GitP/ChHa Server Thread IV: For Science. You Monster.

[Forbiddenwar]

1. Everyone plays engi
2. We release demomen, soldiers, and medics to take care of the engi infestation
3. We release pyros and heavies to clear the demomen and soldiers problem
4. We release scouts, spies, and snipers to kill the oversupply of heavies and pyros.
5. We release 5,000 pound man-eating gorillas to kill off the Scouts, spies, and snipers.
6. Everybody's happy.

Especially the medics who were never killed

[dyslexicfaser]

One thing that bugs me about it is that it allows the engineer to break the range constraints of the guns. Sentries are too accurate to make long range attacks bearable. I hope Valve will address that.

We'll have to see how it turns out on Thursday. It seems like a pretty interesting twist. Doubled firing speed and faster rockets, only takes 33% damage, and manual aiming might take care of spy problems: just shoot everyone even the slightest bit suspicious. Add in another engi for spot healing, and it becomes a monster.

Could be less accurate simply by dint of human error, tho.

Don't forget about the 5,000 pound man-eating gorillas.

Which the medics will turn to their side. Even gorillas appreciate mediguns, surely.

[surikesu]

Especially the medics who were never killed

Don't forget about the 5,000 pound man-eating gorillas.

[tyckspoon]

Could be less accurate simply by dint of human error, tho.

A lot will depend on how obvious it is that you are being targeted, I suspect. If you have to hold the Wrangler on the target and it's obvious where the targeting line is (visible laser beam or such) then it would be like approaching a Natascha heavy or a Pyro (albeit a Natascha heavy that does much, much more damage, which is a really discouraging idea.) A Wrangler'd sentry would also be much more vulnerable to being straight up bum-rushed by two or three opposing players, and the Engy could have his aim disrupted by all the usual things.. airblasts, Sandman balls, Spys casually walking up behind him while his attention is focused forward trying to snipe people with the Wrangler.. since his Sentry will no longer automatically cover him, y'see. And the Wrangler-shield means the Engy is going to be even more of a priority target than he already was.

[nightclaw]

http://www.teamfortress.com/engineerupdate/wrangdigan/

CLICKY!

[Phantom123]

TF2 is broken on mac (for all mac players, I think, if you're on OSX 10.6.4 or whatever it is now). Hope it's fixed by Engie update :(

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, I was about to QQ about it encouraging turtling, but in retrospect, it seems a fair trade. Personally, I'd reduce the CD time after swapping weapons, really.

Sentry can take more hits with Wrangler, but that means you aren't healing it, which makes it somewhat vulnerable. Not very vulnerable, since it can now take 5-7 rockets before being destroyed, but slightly vulnerable.
Also, its fire rate is seriously brutal, and likely to wipe out most enemies. This, in turn, is balanced by accuracy issues, since the engineer has to actually aim the sentry to hit the target.
Additionally, however, this means battle engis can be super-sneaky with sentry placement, and, while holding out the Wrangler, let their sentry not fire, until the enemy is unable to escape the firezone.

In fact, I think this is another Battle Engi update item. Turtles are likely better served by whacking their sentry, rather than manually aiming it, and might have difficulty targetting clever enemies. Then again, they might want it just to help defend their sentry against long range attacks.

[Byrnbot08]

I hypothesize that the Wrangler is ideal for Redfort attackers. Why?

Lvl 3 Sentry + Wrangler + Two Engies (loader/gunner) + Good spot = Death to anyone on the points.

Cannot wait. Build additional Wrenches.

[Worira]

I forsee one standard sentry and one wrangled watching over each other, with one engineer free to tank either, being a fairly standard setup.

[watsyurname529]

I forsee one standard sentry and one wrangled watching over each other, with one engineer free to tank either, being a fairly standard setup.

This is what's probably going to happen. The also major balancing factor of a Wrangle'd sentry is the fact that the engineer can't repair it and/or replenish it's ammo. Once it's out you have to de-wrangle it and then it's inactive for 3 seconds. All the time just about any class needs to kill it.

[KBF]

This is what's probably going to happen. The also major balancing factor of a Wrangle'd sentry is the fact that the engineer can't repair it and/or replenish it's ammo. Once it's out you have to de-wrangle it and then it's inactive for 3 seconds. All the time just about any class needs to kill it.

Which is why there's another engie with the wrench out.

I can't wait to start screwing with snipers with this thing. **** snipers, I can finally out-engie them.

[Surrealistik]

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1346248

Prepare for a sh**storm.

[Vitruviansquid]

Of course, the medics and 5,000 pound man-eating gorillas will freeze to death over winter, so it all works out.

[Sleverin]

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1346248

Prepare for a sh**storm.

With these new stats, I might just start playing on tf2lobby specifically...I already despise Engies enough, and really, it's nice to see them encourage possible team work, but still...that is kinda crazy. I need to see how this Wrangler thing works, since it seems to be liek the Equalizer: a straight upgrade with little consequences. I mean, the 3 second thing is nice, but the two major factors here are: teamwork, and how the darn thing aims. Is it first person? What gives it away that it gets shut down? There's some interesting factors here that may be an annoying problem...but maybe I'm just bitter cuz I can't stand engies and have been praying the engie update would never happen.

[potatocubed]

The wrangler on its own isn't bad - you'll be burning through SG ammo twice as quickly, remember, and if you whip out your wrench to reload it oops three seconds of being mostly defenceless. The problems are going to occur when a wrangler and non-wrangler engie team up.

EDIT: Oh, and the wrangler is definitely a straight upgrade because who uses the pistol, anyway?

[Dispozition]

EDIT: Oh, and the wrangler is definitely a straight upgrade because who uses the pistol, anyway?

Pistol engie cries at your blatant disregard for him )':

[Jahkaivah]

Pistol is dead useful for removing mines as the shotgun is too innaccurate.

Of course alot of the time when the mines start flying in it's high time to get out of the way and pull out your Frontier Justice.

As for those Wrangler stats, if a second Engineer gets involved, yeah we might have a problem

[Byrnbot08]

Gents. I love the idea of the Wrangler, but I sad face at the prospect of losing my pistol. No long range defence/harassment. I love the idea of the Frontier Justice, but I sad face at the prospect of losing my independance from my sentry.

I love the idea of a shiny wrench that turns people to gold, but I sad face at the lack of availability.

Edit: Two Engineers, Two Sentries. One engineer builds a normal sentry that controls itself, then helps the other set up and maintain a controlled sentry.#

So, we know that sentries have knockback. Normal sentry actually guards the point/objective. Secondary assists and helps block Ubers/prioritise larger threats/suppresses the enemy. Suddenly, Wrangler becomes the ultimate tool on defence.

[Arbitrarity]

EDIT: Oh, and the wrangler is definitely a straight upgrade because who uses the pistol, anyway?

You're doing it wrong. I've seen battle engis, and the ones who don't use the pistol, I can SEE it killing them. They get stuck in firefights, and keep reloading, one shell, shotgun, one shell, shotgun, which cuts the shotgun to 1 shot every 1.6 seconds or so. Comparatively, using pistol, they can maintain a rapid, consistent firerate, due to its clip-based reload.

[surikesu]

The pistol is a powerful asset to a combat engineer. If you're close, it does 20 damage per bullet, and there's enough in a clip to drop most classes. The shotgun has too slow of a reload to actually reload in battle, while the pistol is useful as a quick finisher.

[Mtg_player_zach]

I don't foresee the wrangler being a problem, if you are controlling the sentry how are you going to be moving around dodging rockets and bullets and stuff? You won't. You'll be a sitting duck. Any halfway competant sniper or spy would destroy it. Also sappers become much more useful. And you all assume it is going to wreak destruction as if people can aim/react quick enough to kill everything. Most people will suck with it, the good players will suck less but still be more effective with normal loadout.

[Valaqil]

I don't foresee the wrangler being a problem, if you are controlling the sentry how are you going to be moving around dodging rockets and bullets and stuff? You won't. You'll be a sitting duck. Any halfway competant sniper or spy would destroy it. Also sappers become much more useful. And you all assume it is going to wreak destruction as if people can aim/react quick enough to kill everything. Most people will suck with it, the good players will suck less but still be more effective with normal loadout.

I agree. This seems to be the answer to how a wrangled sentry is handled. I might also add that, if you don't notice an opponent, you're also stuck. You have the option to switch enemies, but I don't think many people will.

For example: A Heavy+Medic shows up at the corner. Wrangled sentry starts shooting Heavy. A Soldier shoots Engineer/Sentry. DH or Splash, that thing is probably going to fall. Esp. if the Engineer is the target.

[Surrealistik]

I don't foresee the wrangler being a problem, if you are controlling the sentry how are you going to be moving around dodging rockets and bullets and stuff? You won't. You'll be a sitting duck. Any halfway competant sniper or spy would destroy it. Also sappers become much more useful. And you all assume it is going to wreak destruction as if people can aim/react quick enough to kill everything. Most people will suck with it, the good players will suck less but still be more effective with normal loadout.

I sure as hell will be. I aim my weapon while moving and dodging competently all the time. If manual control enables you to circumvent maximum range limitations (or if the Sentry is placed such that a Sniper can't otherwise outrange it), Snipers lose much of their appeal as a counter. If manual control enables you to target disguised Spies, they become even less reliable as a response, leaving pretty much the Demoman as the only class that can even hope to consistently counter a Wrangler sentry being repaired. Of course, that itself will prove difficult, particularly if the Engineer is able to manually launch rockets to counter attempts to edge sticky.

I just hope there's some caveat that we don't know about which keeps this balanced, or they really did their homework with the playtesting this time (which they usually never do).

[ZeroNumerous]

I sure as hell will be. I aim my weapon while moving and dodging competently all the time.

That does not even vaguely resemble two separate perspectives in any way, shape or form.

If you control your sentry, chances are it's going to be from the sentry's perspective. Which means the engineer will be stationary, unless Valve is going to force players to learn to dodge without being able to see whom is firing at you unless you turn the sentry around.

[SciurusDoomus]

I sure as hell will be. I aim my weapon while moving and dodging competently all the time. If manual control enables you to circumvent maximum range limitations (or if the Sentry is placed such that a Sniper can't otherwise outrange it), Snipers lose much of their appeal as a counter. If manual control enables you to target disguised Spies, they become even less reliable as a response, leaving pretty much the Demoman as the only class that can even hope to consistently counter a Wrangler sentry being repaired. Of course, that itself will prove difficult, particularly if the Engineer is able to manually launch rockets to counter attempts to edge sticky.

I just hope there's some caveat that we don't know about which keeps this balanced, or they really did their homework with the playtesting this time (which they usually never do).

In argument for Snipers, Engies will probably be looking for bigger threats like Demomen or Soldiers or Spies, and not looking in the new dark corners and nests that Snipers will undoubtedly find and exploit. Snipers may become more powerful now that the Sentry can be manually controlled since new spots can always be staked out to take out sentries.

[potatocubed]

If you control your sentry, chances are it's going to be from the sentry's perspective. Which means the engineer will be stationary, unless Valve is going to force players to learn to dodge without being able to see whom is firing at you unless you turn the sentry around.

I suspect that the way it's going to work is that you shoot the wrangler like a gun, and the sentry attacks wherever the wrangler hits. This has advantages and disadvantages.

But really, we don't know. Until the update actually lands the precise mechanisms behind this upgrade remain a mystery.

[ZeroNumerous]

This has advantages and disadvantages.

Namely that killing yourself will be hilariously easy.

[SciurusDoomus]

Namely that killing yourself will be hilariously easy.

A new advantage to Spies would to allow them to use the Wrangler once or twice a life if they're disguised as that Engineer...

*evil laugh*

[onasuma]

A new advantage to Spies would to allow them to use the Wrangler once or twice a life if they're disguised as that Engineer...

*evil laugh*

Sapper replacement much?

[Worira]

That does not even vaguely resemble two separate perspectives in any way, shape or form.

If you control your sentry, chances are it's going to be from the sentry's perspective. Which means the engineer will be stationary, unless Valve is going to force players to learn to dodge without being able to see whom is firing at you unless you turn the sentry around.

If that does turn out to be the case, have fun trying to kill me in spawn.