[BitP:R] BleachITP Reborn: OOC Thread 9

[Frozen_Feet]

I would like to remind everyone that Takeshi is an arrogant immature twit and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt, as he's most likely sleep-deprived, drunk and / or high. There.

As far as fallouts go, Innis is well aware Sayuri will be raining fiery vengeance on Takeshi once this is done. We've been joking about this for days.

[tgva8889]

As for the "lawless gangs"...There is a law, and it is enforced. There's probably not an overwhelming amount of such gangs, considering the size of 10th.

Also, I imagine most of the Shinigami who are seen by the Rukon are 4th, 10th, 13th, and maybe 8th Division, as those are the three most likely to leave Sereitei to perform their duties (and be seen, stupid 2nd).

Just saying.

[Innis Cabal]

As for the "lawless gangs"...There is a law, and it is enforced. There's probably not an overwhelming amount of such gangs, considering the size of 10th.

Also, I imagine most of the Shinigami who are seen by the Rukon are 4th, 10th, 13th, and maybe 8th Division, as those are the three most likely to leave Sereitei to perform their duties (and be seen, stupid 2nd).

Just saying.

There's this. A rather large criminal syndicate

Also, the 10th isn't large enough to police all of Soul Society -and- the Rukongai perfectly. Especially the further out you go into the wild and lawless parts.

[Callos_DeTerran]

...Innis, you realize Takeshi is ignoring a gigantic problem in the form of the Nobility, don't you? This would utterly upset the social structure, something those who approve of the status quo are probably going to be very unhappy with.

(With the caveat that the Hayashi's will probably support it, since Horn has made them of sweetness and light. )

Also, massive injections of capital and goods into relatively lawless areas never ever devolves into massive civil war and infighting. No sirree.

Not everyone studies history or knows stuff like that. And it doesn't always result in such either.

[KnightDisciple]

Sayuri does not exist in a vacuum of organization.

As for Takeshi being an immature twit; that was a given in my mind, but the ideas are still being given serious weight. Not that there's no merit, mind.

But one has to wonder if, as Tacky pointed out, a sudden, radical injection of large amounts of money and goods into such an area is totally wise. A more measured, long-term approach, working outwards from the closer, more stable areas seems a better permanent solution

*Cough*Just like Satoshi's doing in Classic BleachITP*Cough*
*Cough*And just like I was smacked for assuming it had any immediate effect*Cough*

Beyond that, if large-scale violent reactions are even possibly expected/intended....

Isn't that the kind of major plot point that should be brought up OOC first?

EDIT:

Not everyone studies history or knows stuff like that. And it doesn't always result in such either.

Everyone ought to...

Beyond that, someone seriously proposing to do this should expend the effort to think about and research such possible implications.

And whether it "doesn't always" result in that, doesn't mean it can't. That's no small consideration.

[tgva8889]

There's this. A rather large criminal syndicate

Also, the 10th isn't large enough to police all of Soul Society -and- the Rukongai perfectly. Especially the further out you go into the wild and lawless parts.

Whose to say 10th doesn't have men inside that criminal syndicate? There are groups of 10th trained to infiltrate such organizations.

No, but 10th is 3 times the size of 13th, and we expect 13th to do a pretty good job of policing the Mortal World. Whose to say 10th can't do an even better job of policing what I imagine is a smaller area with even the same number of men assigned to it?

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they're probably not nearly as frequent as anyone suggesting they are thinks.

[Innis Cabal]

I didn't think, nor do I expect it to be immediate. I understand it might seem bold, but thats the point. As for immature punk...I'm going to try to say this polietly. But...thats all personal opinion, and I'd ask that such be kept personal and in the OOC. I also don't see anything pointing to either myself or Takeshi thinking this is going to be over night change, or be accepted across the board.

I also didn't think we had to discuss every plot out in the OOC. Again, I know this is bold, but I thought we would be working out plots in the IC Game, where they start and only bringing up issues if there were any. Which, we're doing now, and I'm trying to answer and clarify them as best as possible. Though I'm still puzzled where anyone is geting that the effects are going to just switch on and be ok, or that Takeshi isn't considering everything.

Whose to say 10th doesn't have men inside that criminal syndicate? There are groups of 10th trained to infiltrate such organizations.

No, but 10th is 3 times the size of 13th, and we expect 13th to do a pretty good job of policing the Mortal World. Whose to say 10th can't do an even better job of policing what I imagine is a smaller area with even the same number of men assigned to it?

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they're probably not nearly as frequent as anyone suggesting they are thinks.

Thats 1,500 men. They have to police Soul Society and the Rukongai. 500 Shinigami is enough to police Japan, which is all they police. Not the whole mortal world. I also never said there were no 10th Divisioners in the Syndicate, but you made it sound like Lawless area's didn't exist. And thats just not possible.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Well, we can't go into specifics Callos, but I'd have to say it is far more likely then not.

And I'm not stating that everyone has to know it. But it is a very real fact, and something that has to be considered.

And more to the point, I'm with Knight. Either way it goes, turning the Rukon into paradise or a violent hellhole (...alright, an even worse violent hellhole) this seems like something that should have been at least mentioned to the greater public.

[Frozen_Feet]

Sayuri does not exist in a vacuum of organization.

Of course not. That's why she's going to call 7th and tell Emet not to do it, and rally female members of Kido Corps to gang up on Takeshi.

As for Takeshi being an immature twit; that was a given in my mind, but the ideas are still being given serious weight. Not that there's no merit, mind.

But one has to wonder if, as Tacky pointed out, a sudden, radical injection of large amounts of money and goods into such an area is totally wise. A more measured, long-term approach, working outwards from the closer, more stable areas seems a better permanent solution

*Cough*Just like Satoshi's doing in Classic BleachITP*Cough*
*Cough*And just like I was smacked for assuming it had any immediate effect*Cough*

Beyond that, if large-scale violent reactions are even possibly expected/intended....

Isn't that the kind of major plot point that should be brought up OOC first?

EDIT:Everyone ought to...

Beyond that, someone seriously proposing to do this should expend the effort to think about and research such possible implications.

And whether it "doesn't always" result in that, doesn't mean it can't. That's no small consideration.

Yes, Takeshi isn't being very rational about this. Yes, there are implications. Yes, it has the potential to become a major plot point.

Yes, member of Central and Gotei can step up and say 'No' to Takeshi in-game.

[tgva8889]

I remember a request I made earlier...I think if people have to post in the OoC about something like that, it probably means it was something like what happened with the Hollow Mask. Minor as it may have seemed.

[Frozen_Feet]

There's one, big problem with policing Rukongai. Dozens, if not hundreds of people appear there every day out of the blue, completely ignorant of laws and customs of the place. What's more, there's no way to check their backgrounds or the like. Yes, worst of the lot go to hell, but many of the "neutral" cases might go a bit loony at the face of death. So, Soul Society probably has dozens of small-time gangs and criminal running afoul, because keeping them all in check is just not possible.

[13_CBS]

I also didn't think we had to discuss every plot out in the OOC. Again, I know this is bold, but I thought we would be working out plots in the IC Game, where they start and only bringing up issues if there were any. Which, we're doing now, and I'm trying to answer and clarify them as best as possible. Though I'm still puzzled where anyone is geting that the effects are going to just switch on and be ok, or that Takeshi isn't considering everything.

We're just concerned because, as Knight and others point out, there are serious, serious political and social consequences to what Takeshi is doing. This isn't a matter of a bunch of young Shinigami going out to lunch, or the captains having a drunken party; what Takeshi is doing can have a serious effect on what Rokongai will look like in the future, and what the nature of its relationship will be with Seireitei. Such a thing, we believe, is something that perhaps should have been told to the rest of us in the OOC thread for a quick once-over.

The effects won't be immediate, true, but nonetheless Takeshi's plan, which may not necessarily lead to civil war, will likely have a great impact on how the flow of events go in Soul Society. It'd be weird if it didnt.

Thats 1,500 men. They have to police Soul Society and the Rukongai. 500 Shinigami is enough to police Japan, which is all they police. Not the whole mortal world. I also never said there were no 10th Divisioners in the Syndicate, but you made it sound like Lawless area's didn't exist. And thats just not possible.

It'd be possible that, due to social stratification, the lower-numbered districts in Rukongai were able to..."convince" law enforcement to favor their districts more, and concentrate police resources there. This could at least explain the relative lawlessness in the outer districts.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yes, member of Central and Gotei can step up and say 'No' to Takeshi in-game.

Yeah, but he doesn't have to listen to the member of the Gotei who says it. That whole 'seperate from the Gotei 13' bit.

[13_CBS]

Yeah, but he doesn't have to listen to the member of the Gotei who says it. That whole 'seperate from the Gotei 13' bit.

Would the other 12 Captains have the legal jurisdiction to halt Takeshi's plan without resorting to extra-legal means?

[Frozen_Feet]

I remember a request I made earlier...I think if people have to post in the OoC about something like that, it probably means it was something like what happened with the Hollow Mask. Minor as it may have seemed.

There is one big difference: Takeshi is talking about what might happen. Any of the changes he's making aren't immediate. They don't have far-reaching implications of the past operations of Kido Corps. It's like one character saying "Ooh, I'm going to kill X". That doesn't make X die, or even mean a plot regarding that is set in stone. Takeshi announcing his plans to Kido Corps serves the purpose of revealing this plot just fine. There's time, and resources, for other characters to come and prevent him from doing this. There already is one intent to do just that.

[Frozen_Feet]

Yeah, but he doesn't have to listen to the member of the Gotei who says it. That whole 'seperate from the Gotei 13' bit.

He needs the 7th to build the place again. There are resources Takeshi will need from Gotei, and he has to negotiate about them. Just because your household is technically separate from the company you hire to build a new garage for you, doesn't mean you can go about it any way you like.

Would the other 12 Captains have the legal jurisdiction to halt Takeshi's plan without resorting to extra-legal means?

Gotei are tasked with protecting Seireitei. If, at any point, Takeshi's plan threaten integrity of Seireitei, they have, by martial law, the right to seize him.

[Innis Cabal]

Would the other 12 Captains have the legal jurisdiction to halt Takeshi's plan without resorting to extra-legal means?

Not unless they went to the Central 46.

There is one big difference: Takeshi is talking about what might happen. Any of the changes he's making aren't immediate. They don't have far-reaching implications of the past operations of Kido Corps. It's like one character saying "Ooh, I'm going to kill X". That doesn't make X die, or even mean a plot regarding that is set in stone. Takeshi announcing his plans to Kido Corps serves the purpose of revealing this plot just fine. There's time, and resources, for other characters to come and prevent him from doing this. There already is one intent to do just that.

This.

The plot hasn't started yet, as we're not doing plot atm. This is pre-plot. Talking about it, getting it so the players can see it. Its already leaked. Is it big? Ya, and it could grow to be a major plot in Soul Society. Is it ambitious? Ya, and its totally crazy to. But Takeshi has his reasons, and I'd like them to come out through actual RP, not discussion in the OOC. This isn't about a power or whats going to happen in post X. This is pre-plot and set up for further interaction in Soul Society when the plot starts going. This might even have far reaching effects into the Mortal World down the line.

Its a potential plot point that goes across the board. Its being discussed, and its clearly been brought up from the pre-plot posts.

He needs the 7th to build the place again. There are resources Takeshi will need from Gotei, and he has to negotiate about them. Just because your household is technically separate from the company you hire to build a new garage for you, doesn't mean you can go about it any way you like.

They can do it themselves. It will just take forever and a half, and it defeats the purpose Takeshi called in the 7th, which was to bridge the gap between the Kido Corp and the rest. Sayuri jepordizes that. The risks go both ways.

[tgva8889]

There's one, big problem with policing Rukongai. Dozens, if not hundreds of people appear there every day out of the blue, completely ignorant of laws and customs of the place. What's more, there's no way to check their backgrounds or the like. Yes, worst of the lot go to hell, but many of the "neutral" cases might go a bit loony at the face of death. So, Soul Society probably has dozens of small-time gangs and criminal running afoul, because keeping them all in check is just not possible.

So does every country. I see no issue with this, really.

I don't know how saying "there aren't as many lawless gangs as people think" makes it sound like there's no lawless areas.

Also, when did we decide that 13th only polices Japan? I didn't know that horngeek decided that, and it's not in the entry, so that's slightly confusing.

[Innis Cabal]

Also, when did we decide that 13th only polices Japan? I didn't know that horngeek decided that, and it's not in the entry, so that's slightly confusing.

They don't police the U.K. I assumed we were going with "Other Soul Societies but Japan's is the most important".

So does every country. I see no issue with this, really.

I don't know how saying "there aren't as many lawless gangs as people think" makes it sound like there's no lawless areas.

And we're asking how 1,500 men who are split up between Soul Society and 99 districts can police it even to the "There are a few lawless area's". It just dosn't make much sense to me. I didn't see anywhere, also, where there was anything saying our Rukongai was more peacefull and safe.

[Frozen_Feet]

So does every country. I see no issue with this, really.
.

And every country has their own criminal gangs and underworld, and scores of bums and homeless people.

[KnightDisciple]

So does every country. I see no issue with this, really.

I don't know how saying "there aren't as many lawless gangs as people think" makes it sound like there's no lawless areas.

Also, when did we decide that 13th only polices Japan? I didn't know that horngeek decided that, and it's not in the entry, so that's slightly confusing.

Probably when we said there was more than just the Japanese Soul Society in the world.

As evidenced by Edge's British Ambassador.

As for the whole "confused people popping into Rukongi", that's why people who want to reform Soul Society should look into establishing a series of "orientation stations", or something similar. Seed these throughout the Rukongi, and they're staffed by people dedicated to helping new arrivals get settled in.

Combine this with efforts to, perhaps, formulate more local forms of government (still under the ultimate rule of the Central 46) who help keep things organized in a more targeted manner, as well as some sort of police force formed by Rukon citizens, able to at least deal with the more minor crimes (theft, assault, and so on), leaving the 10th free to deal with major criminal rackets, riots, gangs, and the like.

Do all of this from the areas close to Seireitei outward, so that it has a "base" to rest upon. Expand slowly and carefully. It has less immediate results, but it's stable enough to last.


....That's how I'd do it, anyways. <_<

EDIT:

They don't police the U.K. I assumed we were going with "Other Soul Societies but Japan's is the most important".

Not...exactly. Japan's Soul Society is the most important in the context of the story we're telling here and now. Each Soul Society, in the scheme of the world itself, is pretty much equally important.

But for our game and story, Japan's SS is the one we focus on.

And we're asking how 1,500 men who are split up between Soul Society and 99 districts can police it even to the "There are a few lawless area's". It just dosn't make much sense to me. I didn't see anywhere, also, where there was anything saying our Rukongai was more peacefull and safe.

Remember that all of those 1500 have superhuman abilities.

I don't think it's a stretch for there to be at least a bit better peace and safety; any effort to help would improve things from canon.

[tgva8889]

I also never saw anything indicating that the Rukongai is so utterly terrible, so there you go.

We have no idea how large each district is, so assumptions like that are hard to make either way. If 500 Shinigami can watch all of Japan, it's possible that 1500 can watch all of Soul Society. We have no idea exactly how big Soul Society really is, so there's not much proof either way.

Also, only like 100 of 10th really needs to police the streets of Sereitei, because Sereitei is literally full of soldiers. If someone does something bad in Sereitei, there's over 2000 other Shinigami who could assist in the dealing with said threat, and all of them are just as capable of arresting someone as 10th.

[Innis Cabal]

Probably when we said there was more than just the Japanese Soul Society in the world.

As evidenced by Edge's British Ambassador.

As for the whole "confused people popping into Rukongi", that's why people who want to reform Soul Society should look into establishing a series of "orientation stations", or something similar. Seed these throughout the Rukongi, and they're staffed by people dedicated to helping new arrivals get settled in.

Combine this with efforts to, perhaps, formulate more local forms of government (still under the ultimate rule of the Central 46) who help keep things organized in a more targeted manner, as well as some sort of police force formed by Rukon citizens, able to at least deal with the more minor crimes (theft, assault, and so on), leaving the 10th free to deal with major criminal rackets, riots, gangs, and the like.

Do all of this from the areas close to Seireitei outward, so that it has a "base" to rest upon. Expand slowly and carefully. It has less immediate results, but it's stable enough to last.


....That's how I'd do it, anyways. <_<

And thats a great idea. One I'd personally do as well if I were in the seat to make decisions. But Takeshi is a kid thrust into command without really any pointers. Is he qualified? Yes, but he's also emotional and has alot of invested interest in what he's doing.

There's more going on, and its important, but this isn't something to rush. As seen by the already major reaction. So, I would ask that you trust myself, Hadrian, Frozen Feet and a few others to write a good potential plot. We've done it before in the last game. We've proven we can do it. Nothings changed from here to there.

We only discussed the first few plots for the kids since they were the focus, and even then we didn't really discuss it fully. Lots of things like this are going to happen, and its going to bog the game down and reduce that lovely organic feel if we have to drag it to the OOC every time someone wants to do something big. Let the plots work themselves out. It worked amazingly for the last game, and it'll work great here.

I also never saw anything indicating that the Rukongai is so utterly terrible, so there you go.

I assumed it was at Canon levels, since there was nothing said on it. So, pretty awful. So...there ya go.

We have no idea how large each district is, so assumptions like that are hard to make either way. If 500 Shinigami can watch all of Japan, it's possible that 1500 can watch all of Soul Society. We have no idea exactly how big Soul Society really is, so there's not much proof either way.

Big enough to accomidate a nation of 127,380,000 people. And thats the 2010 census. There are surely more people there. So...big. And the Rukongai even bigger.

Also, only like 100 of 10th really needs to police the streets of Sereitei, because Sereitei is literally full of soldiers. If someone does something bad in Sereitei, there's over 2000 other Shinigami who could assist in the dealing with said threat, and all of them are just as capable of arresting someone as 10th

Remember that all of those 1500 have superhuman abilities.

I don't think it's a stretch for there to be at least a bit better peace and safety; any effort to help would improve things from canon.

Thats fine...but that still dosn't mean the 80-99 range arn't as bad as said.

Just as an example TGVA and KD. My town is a town of 60,222 people. Between our Fire Service, Police Service, Highway Police service and the FBI we cannot find one serial Arsonist. Not only that, between the Police and the Highway Patrol, the Drug Cartels are shipping more drugs over the boarder each and every day then two years ago. And we can't stop them.

Its not realistic for a total of...1,400 people to police the -entire- Rukongai. Its to big, and since Souls can live to be in the 100's...chalk full of people. There is just to many people and area to cover even with 1,400 people.

[Callos_DeTerran]

We're just concerned because, as Knight and others point out, there are serious, serious political and social consequences to what Takeshi is doing. This isn't a matter of a bunch of young Shinigami going out to lunch, or the captains having a drunken party; what Takeshi is doing can have a serious effect on what Rokongai will look like in the future, and what the nature of its relationship will be with Seireitei. Such a thing, we believe, is something that perhaps should have been told to the rest of us in the OOC thread for a quick once-over.

I'm going to step in here and disagree, heartily. If something needs to be discussed and looked over in the OOC just because it might bring about serious consequences (political, social, plotwise) then there is an inherent problem that needs to be addressed. People can, and should, be trusted to begin plots and set plans in motion without getting the approval of the OOC because that's part of the very essence of free-form. Should said plot-maker be aware of any complaints/worries/concerns that people bring up in the OOC from what other people can see and know, then address them? Of course, it's common courtesy.

To use the example already given from the last game, people didn't mind that Satoshi began to try and change the Rukon on his own. They wanted to ensure that the effects were seen in a credible span of time rather then instantaneously, which was a reasonable concern and was addressed.

This is the same thing Takeshi is doing, except by different means. It COULD have consequences...but those will have to be seen during the course of the game, not pre-planned to the point of suffocation of new ideas being thrown in.

EDIT: Also, what Innis and Frozen said.

The effects won't be immediate, true, but nonetheless Takeshi's plan, which may not necessarily lead to civil war, will likely have a great impact on how the flow of events go in Soul Society. It'd be weird if it didnt.

Right, it would be weird. And there would be effects. But we should see how they play out in the game, not demand to know what is planned (if anything) right now. Because by that same thought, we should demand that Zarah tells us Kujo's plans so we can approve them, because I REALLY DOUBT there won't be consequences from his actions.

[Frozen_Feet]

I also never saw anything indicating that the Rukongai is so utterly terrible, so there you go.

We have no idea how large each district is, so assumptions like that are hard to make either way. If 500 Shinigami can watch all of Japan, it's possible that 1500 can watch all of Soul Society. We have no idea exactly how big Soul Society really is, so there's not much proof either way.

Also, only like 100 of 10th really needs to police the streets of Sereitei, because Sereitei is literally full of soldiers. If someone does something bad in Sereitei, there's over 2000 other Shinigami who could assist in the dealing with said threat, and all of them are just as capable of arresting someone as 10th.

Rukongai isn't utterly terrible. There are just bound to be districts, further from Seireitei, which are pretty seedy. I mean, Finland is anything but terrible, but that doesn't mean there aren't vast amounts of homeless, poor, unemployed, or criminal people. Also, again, it's Takeshi talking. His opinion on the matter might be skewed just a bit.

Also, Hollow incursions are likely much less common than ordinary crime, and usually more noticeable. Also, I'd say deaths, in general, are outnumbered by total amounts of crime. There are reasons why a lesser amount of Shinigami could do one, while a larger force would still have problems with the other.

[KnightDisciple]

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for those of us who have characters in Soul Society, as peaceful, law-abiding members of Soul Society, to want to know when someone's going to do something that could radically change the entire social order and structure of Soul Society.

It's a given that Kujo wants to cause chaos.

It's not a given that a person of the Kido Commander's standing will engage in actions that may cause chaos in Soul Society.

I'm not saying it's a guarantee.

I'll drop this for now, but I don't think we were fundamentally wrong bringing this up OOC, nor was it an effort to make the game "not organic".

[Innis Cabal]

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for those of us who have characters in Soul Society, as peaceful, law-abiding members of Soul Society, to want to know when someone's going to do something that could radically change the entire social order and structure of Soul Society.

Its not. Its also not unreasonable for people to want to set up potential plot points without having them to bring them to the OOC each time they want to make one. As Callos and FF also said, thats sorta not the point of Free Form.

I'm going to step in here and disagree, heartily. If something needs to be discussed and looked over in the OOC just because it might bring about serious consequences (political, social, plotwise) then there is an inherent problem that needs to be addressed. People can, and should, be trusted to begin plots and set plans in motion without getting the approval of the OOC because that's part of the very essence of free-form. Should said plot-maker be aware of any complaints/worries/concerns that people bring up in the OOC from what other people can see and know, then address them? Of course, it's common courtesy.

That was put much nicer then I could put it at the moment. The bolded for emphasis. No one's telling anyone here to stop bringing up worries. I in fact am asking you to. But as for the rest, anyone should be able to start plot points or potential plot points without having to bring it to the OOC just because it might actually change things in the story. As thats what the whole story is about, keeping it moving. Keeping it flowing. There are always going to be consequences for actions. Its a Law of Nature.

[13_CBS]

If something needs to be discussed and looked over in the OOC just because it might bring about serious consequences (political, social, plotwise) then there is an inherent problem that needs to be addressed. People can, and should, be trusted to begin plots and set plans in motion without getting the approval of the OOC because that's part of the very essence of free-form.

I dunno...I suppose I'll have to defer to your opinion since you have much more freeform experience than I do, but in a game with lots of participants, even more characters, and plots that are, in essence, interactions between those characters and their players, I feel really, really nervous about not sitting down and discussing plot stuff. It's all really chaotic, with lots and lots of factors to consider. This was the reason why I felt uneasy about the Konoha Invasion going underway without apparent planning; what if the plot demanded that a character die, despite its player's wishes for continuing to play that character? What if people got poor or senseless match ups due to some characters attracting more opponents than others? And so forth.

Or, in this case, the addition of capital and material into Rukongai. It's been revealed that not everyone is on the same page as to what the nature of the outer districts of Rukongai is like. Tgva is arguing (I think) that Rukongai as a whole is a relatively peaceful, lawful area; this means that Takeshi's bold strategy has a strong probability of not only being..."unorthodox" but also wasteful and pointless since, well, it's apparently not nearly as bad as Takeshi thinks it is. Then there's also the fact that none of the captains seem to have a legal means to stop Takeshi until it's too late. What to do then? It seems like Takeshi can't be stopped, and since events have already been set in motion anyone who had major plans for Rukongai probably now has their story messed up.


Perhaps we have different definitions of "Free-Form Roleplaying"? I see Free-Form as a story that a team of people construct, a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Vampire: The Masquerade sans dice rolling and a large number of written rules. I also believe that construction of a story ought to be a planned, structured thing, and should include the input of everyone involved in making that story, from the story's birth as an idea to its end as a written thing.

Should said plot-maker be aware of any complaints/worries/concerns that people bring up in the OOC from what other people can see and know, then address them? Of course, it's common courtesy.

Of course. But I also believe that plot makers ought to share at least the general outline of the plot with others to keep people informed.

To use the example already given from the last game, people didn't mind that Satoshi began to try and change the Rukon on his own. They wanted to ensure that the effects were seen in a credible span of time rather then instantaneously, which was a reasonable concern and was addressed.

As you say, but I'm afraid that I wasn't here for the last game, so I haven't seen this example of yours firsthand.

This is the same thing Takeshi is doing, except by different means. It COULD have consequences...but those will have to be seen during the course of the game, not pre-planned to the point of suffocation of new ideas being thrown in.

And if the reasonable consequences are of these events are disliked by a sizable portion of the players? Is retconning an option?

Right, it would be weird. And there would be effects. But we should see how they play out in the game, not demand to know what is planned (if anything) right now.

Once more, my greatest concern is of the consequences altering Soul Society in a way that people wouldn't like. As things are progressing right now, there seems to be a high possibility of the lawless districts of Rukongai using the materiel to plot some kind of insurrection against Sereitei--perhaps secession, perhaps a hostile takeover, or something else. If things play out so that one of those things happens, and a lot of people don't like it, what do we do then? Or even if one of those things don't happen and the crisis is averted, what if the whole incident alienates characters in a way that displeases players? If Takeshi's incident ends up doing enough damage to Rukongai, for example, so that the Hayashi estate is damaged, that may forever alter his relationship with all Hayashi clan members. What if I want to have Shinji and Ikimi interact with Takeshi on good terms later on? Or if Horngeek wants Natsuko and/or Isumi to do the same?

Because by that same thought, we should demand that Zarah tells us Kujo's plans so we can approve them, because I REALLY DOUBT there won't be consequences from his actions.

And why not?

I'm planning on making a quick, mini-episode thread in a few days, should I get certain people on board with it. I plan on having it be set in the far past of Hueco Mundo.

I also plan on telling you guys pretty much every bit of major information on how the story will progress, even though it's all just history, so that, should anyone wish to come aboard the episode, we could modify the story to better incorporate the new character(s) and player(s), so that people won't have to object to major plot developments when it's almost too late.



I'm not saying that Innis and the other story writers for this Takeshi incident are incompetents, not by any means; I've seen Innis come up with some really cool characters and plan some really cool things, and if he trusts the other writers for this plot point enough to work with them, then for me that's a good omen for quality. It's just that, for group activities such as this, where decisions can affect lots and lots of people, I feel wary about not planning things out with everyone beforehand.

[KnightDisciple]

I will note that I extensively explained, more than once, what Satoshi was going to be doing, in the OOC. I did this before, or just as, I was taking IC actions.

People didn't object for a while, though there were rumbles about that making the game "too bright" or something. Then there were a couple points where people objected to the...speed...of things.

EDIT: Also...I'm pretty much in line with 13, overall.

[Frozen_Feet]

There's one thing I'd like to say about your post, 13.

Of course. But I also believe that plot makers ought to share at least the general outline of the plot with others to keep people informed.

Innis did share the general outline of the plot. Takeshi generously spewed it forth, nitty gritty details included. The point of contention here is he did it in IC, rather than OOC.

The idea of showing plot outlines beforehand in OOC is sound... but there isn't always an outline in the first place. At least for me, improvization is a big part of freeform. My characters have done and will do things of large impact pretty much on whim. I feel some others follow this way as well. Demanding plans after-the-fact, when there weren't any in the first place, is futile. Some of us make stuff while we go.