the MitD ever came across them.

[Kish]

The game was over for Xykon because of the gate being destroyed,

No. Elan hadn't blown up the dungeon and gate yet, remember?

[Bongos]

yeah your right, the boom was Xykon getting his body destroyed, which ended the game because he could no longer perform the ritual to control the gate/snarl or whatever he was planning to do. Better for Team Evil to try again somewhere else and keep the MitD a secret in case they ever came across those meddling kids again.

[whitelaughter]

As others have pointed out, though, King Kong is nothing but an enormous gorilla. If we accept that the MitD fits under that umbrella, he'd be nothing but an ordinary-sized gorilla. Which fits absolutely nothing about him, at all.

Please read my post - particularly those points regarding Kong's size and supernatural abilities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Please read my post - particularly those points regarding Kong's size and supernatural abilities.

I'm guessing you are referring to this:

Further, the MiTD's (grand)dad had wildly varying sizes (a criticism of his first film), had people sacrificed to him but was nice to the one we meet, hated being stared at/photographed and made an impossible escape when this happened (this is what made me realise who he is) was immune to most damage, can only speak in some remakes, shook the earth when he moved and in the Japanese remake had magical powers.

MitD doesn't have "wildly varying sizes" (and neither did his dad, for that matter). Sure, he could be the son of King Kong, but that still doesn't explain where MitD's strength comes from. MitD himself, if he is descendent from King Kong, is just a normal sized gorilla. Normal sized gorillas cannot punch people through walls, or cause earthquakes by stomping.

Also, if the extent of King Kong's magical powers is resistance to electricity, then it is underwhelming, particularly given that is only in one obscure remake. You cannot extrapolate that a descendant would be able to teleport people from that fact. Indeed, given the sparse evidence provided, I'd assume it was not so much a magical power as simply the fact it's a massive gorilla, and ignores the pain from the electricity.

So, to answer your implied criticism: yes, I read your post. It does not address the problems of the idea. Did you read mine?

Edit:

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the MitD is also clearly not powerful enough to kill the main party all by itself or with Redcloak's help, even if Roy is sword-less and V is paralyzed, Xykon's quote being "you don't bring in your star relief pitcher when you're 12-0 in the 9th inning".

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

This is a good clue, but not a decisive one. The OotS was weaker then (level 13-ish, I believe). It may no longer be the case that Xykon would believe that. In terms of what we are looking for, though, it changes very little, since we are already looking for high level monsters.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

Not that I agree with it, but I think you're misreading that post. If the MitD isn't strong enough to kill the Order on its own, then that points to a lower-level creature, especially given the timeframe.

[lost_my_NHL]

Why do we think that MiTD was level 13ish and was gaining levels?

Also, could MiTD be a character in another webcomic? One whose author Rich has a good rapport with, and who agreed to let Rich use it? Since there are enough people on these forums who read multiple webcomics, and rich has allowed other artists to draw OOTS as promotional scenes when he didn't put up a comic, might that be fair game?

Whitelaughter's idea of not being totally in the public domain made me think of this. Admittedly, I don't have any ideas. I only read GiTP, Erfworld, and Looking for Group.

EDIT: found guest comics:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/GuestStrips.html
Maybe MiTP is from one of their comics?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why do we think that MiTD was level 13ish and was gaining levels?

We don't.

Also, could MiTD be a character in another webcomic? One whose author Rich has a good rapport with, and who agreed to let Rich use it? Since there are enough people on these forums who read multiple webcomics, and rich has allowed other artists to draw OOTS as promotional scenes when he didn't put up a comic, might that be fair game?

Technically yes, it would be legal. I believe Skull (from PvP) has been mentioned before. And consider that it has to be that old a character for Rich to have picked it, got permission, etc. way back in comic 100.

Not that I agree with it, but I think you're misreading that post. If the MitD isn't strong enough to kill the Order on its own, then that points to a lower-level creature, especially given the timeframe.

You are right. Somehow, I thought that the point he was making was that MitD could win. Sorry.I think the problem is that that's what I get from the scene - that even though MitD might be able to fight a good fight, the situation is pretty much lost at this point (since controlling the rift is no longer going to be possible). It hinges, I suppose, on how one reads "star relief pitcher". I don't know much of baseball, but to me it suggests that if things had not gone so pear-shaped, MitD could still win as a surprise release. But what would be the point? With Xykon a week away of spellcasting, the place was going to blow up anyway (I assume their plan, if they had one, hinged on time-sensitive spellcasting between the destruction of the gate and the destruction of everything else? Maybe containing the explosion? I suppose we'll never know).

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

It's along the lines of closing the barn door after the horse gets out. In baseball, the better the pitcher is, the harder it is for the other team to score. So if you're already down by twelve (which is an enormous amount in baseball) there's no point in sending your best relief pitcher in to try and stop the bleeding. The damage is done, so conserve your big guns for a day when they can actually help you win, instead of just making the loss less embarrassing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's along the lines of closing the barn door after the horse gets out. In baseball, the better the pitcher is, the harder it is for the other team to score. So if you're already down by twelve (which is an enormous amount in baseball) there's no point in sending your best relief pitcher in to try and stop the bleeding. The damage is done, so conserve your big guns for a day when they can actually help you win, instead of just making the loss less embarrassing.

OK, so at best, if we assume that the baseball reference is meant to be a very acurate portrayal of the situation (big if), we could conclude that at the time, Xykon believed that MitD would be their best diversionary asset. It might not have been able to win on his own, but it would stop the OotS from winning.

Which kinda makes sense, actually. I suspect that MitD might be a good meatshield. Something that can take so many hits that it neutralises (or at least severely depletes) V's spells. Nevertheless, addressing the subjacent question of MitD's power level: the tower scene was created just to show that, no matter how bumbling and innocent MitD might seem, he is a credible threat. The point was further driven home by the Earthquake scene. Can he take on the entire order himself? That's for the 3.5 D&D geeks to tell us. I don't know enough about relative powers of the system (beyond, that is, that they are broken beyond repair). For what is worth, I don't think he can - but he'll be a danger and a distraction.

Grey Wolf

[Kaliban]

I didn't read all this thread, just the opening post, and I don't know D&D well enough for a guess, but I just read Start of Darkness, and was surpised by a number of things...

Point 1 : When first appearing in the jungle, MitD speaks in a more adult, distinguished way... When around Right Eye's son, he acts childish. He proves his intelligence when playing with O'chul, his foolishness around others...

Point 2 : In Start of Darkness, the verb "to see" is often used referring to MitD. Xykon asks himself what Redcloack "saw in this monster". MitD says "sometimes it is hard being looked at by so many".

It reminded me of Martian Chronicles, and the Martian who changes to fit what the person he meets expect/desire to see. Or the Sandman, who is seen differently by each person.

Are there creatures, in D&D, who are "reflections" of other ceatures desires/fears/beliefs ? Becoming a child when talking to a child, a "good man" when talking to a friendly paladin, or a powerful enemy when attacked by an unfriendly one ?

Maybe it is so hard to discover what it is because all characters who met him see him differently (the hunters think it is a beast - but he speaks like them, the audience wants a monster and sees one, Xycon wants something powerful, etc).

Any way, it's just an idea I had when reading.

[Sharkman1231]

This is a thought I had when reading another thread about the animate dead spell material components. I thought it could be important to post here too (slightly edited).

The MC of animate dead is an onyx gem, right? Many people on these forums debate about what the MITD is. One of the qualifiers is based off of what RC said to him about providing materials for the spell. My first assumption was that it could be a body to create and undead out of. But couldn't that also mean that the MITD is a type of creature made with or from gemstones? Like an earth elemental or something? I know elementals don't sleep and stuff, but couldn't this open up a few other possibilities? Just a thought, and I'm not sure if it has been suggested before. What do you guys think?

[137beth]

I didn't read all this thread, just the opening post, and I don't know D&D well enough for a guess, but I just read Start of Darkness, and was surpised by a number of things...

Point 1 : When first appearing in the jungle, MitD speaks in a more adult, distinguished way... When around Right Eye's son, he acts childish. He proves his intelligence when playing with O'chul, his foolishness around others...

Point 2 : In Start of Darkness, the verb "to see" is often used referring to MitD. Xykon asks himself what Redcloack "saw in this monster". MitD says "sometimes it is hard being looked at by so many".

It reminded me of Martian Chronicles, and the Martian who changes to fit what the person he meets expect/desire to see. Or the Sandman, who is seen differently by each person.

Are there creatures, in D&D, who are "reflections" of other ceatures desires/fears/beliefs ? Becoming a child when talking to a child, a "good man" when talking to a friendly paladin, or a powerful enemy when attacked by an unfriendly one ?

Maybe it is so hard to discover what it is because all characters who met him see him differently (the hunters think it is a beast - but he speaks like them, the audience wants a monster and sees one, Xycon wants something powerful, etc).

Any way, it's just an idea I had when reading.

Xykon wants something powerful, and DOESN'T see one.

[Necroticplague]

This is a thought I had when reading another thread about the animate dead spell material components. I thought it could be important to post here too (slightly edited).

The MC of animate dead is an onyx gem, right? Many people on these forums debate about what the MITD is. One of the qualifiers is based off of what RC said to him about providing materials for the spell. My first assumption was that it could be a body to create and undead out of. But couldn't that also mean that the MITD is a type of creature made with or from gemstones? Like an earth elemental or something? I know elementals don't sleep and stuff, but couldn't this open up a few other possibilities? Just a thought, and I'm not sure if it has been suggested before. What do you guys think?

I kind of thought something similar, except I thought he might have been some kind of golem made out of brackish water and grave dirt , so that they could scoop a bucket or two of him and use him as the MC for create undead. In order to keep himself from drying out/demineralizing, he would need a constant stream of water and nutrients, so whoever created him could have "programmed" him to eat and drink (stew of which contains a lot of both). His creator would have a heavier need to eat and drink (being biological), and might have been larger if MITD was a "running project" (being continually improved). He might have escaped or been set free to a rain forest, which is actually a good habitat for him. He could get more water due to the rain, and possibly leech nutrients from the ground. Since he was created, the wizard who made him could have given him the ability to cast any spell he himself could cast (including wish and stomp). He would have to sleep to regain his spell slot if he could only cast once, even if he is a golem. Wish could be used to simulate the effects of an earthquake spell, and using wish several times could drain his xp, which could be memories depending on how you fluff it, explaining his complete lack of memories (abuse of power drained his xp to very low). He might have some some good DR (possibly DR 20/adamantine or epic) that could explain why he has a hard time being hurt (with paper being rule of funny). Admitingly, it wouldn't be hideous enough to cause someone to puke, but someone who realizes what it was could see the beauty in it's design, and those with experience with constructs would be unimpressed. The mage might realize it as a golem, but not out of the odd material composition. Since he is an intelligent construct, I think that removes immunity to mind affecting spells.

So here is my proposed stats:
Size/Type: Large Intelligent Construct
Hit Dice:10d10+30(86)
Initiative:-1
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
AC:20(-1 size,-1 Dexterity, +12 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple:+7/+17
Attack:Slam +12 melee (2d10)
Full Attack:2 Slam +12 melee (2d10)
Space/Reach:10/10
Special Attacks:
Special Qualities:Construct traits, DR 20/adamantine or epic, Darkvision 60ft, immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves:Fort +3,Ref+2, Will+3
Abilities:Strength 25, Dex 8, Constitution -, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 5, Charisma 10
Skills:knowledge(arcana) 13, Spellcraft 7
Feats:Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Cleave
Environment:Underground
Organization:Solitary
CR:??
Treasure:None
Alignment:True Neutral?

Spells:Wish 1/rest (as wizard)

Now for a little bit of rule lawyering: Awesome Blow could have easily been used in the smash through wall scene. The part about walls states that "If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle. " There are two different ways this could be used to say It could send Miko and her horse through the wall. 1) It simply dealt enough damage to the wall to break it (Miko's escape would have only worked if the stone was very weak). 2) It only states that they stop in a square next to the object. It doesn't say which side of the object, so it is possible that she simply stopped outside the wall.

[Doxkid]

I like that...and it would make sense...except I dont think there are any monsters like that already. It "isnt a new creature" and all.

I'm sticking with a normal humanoid race, possible human, with appropriate stats and magical items for the MitD we know and a class/PrC that gives a few weak looking abilities like teleport once per decade.

[Gryffon]

I didn't read all this thread, just the opening post, and I don't know D&D well enough for a guess, but I just read Start of Darkness, and was surpised by a number of things...

Point 1 : When first appearing in the jungle, MitD speaks in a more adult, distinguished way... When around Right Eye's son, he acts childish. He proves his intelligence when playing with O'chul, his foolishness around others...

Point 2 : In Start of Darkness, the verb "to see" is often used referring to MitD. Xykon asks himself what Redcloack "saw in this monster". MitD says "sometimes it is hard being looked at by so many".

It reminded me of Martian Chronicles, and the Martian who changes to fit what the person he meets expect/desire to see. Or the Sandman, who is seen differently by each person.

Are there creatures, in D&D, who are "reflections" of other ceatures desires/fears/beliefs ? Becoming a child when talking to a child, a "good man" when talking to a friendly paladin, or a powerful enemy when attacked by an unfriendly one ?

Maybe it is so hard to discover what it is because all characters who met him see him differently (the hunters think it is a beast - but he speaks like them, the audience wants a monster and sees one, Xycon wants something powerful, etc).

Any way, it's just an idea I had when reading.

I like this idea. Wikipedia and TV Tropes refer to it as Empathic Shapeshifting/Shapeshifter. Not quite the same, but a similar idea would be the Boggart from Harry Potter. It could change shape, and also gain powers from what it was mimicking. I'm curious myself now if there is something like this in D&D.

[mashhaster]

I've not been following the attempts at solving this riddle, and I've not the time to read through this entire thread.

That being said, I'd still like to add my 2 copper.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

In the first panel of that strip, the MitD expresses genuine shock at something not happening, despite his having hoped for it really really hard. Between this and the O'chul/V escape from Xykon scene, I've got to think that whatever the MitD is, it's psionic.

[Kondziu]

That being said, I'd still like to add my 2 copper.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html

I find the first panel extremally meaningful, like Rich left us a "clue bomb", and yet it seems somehow overlooked by forum community.