Best ways to kill a Tier 1 caster without being one

[BeholderSlayer]

Umm, yeah. Right. You just have fun with that.




You seem to be laboring under the gross misapprehension that "printed"="common ground". Even so, I seriously doubt you'd find common ground with many players in regards to having the caster described in your first paragraph, even if they did play with every splatbook ever published.

This is a theoretical discussion, not an actual gaming session. In a theoretical discussion the only common ground there happens to be is what is printed.

[Gametime]

You seem to be laboring under the gross misapprehension that "printed"="common ground". Even so, I seriously doubt you'd find common ground with many players in regards to having the caster described in your first paragraph, even if they did play with every splatbook ever published.

I don't see how setting arbitrary and poorly-defined limitations on what material the wizard can or cannot use helps us measure the theoretical strengths or weaknesses of a wizard.

Yeah, I hear that line a lot, and yet if you look at all the ridiculous uberbuilds in this very thread, they almost all involve some kind of non-core cheese, usually quite a lot of it. Yes, there's overpowered stuff in Core, but not it's really not all that much, and most of it easily fixable with a tweak or two. That's nothing compared to wizards with insane numbers of contingencies crafted or clerics with Persist spell and a bagful of nightsticks.

Almost every "broken" spell, feat, ability, or combination thereof is "easily fixable" in the sense that it can be ignored or disallowed. One's ability to ignore the rules says little about the quality of the rules themselves.

Crazy-go-nuts optimization gets a lot easier when you allow all the material, no question about it. A wizard doesn't need to be crazy-go-nuts to have world-shattering power, though, and short of just banning such options there isn't much you can do about it.

Notably, most of the viable responses to a properly prepared wizard draw on material from outside core. The wizard's competition gains a lot more than he does.

[JonestheSpy]

I don't see how setting arbitrary and poorly-defined limitations on what material the wizard can or cannot use helps us measure the theoretical strengths or weaknesses of a wizard.

Um, you think the SRD is "arbitrary" and "poorly defined"?

Almost every "broken" spell, feat, ability, or combination thereof is "easily fixable" in the sense that it can be ignored or disallowed. One's ability to ignore the rules says little about the quality of the rules themselves.

Most Core stuff doesn't need to be banned. A lot of the abuse comes from vague wording that the DM can interpret as they see fit - e.g. all the hoopla about the Genesis spell. And as for the trick about using Genesis+Astral Projection, the A.P. spell specifically says the body of the caster has to be left on the Material Plane (look it up if you don't believe me), thus a DM is perfectly justified in saying the spell doesn't work if cast on a demiplane. And if anyone wants to whine about that being too nitpicky, it's A) Rules as written, and B) circumvents an obvious abuse of rules that the writers clearly didn't intend. That's just one example. Gate? 1000xp a pop. How many times do you use it until the rest of the party is Epic and you're not?

[jseah]

@jseah
I am sure you can get a bunch of these in Phallic-objects-r-us in Sigil

Unfortunately, there is no crafting information on that Obelisk.
It's even listed as a magical location... not something you make.

Sorry, no buying it.
FYI, it's also at least 30ft tall. Solid stone... I wonder how many tons that is.


^About theoretical vs practical optimization:
True, the wizard can't go bat**** insane about optimization.
If you would like an example of the builds given, there are two/three on the BG forum link.
Only one uses Genesis + AP. That was given as the TO wizard.

EDIT: The non-TO wizards are certainly killable.
IIRC, two successful builds were a Nar Demonbinder and an intimi-rage barbarian

[Awnetu]

how does the dirty trick work? hindsight doesn't let you cast that spell in conjunction with the spell.

[Radar]

how does the dirty trick work? hindsight doesn't let you cast that spell in conjunction with the spell.

It lets you cast a variety of detection spells in conjunction with the Hindsight itself. The dirty trick about the whole thing is to metamagic Detect Magic into a damaging spell (Snowcasting + Flashfrost) and top it with Fell Drain just to be sure. Another way is a Dweomerkeeper using his Supernatural Spell to cast Teleport through Time. It all ends in a time war anyway.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

Well, since there's no way to get the first attack. The best way I know of to kill a T1 adventurer is anti-magic field. Cast it on your 3'' tall shimmerling familiar with share spells, have it fly into their space while you beat the crap out of them however you want.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Most Core stuff doesn't need to be banned. A lot of the abuse comes from vague wording that the DM can interpret as they see fit - e.g. all the hoopla about the Genesis spell. And as for the trick about using Genesis+Astral Projection, the A.P. spell specifically says the body of the caster has to be left on the Material Plane (look it up if you don't believe me), thus a DM is perfectly justified in saying the spell doesn't work if cast on a demiplane. And if anyone wants to whine about that being too nitpicky, it's A) Rules as written, and B) circumvents an obvious abuse of rules that the writers clearly didn't intend. That's just one example. Gate? 1000xp a pop. How many times do you use it until the rest of the party is Epic and you're not?

What about time stop, the polymorph line, mind blank, and in some cases summon monster X (not sure if this last one needs splat help to become so or not) is not broken, just to name a few? Metamagic feats (core ones such as quicken and extend, mind you) further mess up game balance. The tier one trio is also expected to be running around with their paladin and monk buddies, which is also stupid.

As for the losing exp to gate issue, consider that lower level character gain exp faster. Ever hear that exp is a river? Sadly, I don't have a more concrete example (can anyone back me up?). Keep in mind you will have the same WBL as everybody else, and you will be at absolute most two levels behind everyone, though this will likely be due to item crafting more than multiple castings of gate. And you're still way more powerful than your fighter buddy.

Back on topic:

Well, since there's no way to get the first attack. The best way I know of to kill a T1 adventurer is anti-magic field. Cast it on your 3'' tall shimmerling familiar with share spells, have it fly into their space while you beat the crap out of them however you want.

Antimagic field has been addressed pretty thoroughly earlier in the thread. Look for stuff talking about adamantine or tinfoil hats.

[137beth]

Um, you think the SRD is "arbitrary" and "poorly defined"?



Most Core stuff doesn't need to be banned. A lot of the abuse comes from vague wording that the DM can interpret as they see fit - e.g. all the hoopla about the Genesis spell. And as for the trick about using Genesis+Astral Projection, the A.P. spell specifically says the body of the caster has to be left on the Material Plane (look it up if you don't believe me), thus a DM is perfectly justified in saying the spell doesn't work if cast on a demiplane. And if anyone wants to whine about that being too nitpicky, it's A) Rules as written, and B) circumvents an obvious abuse of rules that the writers clearly didn't intend. That's just one example. Gate? 1000xp a pop. How many times do you use it until the rest of the party is Epic and you're not?

Um, almost every effective non-wizard build in this thread has also used non-core. The fighter can do almost nothing with just core, since he runs out of good feats so fast. The wizard is probably the class that can do the MOST with core, so I'm having trouble seeing why limiting the challenge to core hurts the wizard.
And saying that the wizard is limited to core but other classes aren't qualifies as "arbitrary and poorly defined standards".

[dsmiles]

@OP: Has, "Kill him in his sleep" been mentioned?

[Sewercop]

@OP: Has, "Kill him in his sleep" been mentioned?

You got it. You found a way to kill him. We just do it when he sleeps.
Do you think he sleeps?

[dsmiles]

You got it. You found a way to kill him. We just do it when he sleeps.
Do you think he sleeps?

Unless he's undead/outsider, probably. Even with a ring of sustenance, you have to sleep sometime.

[Awnetu]

Was covered, he does sleep, in another plane, in his Magnificent Mansion. alone. With contingencies, alarms, construct allies. :)

Problem I have with it, is Hindsight doesnt target a person, would that mean that it suddenly smacks everything in that location for 2 damage or whatever? Nevermind, flash frost does.

That and you need 365 CL/ Per year the target has lived to hit only where the baby is. Otherwise you now have an entire centuries worth of wights eating people.

[Myth]

Hehe i love you guys .This has been a very entertaining read, glad i raised the subject.

To those whining that the caster can't run around with 24hr duration foresight:

Incantatrix. She can persist it for free. Yes it's FR and situational, but still it's quite possible.

To all the geniuses coup-de-gracing the Wizard in his sleep... Read the whole thread before posting, it might help a little.

[Esser-Z]

War Hulking Hurler. Throw his personal plane at him.

[Emmerask]

Hehe i love you guys .This has been a very entertaining read, glad i raised the subject.

To those whining that the caster can't run around with 24hr duration foresight:

Incantatrix. She can persist it for free. Yes it's FR and situational, but still it's quite possible.

To all the geniuses coup-de-gracing the Wizard in his sleep... Read the whole thread before posting, it might help a little.

The problem is that without specifics (ie a specific build of an avg lvl15 wizard) this wizard has become a defensive wonder who plans for very single eventuality he has become THE wizard, A wizard on the other hand is pretty easy to kill.

[Ravens_cry]

An assassin. Not an Assassin, but an assassin. Or a ninja, but not a Ninja.

[BeholderSlayer]

XP costs for gate are negligible. Thought Bottle. Burn XP all day long, reset your XP with thought bottle. Rinse. Repeat.

[jseah]

The problem is that without specifics (ie a specific build of an avg lvl15 wizard) this wizard has become a defensive wonder who plans for very single eventuality he has become THE wizard, A wizard on the other hand is pretty easy to kill.

Does no one read links? The BG forum thread has a "generic" level 20 optimized wizard.

It's an elven generalist wizard 20 too, so don't say it's a specific wizard. The strategies used in that thread are ones that almost any wizard can use (save those that ban the specific school)

[Myth]

OK then let's provide a build. 32 point buy, max hp per level (this benefits those who take d12 classes as CON is less of an impact then). All sources apply. 2 flaws.

I'd go for Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 10 / Archmage 2 / Iot7V 3 for CLVL 20

The Incantatrix can actually out defense a Iot7V where it matters - persisting Shapechange/Foresight for example. I'll leave the 21 Crafted Contingencies + the banned schools up to the better players here.

If you want to go Epic consider Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incatatrix 10/ Archmage 2 / Iot7V 10 / Dweomerkeeper 10 < this is pretty much snapping the Multiverse in two, but feel free to take a stab at it. ClVL is 37 Even without Epic Spellcasting he can pretty much rapestomp 10 lvl 37 non-casters. And i"m willing to prove it although I'd be loathe to write a lvl 37 character sheet.

[Emmerask]

Does no one read links? The BG forum thread has a "generic" level 20 optimized wizard.

It's an elven generalist wizard 20 too, so don't say it's a specific wizard. The strategies used in that thread are ones that almost any wizard can use (save those that ban the specific school)

Oh I did but it is
a) a lvl 20 wizard (while the op said ecl15+)
b) optimized

which makes it more then a tier 1 wizard it makes up for a specific subgroup of tier 1 wizards but clearly not all of them

[ArcanistSupreme]

The problem is that without specifics (ie a specific build of an avg lvl15 wizard) this wizard has become a defensive wonder who plans for very single eventuality he has become THE wizard, A wizard on the other hand is pretty easy to kill.

Perhaps we should come up with a build to work with and get rid of the ambiguity? With spell list, items, contingencies, and other preparations. Assume standard WBL. Should we do a point buy or just use elite array?

It's already unfair for the others, let's see how difficult we can make it while still giving them a chance.

EDIT: Swordsage'd hard. We should probably agree on a level. 20 or 15?

[Myth]

Oh I did but it is
a) a lvl 20 wizard (while the op said ecl15+)
b) optimized

ECL 15+ does include a level 20. I did want to give a stabe at Clerics and Druids but it appears that this forum wants the greatest challenge and thus chose to go right fort the goddamn Batman.

Optimized yes, well not broken wish abuse optimized, or 250 CL optimized, just sort of "normal optimized" - Celerity, Timestop, Shapechange, Abrupt Jaunt that sort of stuff.

[jseah]

Oh I did but it is
a) a lvl 20 wizard (while the op said ecl15+)
b) optimized

which makes it more then a tier 1 wizard it makes up for a specific subgroup of tier 1 wizards but clearly not all of them

Deleveling a straight wizard 20 is easy.

As for optimized, that thread made little use of build specific stuff. IIRC, only a few feats and a Greater Rod of Extend.

At least 80% of the "build" was in clever usage of spells. +lots and lots of prior preparation.
IIRC, one of them dug out a chamber in a mountain without an entrance, then private sanctum to block detection. Put his clone, simulacrum and backup spellbook in it.

Furthermore, the higher edges of cheese were nibbled away. Craft Contingent Spell wasn't used on both sides, and no specific stuff like CL scaling or COP algorithmic divination.

[Gametime]

Um, you think the SRD is "arbitrary" and "poorly defined"?

I wasn't responding to your comment about the SRD, but to your comment about "common ground." If the criteria for building a wizard is that we find "common ground" with everyone who plays D&D, well, we're going to have a rough time of it. The SRD isn't universal. Lots of people play with only the core books, meaning no XPH, no ELH, etc. Lots more people consider the PH2 core.

Then there's the fact that you yourself have brought up - DMs can ban and tweak whatever they want. How exactly does limiting it to core (or the SRD, or whatever) find us common ground when you proposed banning or tweaking all the broken core stuff already?

What you're proposing isn't a "core only" discussion, it's a discussion utilizing only material that you consider balanced. While that's laudable for an actual game, it's thoroughly useless for an internet discussion since we don't have anything approaching a comprehensive list of what you'd consider balanced.

[Sewercop]

Epic are not going to matter. You can go epic before level 20 anyway.
Besides that epic are just epic fail. The system itself cant handle it. So please leave epic out of it.

Tier 1 casters basicly snaps theyre fingers and the system does what they want it to do.If you would like to break the game as a tier 1, all you need to do this is to read the rules.

But most people dont actually bother to check links or what people tell them.
Take this thread as an example, links are presented, no one cares. They still gonna say super uber ninja can crosbow kill it. Even if proven wrong.

This is just like talking to most of the people I game with. They know so little of mechanics that the cleric rerolled as fighter to be able to fight. The 19 lvl melee tank could not fly,see invisble,etc all the things needed to matter. They found a mystic theurge broken straight up. And so on...

[Emmerask]

Epic are not going to matter. You can go epic before level 20 anyway.
Besides that epic are just epic fail. The system itself cant handle it. So please leave epic out of it.

Tier 1 casters basicly snaps theyre fingers and the system does what they want it to do.If you would like to break the game as a tier 1, all you need to do this is to read the rules.

But most people dont actually bother to check links or what people tell them.
Take this thread as an example, links are presented, no one cares. They still gonna say super uber ninja can crosbow kill it. Even if proven wrong.

This is just like talking to most of the people I game with. They know so little of mechanics that the cleric rerolled as fighter to be able to fight. The 19 lvl melee tank could not fly,see invisble,etc all the things needed to matter. They found a mystic theurge broken straight up. And so on...

Ah but here is the core of the misunderstanding, the people who try to kill a tier 1 caster don´t have to look at any links provided.
If this particular wizard has the build/abilities/spells/items provided by the link we just ignore this one and take on the other wizard/t1 caster that does not have these.
Remember the challenge the op proposed was about killing A tier 1 Caster not about killing a specific one

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that all t1s are build that way

[Radar]

Ah but here is the core of the misunderstanding, the people who try to kill a tier 1 caster don´t have to look at any links provided.
If this particular wizard has the build/abilities/spells/items provided by the link we just ignore this one and take on the other wizard/t1 caster that does not have these.
Remember the challenge the op proposed was about killing A tier 1 Caster not about killing a specific one

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that they all are build that way

That's just arguing semantics. In that case, I could say, that a 1 lvl Commoner can overpower a 20 lvl wizard, since there can exist a sufficiently gimped and suicidal wizard to make it happen. That sort of an argument is pointless.

[jseah]

I am well aware that there are nearly unbeatable builds (t0 and t-1 builds could maybe kill them) out there but that does not mean that they all are build that way

XD
Of course.

In which case, we need more information about "A tier 1 caster", what you would consider to be standard for a tier 1 caster.

The reason why this is still going on is because alot of the tricks are based on spells and spell selection. Which practically any wizard can get.

[Emmerask]

That's just arguing semantics. In that case, I could say, that a 1 lvl Commoner can overpower a 20 lvl wizard, since there can exist a sufficiently gimped and suicidal wizard to make it happen. That sort of an argument is pointless.

Ah, but the other extreme is pointless too (attacker has no chance whatsoever)

So whats left is the middle ground which might make sense to discuss though someone has to design a decent avg t1 caster

Though what I consider too much others might consider a minimum amount of protection, for example my casters would never run around with a tinfoil/adamtine foil hat ^^