Optimize or Die, Playgrounders! [E6 Balor Challenge Thread]

[dextercorvia]

No, you are capable of casting a 3rd level spell, which you are capable of Heightening to 10th level, if you expend a bunch of other abilities that have nothing to do with casting that 3rd level spell.

I won't derail AP's thread with another comment about this unless he wishes me to defend it further for the build. However this is generally accepted optimization. Your argument can be made about Earth Spell, or Sanctum, or Improved Krau as well, and yet no one (not even you earlier) does. That is the sign that either you have made a brand new discovery, or your argument is weak. Naenhoon Heighten works if the rest of it does, and as I said before it is generally accepted to be cheesy, but sufficient.

[Another_Poet]

Hey, AP, were you going to update my entry up to "looks complete", since I've dealt with the death throes question, or is there something else I need to do?

Fixed.

As for luring, sure you can try to lure him out or whatever. Absolutely. Tell him you have a Portable Hole and a Bag of Holding. Whatever works.

Cool, that should make for more interesting scenarios.

[Douglas]

No, you are capable of casting a 3rd level spell, which you are capable of Heightening to 10th level, if you expend a bunch of other abilities that have nothing to do with casting that 3rd level spell.

Ah, but a spell Heightened to 10th level is, in every way, a 10th level spell. And, regardless of the spell slot's level, the spell itself is 10th level and you are capable of casting it - and Extra Spell doesn't say a thing about spell slots, only about the ability to cast spells. This is pretty cut and dried RAW. Very cheesy, broken, and not likely to be allowed in most games, but clear RAW.

[Lhurgyof]

Diplomancer:
RANKS: 5+level (cap feat): +11
Charisma (18+2 cap feat +6 items): +8
Racial: +2
Skill Focus: +3
Negotiator: +2
Savvy Rogue (take 12): +12
Skill Shard, +10: +10
Circlet of Persuasion: +3
Aid another from a Sharn: +3
Synergies: +6

So we have a 60 diplomacy check at all times. Balor doesn't stand a chance when he would either help (or after a little more persuasion) give his life for said rogue.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

Fanatic is in the Epic Level Handbook.

EDIT: Can't dip into ranger if I want to take Savvy rogue.

[Eronai_Jantig]

What Cap feat? Is there a feat that allows more ranks in a skill than normal? Because if so I'd like to know not just for this build, but for future play.

[Lhurgyof]

What Cap feat? Is there a feat that allows more ranks in a skill than normal? Because if so I'd like to know not just for this build, but for future play.

Skill Beyond Your Years
Prerequisite: Level 6
Pick a skill. Your max ranks rise from Level+3 to Level +5.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general...nside-d-d.html

[Eronai_Jantig]

I really hate those damn e6 feats :P second time I've missed one. Greenbound summoning+Green ear here I come.

[Malakar]

Ah, but a spell Heightened to 10th level is, in every way, a 10th level spell. And, regardless of the spell slot's level, the spell itself is 10th level and you are capable of casting it - and Extra Spell doesn't say a thing about spell slots, only about the ability to cast spells. This is pretty cut and dried RAW. Very cheesy, broken, and not likely to be allowed in most games, but clear RAW.

Yes, and so if he gains the feat the exact second he casts the spell, you might be able to argue that he can in fact use the fact that at that second he is capable of casting a level 10 spell to qualify for a 9th level slot.

On the other hand, if he is obtaining the feat at any other time than the very instant he is casting the spell, there is no question that he is not capable of casting a 10th level spell. He is capable of casting a 3rd level spell (or 5th if sanctum earth spell).

I'm not arguing that heighten doesn't increase the spell level. I'm arguing that the ability to cast a third level spell and then heighten it after casting is not the same as the ability to cast a 10th level spell.

Can an Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 with a spellcraft modifier of +NI cast spells of level NI/3? No, because the ability to cast a level 4 spell and then heighten it after it is cast at level 4 is not sufficient to be counted as able to cast a level 40 spell.

I won't derail AP's thread with another comment about this unless he wishes me to defend it further for the build. However this is generally accepted optimization. Your argument can be made about Earth Spell, or Sanctum, or Improved Krau as well, and yet no one (not even you earlier) does. That is the sign that either you have made a brand new discovery, or your argument is weak. Naenhoon Heighten works if the rest of it does, and as I said before it is generally accepted to be cheesy, but sufficient.

Alternatively, I may not have felt like arguing earlier, because it doesn't matter, and I just happen to have more free time right now.

But in fact, Sanctum and Earth spell don't just modify the spell as it is cast, the modify the prepared spell, so apply as well to feat qualifications. I don't know about Improved Krau, because I do not know the wording of that ability.

[Eronai_Jantig]

Actually I think your completely backwords, a sanctum spell regardless of where it is prepared, is prepared as the normal spell, earning it's +0, only after it's cast can it be determined if (in this case) the spell is 10th level, or 8th level, the spell prepared would be considered 9th, because heighten actually does increase the level of the spell.

[Douglas]

Yes, and so if he gains the feat the exact second he casts the spell, you might be able to argue that he can in fact use the fact that at that second he is capable of casting a level 10 spell to qualify for a 9th level slot.

That seems as silly to me as requiring that a (no cheese at all) level 3 wizard must be casting a level 2 spell at the exact moment he gains a feat in order to select Extra Spell for a level 1 slot.

On the other hand, if he is obtaining the feat at any other time than the very instant he is casting the spell, there is no question that he is not capable of casting a 10th level spell. He is capable of casting a 3rd level spell (or 5th if sanctum earth spell).

Taking into account all the abilities he personally has, is he at any given moment and assuming a fully rested state able to cast a spell that is 10th level? If so, then he is able to cast a 10th level spell.

I'm not arguing that heighten doesn't increase the spell level. I'm arguing that the ability to cast a third level spell and then heighten it after casting is not the same as the ability to cast a 10th level spell.

Can an Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 with a spellcraft modifier of +NI cast spells of level NI/3? No, because the ability to cast a level 4 spell and then heighten it after it is cast at level 4 is not sufficient to be counted as able to cast a level 40 spell.

An Incantatrix using Metamagic Effect would, indeed, be casting a 3rd (or whatever) level spell and then Heightening it after the fact. This would not qualify.

Someone with an Incantatrix ally using Cooperative Metamagic for him would also not qualify because it depends on an extra character helping him out.

Naenhoon, however, is applied during the casting, not after the fact, and from the character's own abilities.

Alternatively, I may not have felt like arguing earlier, because it doesn't matter, and I just happen to have more free time right now.

But in fact, Sanctum and Earth spell don't just modify the spell as it is cast, the modify the prepared spell, so apply as well to feat qualifications. I don't know about Improved Krau, because I do not know the wording of that ability.

It seems to me that your logic would also mean a Sorcerer with Sanctum Spell or Earth Spell would not count as being able to cast higher level spells unless he also took Arcane Preparation, because the potential adjustment from those feats would not be applied until the moment of casting since the Sorcerer is casting spontaneously. This strikes me as patently absurd.

Naenhoon (full text is on page 54 of Races of Destiny, btw) is applied during casting, just as any metamagics a Sorcerer normally uses are.

[JeminiZero]

JeminiZero's "Guardian of Wings"
Status: Pending; As has been pointed out on these forums before you are not allowed to voluntarily fail a caster level check such as a dispel check (the only roll that is specified you may voluntarily fail by RAW is a saving throw) so how do you guarantee detonation of the runes package?

I think I already wrote instructions for that somewhere in the Arcanist Build section. Essentially, use Arcane Mastery to take 10 to dispel checks. While not permitted to autofail dispel, you can voluntarily lower the caster level to 5 (minimum for level 3 spells) and take 10 for a total of 15, which automatically fails against level 7 explosive runes (Dispel DC 18).

[Tyndmyr]

Point buy for this? Im assuming 28, but want to be sure.

Busy statting up actual sheets for the competition, so those little details like skill ranks, spells known/prepared, etc are all taken care of.

[dextercorvia]

Point buy for this? Im assuming 28, but want to be sure.

Busy statting up actual sheets for the competition, so those little details like skill ranks, spells known/prepared, etc are all taken care of.

I assumed 32, but I can adjust it if needed. Just drop a couple of points out of Charisma, and switch an Extra Slot for Extra Turning to be safe.

[Malakar]

you can voluntarily lower the caster level

Do you have a citation for this?

[senrath]

Do you have a citation for this?

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. "

[Hurlbut]

Diplomancer:
RANKS: 5+level (cap feat): +11
Charisma (18+2 racial+2 cap feat +6 items): +9
Skill Focus: +3
Negotiator: +2
Savvy Rogue (take 12): +12
Skill Shard, +10: +10
Circlet of Persuasion: +3
Aid another from a Sharn: +3
Synergies: +6

So we have a 59 diplomacy check at all times. Balor doesn't stand a chance when he would either help (or after a little more persuasion) give his life for said rogue.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm

Fanatic is in the Epic Level Handbook.

EDIT: Can't dip into ranger if I want to take Savvy rogue.

You have to bear in mind a balor won't do something that is completely against his nature. There are also circumstance bonuses/penalties.

[Eronai_Jantig]

Caster Level
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

Here ya go

[JeminiZero]

Do you have a citation for this?

"You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. "

From this page.

I would note that the voluntary lowering of caster level isn't even necessary. Since if my Arcanist casts at normal CL 6 (take 10 for total of 16), he still autofails against dispel DC of 18 (since I boosted the caster level of Explosive Runes through an easily available level 3 spell).

Edit: Wow, double ninja'ed. I'm really losing my touch.

[Lhurgyof]

You have to bear in mind a balor won't do something that is completely against his nature. There are also circumstance bonuses/penalties.

Indeed, but addition of the Epic level Handbook includes being able to get someone to be "Fanatic". So, they would, by RAW give their life for you.

Plus, a 59 check at will, is enough to **** up that balor, just spend some time talking to it.

Also, this is all the stuff that I could add to it just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more stuff that can boost up that delicious diplomacy check.

[Douglas]

Indeed, but addition of the Epic level Handbook includes being able to get someone to be "Fanatic". So, they would, by RAW give their life for you.

True, but you are rather far short of the DC to convert to that from an initial "Hostile" attitude, and Diplomacy usually does not allow retries.

Additionally, "Fanatic" is treated as a mind-affecting enchantment (and it most definitely grants some mental control over the subject), and would thus be blocked by the Unholy Aura that the book tactics list as a Balor's normal pre-combat action.

[Lhurgyof]

True, but you are rather far short of the DC to convert to that from an initial "Hostile" attitude, and Diplomacy usually does not allow retries.

Well, it's DC 50 to get to helpful. So make friends with the Balor, grow real close together, and after a while, perhaps a long while, try talking to him again.
RAW is real fuzzy on retrying Diplomacy, so I guess it's up to Another Poet.

Either way, I'm naming my Diplomancer Dr. Phil.
Oh, and if we drop the race for cha for half-elf, we get it up to 60.

[dextercorvia]

Well, it's DC 50 to get to helpful. So make friends with the Balor, grow real close together, and after a while, perhaps a long while, try talking to him again.
RAW is real fuzzy on retrying Diplomacy, so I guess it's up to Another Poet.

Either way, I'm naming my Diplomancer Dr. Phil.
Oh, and if we drop the race for cha for half-elf, we get it up to 60.

How are you getting Savvy Rogue without Rogue 10? Using the E6 feat, you may only take 10. Also, did you forget about the -10 penalty for rushing? I didn't see any ability that would allow you to avoid that.

[Tyndmyr]

I assumed 32, but I can adjust it if needed. Just drop a couple of points out of Charisma, and switch an Extra Slot for Extra Turning to be safe.

Oddly enough, going up to 32 doesn't matter much for me. A touch higher reflex and will saves. It's nice, but I don't see it mattering all that much.

[dextercorvia]

Oddly enough, going up to 32 doesn't matter much for me. A touch higher reflex and will saves. It's nice, but I don't see it mattering all that much.

For me either. It's really the 35 or so feats that does it for me. I just assumed it, since it's what I'm used to.

[Lhurgyof]

How are you getting Savvy Rogue without Rogue 10? Using the E6 feat, you may only take 10. Also, did you forget about the -10 penalty for rushing? I didn't see any ability that would allow you to avoid that.

Ah, ok. I'll just have to settle with a 58 diplomacy check for now, unless I find some more cheese.
And no need to rush, once the talkin' get's starting, the rest of the party can keep the balor away from me.

[awa]

I think combat would add some large penalties to the check and i thought you needed to kill the balor to win.

edit how are they going to keep the balor away from you for an e6 party surviving even a single round can be tough.

[Lhurgyof]

Spend most of the WBL on hired Ogre Magi. xD

[Hurlbut]

Spend most of the WBL on hired Ogre Magi. xD

and what abilities would help it against a Balor? Doesn't balor have a spell or ability to see through invisibility?

[Eronai_Jantig]

True Seeing

[Lhurgyof]

Why would they need to be invisible?
Just hire, like 100 of them, and have them make an ogre mage-wall.