Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[Ormagoden]

If we're going by pure RAW then a diplomancer. Unless Batman never talks to anyone else he's now your fanatically devoted fluffy lil lapdog. I'm not sure how you'd Contingency that: any time I get really fond of someone teleport me to my Fortress of Solitude? Of course, diplomancers are an abuse of a broken mechanic, which I'd expect any DM to Rule 0 pretty fast. I feel the same way about Batman wizards though, so...

Yes, I agree, that's why I mentioned it earlier :P

[Darklord Xavez]

Just coup de grace them with an axe while they're asleep/trancing/whatever. If you use, say a greataxe and have strength of 18 (i.e. the envious party fighter), that's an average damage of 33, and a DC 43 fortitude save or die to boot. Casters almost never have good fortitude saves. Works even better if you're the party rogue.
-Xavez

[Sewercop]

Yes, I agree, that's why I mentioned it earlier :P

Yeah, still will not work. Mind blank takes care of that.

[BeholderSlayer]

Yes, I agree, that's why I mentioned it earlier :P

Mind Blank

Just coup de grace them with an axe while they're asleep/trancing/whatever. If you use, say a greataxe and have strength of 18 (i.e. the envious party fighter), that's an average damage of 33, and a DC 43 fortitude save or die to boot. Casters almost never have good fortitude saves. Works even better if you're the party rogue.
-Xavez

Since, you know, you'll regularly get close to a level 20 wizard while he's sleeping. He's also immune to sneak attack.

You won't get close to a high level wizard while he's sleeping.

[Adamaro]

@jseah
I am sure you can get a bunch of these in Phallic-objects-r-us in Sigil

Also, with this, there is a target, a Wizard must hit as a sort of an preemptive strike. Which brings a bunch of problems for him. (like, say, entering AMF - a cunning enemy will know how to do it)

In such a hit, IMHO creatures like phane and its Null time field are in order. Just change field reach to say, 100.001 feet and DC to 9000. Or over 9000

A lvl 20 wizard does not play with lvl 20 meatshields but augmented phanes and the mentioned pillars. IMHO.

[Sewercop]

Just coup de grace them with an axe while they're asleep/trancing/whatever. If you use, say a greataxe and have strength of 18 (i.e. the envious party fighter), that's an average damage of 33, and a DC 43 fortitude save or die to boot. Casters almost never have good fortitude saves. Works even better if you're the party rogue.
-Xavez

Please tell me how you are going to get close to the caster?

[Darklord Xavez]

Since, you know, you'll regularly get close to a level 20 wizard while he's sleeping. He's also immune to sneak attack.

You won't get close to a high level wizard while he's sleeping.

Please tell me how you are going to get close to the caster?

1. How is he immune to sneak attack? There is no spell that does that, and sleeping in armor makes you exhausted the next morning.

2. Since when was this a level 20 wizard? Read the title of this thread again.

3. He's asleep. He wouldn't think to guard himself from the other members of his party, now would he?
-Xavez

[BeholderSlayer]

1. How is he immune to sneak attack? There is no spell that does that, and sleeping in armor makes you exhausted the next morning.

2. Since when was this a level 20 wizard? Read the title of this thread again.

3. He's asleep. He wouldn't think to guard himself from the other members of his party, now would he?
-Xavez

1. Robes, bracers, you name it of Heavy Fortification.
2. The entire conversation has been about high level wizards. Please remain on topic.
3. What party? (PS - Yes, he would think of that)

[Adamaro]

Hmmm. Upgrading my concept.
Modified phane: improved range of Null time field with just silly DCs, same range AMF field and an artifact shard - if a target of a disjunction, it disables casters' abilities (like all artifacts). Forever.

[Sewercop]

1. How is he immune to sneak attack? There is no spell that does that, and sleeping in armor makes you exhausted the next morning.

2. Since when was this a level 20 wizard? Read the title of this thread again.

3. He's asleep. He wouldn't think to guard himself from the other members of his party, now would he?
-Xavez

1: Many ways
2:I said caster, but the thread has mostly been agianst wizards. Have you read the thread at all??? Cause your build says otherwise.
3:Who needs a party?

[BeholderSlayer]

Hmmm. Upgrading my concept.
Modified phane: improved range of Null time field with just silly DCs, same range AMF field and an artifact shard - if a target of a disjunction, it disables casters' abilities (like all artifacts). Forever.

Kindof pointless when you can Gate in one of these.

For good measure, gate in 13 of them....or maybe 20+ ancient great wyrm force or prismatic dragons....the possibilities are endless.

[Sewercop]

@jseah
I am sure you can get a bunch of these in Phallic-objects-r-us in Sigil

Also, with this, there is a target, a Wizard must hit as a sort of an preemptive strike. Which brings a bunch of problems for him. (like, say, entering AMF - a cunning enemy will know how to do it)

In such a hit, IMHO creatures like phane and its Null time field are in order. Just change field reach to say, 100.001 feet and DC to 9000. Or over 9000

A lvl 20 wizard does not play with lvl 20 meatshields but augmented phanes and the mentioned pillars. IMHO.

I am curious on how you are going to change the reach and dc? Please tell me... Raw

[crizh]

Experience points are not something that can be visualized by a character, so no, that doesn't work.

I'm sure I can invent some other cheese that is 'visualizable' that is not also explicitly barred by the text of Genesis.

The DMG also states this:

Therefore, the wizard can close his plane except on the singular situation that it is himself that grants access.

This exact quote is repeated in the Manual of the Planes on page 7.

Yes indeed planes can be locked. This is not part of the 'environment' section of either book. Genesis only permits you to modify the environment. Those features of planes are clearly and exhaustively defined in both DMG and Manual of the Planes. Feel free to go nuts with Limited Magic but you can't deny others access to the plane. That quality is part of the underlying fabric of the plane not the environment it contains.

Flowing time is explicitly outlined in the Manual of the Planes, and its uses are even specifically outlined to allow for flowing time abuse. The fact that established planes do not have the trait is irrelevant, it is an option and it may be chosen.

The quote regarding the D&D cosmology is irrelevant, as it is focused on planes, not demiplanes.

Demiplanes are explicitly part of the D&D cosmology. The D&D cosmology includes demiplanes (DMG p147). Flowing time is detailed in the DMG on p168 in the section on Alternative cosmologies.

There are no flowing time planes or demiplanes in the D&D cosmology. Explicitly. As per the text of the DMG. You are free to use flowing time in your own cheesed out custom world but it does not exist in the baseline game.

[BeholderSlayer]

I'm sure I can invent some other cheese that is 'visualizable' that is not also explicitly barred by the text of Genesis.



Yes indeed planes can be locked. This is not part of the 'environment' section of either book. Genesis only permits you to modify the environment. Those features of planes are clearly and exhaustively defined in both DMG and Manual of the Planes. Feel free to go nuts with Limited Magic but you can't deny others access to the plane. That quality is part of the underlying fabric of the plane not the environment it contains.

The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane.

Come again?

Demiplanes are explicitly part of the D&D cosmology. The D&D cosmology includes demiplanes (DMG p147). Flowing time is detailed in the DMG on p168 in the section on Alternative cosmologies.

There are no flowing time planes or demiplanes in the D&D cosmology. Explicitly. As per the text of the DMG. You are free to use flowing time in your own cheesed out custom world but it does not exist in the baseline game.

That would be what is known as a "house rule" and "DM fiat" and is not part of a theoretical discussion of the rules. The option is there, you may use it. The EXISTING planes may not have the trait, but this is a custom-created plane. Saying that a specific line about a specific cosmology that comes from a book about creating custom cosmologies is evidence that a trait cannot be used is a bit silly.

[Sewercop]

Arcane genesis can set the time traits The psionic one cant. (If i can remember right, im away from the books)

Anyway, too lock down your plane http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Forbiddance

[BeholderSlayer]

Arcane genesis can set the time traits The psionic one cant. (If i can remember right, im away from the books)

That would be correct.

Forbiddance isn't really necessary, as Genesis explicitly states that the plane has limited access.

[Sewercop]

Yeah, but it seems people refuses to understand what genesis can and can not do.A simple spell from the srd that states it clear makes thing a lot easier to get through to people.

[JonestheSpy]

Kindof pointless when you can Gate in one of these.

For good measure, gate in 13 of them....or maybe 20+ ancient great wyrm force or prismatic dragons....the possibilities are endless.

So you're 125th level now, are you?

[Emmerask]

Mind Blank

Mind blank seems to only protect you from becoming a fanatic follower however it does not protect you from becoming helpful towards the diplomancer which lets you take risks for him which in the end will somehow lead to the wizards downfall ^^

[ArcanistSupreme]

Kindof pointless when you can Gate in one of these.

For good measure, gate in 13 of them....or maybe 20+ ancient great wyrm force or prismatic dragons....the possibilities are endless.

Because there is no such thing as overkill.

[Jolly]

Mind Blank

Mind Blank makes you immune to fanaticism. It does not make you immune to someone talking you into something.

[crizh]

Genesis explicitly states that the plane has limited access.

Yes, a Demiplane has limited access. That's part of the very definition of demiplane. The key word here is limited. Manual of the Planes explains that this means that demiplanes connect to one other plane via a portal on that plane at the point that the two planes are coterminous. Even people using Plane Shift must do so at the point where the two planes are coterminous.

The portal is often keyed. Time of the year, phase of the moon, command word, etc etc. These restrictions apply only to the portal. If you are at the portal and have access to Plane Shift there is no barrier to entry.

Genesis does not specify that you are permitted to define the parameters of the portal or portals connecting your demiplane to the rest of the Great Wheel but it is not unreasonable to allow this.

That would be what is known as a "house rule" and "DM fiat" and is not part of a theoretical discussion of the rules. The option is there, you may use it. The EXISTING planes may not have the trait, but this is a custom-created plane. Saying that a specific line about a specific cosmology that comes from a book about creating custom cosmologies is evidence that a trait cannot be used is a bit silly.

Yes, you are proposing a house rule.

All planes within the Great Wheel have normal time. Endof.

In the shift to 3.5 flowing time was moved out of the main body of planar environmental traits, where it is in the Manual of the Planes, and into the later section for building alternate cosmologies. The traits described there are not available to planes in the Great Wheel. It's not very complicated. A whole bunch of cheese-mongers exploited flowing time in 3.0 so it was removed from the Great Wheel in 3.5. It's still there if you don't mind a bit of Gouda but it is still a 'house' option.

It's only available by DM fiat and is therefore thoroughly under DM control.

[ArcanistSupreme]

All planes within the Great Wheel have normal time. Endof.

One key point that I think is being missed here: All existing planes have normal time. There is nothing that says that they must have normal time, simply that they have normal time. While this could seem that it's a case of "well the rules don't say," it's actually a case of what is specifically outlined in the genesis spell. The spell says that you decide the traits of your shiny new demiplane. Time flow is a trait. Therefore, you decide time flow, even if other existing planes don't have a weird time flow.

Just because all of the other houses in the neighborhood are brown doesn't mean that you can't paint yours blue.

Plus, does this mean that plane in Eberron that is the reason that the Planar Shepherd is so broken (can't remember the name at the moment) is a lie?

[Lans]

Mind Blank makes you immune to fanaticism. It does not make you immune to someone talking you into something.

"Look you'll only be dead for like 10 minutes and you'll feel like you've rested for eight hours. Thats another 7 hours in which you can do things. Its total win."

On a slightly more or less serious not
For Celerity+foresight+contigency
Belt of battle or levels of factotum.
Use two extra standard actions to ready two actions.
One is to interrupt celerity with a maximized force orb.
One is to interrupt contingency with Dimensional Anchor or what ever the anti 'port spell of choice is.

[Doug Lampert]

Technically, that is correct, as everything in DnD is dependent on the whim of the DM - red dragons can breathe popcorn and dwarves can fart prismatic spheres if the DM wants for their personal campaign.

However, there are the Core Rules/SRD that are the foundation that everything else is built upon and are regarded as dogma when having discussions about the game. All the rest is even-more-optional, and as I said, my personal opinion is that allowing blatantly overpowered stuff like Celerity is just asking for gross game imbalance.

Just because WotC published it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

True, consider Gate, Planar Binding, Polymorph, Shapechange, Time Stop, Astral Projection, ...

And for the other characters there's always RaW Diplomacy.

D&D 3.x is BROKEN. This starts in core and gets (very very slightly) worse with splats. The way you make it work is to play with people who either don't notice that it's broken or who are willing to ignore it and not touch the broken parts.

(Diplomacy is actually one of the most annoying broken parts to me, because a perfectly legitimate character concept is the social bard, and he will break the game BY ACCIDENT, the concept can't really be used without breaking the game because those rules are so broken so people not noticing is no defense if someone chooses to play a bard that is serious about diplomacy.)

[Kirgoth]

Could you create a safe haven, a large self-sufficient demiplane with "dead magic" and a single permanent entry portal with limited access ( stop undead/abberation armies and such entering). Then just ignore the silly mages, they can enter if they like but are little more than commoners within and would have to behave or have their butts kicked by tier 5's.

Killing them:
Assuming they have multiple clones hidden in several closed and hidden demi-planes and use astral projection from a closed demi-plane where their real bodies are turtles and are in suspended animation. Also they are super intelligent and would work out all the possible tricks to get them and take counter-measures using contingent spell.

Use alter reality with metaconcert to transport all his clones and his original body which is in suspended animation ( no save ?) into the "safe haven". Drop him in an arena full of angry housecats and laugh.

[BeholderSlayer]

So you're 125th level now, are you?

A 20th level spellcaster can obtain a CL of 125 fairly easily. A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/ScM 4/Spellthief 1 can at least obtain a CL of 277. The CL record for a 20th level character is higher than 38,000. That's high enough to travel >Mach 400 on a Phantom Steed with Reserves of Strength.

Oh and dare I mention, the same character has >250 9th level spells memorized as 20th level spells, or suitably metamagic'd spells (Maximized Empowered Time Stop, etc.), and 24 hour Shapechange with one casting, and Gate with no XP cost.

Yes, a Demiplane has limited access. That's part of the very definition of demiplane. The key word here is limited. Manual of the Planes explains that this means that demiplanes connect to one other plane via a portal on that plane at the point that the two planes are coterminous. Even people using Plane Shift must do so at the point where the two planes are coterminous.

The portal is often keyed. Time of the year, phase of the moon, command word, etc etc. These restrictions apply only to the portal. If you are at the portal and have access to Plane Shift there is no barrier to entry.

It need not be keyed to a portal, it can be keyed to a situation.

Genesis does not specify that you are permitted to define the parameters of the portal or portals connecting your demiplane to the rest of the Great Wheel but it is not unreasonable to allow this.

I'm glad we agree, so the key is made to be the situation that wizard grants access. Impenetrable.

Yes, you are proposing a house rule.

All planes within the Great Wheel have normal time. Endof.

In the shift to 3.5 flowing time was moved out of the main body of planar environmental traits, where it is in the Manual of the Planes, and into the later section for building alternate cosmologies. The traits described there are not available to planes in the Great Wheel. It's not very complicated. A whole bunch of cheese-mongers exploited flowing time in 3.0 so it was removed from the Great Wheel in 3.5. It's still there if you don't mind a bit of Gouda but it is still a 'house' option.

It's only available by DM fiat and is therefore thoroughly under DM control.

When having a theoretical discussion, all options are open. DM fiat is a variable and thus not relevant. You must have a common ground for discussion, thus all options must be open if they are printed.

[ArcanistSupreme]

A 20th level spellcaster can obtain a CL of 125 fairly easily. A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/ScM 4/Spellthief 1 can at least obtain a CL of 277. The CL record for a 20th level character is higher than 38,000. That's high enough to travel >Mach 400 on a Phantom Steed with Reserves of Strength.

Oh and dare I mention, the same character has >250 9th level spells memorized as 20th level spells, or suitably metamagic'd spells (Maximized Empowered Time Stop, etc.), and 24 hour Shapechange with one casting, and Gate with no XP cost.

Now I'm curious. Do you have a link?

[BeholderSlayer]

Now I'm curious. Do you have a link?

Ah, I made a minor mistake. The record is actually 37,803. My brain switched the 7 and the 8.

I think that number could actually be higher using some circle magic and node spellcasting.

I don't have a link to the 277 CL with 250+ level 9 spells as level 20s, but that's because it involves a lot of process. It's mostly in my head, I worked out the numbers across many posts. I can't claim most of the ideas as my own, I mostly worked out the math with help from others for concepts.

[JonestheSpy]

A 20th level spellcaster can obtain a CL of 125 fairly easily. A Wizard 5/Red Wizard 10/ScM 4/Spellthief 1 can at least obtain a CL of 277. The CL record for a 20th level character is higher than 38,000. That's high enough to travel >Mach 400 on a Phantom Steed with Reserves of Strength.

Oh and dare I mention, the same character has >250 9th level spells memorized as 20th level spells, or suitably metamagic'd spells (Maximized Empowered Time Stop, etc.), and 24 hour Shapechange with one casting, and Gate with no XP cost.

Umm, yeah. Right. You just have fun with that.

When having a theoretical discussion, all options are open. DM fiat is a variable and thus not relevant. You must have a common ground for discussion, thus all options must be open if they are printed.

You seem to be laboring under the gross misapprehension that "printed"="common ground". Even so, I seriously doubt you'd find common ground with many players in regards to having the caster described in your first paragraph, even if they did play with every splatbook ever published.

D&D 3.x is BROKEN. This starts in core and gets (very very slightly) worse with splats.

Yeah, I hear that line a lot, and yet if you look at all the ridiculous uberbuilds in this very thread, they almost all involve some kind of non-core cheese, usually quite a lot of it. Yes, there's overpowered stuff in Core, but not it's really not all that much, and most of it easily fixable with a tweak or two. That's nothing compared to wizards with insane numbers of contingencies crafted or clerics with Persist spell and a bagful of nightsticks.