The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!

[Saintheart]

Also, I forgot this bit!

Hey everyone, I've been away from the boards for a good long while, so coming back and seeing this was a nice surprise.

I don't have time right now to read through the entire thread, so I should ask - has the issue been brought up of the challenge (or lack thereof) posed to high-level characters by a large force of mooks? RHoD tops out right around when this starts to become a problem, which makes things interesting.

Also, a few notes for clarity:

Spoiler

Show

My game was, in fact, set in a generic world. Not much was made of the land outside the Vale.

I was the one who came up with the "train the defenders of Brindol" bit, though I pulled the idea from a campaign journal on the Wizards boards, which is now, of course, gone.

Good to see you, k. :) And thanks for the clarifications!

I don't think we've got to the issue of lack of challenge to a party by a large force of mooks, but it's worth a discussion.

Sheez, I've got some updating work ahead...

[Elitarismo]

I'm still working on revamping the statblocks to actually pose a threat, though progress is slow, as I am quite busy with many things including starting the game in which these will be used. I'm not going to release them for a while, as I'd prefer to wait until after the party has fought them at least once and being a PbP game, that could take a while. However the option is open, if people are interested. Fair warning though. Any encounter I make fire tests parties. Weak characters or parties will be destroyed. If your party is something like Fighter/Monk/Ranger/Cleric... you shouldn't use them. They're going to have a hard enough time keeping up with the default weak enemies. They also assume that the list of houserules listed in my signature is in effect. If you are playing by RAW, there is very little that the magic lite RHoD can do to any decent party as most of the encounters are easy for one reason or another relating to the fact that they are Warriors and Fighters in a RAW game. So while with them the RHoD can keep its identity as a largely martial force and still pose a threat, without them the only way to "fix" the army is to add a lot more spellcasters to their ranks, with appropriate spell selection (Glitterdust, Slow, and so forth). It works I suppose, but dividing the game into spell battles and fodder doesn't appeal to me.

With all that said, is there any interest in the statblocks when I am ready to release them? If not I won't bother with all the copy pasting and explanations of the reasoning behind changes involved. But the option is open if you want it.

[Saintheart]

Always handy to have more options, El. Feel free to chuck 'em in here, I'll be interested if nobody else is.

[IthilanorStPete]

Streets of Blood isn't in there, just as any particular map for the red dragon's rampage isn't in there. They seem to assume that people will have spare maps of streets lying around their equipment boxes. ;) There is a description of what the street looks like in that encounter, so it might be possible to knock something together -- but if anyone knows of a generic D&D street map which would be usable for RHOD, I'd like to know about it too.

There's some maps here, though not the one for Streets of Blood, oddly. That map definitely exists, it comes with RHoD, I just can't find it online.

[Jair Barik]

For the ghostlord is there any PrC or class that would give a lvl5 druid +1BAB and would actually benefit him? The only thing his 6th level of druid is giving him is +1 to his caster level...any thoughts for it. I realise there is nothing that can really redeem the statblock without dropping blighter or pumping extra levels onto him that grant him higher level spells that would butcher the party but can anyone think of a single useful level of a full BAB class to replace that awful druid 6 level of his?

[Elitarismo]

Nothing without houserules. With them, Monk houseruled to full BAB, so that he can bulk up his Wisdom and be a little less fragile...

...Is it terrible the Ghostlord is so horribly bad that MONK levels can honestly be argued as an improvement?

[Remuza]

Nice thread you've got going here! Played through Red Hand myself once, thinking of DMing it, so this is pretty handy.

As far as getting the players to return the phylactery without getting hurt -- use the strategy I was using to keep the PCs ignorant of the Antilife Shell: don't make the mountain come to Mohammed. Have the Ghostlord demand they throw it to him across the room. Or get one of the bonedrinkers walk up and take it from a party member. Or demand they toss the phylactery into the yellow pool (he can't drown, and he can easily retrieve it since he's immune to the pool's effects.)

Only thing is, if they're anything like my usual group, this will backfire 100% of the time because players will automatically assume that "Not wanting to collect something in person" = "We are standing on an area trap."

[Saintheart]

Nothing without houserules. With them, Monk houseruled to full BAB, so that he can bulk up his Wisdom and be a little less fragile...

...Is it terrible the Ghostlord is so horribly bad that MONK levels can honestly be argued as an improvement?

Yes. Yes it is.

I think earlier in the thread another user basically said if the Ghostlord was any other type of lich than a blighter it'd at least be a competent character. At least a monk has decent saves all round, can move a bit faster, and focuses on unarmed strikes, which gels with the lich's paralysis attacks. But like I said, a blighter first rips away all the druid's strengths -- summoning, orthodox wild shape and druid casting --and doesn't even give him undead control until he's got level 6 spells. Some of the more obvious stuff like Flame Strike, Forbiddance, and Antilife Shell are given over as a level down on where a druid would normally gain them, but it's a woefully limited spell list with very, very few blasting options and not a lot of buffing party options.

On top of that, any decent melee combat options are then horribly nerfed by imposing the lich template on him. Like I said, it turns anyone with divine spellcasting into the lich's biggest enemy, and anyone who can make a touch attack and has a Healing Belt can do damage to him since he's undead. Even the Evolved Undead template only benefits if you use it for area effect options.

Again, this is all coloured by my own experiences with the Ghostlord. And building him up ahead of the combat and making him truly scary at least lets the players have a sense of achievement if they win; unless they're very good with the math, they won't necessarily know it's going to be easy and if you do it right, they feel like they topped a major villain against the odds.

[Elitarismo]

Healing Belts aren't a big deal, and neither are whatever Cure spells the Cleric has, wands, etc. They don't do enough to make any real difference, so it doesn't matter that they are technically doing something. The only positive energy based threat is the Staff of Life. Especially since no one actually uses Turn Undead attempts to Turn Undead.

The main problems with him is that he's supposed to be threatening but has the offensive abilities of a character of the party's level or lower, and is quite easy to two shot. Staff of Life is the easiest way, but 71 HP and 20 AC and low to average saves means even a level 7 party can slap him silly. They might need to cast Magic Weapon on a random bludgeoning weapon to do it though.

[Saintheart]

Ranged options do work. My campaign, they splatted him with a combo of Light of Venya (sudden maximised) for 76 damage + Magic Missile + Defenestrating Sphere. They didn't have to lay a glove on him. But I agree, Staff of Life is an encounter breaker.

[Elitarismo]

Ranged options do work. My campaign, they splatted him with a combo of Light of Venya (sudden maximised) for 76 damage + Magic Missile + Defenestrating Sphere. They didn't have to lay a glove on him. But I agree, Staff of Life is an encounter breaker.

If your encounter can be broken by a quick, easy, and logical move it's the encounter that is the problem and not the move.

Level 13 enemies should have level 13 style abilities and not fight like a level 7 character.

What does the bolded part do?

[Saintheart]

Meet Defenestrating Sphere. It's not in the Spell Compendium it's so broken. Allows for battlefield control, and untyped damage in one convenient package. And it gets around undead Fort immunities since it affects both creatures and objects. I hate this spell with a passion and would love to know a counter for it if one exists. I seem to remember there's a "bounce back" spell in Exemplars of Evil which reflects ranged attacks of most kinds, but I can't remember its name or if it would do the job.

[IthilanorStPete]

Meet Defenestrating Sphere. It's not in the Spell Compendium it's so broken.

Yeah, it is. Page 62.

I seem to remember there's a "bounce back" spell in Exemplars of Evil which reflects ranged attacks of most kinds, but I can't remember its name or if it would do the job.

Friendly Fire. Not sure off the top of my head whether it would work or not.

[Saintheart]

Doh.

Although now being near the books, it looks to me like Friendly Fire would work: it says "whenever you are the target of a ranged attack or a ranged touch attack". Defenestrating Sphere requires a ranged touch attack to hit.

Guess it's true you learn more from failures than successes...

[Elitarismo]

With a description like that, I was expecting something a lot more... significant.

[Jair Barik]

So for koth what do you think of these spells?

Power word deafen
Wings of cover
Kelagore's grave mist
Most of the low level things unchanged

Power word could happily be changed out for a breathe weapon spell but it seems like a nice one for stopping him getting save or sucked by enemy casters.

Kelagore's I feel iffy about. On the one hand it is a good replacement for lightning bolt/fireball (probably doesn't need practiced spellcaster) but on the other hand it is a very nasty spell. Party in question has shown use of battlefield control via illusions/obscuring mist and SC magic such as snakes swiftness, babau slime and so on.

Thoughts?

[Elitarismo]

So for koth what do you think of these spells?

Power word deafen
Wings of cover
Kelagore's grave mist
Most of the low level things unchanged

Power word could happily be changed out for a breathe weapon spell but it seems like a nice one for stopping him getting save or sucked by enemy casters.

Kelagore's I feel iffy about. On the one hand it is a good replacement for lightning bolt/fireball (probably doesn't need practiced spellcaster) but on the other hand it is a very nasty spell. Party in question has shown use of battlefield control via illusions/obscuring mist and SC magic such as snakes swiftness, babau slime and so on.

Thoughts?

PW: Deafen: Useless. All that for a 20% failure chance on one person? Mooks throwing thunderstones in bulk would be better (not that either approach is any good).

Wings of Cover: Very good, definitely take it so he isn't as easy to take down.

Kelgore's: I don't remember what this does. I do recall it being one of the good spells though.

What level is PW: Deafen?

[Jair Barik]

Lvl 3 no save. Some association with dragons and could be annoying (lasts the entire encounter really) without venturing into TPK territory.

Kelagores is 1d6 per caster level and fatigued. Damages all who remain in it every round.

[Elitarismo]

Lvl 3 no save. Some association with dragons and could be annoying (lasts the entire encounter really) without venturing into TPK territory.

Kelagores is 1d6 per caster level and fatigued. Damages all who remain in it every round.

PW: Deafen is a single target and very minor effect. Certainly not worth the effort to cast. Give him Slow or Stinking Cloud so he can save or lose right back at them. Alternately, give him Great Thunderclap (Will vs stun for 1 round, Fort vs deafen for 1 minute, Ref vs falling prone). 20 foot radius bursts are far better than single target effects, and if you're going to induce a minor effect, at least accompany it with effects that are not minor.

Bonus points if Koth follows it up by saying, "I'm sorry. I can't hear you over the sound of your own stupidity."

Does Kelgore's Fatigue stack to Exhaustion? If it doesn't, it's quite minor. Is that level 2?

[AlexanderRM]

Streets of Blood isn't in there, just as any particular map for the red dragon's rampage isn't in there. They seem to assume that people will have spare maps of streets lying around their equipment boxes. ;) There is a description of what the street looks like in that encounter, so it might be possible to knock something together -- but if anyone knows of a generic D&D street map which would be usable for RHOD, I'd like to know about it too.

No, as IthilanorStPete said, there is a map for it which comes with RHoD, which I get the impression is actually folding-out map (like the generic dungeon as the end of the DMG) that you're able to lay out and use as a combat map.
It's mentioned on page 4, and it's specifically said in the first line of "Setup" for Streets of Blood that you can use it for that encounter.
It doesn't give a picture of it on the page, though, so I think what it actually assumes is that people playing RHoD will have bought the book or have otherwise gotten the battle map that came with it... rather than having downloaded a PDF of it. >_>

Also, the problem with the description of the street map is that it says nothing whatsoever about how wide the street is (also it might be difficult to represent the barricade with Jenga blocks which my group has been using to represent walls, but anyway), which for an encounter where the objective is to prevent enemy soldiers from getting past you, will be VERY important. You can't possibly tell, from the text, whether the street is 10 feet wide or 200 feet wide.

There's some maps here, though not the one for Streets of Blood, oddly. That map definitely exists, it comes with RHoD, I just can't find it online.

Yeah, that is quite odd. I've seen plenty of pictures online of the other two battle maps... though actually I can't tell if those are from the battle maps or just the maps on the pages, since they would presumably be identical.

Can anyone think of a way one might search for it if Google Images doesn't find any? I could try looking for PDFs relating to RHoD, but I doubt many people would scan folding-out maps and put them into a PDF which is formatted for equal-size pages...

If your encounter can be broken by a quick, easy, and logical move it's the encounter that is the problem and not the move.

If you're referring to Heal, then in this case Heal is the problem. Heal is *always* the problem. If an encounter with a single undead *isn't* broken by Heal (unless it's a special immunity), then that's a problem.
Basically, I'm pretty sure Heal was never intended as an offensive spell- I think it was originally supposed to be a "full heal" effect, but within limits so it didn't get broken at Epic levels, and someone pointed out that positive energy harms undead, then naturally Heal would also harm undead.

[Elitarismo]

No, it was supposed to be a full heal but they realized it was too much and also that its inverse, Harm reducing targets from any number of HP to 1-4 was too much so it became 10 points per level. But positive energy has always harmed undead, and it even says against undead, Heal works like Harm.

The problem is with 71 HP, no defenses to speak of, and offenses 6 levels behind par that's the easiest way to pop him. Though for the same reasons, it's incredibly easy to beat him normally, without using the Staff of Life.

Come to think of it, the Ghostlord isn't the only encounter a lot easier to beat than he really should be, just the most prominent one. There are plenty of other examples where enemies take a dozen or more rounds to react to attack, meaning that the party catches them long before they're ready even if they completely botch it, or enemies that don't bother casting hour/level buffs until after there's a problem...

It also isn't the only example where an encounter was broken by a quick, easy, and logical move and the move was blamed rather than the encounter. That's what happens when most encounters have weak Will saves and a decent PC caster encounters them. That is what Moment of Perfect Mind and Conviction potions and so forth are for. Though again, the Ghostlord is the most obvious example as he isn't "supposed" to be beaten.

[Jair Barik]

Amusingly there is a reading of any undead with regeneration (atropal scion for example) that says they are flat out immune to any damage of a type that they can regenerate (such damage counts as nonlethal, undead are immune to nonlethal)

But yeah heal is problematic...

Having been reading some MM4 I have some questions regarding spawn of tiamat.

Over the campaign the party encounters razorfiends, raiders, thunderlizards and also godslayers. I know arcaniss are suggested as a koth replacement but I have some other ideas and wanted feedback on them.

For the thunderlizard wave replacing two of them with a fire belcher and an ice skater and then the riders with weaker varieties of greenspawn. At this late stage of the battle this would hopefully help drive home the extent of tiamats influence on the horde (no blackspawn included as there is one later on doing the sniper set up).

Second idea, for a pre BoB encounter (random travel fight or whilst PC's are looking to do something after coming back early).
A few Half-Orc infiltrators working for the horde lure the party into a trap by pretending they are evacuees in need of help. The trap in question is a blackspawn lurker (the spider dragon) waiting to web/charge the party.

Now do you think these changes would help reinforce the hordes draconic influences or would they detract from the 'novelty' of the razorfiends, thunderlizards, skather and later on the godslayers?

[Elitarismo]

Oh and forgot to mention... what about that Bastard Sword? To clarify, I am not talking about how it's mainly a martial item and there's plenty of items like that already. Those guys need all the gear they can get. I am also not talking about how it is a big ticket item. Rather, my problem with it is that those characters don't use bastard swords, they use some other, better weapon. And if they do use bastard swords, they don't use +1 Frost bastard swords.

The problem I have is thinking of a suitable replacement. I'm really drawing a blank here.

[Saintheart]

Oh and forgot to mention... what about that Bastard Sword? To clarify, I am not talking about how it's mainly a martial item and there's plenty of items like that already. Those guys need all the gear they can get. I am also not talking about how it is a big ticket item. Rather, my problem with it is that those characters don't use bastard swords, they use some other, better weapon. And if they do use bastard swords, they don't use +1 Frost bastard swords.

The problem I have is thinking of a suitable replacement. I'm really drawing a blank here.

Some material on this in the handbook -- rejigging replacement treasures.

Basic line is replace the weapon to suit the party. If the party tank uses a khopesh, make it a +1 frost khopesh (or shift the weapon property to equivalent, like bane maybe.)

No, as IthilanorStPete said, there is a map for it which comes with RHoD, which I get the impression is actually folding-out map (like the generic dungeon as the end of the DMG) that you're able to lay out and use as a combat map.
It's mentioned on page 4, and it's specifically said in the first line of "Setup" for Streets of Blood that you can use it for that encounter.
It doesn't give a picture of it on the page, though, so I think what it actually assumes is that people playing RHoD will have bought the book or have otherwise gotten the battle map that came with it... rather than having downloaded a PDF of it. >_>

The thing is, I've got the physical copy, bought brand-new from my local store. It does have a foldout map, but it's the "Marauder Attack" (i.e. the first encounter) on one side and the "Fane of Tiamat" on the other. No other map for the Streets of Blood at all. I've been robbed! (Although I never read that part of p.4 before, I must admit).

On the other hand, given that WOTC's own website doesn't have the map I've got a feeling this might be one of those unfinished things that got past editing.

Now do you think these changes would help reinforce the hordes draconic influences or would they detract from the 'novelty' of the razorfiends, thunderlizards, skather and later on the godslayers?

I actually think the only reason to avoid a redspawn arcaniss at Vraath Keep is because it cheapens the effect of the greenspawn razorfiends at Rhest. They're meant to be a l33t force which you have to destroy in order for Brindol to have a chance.

But after that point that impact's achieved and the party knows there are spawn with the Hand. So long as the party's not running into spawn around every single corner, it's fine to stick a few more different coloured spawn in here and there.

[Elitarismo]

Some material on this in the handbook -- rejigging replacement treasures.

Basic line is replace the weapon to suit the party. If the party tank uses a khopesh, make it a +1 frost khopesh (or shift the weapon property to equivalent, like bane maybe.)

You are still missing the point entirely.

1: No one uses bastard swords.
2: Anyone that uses one anyways does not use a +1 Frost one.

Changing the weapon to something they do use, but keeping it +1 Frost still makes it nothing more than a lot of gold in a convenient package.

I'm trying to think of something that isn't going to go on a one way trip to the closest vendor.

[Coidzor]

Well, if you don't want to change the weapon and weapon property to something relevant to your martial types, another popular-ish option was to take the wealth of the weapon and spread it around to some minor items for the party as a whole, IIRC.

Unfortunately the WOTC purge got rid of most of the treasure rejiggering discussions on the topic of the +1 Frost Bastard Sword, of which there were a fair few due to the uselessness of the item and the value of it.

[AlexanderRM]

No, it was supposed to be a full heal but they realized it was too much and also that its inverse, Harm reducing targets from any number of HP to 1-4 was too much so it became 10 points per level. But positive energy has always harmed undead, and it even says against undead, Heal works like Harm.

Yeah, I know positive energy hurts undead and that it says that specifically in the descriptions (did you really think I could even be discussing this and not know that?). What I was saying was that the spell had probably been *designed* as a full heal, without particular thought to the fact that it would harm undead, and that part was added out of consistent game mechanics with Harm then being added to provide symmetry.

Really, IMO, they should have made it so that Heal and Harm only worked on willing targets. Then it would work fine with no problem. Actually, I think I'll houserule that for my group.

...or enemies that don't bother casting hour/level buffs until after there's a problem...

Yeah, that's a particular thing I've noticed a bit. I don't think any of the enemies are ever listed as having spells in effect on them, are they?
Though admittedly, 1 hour/level buff spell won't last all day at these levels, and not all of the casters can use all of them that many times/day, so in many cases this makes sense.

You are still missing the point entirely.

1: No one uses bastard swords.
2: Anyone that uses one anyways does not use a +1 Frost one.

Changing the weapon to something they do use, but keeping it +1 Frost still makes it nothing more than a lot of gold in a convenient package.

Hence the suggestion as well as the "(or shift the weapon property to equivalent, like bane maybe.)". Make the type of weapon something one of the mele characters will want to use, and give it whatever +1 special ability would be most useful.
Though, I'd advise against making the special ability appropriate to the party to the point of being strange; don't give it something like spell storing because there's a mele spellcaster in the party, for example.

I suppose it could make sense and actually be quite thematic and historically developing for the Vraath family to have had a Goblinoid bane weapon, since if I recall correctly Rhestilor was attacked by a massive Goblinoid horde, so the Vraath family probably would have fought Goblinoids a fair amount themselves.
I'd almost be tempted to actually re-write the history of the Keep with it having been destroyed by Goblinoids (you'd have to change the description of the place and replace or change the Old Warklegnaw bit... maybe the forest giants were at that time allies of the humans, or maybe former allies who the humans betrayed), which would give a very nice sense of historical continuity and connection.
It'd also be quite appropriate as a weapon for the PCs to acquire (plot-wise as well as in game mechanics), though it'd be nice if it could somehow be done more as a deliberate quest to acquire the weapon to use against the Red Hand...

The thing is, I've got the physical copy, bought brand-new from my local store. It does have a foldout map, but it's the "Marauder Attack" (i.e. the first encounter) on one side and the "Fane of Tiamat" on the other. No other map for the Streets of Blood at all. I've been robbed! (Although I never read that part of p.4 before, I must admit).

On the other hand, given that WOTC's own website doesn't have the map I've got a feeling this might be one of those unfinished things that got past editing.

Ugh... yeah, sounds like.

So, any suggestions on how wide to make the street? I have to decide this by tomorrow and it's pretty important.
Also, does anyone have thoughts on the number of allies that should be there? And on adding in swarms of mooks? I feel like my party probably doesn't need allies for anything besides blocking enemies (especially swarms of mooks) from running past them.

[Saintheart]

So, any suggestions on how wide to make the street? I have to decide this by tomorrow and it's pretty important.
Also, does anyone have thoughts on the number of allies that should be there? And on adding in swarms of mooks? I feel like my party probably doesn't need allies for anything besides blocking enemies (especially swarms of mooks) from running past them.

Eyeballing the scale map of Brindol for consistency, it looks like most of the streets are meant to be about 10-15 feet wide, but this is just stupid.

It depends to some extent how big your party is. Given RHOD's built for a four-man party I would have guessed the street was intended at being about 30 feet wide; that allows the characters to stand side-by-side and still have about five feet either side to cover as well. Since this meant to be a "major" street, I think maybe 40 feet wide from building to building; that gives each character a 10-foot space to cover, which they can with AoOs.

In terms of allies, unless your party's completely unable to take on flying targets I don't think I'd bother. There's about 4 manticores which are the flying artillery, beyond that everyone else is ground-based. The Red Hand only wins this encounter if they get 20 monsters past your players; if the players are even moderately successful this just ain't gonna happen. In addition to everything else, the barricade as written is designed to slow opponents down so the party can deal with them as they come.

Adding swarms of mooks is a matter of balance between making it so long an encounter it's boring and not overwhelming the entire party. If your street's 40 feet wide that's a 20-foot radius for a blasty effect, so if your mage goes direct damage he's got the perfect radius that he almost doesn't have to aim. AslanCross loves the hobgoblin duskblades, which I haven't used as yet, but overall I've got a feeling this encounter should feel more like the party's hitting the Horde's crack troops -- the point of the spearhead, if you will, the guys who are meant to sweep the defence aside so the rest of the cannon fodder follows up.

[Elitarismo]

Well, if you don't want to change the weapon and weapon property to something relevant to your martial types, another popular-ish option was to take the wealth of the weapon and spread it around to some minor items for the party as a whole, IIRC.

Unfortunately the WOTC purge got rid of most of the treasure rejiggering discussions on the topic of the +1 Frost Bastard Sword, of which there were a fair few due to the uselessness of the item and the value of it.

You still are not understanding.

I want to change it. I just can't think of something that is useful and is in the same price range.

Breaking it down into minor items just means several small packages of portable gold instead of one larger one as the more expensive something is, the less likely the PCs are to actually have it or something better than it.

Yeah, I know positive energy hurts undead and that it says that specifically in the descriptions (did you really think I could even be discussing this and not know that?). What I was saying was that the spell had probably been *designed* as a full heal, without particular thought to the fact that it would harm undead, and that part was added out of consistent game mechanics with Harm then being added to provide symmetry.

Really, IMO, they should have made it so that Heal and Harm only worked on willing targets. Then it would work fine with no problem. Actually, I think I'll houserule that for my group.

Then Harm would be entirely useless. 10 damage a level is simply not that great. The Staff of Life thing is the easiest way of smacking down the Ghostlord, not the only way.

Yeah, that's a particular thing I've noticed a bit. I don't think any of the enemies are ever listed as having spells in effect on them, are they?
Though admittedly, 1 hour/level buff spell won't last all day at these levels, and not all of the casters can use all of them that many times/day, so in many cases this makes sense.

In most cases they are either low level slots or they could at least have them up in the day time when they are awake.

Hence the suggestion as well as the "(or shift the weapon property to equivalent, like bane maybe.)". Make the type of weapon something one of the mele characters will want to use, and give it whatever +1 special ability would be most useful.
Though, I'd advise against making the special ability appropriate to the party to the point of being strange; don't give it something like spell storing because there's a mele spellcaster in the party, for example.

I suppose it could make sense and actually be quite thematic and historically developing for the Vraath family to have had a Goblinoid bane weapon, since if I recall correctly Rhestilor was attacked by a massive Goblinoid horde, so the Vraath family probably would have fought Goblinoids a fair amount themselves.

In this, Rhestilor will be a goblinoid city, from the empire of Dhakaan. That is why I'm having a hard time thinking of something useful, because if I went the thematic route it wouldn't be strong enough to help against whatever the PCs face.

[Saintheart]

In this, Rhestilor will be a goblinoid city, from the empire of Dhakaan. That is why I'm having a hard time thinking of something useful, because if I went the thematic route it wouldn't be strong enough to help against whatever the PCs face.

Note here that cities that are razed or destroyed aren't always occupied. Rhestilor on the history was evacuated and the city engineers broke the canal locks holding the swamp waters back from flooding the city. Thus, the goblins might have destroyed Rhestilor, but the place isn't necessarily inhabited. And it still provides a motive for the Vraaths to have a goblinoid bane weapon at the keep.

Another thought: legacy weapon? I know the rules on it generally suck, but it might make it just that bit more interesting than just to throw it away, particularly if you houserule legacy items to not have the penalties that normally come with them?