Relationship Woes and Advice: A Sleepless Fortnight

[Phaedra]

Is there anyone on earth who doesn't know about statutory rape laws? That's a serious question. I would be shocked if someone's response to consent laws was "Really? I didn't know that!" It's like warning someone that drinking and driving is illegal.

Your faith in people's legal knowledge is endearing. But really, I meant more knowing the consequences legally than knowing the law, though I admit it was phrased poorly in that respect.

[Pyrian]

DATING DOES NOT EQUAL SEX. THEY ARE NOT SYNONYMS.
</rant>

Sure, but we're specifically invoking the worst case scenario, here.

Is there anyone on earth who doesn't know about statutory rape laws?

Perhaps the person who imagined that the worst case scenario was a simple "no".

As far as I know there are no laws against dating someone who's younger than you.

You don't have to go all the way to invoke sex-crime laws. Indeed, you barely have to go anywhere at all. Remember that a minor cannot give consent. In the eyes of the law, just kissing a minor is equivalent to grabbing a random unwilling stranger in a bar and inflicting the same upon them against their struggles.

In my view, if you're even going to call the activity "dating" rather than "hanging out with a friend" you're probably crossing the line.

(I know there are people on this forum who "date" people they've never even met in person. On the other hand, I've held hands, snuggled, and literally platonically slept with "just friends". At the end of the day, we're all free to refer to our relationships as we please, but to my own semantics, if there's no physical relationship there's no romantic relationship.)

[Eadin]

Why are we talking about them having sex when they're not even dating yet?
One problem at the time , folks
I do agree on the"become friends first" thing.

[Pyrian]

Why are we talking about them having sex when they're not even dating yet?

Expecting them to have no physically romantic contact whatsoever for over two years of dating is an unreasonable expecation that is frequently unmet in the real world. (And I'm not talking about sex specifically, I'm talking about any contact beyond the merely friendly.) Attempting it seems unwise. Risking it seems unwise. Of course, the exact legal ramifications vary substantially by locale, so I may be talking about nothing at all.

I do agree on the"become friends first" thing.

Often a good idea.

[Eadin]

He's 15 right? that means one more year here in Belgium. And even if they didn't wait nobody would care unless he actually said something about not wanting it and stuff

[Pheehelm]

In the eyes of the law, just kissing a minor is equivalent to grabbing a random unwilling stranger in a bar and inflicting the same upon them against their struggles.

Hmm? I haven't heard this before. I was under the impression the laws on consent were limited to sexual activity.

At the end of the day, we're all free to refer to our relationships as we please, but to my own semantics, if there's no physical relationship there's no romantic relationship.

Out of curiosity, what, to your own semantics, marks the difference between a romantic relationship and a friends with benefits involvement?

[ForzaFiori]

In the eyes of the law, just kissing a minor is equivalent to grabbing a random unwilling stranger in a bar and inflicting the same upon them against their struggles.

However, the law also does not charge anyone for any form or RAPE unless some form of sexual intercourse was involved (Technically, I think it is the use of unwanted force to insert something into someone else's body, typicially with the "something" being male genitalia.) This includes charges of statutory rape. Kissing is not considered rape in any form or fashion. getting to second base, maybe, depending on the court. third definitely.

my step-sister was involved in a statutory rape case (my step mother charged her boyfriend with it) in order to cause them to break up. Trust me, if it could have been done to them for just kissing, they would have.

[Iruka]

The girl who turned me down yesterday (I should mention that the actual asking was rather rushed and I don't leave out much when I summarize it with "Wanna date?" - "Erm, no." - "K, bye.") followed up with an email that went approximately like that:

Hi Iruka,

I can't leave it at that. We studied together for 4 years and it can't end like that. I want to be able to talk to you if/when we meet again.
I'm sorry if the answer was hard, but this really took me by surprise.
That doesn't change the facts, I don't think anything could come from that and so I don't want a date.
I hope you can enjoy your holidays anyway,

$girl

I think she wanted to be nice here, but after reading it I couldn't shake the feeling that I got blamed for something here, without really knowing for what.

I want to answer on that but I don't exactly know what to include. I want to tell her that she should not be too concerned about it, a straight "No, wouldn't work." was a lot better than lame excuses (hard answers would have been "What, I thought you were gay?!" or loud laughter).

I guess telling her how the email made me feel is rather useless, isn't it? I don't think she'll get some great learning effect from that and will more likely just feel bad or angry at me.
Dunno, maybe something about how I agree in hindsight that we wouldn't have been a very good match (which is true) but that this is hard to realise when high on hormones because of a woman who has so many things I like about her?

[Pyrian]

^ I'd go for as simple as possible. Just an "We're still cool, thanks for clarifying" will probably go a long way to setting her at ease.

He's 15 right? that means one more year here in Belgium. And even if they didn't wait nobody would care unless he actually said something about not wanting it and stuff

Again, I think it comes down to locale. Here in California, you're a minor until 18, and the consequences can be severe for even mild fooling around.

Hmm? I haven't heard this before. I was under the impression the laws on consent were limited to sexual activity.

Sure, but "sexual activity" is wide, not narrow.

Out of curiosity, what, to your own semantics, marks the difference between a romantic relationship and a friends with benefits involvement?

Commitment and/or future plans. Basically, a FwB is a physically intimate relationship with no commitments to either exclusivity, permanence, or breeding.

On the subject, let me amend my previous statement a little bit. I'm willing to recognize a platonic but exclusive relationship as "romantic" but I absolutely refuse to engage in such a thing myself, which is a little different from how I made it sound in my last post. I don't think I could distinguish a platonic yet uncommitted "relationship" from a friendship, however. I mean, if I did, I'd have to say I have several of them, really.

However, the law also does not charge anyone for any form or RAPE unless some form of sexual intercourse was involved...

Agreed, but "sexual assault" is enough to get people on permanent public lists here in California.

Kissing is not considered rape in any form or fashion.

Depending on the specifics you can get into sexual assault charges based on "mere" kissing. A peck on the cheek, no. I picked kissing precisely because it's about the mildest example I could reasonably use, but the point I was trying to make is that depending on where he lives, how far they might go, and their exact ages, she could potentially be facing a legal minefield.

[Odentin]

Iruka: When is the next time you'll see her and be able to talk?

[MountainKing]

Is there anyone on earth who doesn't know about statutory rape laws? That's a serious question. I would be shocked if someone's response to consent laws was "Really? I didn't know that!" It's like warning someone that drinking and driving is illegal.

After eight years of working the good ol' Internet help desk, I'm not surprised by anything that I hear that happens to be stupid. That being said, I've also heard BOTH of those things, in conversations.

[Iruka]

Iruka: When is the next time you'll see her and be able to talk?

I won't see her for quite a while. We're both almost finished with university. I'll work for half a year in a town two hours away while she starts tackling the final exams. During this time a meeting could only happen at a party of some mutual friend, as long as it's on a weekend. And those parties are rather scarce.

[Odentin]

Yeah, I'd say an appropriate response would be along the lines of, "No worries, it's cool. No hard feelings."

Even if it's not entirely true, it'll help keep things friendly between you two next time you see each other, whenever that happens to be...

[Pheehelm]

Again, I think it comes down to locale. Here in California, you're a minor until 18, and the consequences can be severe for even mild fooling around.

And since most American television writers are based in California, and national child pornography laws treat eighteen as the defining point, popular culture holds eighteen to be the national age of consent.

Sure, but "sexual activity" is wide, not narrow.

I guess I'd have to see the laws specifying kissing as sexual activity. In particular I'm remembering a prominent American politician who took advantage of the legal definition of "sexual relations" specifying genital contact. I'd elaborate, but I'm not sure which board rule I'd end up breaking first.

On the subject, let me amend my previous statement a little bit. I'm willing to recognize a platonic but exclusive relationship as "romantic" but I absolutely refuse to engage in such a thing myself, which is a little different from how I made it sound in my last post.

Fair enough. I've known happily married couples who never so much as kissed before their wedding, so I'm skeptical of any definition of romance that requires physical activity.

[xPANCAKEx]

Absolute Bollocks, in my opinion.

It is definitely possible, and isn't that much different to a 15 girl and 18 guy - hell, I was 14-17 with me and my ex, which isn't much different - and that lasted for 2 and a bit years. I know other relationships of greater gaps, both with girls being older and guys being older. Go for it. Worst that can happen is that she says no.

i never said it was impossible, just highly unlikely and uncommon

[MeatShield#236]

Like people have said: 15 year-olds dating 18 year-olds is uncommon, but it all depends on the maturity of those involved. In any case, good luck.

*Goes back to lurking*

[Serpentine]

Masters are two years in the US? Everything takes so much longer over there. How do you fund it all?!

I think that in Australia Honours is (meant to be) 1 year, Masters 2 years (but not very sure), and PhD 3 years. Degrees last anywhere between 3 and 6 years full-time. We fund it by 1. having nice parents, 2. begging to Centrelink, and/or 3. getting any job you can at the potential sacrifice of your studies, and end up disproportionately below the poverty line. Some reforms seem to be making Centrelink money a bit easier to get.

The girl who turned me down yesterday (I should mention that the actual asking was rather rushed and I don't leave out much when I summarize it with "Wanna date?" - "Erm, no." - "K, bye.") followed up with an email that went approximately like that:
I think she wanted to be nice here, but after reading it I couldn't shake the feeling that I got blamed for something here, without really knowing for what.
I want to answer on that but I don't exactly know what to include. I want to tell her that she should not be too concerned about it, a straight "No, wouldn't work." was a lot better than lame excuses (hard answers would have been "What, I thought you were gay?!" or loud laughter).
I guess telling her how the email made me feel is rather useless, isn't it? I don't think she'll get some great learning effect from that and will more likely just feel bad or angry at me.
Dunno, maybe something about how I agree in hindsight that we wouldn't have been a very good match (which is true) but that this is hard to realise when high on hormones because of a woman who has so many things I like about her?

I'm not seeing any "blame" there. I think it's purely that she's overthinking it - I'd do that, too. She might be thinking, "he asked me on a date... Dates are Big Deals... That means he really, really, really likes me. Oh noes I've probably broked his poor heart! However will I be able to look him in the eye again?" She doesn't want it to be a dint in your relationship, so she's scrambling to make it up with you and make it not-weird (in the process potentially making it even more weird).
Just send her a friendly "Hey, don't worry about it. I can't say I'm not disappointed - you're a great gal - but I'm a big boy and I'll survive. Know of any parties coming up? Good luck with your exams!"
It doesn't hurt to massage her ego a touch

[Superglucose]

Sure, but "sexual activity" is wide, not narrow.

The list is actually fairly narrow in the grand scheme of things. As long as you stay out of the areas that are intentionally covered up you're golden. And while you might not be able to last a year or three without it, I know a very large number of people who are perfectly ok with not being involved in that sort of activity.

Depending on the specifics you can get into sexual assault charges based on "mere" kissing.

Yes, but sexual assault charges are not based in age, so warning people about age won't protect them from sexual assault charges. It's sad but true that Serpentine, if she lived in CA, could get me arrested for felony sexual assault if she liked simply because I think I told her I liked her hair in the "You" thread. Probably even convicted if she cried enough.

^^
Did that get across the proper level of "jaded" I was hoping for?

The california laws specifically deal with "corrupting" (i.e. non PnV sexual contact) a minor as well as actual intercourse. Stupid, stupid, STUPID terminology but that's how it goes. Welcome to the 1890s, ladies and gentlegerms.

[xPANCAKEx]

reminder gals and guys: THE INTERNET IS NOT A LAWYER

[Coidzor]

+1 to the Pancake Golem/Demon.

Though, I must admit, I'm kinda confused and horrified we're discussing the R word so much all of a sudden. I'm disappointed in you, RWA.

[Odentin]

Though, I must admit, I'm kinda confused and horrified we're discussing the R word so much all of a sudden. I'm disappointed in you, RWA.

Agreed. This is a thread to help people with relationship issues, not debate the wording of Statutory laws.

[Coidzor]

So, that said...

How annoyed should I be at my friend for uncharacteristically asking out the girl I was flirting with quite... intensely while I was sitting 5 feet away from him when he met her through answering her IMing me through facebook for me?

Like, on a scale from one to ten.

Also, how proud of him should I be for finally asking a girl out, like, at all, without either her getting tired of it and doing it herself or my having to beat him to do it?

Again, on a scale from one to ten.

And should I have an intervention for him if a situation progresses here to a third instance so I can't just write it off as flukes?

Spoiler

Show

Because this is the second time he's gone after a girl after I have... The first is now his most recent ex and is my... 2nd most recent ex. Granted, she was a crazy lesbian who thought/lied that she was bisexual when she asked me to date her formally after I took her out to dinner a couple of times and agreed to be her escort/date to her prom.

(Yes, I know, I was dumb for entertaining a highschooler at all, even though I met her when we were both in middleschool, but hey, I got group-rate dance lessons out of it at least.). I was ok if a bit weirded out by them hitting it off so well, less ok when I found out she was going behind my back to tell him about all of her woes, mostly because I found it silly of her to want to date me if she wasn't going to use me properly, but, eh.

Anyway, I had to beat both of their asses to start dating and she still hates me for it even though she quite enjoyed dating him up until the last month they were dating when she started avoiding him and being all reclusive, but, hey, you know it's doomed when the girl openly reminds/tells the guy that she's a lesbian while she's dating him. *facepalm*

Uh... where was I? Oh yeah, so he went after my ex while she was still dating me but then couldn't work up the cojones to actually ask her out for another month or two, adding or subtracting half a month or so. Was weird, to say the least.

Then this thing. I think it's just me being paranoid right now, but, if it happens again, should I actually indulge my paranoia?

[rakkoon]

If he does it for a third time, I'd have a serious talk with him.
That's not healthy.
I know a guy who stole a girlfriend from a friend.
Then cheated on that girl with the friend's next girlfriend.
Needless to say they don't talk anymore...

[Odentin]

Woah...

How annoyed should I be at my friend for uncharacteristically asking out the girl I was flirting with quite... intensely while I was sitting 5 feet away from him when he met her through answering her IMing me through facebook for me?

Um, a little convoluted there, but let's see. It's fairly annoying when a friend goes after someone you've been going after. I think. I'd say express your annoyance with him.

And to answer your question a little more solidly: No one can tell you how annoyed to be. You have the right to be annoyed, though, definitely.

Also, how proud of him should I be for finally asking a girl out, like, at all, without either her getting tired of it and doing it herself or my having to beat him to do it?

Fairly proud. 6-7~ish.

And should I have an intervention for him? Because if he does this a third time where he starts going after a girl I show signs of being interested in? Because he started flirting with my most recent formal ex and started getting her talking to him about how she was doing instead of me just before her rampant lesbianism she was concealing from me came to a head and she dumped me for returning a kiss she instigated because she's also crazier than a nest of cuckoos, and then the two idiots only started dating after I prodded the bastards to stop flirting with one another endlessly, and especially not on my bloody facebook page... Well, I'm going to have to be suspicious.

Woah, real convoluted there. It's called punctuation. Use it.

Anyways, from what I can gather, there's a runnign trend here, and you need to bring it up with him, calmly, before you explode on him. Explain why it annoys you and ask him calmly to refrain, if possible. If he's going for sloppy seconds, on the other hand, why bother stopping him?

[Coidzor]

Woah, real convoluted there. It's called punctuation. Use it.

The edit better?

[Superglucose]

So there is this HELLA fine girl at work who's hair ranges from awesome(curly) to awesome(straight).

Maybe I caught a wave today? I dunno.

[Coidzor]

So there is this HELLA fine girl at work who's hair ranges from awesome(curly) to awesome(straight).

Maybe I caught a wave today? I dunno.

Um. Hair puns hurt, Supa. x.x

[Odentin]

The edit better?

Much.

Ok, if he tried to steal your GF from you, then you need to have a chat...

Super: So what's she like? Despite having incredible hair?

[Superglucose]

Well, she's really nice, and has a decent sense of humor. I mean you'd have to to work at that store She doesn't work in my department so I don't really know her all that well (and it also means she doesn't get into the banter between us and the auto techs) but she's very cute.

I guess my next goal is to invite her to some group event (probably D&D, 'cause I'm nerdy like that) outside work to hang out with her.

[Odentin]

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger! Inviting women that aren't nerds to D&D games is like signing your own death sentence!

Then again, if she IS a nerd, then go right ahead!