[3.5]Improved monster classes(2.0):adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[Mystic Muse]

the idea is to make something where PrCing out isn't an obvious choice, but still a viable choice. It's a balance somewhere between making PrCing out the only good choice and making PrCing out an idiotic choice.

I agree with Gorgondantess. As written, it would be better to PRC out with several of the dragons. I also don't see the benefit to taking one of the true dragons (Short of alternate form) to one of the planar dragons. The Pyroclastic for example, as written seems to me to be better in almost every way than the red dragon. I realize that we're supposed to cut out the spellcasting (Although, I'd prefer to leave it in and take the SLAs and some of the abilities out.) but until we do, the Pyroclastic just seems plain stronger than the red dragon to me.

Also, I agree with Gorgon on the gnoll flind issue if what he says is true.

[Oslecamo]

Pyroclastic dragon From Draconomicon

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HD: d12
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Pyroclastic Body, Produce Flame, +1 Str
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Pyroclastic Breath,
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense 60 feet, Sound Burst
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Wings, +10 Speed +1 Con
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Growth, Magma Body
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Pyrotechnics, Shatter, +1 Cha
7| +7| +5| +2| +5| Destruction Breath, See no Evil
8| +8| +6| +2| +6| Wall of Fire, Improved Sunder
9| +9| +6|+3 |+6| Growth, Tail Slap, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | Shout, Wall of Stone, +1 Charisma
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Pyroclastic Scales, Destruction Body, +10 Speed
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 |Growth, Frightful presence, Crush, +1 Str, +1 Con
13| +13| +8| +4| +8| Hear No Evil, Gehenna Sunder, +1 Cha
14| +14 | +9| +4| +9| Power Word Stun, Volcano +1 Str, +1 Con
15| +15 | +9| +5| +9| Fire Storm, Pyroclastic Magic
16| +16 | +10| +5| +10| Incendiary Cloud, Pyroclastic Assault, +1 Cha
17| +17| +10| +5| +10|Meteor Swarm, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, +1 Cha
18| +18| +11| +6| +11| Growth, Tail Sweep, +1 Str, +1 Con
19| +19 | +11| +6| +11|Immobile, +1 Str, +1 Con, +1 Cha
20| +20| +12| +6| +12|Magma Body, Eruption
[/table]

6 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, appraise, bluff, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.


Proficiencies: a Pyroclastic dragon isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons

Pyroclastic BodyThe Pyroclastic dragon loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Dragon traits, Bite 1d8 damage, 2 claws for 1d6 damage each, a 40 foot base land speed and medium size, plus a climb and burrow speed equal to half his land speed each. The Pyroclastic dragon has wings but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for anything a human hand could do.

The Pyroclastic dragon also gets a natural armor bonus equal to 1+Constitution modifier. Whenever the Pyroclastic dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

The Pyroclastic dragon has resistance to Sonic damage equal to its total hit dice. In addition to this, The Pyroclastic dragon has complete immunity to mundane fire and resistance to magical fire equal to its total hit dice.

Pyroclastic Magic:Whenever a spell appears at the Pyroclastic Dragon table the pyroclastic dragon gains it as a SLA useable a certain number of times per day. Save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod.

Level 1: Produce Flame 1/day per HD

Level 3: Sound Burst 1/day per HD

Level 6: Pyrotechnics and Shatter 1/day per 2 HD each

Level 8: Wall of Fire 1/day per 2 HD

Level 10:Shout, Wall of Stone, 1/day per 2 HD each

Level 14: Power Word, Stun, 1/day per 3 HD

Level 15:Fire Storm, 1/day per 4 HD

Level 16:Incendiary Cloud, 1/day per 5 HD

Level 17:Meteor Swarm, 1/day per 6 HD

Ability Increase: The pyroclastic dragon gains the following bonus at the following levels

{table]Level | Ability Bonus
1 | +1 Str
4| +1 Con
6| +1 Cha
9|+1 Strength, +1 Constitution
10|+1 Charisma
12| +1 Str, +1 Con
13| +1 Cha
14| +1 Str, +1 Con
16| +1 Cha
17| +1 Strength, +1 Constitution, +1 Cha
18| +1 Str, +1 Con
19| +1 Str, +1 Con, +1 Cha
[/table]
For a total of +7 Str, +7 Con and +6 Cha at 20th level.

Keen Senses: At second level, the Pyroclastic dragon's senses become far stronger. The Pyroclastic dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet

Pyroclastic Breath: At second level the Pyroclastic dragon gains a breath weapon. The breath weapon is a 30 foot cone dealing 1d6 damage/HD, half fire and half sonic damage, with a reflex save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Constitution modifier for half an takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. The cone increases by 5 feet for every extra hit die the dragon gains.

Blindsense: At third level the dragon gains Blindsense as the normal ability, range 60 feet.

Wings: At 4th level The Pyroclastic dragon becomes able to fly at the speed of 10 feet per HD, with poor maneuverability. The maneuverability doesn't increase naturally, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable). Each wing can also be now used to deliver a natural attack dealing 1d4 damage.

Speed Increase: At 4th and again at 11th level the pyroclastic dragon gains +10 foot to his base speed.

Growth:At 5th level the Dragon grows to large size. At 12th he grows to huge and at 18th he grows to Gargantuan. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.


Tail Slap:At fifth level The Pyroclastic dragon can now make a tail slap attack dealing 1d8 damage(already taking in account large size).


Magma Body: At 5th level, the Pyroclastic dragon body itself starts to change into magma. It gains light fortification and a bonus on saves against poison, stun and polymorph effects equal to his HD.

Destruction Breath: line 130 feet, Creatures hit are reduced to ash unless they suceed on a Fort save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier, 1d4 turns recharge time. Line increases by 10 feets with each extra HD the player takes from here.

See No Evil - The Pyroclastic Dragon is used to dwelling amid exploding geysers of magma. At 7th level, the middling effects of spells such as Pyrotechnics and Glitterdust can simply be shrugged off. The Pyroclastic Dragon is immune to the Blind status effect. It is still affected normally by lighting conditions and darkness.

Improved Sunder at 8th level the Pyroclastic dragon gains the Improved Sunder feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites.

Pyroclastic Scales. at 11th level the Pyroclastic dragon gains SR equal to his HD+11 and gains DR/magic and good equal to half his HD.

Destruction body: At 11th level the Pyroclastic dragon deals an aditional 1d6 fire damage with each sucessfull natural attack. This extra damage increases one die step for every 3 HD gained from here.

Frightfull Presence: at 12th level the dragon gains frigthful presence.The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected enemy that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, enemies with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Hear No Evil - Having spent hundreds of years in Gehenna, hearing the constantly exploding volcanoes the souls screaming and moaning in despair, the Pyroclastic Dragon is practiced in ignoring what it does not wish to hear. At 13th level it may treat itself as being under the effects of a silence spell when such would be beneficial to it. This is an extraordinary effect and is not suppressed by an anti-magic field.

Gehenna Sunder: At 13th level, In addition to the improved sunder feat, When attempting to sunder an item (Or construct) the Dragon's weapons count as having a shatter effect upon them. The caster level for the effect is equal to the Dragon's caster level.

Volcano: At 14th level the pyroclastic dragon has sudden bursts of activity. It may take an extra standard or move action on his turn, but after taking it he needs to wait 5 turns before using this ability again.

Pyroclastic Magic: At 15th level, whenever the pyroclastic dragon uses an SLA that would deal fire damage, he may have half the damage dealt be sonic. In adition his caster level for all [Fire] and [Sonic] spells increases by 2, and now ignore any Caster level limits on such spells.


Pyroclastic Assault: At 16th level, the Pyroclastic dragon may charge at an enemy even if there's nonworked nonmagical ground, earth and/or stone between them, automatically destroying the obstacles. This includes any material trough wich the pyroclastic dragon can burrow and Stone Walls. The dragon must still find his oponent's position trough some mean.


Tail sweep:This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep automatically deals 2d6 plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down). Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon).

Immobile:The pyroclastic dragon represents the very core of the world. It can ignore any effect that would cause it to move and/or change dimensions against his will.

Volcanic body: The pyroclastic dragon is now fully immune to criticals, poison, stun, and polymorph effects against his will, and is also fully immune to fire and sonic.

Eruption: The Pyroclastic dragons explosions are a sight to behold. It may now take an extra fullround action on his turn instead of just an extra partial action. It must wait five turns before using this again.

Comments:

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As a planar dragon the pyroclastic doesn't receive spellcasting, but has considerably better skills and a wide support of extra abilities to make up for it.

In particular climb and burrow speed at 1st level, destruction breath for an at-will save or die, extra actions, see and hear no evil, several immunities, genhea sunder, ect.

So if you want to play a fire dragon that trades spellcasting for sheer brute power the pyroclastic dragon's for you.

Done by Kyuubi, some tweaks by me.

[Oslecamo]

The Pyroclastic for example, as written seems to me to be better in almost every way than the red dragon. I realize that we're supposed to cut out the spellcasting (Although, I'd prefer to leave it in and take the SLAs and some of the abilities out.) but until we do, the Pyroclastic just seems plain stronger than the red dragon to me.

By all means then, the pyroclastic dragon has lost his spellcasting now, as it should have been done from the begginning. Styx dragon is next.

EDIT: And done! Any other complains about monsters done under my nose?

[Mystic Muse]

Pyroclastic dragon From Draconomicon

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HD: d12
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Pyroclastic Body
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Fire/Sonic Breath
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense 60 feet, Strength +1, Constitution +1
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Wings, Pyroclastic Dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Burrow/Climb, Pyroclastic diet, Growth
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Pyroclastic dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
7| +7| +5| +2| +5| See No Evil, +1 strength, +1 Constitution
8| +8| +6| +2| +6| Improved Sunder, Pyroclastic dragon SLAs +1 Charisma
9| +9| +6|+3 |+6| Growth, Tail Slap, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | Burrow/climb, Pyroclastic dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Pyroclastic Scales
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 |Growth,frightful presence,+1 Strength, +1 Constitution,
13| +13| +8| +4| +8| Hear No Evil, Gehenna Sunder.
14| +14 | +9| +4| +9| Pyroclastic dragon SLAs +1 Charisma
15| +15 | +9| +5| +9| +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
16| +16 | +10| +5| +10| Pyroclastic dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
17| +17| +10| +5| +10|+1 Strength, +1 Constitution
18| +18| +11| +6| +11|Disintegrating breath, Pyroclastic dragon SLAs, Growth.
[/table]

2 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, appraise, bluff, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.


Proficiencies: a Pyroclastic dragon isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons

Pyroclastic BodyThe Pyroclastic dragon loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Dragon traits, Bite 1d8 damage, 2 claws for 1d6 damage each, a 40 foot base land speed and medium size. The Pyroclastic dragon has wings but they're too weak to do anything for now. His claws are capable of fine manipulation and can be used for anything a human hand could do.

The Pyroclastic dragon also gets a natural armor bonus equal to his Constitution modifier. Whenever the Pyroclastic dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

The Pyroclastic dragon has resistance to Sonic damage equal to its total hit dice. In addition to this, The Pyroclastic dragon has complete immunity to mundane fire and resistance to magical fire equal to its total hit dice.

Keen Senses: At second level, the Pyroclastic dragon's senses become far stronger. The Pyroclastic dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet

Pyroclastic Breath: At second level the Pyroclastic dragon gains a breath weapon. The breath weapon is a 30 foot cone dealing 1d6 damage/HD, half fire and half sonic damage, with a reflex save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Constitution modifier for half an takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. The cone increases by 5 feet for every extra hit die the dragon gains.

Blindsense: At third level the dragon gains Blindsense as the normal ability, range 60 feet.


Wings: At 4th level The Pyroclastic dragon becomes able to fly at the speed of 10 feet per HD, with poor maneuverability. The maneuverability doesn't increase naturally, but players can take the Savage Species feat that increases it by two steps(stackable). Each wing can also be now used to deliver a natural attack dealing 1d4 damage.

Pyroclastic dragon SLAs: At 4th level the Pyroclastic dragon can cast Pyrotechnics and Sound burst 1/day for each HD, At 6th level he can cast Produce Flame and Shatter 1/day for every 2 HD, at 8th level he can cast Shout and Wall Of Fire 1/day for every 3 HD, at 10th he can cast Wall of Stone 1/day for every 4 HD, at 14th he can cast Fire Storm for every 5 HD, at 16th he can cast Power Word Stun and Incendiary Cloud for every 6 HD and at 18th he can cast Meteor Swarm 1/day for every 7 HD.


Burrow/Climb: At 5th level the player gets the choice between a base burrow speed of 40 feet and a base climb speed of 40 feet. The player gets the other speed at tenth level.

Pyroclastic Diet: at 5th level, although it prefers meat, the dragon is capable of subsisting completely on rocks and minerals. They are the only known creature capable of eating mud pies.

Growth:At 5th level the Dragon grows to large size. At 12th he grows to huge and at 18th he grows to Gargantuan. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.

See No Evil - The Pyroclastic Dragon is used to dwelling amid exploding geysers of magma. At 7th level, the middling effects of spells such as Pyrotechnics and Glitterdust can simply be shrugged off. The Pyroclastic Dragon is immune to the Blind status effect. It is still affected normally by lighting conditions and darkness.

Improved Sunder at 8th level the Pyroclastic dragon gains the Improved Sunder feat even if he does not meet the prerequisites.


Tail Slap:At fifth level The Pyroclastic dragon can now make a tail slap attack dealing 1d8 damage(already taking in account large size).


Pyroclastic Scales. at 11th level The Pyroclastic dragon gains SR equal to his HD+11 and gains DR/magic equal to half his HD.

Hear No Evil - Having spent hundreds of years in Gehenna, hearing the constantly exploding volcanoes the souls screaming and moaning in despair, the Pyroclastic Dragon is practiced in ignoring what it does not wish to hear. At 13th level it may treat itself as being under the effects of a silence spell when such would be beneficial to it. This is an extraordinary effect and is not suppressed by an anti-magic field.


Gehenna Sunder: At 13th level, In addition to the improved sunder feat, When attempting to sunder an item (Or construct) the Dragon's weapons count as having a shatter effect upon them. The caster level for the effect is equal to the Dragon's caster level.

Frightfull Presence: at 15th level the dragon gains frigthful presence.The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Disintegrate Breath: At 18th level the pyroclastic dragon gains a disintegrating line breath weapon, in addition to the Sonic/Fire breath. The range is 30 feet +5 feet for every hit dice the dragon has. Creatures and objects hit by the breath must make a save equal to 10+half the dragon's hit dice+ the Constitution modifier or be disintegrated as per the disintegrate spell.

Done by Kyuubi, some tweaks by me.

just made some tweaks to the growth and table since there were a few remainders from its previous growth cycle.

By all means then, the pyroclastic dragon has lost his spellcasting now, as it should have been done from the begginning. Styx dragon is next.

Nobody complained about the spellcasting being there at the beginning or I would have taken it out. Everybody complained that the dragons weren't strong enough instead.

[Oslecamo]

Nobody complained about the spellcasting being there at the beginning or I would have taken it out. Everybody complained that the dragons weren't strong enough instead.

Don't remember that. I do remember Hyudra complaining that the dragons were pretty damn strong, and she was the best helper I had on this thread.

[flabort]

quote's broken, Kyuubi.
May want to fix. Looks like the class has been posted a third time as is.
I was mighty confused when I scrolled down to your post, until I saw "[/quote]".

[Crafty Cultist]

Here is what I promised. its still a little rough around the edges, so let me know if you think anything is off

The Kython

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HD:d8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|

+1

|

+2

|

+2

|

+0

|Demon spawned body, Broodling, Kython senses, +1 dex
2nd|

+2

|

+3

|

+3

|

+0

|Poison, Resistant carapace, +1 str, +1 dex
3rd|

+3

|

+3

|

+3

|

+1

|Juvenile, Kython instict, +1 str, +1 con
4th|

+4

|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|Improved poison , +1 str, +1 con
5th|

+5

|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|Adult body, Spawn weponry, +1 str, +1 con
[/table]
Skills: 2+ int mod. A Kython's class skills are Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Survival, and Swim

Proficiencies: a Kython is proficient in its natural wepons

Features:

Demon spawned body: A kython loses all Racial trait and becomes a small abberation with a speed of 30ft. The kython gains a bite attack dealing 2d6 damage(plus strength) and a tail attack dealing 1d4 damage(plus half strength). The kython has a natural armor bonus equal to his constitution bonus.

Broodling: A first level Kython is still little more than a newborn. The kython has no arms and is incapable of speech, though it can understand it.

Blindsight: A kython, has no eyes and cannot see. however, the kython has blindsight with a range equal to their HD x 10ft, and blindsense with a range of 60ft. Once the Kython blindsight reaches 50ft, the range of its blindsense becomes equal to their blindsight range plus 20ft. Beyond that range, the kython must make a listen check to notice anything.

Poison: At second level, A kython's bite and tail atacks become poisonous. the save DC against the poison is equal to 10+ 1/2 HD + constitution modifier. the intial and secondary damage are the same(1d4 points of strength damage).

Resistant carapace: At second level, the exoskeleton that protect a Kython's body become resistant to the elements. A kython gains acid and cold resistance equal to their HD and resistance to fire and electricity equal to half their HD.

Juvenile: At third level, a kython has reached adolecence, but still has more maturing to do. The Kython becomes medium sized and grow arms that are capable of fine manipulation, ending in claws that deal 1d6 damage each(plus half strength). The kython's vocal cords also develop, allowing the kython to speak. The kythons exoskeleton also hardens, increasing its natural armor bonus by one.

Kython instict: A third level Kython becomes better able to sense danger, adding his Kython level to initiative and listen checks.

Improved poison: At forth level, a Kython's poison becomes more virulent, increasing the strength damage dealt from 1d4 to 1d6.

Adult: At fifth level, a Kython's body is fully developed. It loses its tail but gains a second pair of arms, and its claws and fangs become more powerful. It's bite attack now deals 3d6 damage and it's claws deal 1d8 damage each.

Spawn weponry: Now fully grown, a fifth level kython can ingest gemstones in order to lay eggs containing kython wepons. The value of the gemstones required is dependent on the wepon the kython wishes to produce. In addition, the kython must have the required number of HD in order to create a wepon.
{table=head]Wepon|GP worth of gems required|HD Required
Boneblade|400gp|5HD
Bone Shard Crossbow|150gp|5HD
Mucus Pod|4000gp|8HD
Extra Armor|6000gp|8HD
Acid Spitter|4000gp|8HD
Mouth Laucher|2000gp|8HD
Phase Organ|80000gp|17HD[/table]

comments

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The kython has blindsight as its only form of vision, and it was tricky to figute out how to have it from level one without making it overpowered(unlike the grimlock, who has blindsight as its main ability). I chose to give the kyhton weak blindsight to start with, augmented with blindsense. I didn't bother with the change in poison damage from constitution to strength, since it would be to powerful at low levels. The kython's blindsense grows at a greater rate than the grimlock, to make up for the fact that it cannot speak or use items until third level.

Once any kinks are worked out, I'll get started on presige classes for the more specialized breeds

[Mystic Muse]

Looking at the dragons (Other than the planar ones since I don't know what to compare those to) here's my verdict.

Wouldn’t take gold dragon past 8th level.
Wouldn’t take green past 9
Wouldn’t take bronze past 9
Wouldn’t take red past 5. Maybe 7 or 8 if I wanted the stat boosts.
Would take Silver dragon to ten if I wanted tail slap. Wouldn’t go past 8 if I didn’t.
Wouldn’t take White past 8
Wouldn’t take purple past 8
Wouldn’t take Blue past 9

None of these classes really have anything that's more appealing than, or that I couldn't get through spell levels other than control plants and foresight. At least as far as I could tell. I'd rather take a PRC any day than take just about any of these to twenty.

[Gorgondantess]

...You seem rather vexed, Oslecamo. Is there a problem?

[flabort]

Don't remember that. I do remember Hyudra complaining that the dragons were pretty damn strong, and she was the best helper I had on this thread.

Yes, she did help out a lot. (She? is that right? hard to tell online)
Her peaching really improved a ton of classes.

[The Winter King]

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HD: d8
Spell Weaver
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

1st|

+1

|

+0

|

+2

|

+2

|Body of the Six Armed Mage, Sorcerous Talent, Basic Disk|2|0|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|

+2

|

+0

|

+3

|

+3

|Telepathy, Vow of Silence, +1cha, +1int|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|

+x3

|

+1

|

+3

|

+3

|Mage Powers, +1dex|4|3|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|Spellweaving, +1int, +1cha|5|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|

+5

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|Shielded Thoughts|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|

+6

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|Improved Disk, +1 int, +1cha, +1dex|6|6|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|

+7

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|Arcane Resilience|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|

+8

|

+2

|

+6

|

+6

|+1int, +1cha|6|7|6|4|2|-|-|-|-|-

9th|

+9

|

+3

|

+6

|

+6

|Magecraft, +1dex|6|7|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

10th|

+10

|

+3

|

+7

|

+7

|Perfect Disk, +1int, +1cha|6|8|7|6|4|2|-|-|-|-
[/table]
2 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, Spot, Knowledge(any), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

Proficiencies: A Spell weaver isn't proficient with any armor and is proficient with all simple weapons and its own natural weapons.

Features:
Body of the Six Armed Mage: The Spellweaver loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Monstrous Humanoid traits, 2 slam attacks for 1d3+str mod. damage each and 30 base speed, medium size. The Spellweaver has 4 additional arms, but they're too weak to do anything for now.

A Spellweaver also gets a natural armor bonus equal to his 1+Constitution modifier.

At 4HD, a Spellweaver has 4 slams and 4 fully functional arms and Multiattack as a bonus feat.

At 10HD, a Spellweaver has 6 slams and 6 fully functional arms and gains Improve Multiattack as a bonus feat.

Sorcerous Talent:

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A Spellweaver can cast spells as a sorcerer of its level except that it uses its own spells per day as indicated in the table.

A spellweaver has 2 0level spells known plus one per point of intelligence bonus at the 1st level. A spellweaver also learns an additional spell known each level past first. These spells may be chosen from any arcane spell list and a spellweaver may learn sorcerer only spells.

In addition a spellweaver casting a spell requires a number of free hands equal to the spell's level. A spell of the 7th level or higher occupies all six arms.

A spellweaver's class levels stack with sorcerer levels and advance as a sorcerer past level 10 however the spells known rules for a spellweaver still apply. Prestige classes that advance spell casting count as sorcerer levels for this purpose.

ie. Jack is a 10th level spellweaver who has just reached level eleven and has decided to take a level of sorcerer. He would gain 1 4th and one 5th level spell per day and one additional spell known.

Essentially you subtract the spells per day of a sorcerer one level lower than your combined sorcerer and spellweaver levels and add the difference to you spells per day and you still learn only 1 additional spell at each level.

Basic Disk:

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Every spellweaver has a disk that contains all of their memories. This Disk functions much like a wizard's spell book and has a number of effective pages equal to 5 x its Intelligence modifier. A spell weaver may exchange one spell known per point of Intelligence modifier for a spell in the disk's memory when it renews its spells per day.

A Disk can be imbued so it can be used as the focus for any spell within it by paying 2xthe focus' price. The Spellweaver must be holding the disk to use it.

Placing a spell in the disk costs the same as scribing a spell in a spell book.

The Disk is a Fine sized object (AC 18) that has half of its master's hp, hardness equal to 1/2 its HD and uses its master's saving throws. The Disk's destruction has the same consequences as the death of a familiar, and may be recreated in a 24 hour ritual costing 100gp and all of the spellweaver spell slots for that day.

Telepathy: A Spellweaver can comunicate telepathically to any creature that is within 60ft. It can also use this ability to activate magic items with a command word.

For every 3 additional HD a spellweaver has increase the range of its telepathy by 10ft.

Vow of Silence A spellweaver can never speak. It replaces the verbal components of spells with somatic components and it cannot ever apply the effects of the Still Spell metamagic feat to any of its spells from any class.

Magepower: A Spellweaver gains a number of uses of Magepower equal to its HD. He can spend one use to cast detect magic, or 2 uses to use arcane sight or see invisibility as SLAs.

At 6HD a spellweaver can use invisibility or identify as a SLA for 2 uses of magepower

At 12HD a spellweaver can spend 4 uses of Magepower to use greater arcane sight or planeshift as SLAs

Spell Weaving(Ex):

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A spellweaver is famous for their ability to cast multiple spells each round. A spellweaver using this ability can cast a number of spells in a round equal to half his HD as a full round action and the levels of all spells cast must not exceed half his HD(Maximum six spells and spell levels).

Also the spellweaver may not cast more than two spells that have the same name and takes a penalty to his caster level for all spells cast using spellweaving equal to the number of spells cast with this ability.

At 10HD a spellweaver's spell weaving takes an action equal to the longest casting time of the spells cast.

At 15 HD it may cast three spells with the same name.

Shielded Thoughts: A spellweaver gains a bonus on saving throws against mindaffecting effect equal to half its HD and no longer automatically fails a Will save on a roll of one.

Improved Disk:

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An Improved Disk allows a spell weaver to cast any spell within its disk by taking a full round action, making a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to the spell's level + 15 and expending a spell slot of the appropriate level. If you fail the check the spell slot is lost for the day. A spellweaver cannot combine this use of Improved Disk with its spellweaving ability.

The Disk can now supply a number of spell levels of energy equal to half his spellweaver levels. Every 2 HD not gained from this class increase the effective spellweaver for this ability by one.

The Disk's effective number of pages rises to 7 x Intelligence modifier.

In addition its hardness now equals its master's HD and it gains a bonus to its saving throws equal to its master's Charisma modifier.

ie. A 6th level spell weaver would have 3 spell levels which could be spent on a single 3rd level spell, a 2nd and a 1st level spell or 3 1st level spells.

Arcane Resilience: A spellweaver's SR = 11 + HD + Charisma bonus.

Magecraft: A spellweaver gains a bonus on Concentration and equal to his HD.

Perfect Disk: A spellweaver's disk now has 10 x Intelligence modifier effective pages and can supply a number of spell levels of energy equal to his spellweaver level + 1/2 HD from nonspellweaver levels.

The Disk reduces Magepower costs by one while held.

In addition the Disk has hp equal to its master's, has equal to its master's HDx2 and add its master's Charisma modifier as a deflection bonus to its AC.

Changelog

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okay i have removed multitasking, changed its spell known progression, defined the Disk, restricted spell weaving to two spells of the same name and unable to combine it with improved disk

Okay Oslecamo I removed Multitasking with no prequisites and replaced it with multi attack and improved multi attack as bonus feats.

Kyuubi I restricted Spell weaving to 2 spells of the same name, and 3 at 15 hd and placed a penalty to the caster level of all spells by 1/spell.

[Oslecamo]

...You seem rather vexed, Oslecamo. Is there a problem?

Yes. Several. You yourself said the dragons were quite balanced in the other thread. They're also the basis of the thread. And now you decide they're actualy weak.

You weren't the first person claiming the power level here isn't high enough. Playswithfire also tried it also. You're being more subtle but you're basically aiming at the same thing. Your bronze dragon, horned devil and rakasha prototypes confirm it. No more. I'll go focus on the new campaigns I promised to DM, clean up the planar dragons, take care out of the other poster's additions and then I'll go back and see if you changed your mind*, or at least salvage whatever's useable from your work.

*Note: prcs that give fullcasting, full Bab, HD more two times bigger than normal and powerfull perks at every level are basically the definition of OP. At least my ethergaunt has the decency of having a d8 HD, weak Bab and stops you from casting defensively.

Kyuubi:Sorceror is worth 6 levels. Clerics are worth taking 5 levels. Wizards are worth what with master specialist available? Two levels? One? That my dragons are worth 9 levels when compared to all the OP prcs out there it's damn good in my opinion.

Like Realm of Chaos pointed out some pages ago, not everybody is playing auto-prestige classing ASAP to OP prcs. My classes aim at pleasing at an audience as big as possible. Heck, the red dragon's literally the poster monster here. And if that means that powergamers will want to Prc out at the middle of the class, so be it, have a good day and thank you for stoping by.

But if I make my red dragon able to face a master specialist/cheese champion out of the bat, guess what? Most people will look at it, cry cheese and don't use it. And they'll probably be right to do so.

[Mystic Muse]

Kyuubi:Sorceror is worth 6 levels. Clerics are worth taking 5 levels. Wizards are worth what with master specialist available? Two levels? One? That my dragons are worth 9 levels when compared to all the OP prcs out there it's damn good in my opinion.

Like Realm of Chaos pointed out some pages ago, not everybody is playing auto-prestige classing ASAP to OP prcs. My classes aim at pleasing at an audience as big as possible. Heck, the red dragon's literally the poster monster here. And if that means that powergamers will want to Prc out at the middle of the class, so be it, have a good day and thank you for stoping by.

But if I make my red dragon able to face a master specialist/cheese champion out of the bat, guess what? Most people will look at it, cry cheese and don't use it. And they'll probably be right to do so.

I'm not saying to balance it toward cheese. I'm saying make it worth taking for the entire class instead of it only being worth it until you can PRC out into Swiftblade or something. If you're going to PRC you should have to give something up in exchange. As written I don't see what I'm giving up other than a couple of stat boosts and being larger than other PCs.

EDIT: and a bigger hit die.

[Oslecamo]

a couple of stat boosts

If you consider +13 to stats to be just "a couple" then I don't really know what to answer you.

[Mystic Muse]

If you consider +13 to stats to be just "a couple" then I don't really know what to answer you.

Which seems more powerful to you. +13 spread out amongst 3 different stats or another 10-11 levels of spellcasting plus full BAB?

[Gorgondantess]

Yes. Several. You yourself said the dragons were quite balanced in the other thread. They're also the basis of the thread. And now you decide they're actualy weak.

Oh, no! They're quite balanced! I never said they were good, though. The bard is balanced, too, but if you don't PrC out after 10th level you might as well stamp "chump" on your forehead. I should've been more clear on that.

You weren't the first person claiming the power level here isn't high enough. Playswithfire also tried it also. You're being more subtle but you're basically aiming at the same thing. Your bronze dragon, horned devil and rakasha prototypes confirm it. No more. I'll go focus on the new campaigns I promised to DM, clean up the planar dragons, take care out of the other poster's additions and then I'll go back and see if you changed your mind*, or at least salvage whatever's useable from your work.

Well, that's how I work. I glance at other classes, but then I consider several things: will this class be fun and interesting and unique? Will this class be useful in most situations? Both of those should be yeses. Will any level of this class be taken to get the later abilities? If that's a yes, it needs to be changed. I honestly don't care if my class is more powerful than the gloom, because I personally think the gloom could use a bit of a power boost. So, I make to my own specifications, and see what you think- in the end, you have the final say.
My problem with the dragons is they're all awesome... for 10 levels. Then the bard casting starts slowing down, and they've already gotten their large size and their SLAs and whathaveyou. Then, it's all a linear progression from there. Fullcasters progress quadratically, so I make martial/stealth characters do the same.

*Note: prcs that give fullcasting, full Bab, HD more two times bigger than normal and powerfull perks at every level are basically the definition of OP. At least my ethergaunt has the decency of having a d8 HD, weak Bab and stops you from casting defensively.

So... the idea is, unless I renounce my statement that the Abjurant Champion isn't OP, you're essentially going to ignore me on this thread?

Sorceror is worth 6 levels. Clerics are worth taking 5 levels. Wizards are worth what with master specialist available? Two levels? One? That my dragons are worth 9 levels when compared to all the OP prcs out there it's damn good in my opinion.

Whoah, whoah, whoever said that WotC could make classes for a damn? Because they can't.

But if I make my red dragon able to face a master specialist/cheese champion out of the bat, guess what? Most people will look at it, cry cheese and don't use it. And they'll probably be right to do so.

Once again, it's the balance thing. Make it viable to stay in the class, but also make it viable to PrC out. You don't have to give it much- not at all, really. The idea isn't to make it just as good as PrCing out to abjurant champion, the idea is to make them think about maybe not PrCing out to abjurant champion. In fact, I knew my bronze dragon was too much, but I was feeling too lazy to clean it up and was going to get back to it after I got your critique.

[Oslecamo]

Which seems more powerful to you. +13 spread out amongst 3 different stats or another 10-11 levels of spellcasting plus full BAB?

When you add in the extra size increase, two good saves instead of 1, a couple new SLAs on top of improvement of the old ones, full Bab on the dragon side as well, 6-7 levels of spellcasting (dragons still reach 6th level spells), I would say it's more or less a fair deal.

[Oslecamo]

Well, that's how I work. I glance at other classes, but then I consider several things: will this class be fun and interesting and unique? Will this class be useful in most situations? Both of those should be yeses. Will any level of this class be taken to get the later abilities? If that's a yes, it needs to be changed. I honestly don't care if my class is more powerful than the gloom, because I personally think the gloom could use a bit of a power boost. So, I make to my own specifications, and see what you think- in the end, you have the final say.

Thus I'm seriously considering that your material is simply not worth reviewing and I'm better making the class from scratch because I know you've added too much stuff right out of the bat and I'll end up wasting as much time cuting it as I could've spent puting them in, specially when they end up in this kind of discussions. I could've made two more new monsters for each one time I need to explain you my design philosophy. That's simply innefecient.

My problem with the dragons is they're all awesome... for 10 levels. Then the bard casting starts slowing down, and they've already gotten their large size and their SLAs and whathaveyou. Then, it's all a linear progression from there. Fullcasters progress quadratically, so I make martial/stealth characters do the same.

Except that casters don't progress quadratically. They progress in a bizzarre formula that is faster than noncasters but not very clear.

But whatever the formula, my classes still progress in something faster than linear, but as usual you ignore it and pretend the dragons don't actualy gain more stuff at each of their levels.

So... the idea is, unless I renounce my statement that the Abjurant Champion isn't OP, you're essentially going to ignore me on this thread?

Heck, even if you do I'm not very sure I'll give you atention here any time soon because whatever I tell you seems to be forgoten in the next minute.

Whoah, whoah, whoever said that WotC could make classes for a damn? Because they can't.

Don't really care. I'm not re-writing D&D from scratch here. Wich means I need to base myself in something, even if it's not perfect.

Once again, it's the balance thing. Make it viable to stay in the class, but also make it viable to PrC out. You don't have to give it much- not at all, really. The idea isn't to make it just as good as PrCing out to abjurant champion, the idea is to make them think about maybe not PrCing out to abjurant champion.

Except that there's a trillion prcs out there, ranging from self-crippling to insane, and Abjurant Champion definetely isn't the middle ground. Again, if you love abjurant champion so much by all means take it, but if I need to pick arbitary power levels then I'll pick my own.

EDIT:About your PM, you can go join imp_fireball if you want. Not here please. If you trust your own ideas so much then test they'll probably hold on their own just fine.

[Gorgondantess]

Well, alright then. Sorry for wasting your time; it's been fun.

[flabort]

What just happened? it suddenly got a lot colder.

[Gorgondantess]

What just happened? it suddenly got a lot colder.

Well, Oslecamo and I have irreconcilable gaming philosophy differences, so I won't be making any more creatures.

[Crafty Cultist]

Well, Oslecamo and I have irreconcilable gaming philosophy differences, so I won't be making any more creatures.

people will always disagree over things and there's no helping that. Best of luck in your endeavors, Gorgondantess

Edit: also, does anyone have any problems with my kyton? I've started work on the prestige classes for the advanced breeds, and I'd like to know if there are any problems with the origanal

[Gorgondantess]

people will always disagree over things and there's no helping that.

That's... pretty much exactly what I said, actually.
Ah, well, this'll give me a chance to really sink into my Paladin thread. Maybe I'll even finish my other base class I've been working on.

[Aran Banks]

But I liked Gorgon's stuff... sigh.

Request: Aboleth? Has anybody done one of these? I couldn't find it on the list of things that were completed.

[Vizzerdrix]

Edit: also, does anyone have any problems with my kyton? I've started work on the prestige classes for the advanced breeds, and I'd like to know if there are any problems with the origanal

Sweeeeet! Thanks for making it. Now I gotta get one into a monsterous game

[AustontheGreat1]

Ok, I thought I'd say on here in case anybody cared but, due to my work schedule and school, I'm going to be a little busy so I probably won't be able to do any monsters. I thought I'd let ya'll know in in case anyone wanted to see the aboleth or whatever get done because I probably wont be able to do it myself. I apologize.

[Oslecamo]

Edit: also, does anyone have any problems with my kyton? I've started work on the prestige classes for the advanced breeds, and I'd like to know if there are any problems with the origanal

Move the first poison to 2nd level, remove the little natural armor increases along the class and it should be ok. Good job there.

[Crafty Cultist]

Move the first poison to 2nd level, remove the little natural armor increases along the class and it should be ok. Good job there.

Moved poison to level 2. kept the natural armor increase at 3rd level since its size increases there.

[Stycotl]

Heck, even if you do I'm not very sure I'll give you atention here any time soon because whatever I tell you seems to be forgoten in the next minute.

for what it is worth, you both have good points in the argument. this is not an issue that is black and white, cut and dry, good and evil. it's got to have room for subjectivity, because it is a subjective argument.

however, you are starting to come off as pouty and resentful, oslecamo, and i don't see that anyone on the thead has given you reason to act in such a way.

you just drove off one of your best helpers, whether you agree with his/her gaming ideology or not. too bad, because this project was on a roll.

[The Tygre]

You know, Oslecamo, I can't help but notice you've never actually outlined what your 'design philosophy' for this project is explicitly. If people keep infringing on it, then you probably should... I don't know, post it? I've thought about taking a whack at a two or three HD monster once or twice, but I'm not sure I want to if it ends up with you and a bunch of other people getting pissed off and basically telling me to **** off.