The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!

[Cwymbran-San]

Just out of curiosity: has anyone ever tried to convert RHOD to an Oriental Adventures or even Rokugan setting? I remember having read about this somewhere in the thread.
If someone is working on this, i would gladly like to assist, preferrably with the fluffy bits (i am not much of an optimizer as a dm...)

Edited for typo

[Saintheart]

You're right, you have read about in the thread - the idea's been bandied about, but nobody's done much with it as far as I know. The first block brought up is the lack of party treasure, since in Rokugan looting the bodies of the dead is culturally taboo. But some of the creatures do lend themselves towards a Rokugan game.

[Cwymbran-San]

Nearly every OA-group i have seen contained a heimin character for this exact purpose.

Please keep me posted if anyone tries a conversion and wants help!

[BWR]

Nearly every OA-group i have seen contained a heimin character for this exact purpose.

Talk about missing the point! Anyone trying that in any L5R game I've been would see their Honor plummet and quickly gain the Bad Reputation disad and worse. (and that should be eta, not hemin).

There are several problems I see with adapting RHOD to Rokugan. Trying to stay system-neutral: The major enemies like Tiamat are easily enough replaced with someone else (like Kyoso or someone similar) and Azar-kul could be replaced with some powerful maho-tsukai trying to summon her. Smaller things like hydras and whatnot will also have to be switched but that's not a big problem. It's things like the dragons. What do you replace them with? You have plenty of big oni but not a lot of them can fly. You have the masses of hobgoblins - what do you use for them? Rokugani goblins are not appropriate and neither is anything else,really. Maybe an army of Lost? They are generally going to be a bigger threat than hobgoblins.

Where do you put the thing? If it's an army of Tainted creatures you basically have to have it in Crab lands, and the Crab are the best suited for stopping an invading army. They would notice a giant army crossing the Wall (or at least their lands) and are probably not going to have the problems of Brindol with politics and will be ready to handle things in general. And then, if you choose to use Tainted creatures in Crab lands you pretty much need Crab characters or the PCs will not make much sense in the area and they will become Tainted because the vast majority of non-Crab do not carry fingers on their person..

I suppose you could rewrite it even more to be gaijin, but then they would either be an armada (even more rewrite, and it will be the Mantis' problem), or they will have to come over the Burning Sands (good luck getting past the Moto undetected long enough to be a problem the Unicorn cavalry can't sweep in and handle) or they will have to come across the mountains. That might work better than the Twilight Mountains, but it will be really slow going for them. I suppose wyrms can replace the dragons to a degree but it will be hard to have differing sizes.

And the Ghost Lord and that blight does just not make sense anywhere except in the depths of the Shadowlands, and the Shadowlands are a lot worse than that dead area in RHOD. And there aren't liches and phylacteries in L5R so that plot point goes out the window. So either you rewrite this bit to the point of unrecognizability or just drop it.

In short, RHOD will need so much work to fit into Rokugan that I feel you are better off just writing your own campaign based on/inspired by than trying to force it to work.

[Cwymbran-San]

I agree, this would be a major overhaul, not just cosmetic fixes. But i do seem to remember a certain part of Rokugani history where the Lion was under the influence of the taint and waged war against the realm.

Maybe the Taint affected a Crane Daimyo this time, rousing all clans into action when the Food supply of large parts of the realm is in jeopardy?

And why not drop the dragons entirely and replace them with bigger and bigger oni? Makes sense to me, as rokugani characters have very little options when it comes to flying (IIRC).

And of course you are correct, it should be eta, not heimin. I apologize for the mistake.

[BWR]

I agree, this would be a major overhaul, not just cosmetic fixes. But i do seem to remember a certain part of Rokugani history where the Lion was under the influence of the taint and waged war against the realm.

I'm pretty sure the Lion never did that. The Crab did, infamously, during the Clan Wars. The closest the Lion came that I am aware was divided loyalties during the Clan Wars (Emperor Fu Leng or the good of the realm). and there was the Shimizu family, but that never went outside Lion lands.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I'm not familiar with Rokugan at all but here's my 2 cents on the matter:

1. I don't think that the Red Hand being hobgoblins is especially important to the plot. They could be replaced by any humanoid race or even humans for that matter and work without any problem. I think the essential aspects of the Red Hand are:
A. They are an invading force intent on exterminating the population of the Elsir Vale and replacing them.
B. They are a new political player in the realm. No one has really heard of or prepared for them. (In the default setting, that is because they only recently gained prominence by consolidating power among the nebulous goblinoid tribes of the mountains that are not really defined or described at all). As long as there is a recently bypassed geographic barrier or a an unstable region where political power could quickly coalesce to allow a new player, they have the space they need.
C. They are fanatics. In the default adventure, they are religious and racial fanatics, but any kind of fanaticism should work. Heck, if they went the more (real world historical) traditional method of enslaving the populace of the Elsir vale rather than exterminating them, I think the adventure still works.

2. Dragons are important to the plot, but only because Tiamat is the goddess behind the Red Hand. If you change out Tiamat for something else, replacing the dragon themed monsters is just a matter of finding a different theme. Unfortunately, there are a lot of monsters to switch out. All of the dragons, the greenspawn razorfiends, bluespawn thunderlizards, and blackspawn exterminators would probably all want to be switched for monsters appropriate to whatever new theme you are looking for.

3. I'm not sure how important the ghostlord's lichdom is to the plot. The phylactery is a mcguffin to explain the Ghostlord's sudden interest in the vale and his ability to switch allegiances quickly. I think the essential elements of the plot are:
A. The ghostlord is supposed to be a power that is beyond the players--or at least might plausibly be thought to be beyond their ability to kill. Negotiation is supposed to be the default option with direct confrontation and destruction as a very risky option. (Yeah, I know, as written, it didn't work out that way).
B. The ghostlord joined the Red Hand because they got the mcguffin and will (probably) be persuaded to abandon them if the PCs return the mcGuffin to him.
i. A lich's phylactery is an especially good mcguffin because it has inherent value to the lich which can be explained regardless of the lich's honor or motivations.
ii. However, anything that is especially valuable to the ghostlord should work, provided that the ghostlord's character is adjusted to make the choice make sense. If it is an ancient relic of the ghostlord's family, or some artifact that will bring him great honor to possess, that should be enough to perform the mcguffin role of explaining why he joined the Red Hand and how he can be persuaded to abandon them.

4. This is just my impression and I could easily be mistaken since I'm not terribly familiar with Rokugan, but I think the bigger challenge in adapting it would be the lack of military readiness in the Elsir Vale and the lack of unity among the political structure. Lord Jaarmath has no Daimyo he can appeal to for assistance. My impression of Rokugan is that most everyone has a Daimyo and that they generally take their obligations to their vassals seriously. If that is the case, then, like my Greyhawk adaptation, you will need an explanation for why the Daimyo can't muster a force to oppose the Red Hand before the siege of Brindol. And you will need an explanation for why no significant reinforcements can reach Brindol except for the dwarves of the Hammerfist holds (who are mercenaries who need payment) and the elves (who the PCs need to recruit). A game of thrones type situation where putative allies look to profit from Lord Jaarmath's downfall (my answer for the Sterich adaptation) is one possible answer to this, but it needs careful consideration and setup.

4B. Also, by default, the Elsir vale is rural and sparsely populated with little organization or unity. Again, I could be wrong, but that doesn't seem to fit my impression of Rokugan. You might need to pick an especially isolated frontier or colony (if they have such things) or increase the size of the Red Hand army (which might make the PCs actions less significant) to make the adaptation work.

[BWR]

I'm not familiar with Rokugan at all but here's my 2 cents on the matter:

I think this is your problem right here.

1. I don't think that the Red Hand being hobgoblins is especially important to the plot. They could be replaced by any humanoid race or even humans for that matter and work without any problem. I think the essential aspects of the Red Hand are:
A. They are an invading force intent on exterminating the population of the Elsir Vale and replacing them.
B. They are a new political player in the realm. No one has really heard of or prepared for them. (In the default setting, that is because they only recently gained prominence by consolidating power among the nebulous goblinoid tribes of the mountains that are not really defined or described at all). As long as there is a recently bypassed geographic barrier or a an unstable region where political power could quickly coalesce to allow a new player, they have the space they need.
C. They are fanatics. In the default adventure, they are religious and racial fanatics, but any kind of fanaticism should work. Heck, if they went the more (real world historical) traditional method of enslaving the populace of the Elsir vale rather than exterminating them, I think the adventure still works.

A. no problem, Rokugan is no stranger to invading demon hordes far more impressive than the one in RHoD.
B. As I've already mentioned, this is hard to do in Rokugan. Extremely isolationist, surrounded by ocean to the south and east, mountains to the west and north, nasty desert to the west and literal hell on earth in the south west. Getting there is hard and they have pretty decent patrols and long-range scouts everywhere but the northen mountains, and those mountains are hard to get thigns through.
C. Not an issue

2. Dragons are important to the plot, but only because Tiamat is the goddess behind the Red Hand. If you change out Tiamat for something else, replacing the dragon themed monsters is just a matter of finding a different theme. Unfortunately, there are a lot of monsters to switch out. All of the dragons, the greenspawn razorfiends, bluespawn thunderlizards, and blackspawn exterminators would probably all want to be switched for monsters appropriate to whatever new theme you are looking for.

It's not that Rokugan doesn't have tons of awesome demons to use, it just doesn't have a lot of fliers. And a common theme is that they are all literal hellspawn, but that's about it. If you try finding a common theme, the closest you get is something like Shokansuru's brood, Onisu or Oni Lords, and any of those groups will make the power level of encounters go up significantly, and don't really make sense for the setting.

3. I'm not sure how important the ghostlord's lichdom is to the plot. The phylactery is a mcguffin to explain the Ghostlord's sudden interest in the vale and his ability to switch allegiances quickly. I think the essential elements of the plot are:
A. The ghostlord is supposed to be a power that is beyond the players--or at least might plausibly be thought to be beyond their ability to kill. Negotiation is supposed to be the default option with direct confrontation and destruction as a very risky option. (Yeah, I know, as written, it didn't work out that way).
B. The ghostlord joined the Red Hand because they got the mcguffin and will (probably) be persuaded to abandon them if the PCs return the mcGuffin to him.
i. A lich's phylactery is an especially good mcguffin because it has inherent value to the lich which can be explained regardless of the lich's honor or motivations.
ii. However, anything that is especially valuable to the ghostlord should work, provided that the ghostlord's character is adjusted to make the choice make sense. If it is an ancient relic of the ghostlord's family, or some artifact that will bring him great honor to possess, that should be enough to perform the mcguffin role of explaining why he joined the Red Hand and how he can be persuaded to abandon them.

3.
There are certainly things like that in Rokugan but PCs would be committing treason by trying to bargain with them, and they won't really be inclined to work with you.
I suppose you could replace the Ghostlord with a Dark Oracle, since they have something similar to phylacteries which allow you to command them (once), but that brings up more problems. One, Dark Oracles are powerful. In D&D terms, 20th level casters with a bunch of free metamagic. And if you have the phylactery you can command it to wipe out the Red Hand (which it probably can do) and let another PC command it to leave the empire forever, which kind of defeats the point of the story. There isn't really anything else equivalent that I can think of.

4. This is just my impression and I could easily be mistaken since I'm not terribly familiar with Rokugan, but I think the bigger challenge in adapting it would be the lack of military readiness in the Elsir Vale and the lack of unity among the political structure. Lord Jaarmath has no Daimyo he can appeal to for assistance. My impression of Rokugan is that most everyone has a Daimyo and that they generally take their obligations to their vassals seriously. If that is the case, then, like my Greyhawk adaptation, you will need an explanation for why the Daimyo can't muster a force to oppose the Red Hand before the siege of Brindol. And you will need an explanation for why no significant reinforcements can reach Brindol except for the dwarves of the Hammerfist holds (who are mercenaries who need payment) and the elves (who the PCs need to recruit). A game of thrones type situation where putative allies look to profit from Lord Jaarmath's downfall (my answer for the Sterich adaptation) is one possible answer to this, but it needs careful consideration and setup.

4B. Also, by default, the Elsir vale is rural and sparsely populated with little organization or unity. Again, I could be wrong, but that doesn't seem to fit my impression of Rokugan. You might need to pick an especially isolated frontier or colony (if they have such things) or increase the size of the Red Hand army (which might make the PCs actions less significant) to make the adaptation work.

There are a few places that an invasion can work. Up north in Phoenix or Dragon lands works fine for lack of military readiness (which won't work in Crab lands or Unicorn, the best places for an alien invasion scenario), but there are enough changes that need to be made to make it work that you are basically writing just another invasion scenario, and those things do have some common features.
Most of Rokugan is rural and sparesly populated. Farms dot the land of course, but there is still a lot of stuff that is essentially wild lands. The problem is that there isn't an area inside that can spawn a threat like that. The closest is the naga in Shinomen, but they're all asleep and not terribly many. And outside, as we've noted, you have two of the three most militarily powerful clans watching the easiest approaches, and you'll have to change the RH to a navy if you want to come from the east.

[Elder_Basilisk]

A. no problem, Rokugan is no stranger to invading demon hordes far more impressive than the one in RHoD.

I actually don't think demon horde would work for the identity of the Red Hand. Their mundaneness is important to the plot in a couple ways:

1. It serves as a contrast to the later threat that they might open a portal and let an actual demon horde in in the final act. If you start with a demon horde, there's no potential for escalation there.
2. The Red Hand of Doom is in many ways a military campaign focused story. It's important that most of the Red Hand is dudes with swords, spears, etc. That's the imagery. Whether they are hobgoblins, orcs, or Huns is less important in that sense.

3.
There are certainly things like that in Rokugan but PCs would be committing treason by trying to bargain with them, and they won't really be inclined to work with you.
I suppose you could replace the Ghostlord with a Dark Oracle, since they have something similar to phylacteries which allow you to command them (once), but that brings up more problems. One, Dark Oracles are powerful. In D&D terms, 20th level casters with a bunch of free metamagic. And if you have the phylactery you can command it to wipe out the Red Hand (which it probably can do) and let another PC command it to leave the empire forever, which kind of defeats the point of the story. There isn't really anything else equivalent that I can think of.

I think you may be missing the point here which is that I don't think you need a direct equivalent. What if the Ghostlord is a living, but venerable sorcerer with a force of degenerate humans at his command? There is an item that he believes to hold his family honor and he will do whatever the Red Hand commands in order to prevent its destruction/recover it. That's a long ways from a direct equivalent, but the basic plot points still work. PCs recover important mcguffin in chapter 2 and use it as a basis for negotiation in chapter 3 or just exterminate the Ghostlord equivalent.

From a gameplay perspective, the other important aspect to the Ghostlord is that, by introducing undead, he breaks up what might otherwise be a monotony of humanoid Red Hand opponents and provides some variety in the campaign. (Act 1: Humanoids, and a few monsters Act 2: Humanoids and a few monster; Act 3: undead, a few monsters, and a few humanoids, act 4: Humanoids and a few monsters; Act 5: Devils and a few humanoids). The other thing that he provides is a "deal with the devil" roleplaying dilemma, but he doesn't need to be undead or even supernatural for that--all he needs to be is clearly powerful and clearly evil.

There are a few places that an invasion can work. Up north in Phoenix or Dragon lands works fine for lack of military readiness (which won't work in Crab lands or Unicorn, the best places for an alien invasion scenario), but there are enough changes that need to be made to make it work that you are basically writing just another invasion scenario, and those things do have some common features.
Most of Rokugan is rural and sparesly populated. Farms dot the land of course, but there is still a lot of stuff that is essentially wild lands. The problem is that there isn't an area inside that can spawn a threat like that. The closest is the naga in Shinomen, but they're all asleep and not terribly many. And outside, as we've noted, you have two of the three most militarily powerful clans watching the easiest approaches, and you'll have to change the RH to a navy if you want to come from the east.

If the Red Hand is changed to a navy, the plot might work, but I think you'd need to change Drellin's Ferry to a small coastal village, the ruined keep in the Witchwood could become a ruined village/fortress on a nearby island that is too dangerous for most people to live in, and Cinder Hill becomes a large bay on the opposite side of the island. Presumably the Fane of Tiamat would have to then be located on a further island or underwater.

[Cwymbran-San]

What if we made the Red Hand a fraction of Daigotsus Horde? With Lost as the rank-and-file troops and selected oni as heavy support units? We could stage an Invasion from the shadowlands at some remote section of the wall (perhaps between Hidaki sano Mura and Kaiu Shiro?). Daigotsu uses Maho to cloud the minds of the watchers and blasts a hole into the Wall. His forces escape into the wilds behind the wall, marching north towards Shinomen Forest, hiding and assembling their forces. And here RHOD could begin.

For the "looting dead bodies" Problem: why not have the characters be rewarded by their respective lords after closing a portion of the adventure, so they will be "properly equipped to face the next challenges"? Saves time as well: no looting means no identifying the collected nemuranai.

[BWR]

What if we made the Red Hand a fraction of Daigotsus Horde? With Lost as the rank-and-file troops and selected oni as heavy support units? We could stage an Invasion from the shadowlands at some remote section of the wall (perhaps between Hidaki sano Mura and Kaiu Shiro?). Daigotsu uses Maho to cloud the minds of the watchers and blasts a hole into the Wall. His forces escape into the wilds behind the wall, marching north towards Shinomen Forest, hiding and assembling their forces. And here RHOD could begin.

For the "looting dead bodies" Problem: why not have the characters be rewarded by their respective lords after closing a portion of the adventure, so they will be "properly equipped to face the next challenges"? Saves time as well: no looting means no identifying the collected nemuranai.

I thought I'd covered the problems of putting it in Crab lands. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Making the RH part of the Horde (or the Lost or *gags* the Spider) means bringing in the Taint, which increases the seriousness of the adventure significantly. The Crab have experience with invasions from the SL and are always prepared for it, which kind of goes against the stated intention of RHOD in that no one is expecting an invasion. Sure, some things get past now and then but anything the size of the RH will be noticed rather quickly.
Then there's the political infighting in Brindol - I find it unlikely that a local daimyo that near the Wall will have anyone who thinks that diplomacy might be an answer. Heading towards Shinomen is fine but there isn't much there. If they want to take over anything outside the forest, they will be noticed and dealt with rather quickly, unless they manage to get the entirety of the RH to the Shinomen mostly unharmed, and the RH travels through Shinonmen and starts bothering clans on the other borders. By that time the Crab will most likely have warned other Shinomen neighbors that there are a bunch of SL beasties in the woods.

Setting the base of the RH in the SL will mean trekking into it to find it which is going to make the adventure even more deadly. I suppose you could put it in Twilight Mountains, though, which would make the trek a lot less deadly. Putting it in the Shinomen will require pretty much eliminating the final delve into the dungeon altogether. The elves can be replaced with a local Nezumi tribe, so no problems there.

Mechanicswise, there are some problems hitherto overlooked and some mentioned which aren't actually problems. Assuming you are using d20 to run L5R: ignoring that PCs likely won't loot the dead, you don't have things like Staves of Life or healing potions in Rokugan (unless you have a Tamori around). Also there are a number of spells available to the PCs at some point in the adventure which simply do not exist, like any resurrection magic. Result, probably a lot more dead PCs.
Lots of the spells Azar-kul uses do not exist in Rokugan and while you can say 'funky maho ****' for some of them, I seem to remember the existence of a few which would be hard to justify in Rokugan. Off-hand I cannot recall exactly which spells these are so I may be overstating this issue.
Outfitting the PCs shouldn't be a problem - either you run it like R&K Rokugan in that they basically don't have magic items at all and have to power through with pure skill and strength and a magic sword (remember the Samurai class ability) remembering to similarly remove magic items from enemies (my personal preference) or you can use the options in Magic of Rokugan with the Soul Forge feat and the PCs' items can spontaneously awaken to nemuranai.

[Cwymbran-San]

Ok, so the Basic question is: does this make sense in a Rokugan Setting at all? Or do we scrap the idea and create a more generic OA setting, thus removing all the aforementioned logical troubles?

[BWR]

Ok, so the Basic question is: does this make sense in a Rokugan Setting at all? Or do we scrap the idea and create a more generic OA setting, thus removing all the aforementioned logical troubles?

To be so gauche as to quote myself:

In short, RHOD will need so much work to fit into Rokugan that I feel you are better off just writing your own campaign based on/inspired by than trying to force it to work.

Invasions can and do happen in Rokugan but RHOD is very much a D&D adventure and is built on certain expectations and assumptions about the game world and system which are not easily compliant with or normally possible in Rokugan (or even all D&D worlds). You can always rewrite it enough that it will work but at that point it's less "RHOD in Rokugan" and more "an invasion story in Rokugan".

[Talesin]

I've not even heard of Rokugan until today so forgive my ignorance here as this kind of magic may not work in the setting but could a portal be opened up between 2 places, planes or just physical places within the single realm, that has to be sustained by blood sacrifices? (a common theme for why the Red Hand horde attacks Brindol in the first place rather than waiting for the portal to be opened)

This could make sense in that they are attacking the city in order to create a permanent portal between the two locations through the use of the dead souls and also why it there isn't much warning between the horde being detected and the battle for Brindol. This also allows the heroes to attack the Fane and destroy the portal to stop a second invading army.

This does bring up the slight issue of being able to muster forces to defend but there's no reason this couldn't be a two pronged push into a given territory, so the army is actually fighting the Red Hand elsewhere but losing the city of Brindol (or whatever it ends up being) is of cultural/religious/other kind of significance that doesn't want to be lost to the horde.

Of course this could all be crap given my lack of knowledge for the setting.

[BWR]

I've not even heard of Rokugan until today so forgive my ignorance here as this kind of magic may not work in the setting but could a portal be opened up between 2 places, planes or just physical places within the single realm, that has to be sustained by blood sacrifices? (a common theme for why the Red Hand horde attacks Brindol in the first place rather than waiting for the portal to be opened)

This could make sense in that they are attacking the city in order to create a permanent portal between the two locations through the use of the dead souls and also why it there isn't much warning between the horde being detected and the battle for Brindol. This also allows the heroes to attack the Fane and destroy the portal to stop a second invading army.

This does bring up the slight issue of being able to muster forces to defend but there's no reason this couldn't be a two pronged push into a given territory, so the army is actually fighting the Red Hand elsewhere but losing the city of Brindol (or whatever it ends up being) is of cultural/religious/other kind of significance that doesn't want to be lost to the horde.

Of course this could all be crap given my lack of knowledge for the setting.

Yeah, you really need to know how the setting works to make a proper comment on it. Rokugan doesn't really work like most D&D settings (though there are plenty of places in D&D settings where you can do something similar).

There aren't really portals as such in L5R. You have the Festering Pit, which is basically an opening into Hell, and Oblivion's Gate which can open to various spirit realms, but that's it. One was made by a falling god and the other was the culmination of an entire race's efforts and was destroyed at one point. Even individual teleportation magic is rare (never mind the Baraunghar once teleporting an army - an unheard of feat and one that most priests found rather distasteful). So not impossible but highly unlikely and not in keeping with the canon of the setting. Blood magic is definitely a thing but that automatically makes it a Tainted army and Tainted armies tend to be taken very seriously (Iuchiban three times, Daigotsu a couple of times, the Maw, Fu Leng twice, War of Dark Fire, etc.) Now you could argue that the RH moves too quickly for people to mobilize but there aren't a lot of places that really would work. If they can summon an Oni Lord or its spawn (in place of Tiamat) that quickly they don't need to invade to pull it off. If they try it in the four most likely lands it can happen (otherwise it would need to be a naval invasion) they are all either prepared (Crab) damn fast (Unicorn) have almost impassable terrain that makes invading armies really slow (Dragon) or have tons of magic that can get things done quickly (Phoenix).
Really, the only place it makes sense is in Badger lands and they are so small there isn't anything the size of Elsir around.

The politics of Brindol really doesn't work. You need at least one PC of the same Clan as where the adventure happens, and they need some status or else they will likely not be listened to when they try to convince the leaders of what needs to be done. Rokugan is very rigidly hierarchical and people trying to get things done outside of the normal chain of command and propriety are generally ignored at best. Rokugan not a good setting for traditional D&D adventurers which tend to be outside the law. Having a bunch of outsiders (even of the same clan) come in and try to recommend what to do is going to be extra hard to pull off. And the elves wouldn't work because the only active non-humans in Rokugan are the Nezumi (most of the time) and the only people who don't think they are dirty monsters are the Crab and we've already covered what would happen if the Crab were there.

I will say again, you would have to change things around so much to make it fit that it won't really be RHoD anymore.

[swarles]

I'm working on a conversion to 5e, and I'm curious to see what others think of a couple of changes I'm considering.

First, I've never liked the idea of the half-fiend behir, so I would like to replace her with a white dragon. However, a young white dragon is only CR 6, but an adult white dragon is CR 13, which is a pretty wide spread. I will be using the milestone leveling system (i.e. new level upon completion of a chapter), so the party will only be level 7 in chapter 3 when they encounter the dragon in the Thornwastes. A CR 6 would be a fairly easy fight, and a CR 13 would likely be impossible...so now I'm also thinking about rearranging the colors of the dragons based on challenge rating of the various colors.

The new order would be:
* young white dragon at Skull Gorge Bridge (CR 6 + hobgoblin backup vs level 5 party)
* young black dragon at Rhest (CR 7 + Saarvith and minions vs level 6 party)
* young green dragon in the Thornwaste (CR 8 vs level 7 party)
* young red dragon at Brindol (CR 10 vs level 8 party)
* adult blue dragon at the fane (CR 13 vs level 9 party).

I worry a little about Tyrgarun being a CR 13 at level 9, especially with lair actions, but perhaps if I don't keep him aerial it won't be a complete TPK.

Second, my idea for getting the party into the Blackfens is that Koth has bargained with a night hag living in the area (hence the name "Witch Wood") to torment the human leaders to create confusion ahead of the coming horde. Among the papers the party finds at Vraath Keep will be an unsent missive from Koth to Kharn notifying him that an agreement has been made with [insert some name I haven't come up with yet], and "with the head cut off in the village, the vermin will be lost and unable to mount even a paltry resistance in the face of our onslaught." When they return to Drellin's Ferry, they will find that the Town Speaker is in very bad shape, as he can no longer sleep as he is constantly tormented by macabre and grotesque nightmares. If they volunteer the information they found at the keep, they will be told that the missive refers to a night hag rumored to live in the Witch Wood, and it must be her haunting Wiston at night. If they don't, I guess Sertien or someone else will just guess that the hag is to blame. This would give them a decent hook for entering the woods/fens, at which point they would run into a razorfiend and the elves.

The elves could confirm the existence of the hag, as well as her location...but for a price. They are concerned about increased confrontations with lizardfolk that live around the ruins of Rhest, and that something must be riling them up. They will agree to help the party locate the hag if they solve the problem of the lizardfolk (which of course leads into discovery of the Red Hand at the ruins).

Thoughts?

[Fizban]

I'd just not use lair actions then, I don't like them to begin with. The lair is up on the cliff face when the party should be fighting on the bridge unless they somehow all flew up there, so they're not even in the lair. He can still push them off, but that eats normal actions instead of free stuff. The Night Hag stuff seems reasonable, just don't make it contingent on getting the papers from the keep since those are completely optional. Throw in some other skill checks or clues for good measure.

Milestone leveling may be a bit at odds with the gotcha nature of the sidequest points. Skipping half the chapter and still leveling up is a bit weird even if it means more bad guys show up later to make things harder in spite of your not losing xp. If you're running it in a linear fashion then this won't come up.

[Antariuk]

I can't speak for 5E since I have no experience with it, but I can comment on the thematic approach

I'm working on a conversion to 5e, and I'm curious to see what others think of a couple of changes I'm considering.
First, I've never liked the idea of the half-fiend behir, so I would like to replace her with a white dragon. However, a young white dragon is only CR 6, but an adult white dragon is CR 13, which is a pretty wide spread.

I know the feeling, there are some monsters I don't particularly like myself. However, I have come to appreciate them because they challenge me as the GM - what can I do to make this monster/encounter work for me without replacing it wholecloth? Because with your approach I see one problem: too many dragons in the end. RHoD already has a huge draconic cast, adding yet another dragon to the mix is... I dunno, a bit boring maybe? Sure, the players will be thrilled the first and the second time, but they will have to face ~6 dragons in your version (if you plan to run the Aspect of Tiamat in Chapter 5 and count it as a dragon), random encounters notwithstanding.

I will be using the milestone leveling system (i.e. new level upon completion of a chapter), so the party will only be level 7 in chapter 3 when they encounter the dragon in the Thornwastes. A CR 6 would be a fairly easy fight, and a CR 13 would likely be impossible...so now I'm also thinking about rearranging the colors of the dragons based on challenge rating of the various colors.

The new order would be:
* young white dragon at Skull Gorge Bridge (CR 6 + hobgoblin backup vs level 5 party)
* young black dragon at Rhest (CR 7 + Saarvith and minions vs level 6 party)
* young green dragon in the Thornwaste (CR 8 vs level 7 party)
* young red dragon at Brindol (CR 10 vs level 8 party)
* adult blue dragon at the fane (CR 13 vs level 9 party).

Leveling based on milestones sounds fairly reasonable, seems like a lot of folks did it with RHoD and I can see the appeal. But re-arranging the draconic colors based on the challenge rating? Reminds me of the phrase "color-coded for your convenience!". I'd rather turn something upside down in that sequence and have dragons not appear in order of threat level, that is a bit too arcade-like, no?

Second, my idea for getting the party into the Blackfens is that Koth has bargained with a night hag living in the area (hence the name "Witch Wood") to torment the human leaders to create confusion ahead of the coming horde. Among the papers the party finds at Vraath Keep will be an unsent missive from Koth to Kharn notifying him that an agreement has been made with [insert some name I haven't come up with yet], and "with the head cut off in the village, the vermin will be lost and unable to mount even a paltry resistance in the face of our onslaught." When they return to Drellin's Ferry, they will find that the Town Speaker is in very bad shape, as he can no longer sleep as he is constantly tormented by macabre and grotesque nightmares. If they volunteer the information they found at the keep, they will be told that the missive refers to a night hag rumored to live in the Witch Wood, and it must be her haunting Wiston at night. If they don't, I guess Sertien or someone else will just guess that the hag is to blame. This would give them a decent hook for entering the woods/fens, at which point they would run into a razorfiend and the elves.

The elves could confirm the existence of the hag, as well as her location...but for a price. They are concerned about increased confrontations with lizardfolk that live around the ruins of Rhest, and that something must be riling them up. They will agree to help the party locate the hag if they solve the problem of the lizardfolk (which of course leads into discovery of the Red Hand at the ruins).

Remember that - as written in RHoD - the elves come into play when the players follow the Elsir trail north of Brindol, which isn't necessarily "in the Witch Wood". I'm only saying this because the Witch Wood is quite large and if the players were intend on crossing it diagonally they might lose a lot of valuable time. Also, if the elves are encountered further south, the players might question why they are bothered by the lizardfolk of Rhest to begin with. I guess what I'm trying to say is: check the distances in the map with the timeline of your adjustments and see if the result is feasible.
Other than that: I really like your idea! Should help to provide some directions in case the party doesn't quite know what to do with the information they have.

[endur]

Because with your approach I see one problem: too many dragons in the end. RHoD already has a huge draconic cast, adding yet another dragon to the mix is... I dunno, a bit boring maybe? Sure, the players will be thrilled the first and the second time, but they will have to face ~6 dragons in your version (if you plan to run the Aspect of Tiamat in Chapter 5 and count it as a dragon), random encounters notwithstanding.

The name of the game is "Dungeons and Dragons", so I don't really see a problem with six dragons. Especially since most non-Dragon campaigns rarely feature more than one or two dragons.

[Antariuk]

Fair enough

[Domigorgon]

I have previously shared my NPC illustrations elsewhere on the boards, but since I am currently running this campaign I have added some RHOD-specific NPC Cards to the collection.

You can find them in this Facebook gallery!

Hope you like. :)

[Zero_Knight]

Bravo on this thread being so useful and relevant for almost 2 years I think.

I'm hoping it's not too late to weigh in on my take of some of the campaign. My group is just coming up to the Ghostlord and I think I have a good way of handling it.

My game is based in Eberron and I've used fluff from AsIanCross (high quality work). My Ghostlord will be based in the Mournland using a complex like the one from Shadows of the Last War. This should take the possible smack down from the Staff down quite a ways as healing works at half strength at best, not considering the lich could make the saving throw vs the Heal spell to further reduce it.

To give him some character I remade my Ghostlord as a Artificer. This gives him some access to getting a high Spell Resistance.

That being said never underestimate the dice or the PC group to not be inventive. (8 players btw) So I'm looking for ideas to wear them down a little so they don't want to take him on. Traps, monsters, or anything else to put in the complex.

Thanks.

[shaddy_24]

Bravo on this thread being so useful and relevant for almost 2 years I think.

I'm hoping it's not too late to weigh in on my take of some of the campaign. My group is just coming up to the Ghostlord and I think I have a good way of handling it.

My game is based in Eberron and I've used fluff from AsIanCross (high quality work). My Ghostlord will be based in the Mournland using a complex like the one from Shadows of the Last War. This should take the possible smack down from the Staff down quite a ways as healing works at half strength at best, not considering the lich could make the saving throw vs the Heal spell to further reduce it.

To give him some character I remade my Ghostlord as a Artificer. This gives him some access to getting a high Spell Resistance.

That being said never underestimate the dice or the PC group to not be inventive. (8 players btw) So I'm looking for ideas to wear them down a little so they don't want to take him on. Traps, monsters, or anything else to put in the complex.

Thanks.

If it wouldn't be too damaging, you could use a forbiddance spell to cut off a good section of his sanctum. That limits their movement and options, and hits them with a chunk of damage every time they enter the area.

[Seward]

To give him some character I remade my Ghostlord as a Artificer. This gives him some access to getting a high Spell Resistance.

That being said never underestimate the dice or the PC group to not be inventive. (8 players btw) So I'm looking for ideas to wear them down a little so they don't want to take him on. Traps, monsters, or anything else to put in the complex.

Thanks.

What I've found is that the tougher the fight with the Red Hand allies is (Ulwai, her minions and the Half-Fiend Behir) the more exhausted the party will be and the less willing they'll be to invade the Ghostlord's lair with killing everything on their mind.

This is doubly true if you hint strongly that being anywhere in the ghostlands after dark is a BAD idea. Since normal mounts won't enter the ghostlands, it's usually noonish before they even get to the lair even if they've planned well. That leaves out any 8 hour rest periods before nightfall, (unless Pathfinder Nap Stack is an option) so whatever resources they have at that time is all they're going to get.

Ulwai has scouts in the mouth of the dragon, they should see any dust-up with the behir and respond by running to alert everybody else. They will buff up and potion up. If the party comes through the mouth, they can do a final retreat out through the entrance corridor, setting off all of the ghost lions. If they come through the entrance, the running fight can involve a final retreat through the mouth. If both avenues of escape are blocked, the RHOD folks can retreat deeper into the Ghostlord's lair, deliberately stirring up the undead (dying, but maybe taking the party with them). The monks are actually fairly dangerous in close quarters combat if you use those weird grapple-constrict weapons after they're blessed, hasted and bull strengthed.

Ulwai has haste, invisibility and feather fall. Stopping her escape, or trying to, in all the chaos often burns a lot of resources. If she gets clear at all to where she can cast Phantom Steed, you aren't catching her ever. Usually she doesn't have time to do much more than cast buffs and a few sound bursts (Stunning clumps of enemies near her buffed monks can be very trying for a party) before going invisible and fleeing, but essentially any assault on the Behir can rapidly involve all of the RHOD folks in a single brawl, with some of the Ghostlord guardians being mixed into a three-way fight.

When the party survives that encounter they'll have burned off a lot of spells and resources, need time to recover hitpoints and search/loot Ulwai's area, causing minute-buffs to wear off. At that point a decision is made - do we go in with our 10-minute buffs remaining and hope we're able to cope with an angry lich at the end or do we maybe shout into the dust-strewn corridors that we want to negotiate? While the Lair isn't all that dangerous after the initial dust-up, the PCs have no way of knowing that. When knocking on the door results in a running, dangerous, ever escalating fight, caution is usually indicated unless they really had an easy time with all of it.

If you don't beef up the ghostlord, what I like to do is run a double-bluff. It negotiates through its bonedrinkers, then sends in its "animal companion" to pick up the phylactery (itself wildshaped to a skeletal lion buffed with things like anti-life shell, all 5 elements of resist or prot energy, barskskin, freedom of movement, stoneskin etc - all defensive things). If the party gets violent after it has the phylactery it simply flees and hides. The "Ghostlord" is never visible to be targeted though, so most parties won't blow their final resources on a mere animal companion.

Finally - if they do burn out the ghostlord, they still probably won't rest in the ghostlands. Catching them with Bhargest Reavers while resting or worse, Marked for Death on the way out when their resources are at a very low ebb will challenge them, even if the ghostlord lair did not. Ulwai has Whispering Wind, it's only a standard action to cast. Make sure she has a chance to set up some kind of ambush with it. It's even better if the party spellcrafts her casting the spell just before she runs away. That should put them in a time-pressure bind if nothing else will - she's got help within 10 miles or so who knows she's in trouble. (even if you intend no such ambush - like those encounters have already happened, Ulwai might just be running a bluff by casting the spell, and that's totally in character for her)

[ComaVision]

Running RhoD currently, last game my group took Skull Gorge Bridge. I'm not sure if they intend to destroy the bridge or not, and Jorr died during the Koth fight (decided to reinvent him as a Psion) so I won't be dropping hints through him.

I'm curious if any other DMs have had uberchargers in their groups? Ozzy got one shot, since 30' up isn't a big deal for Enlarge + Spiked Chain. I had some hobgoblins flee from bridge after failing a save to Glitterdust so now the horde can know about him.

I've made some "anti-charger" hobgoblin groups (consisting of longspear wielders and archers with the Ready Shot feat).

I'm thinking the dragon in Rhest will stay clear while its rider plinks away with a bow (considering Explosive Rune arrows).

For Wyrmlord Kharn, I'm considering a DMM:Quicken Cleric with the Elusive Target feat.

I haven't looked at the Ghostlord or final fight in much detail yet.

[Seward]

So the thing about Ozzy, and dragons in general is that one of three things happen, the way they are designed.

1. The party gets on top of it, and the dragon die very quickly, because the party focuses on nothing except killing the dragon before it can act.

2. Like #1, except they don't manage to kill the dragon. Watching most of its hp evaporate in a single round, the dragon flees (even a withdraw is 300' of range and usually a medium sized dragon can find total cover in that much distance. If it feels it can suck up AOOs, then it can do a run action and flee almost out of long range spells and its AC is usually enough to defend against one round of that+longbows fishing for 20s before it flees again and gets all the way out of range).

3. The dragon kicks the party's ass, because they didn't take it seriously enough and did something other than focus all of their action economy on taking it down. (there are endless stories of parties being TPK'd, driven off with several unrecoverable dead comrades etc by Ozzie+archers. There are fewer stories of the party getting on top of him, but enough that there's all that advice on how to beef up the dragons. The module as written seems to assume case #2 is normal, the party drives off the dragon at Skull Gorge and Rhest, then deals with the other stuff. Only the Brindol battle with the red dragon are you really assumed to be supposed to kill the dragon to "win" rather than driving it off)

You get a lot more of #3 if you weren't expecting a dragon encounter (you didn't scout, interrogate prisoners, etc). A D&D party ready for a dragon is one that generally will kill or drive it off in the opening rounds.

This isn't an ubercharger thing, it's just a "party working together" thing. I've seen it done a zillion different ways. (I had a pounce-kitty wildshape build when I played RHOD. I didn't kill dragons with it because their AC was too high and because I couldn't ready a charge - they were too damn mobile. I was, however, able to clear away the other distractions pretty efficiently and had a decent record against wyrmlords. Character died at Brindol taking out Ulwai in one action and drawing all the bodyguard attacks. Charging has its issues....what I did on the dragons was things like faerie fire to prevent invisible escapes, murderous mist to try to blind it, hell even produce flame to try to get the last few hp...used my druid stuff. I had a stack of pyrotechnics scrolls during the Battle of Brindol which I'd found useful (50' diameter blindness) in large scale engagements in past play - we lured the red dragon into a trap by pissing him off - putting out his fires using the scrolls as fast as he was setting them)

In Rhest, yes, if Reggie knows that Ozzie was killed while doing a flyby breath attack he'll likely stay airborne way out of reach in any encounter where he isn't surprised in his lair, and both will flee if effectively engaged short of killing Reggie (eg, start getting bombarded by ranged spells and effective archery fire). That said, Reggie has some other options if that ubercharger doesn't have a swim speed. Swim UNDER the party and breathe on them. Sucks to be them. Also helps vs fireballs and archery. You can even get some melee on underwater if the enemy didn't stock up on piercing weapons and swim speed spells. Another fairly obvious counter is to designate Hobgoblin Regular #7 to stand between the high value target and the charge guy, at sufficient distance to prevent any reach he has from defeating the tactic. Just keep interposing useless minions until you run out. Difficult terrain can also help.

As for counters, have Doom Hand Clerics start racking a simple obscuring mist spell instead of inflict light wounds. Blocking vision is sovereign against charge builds (and reach-oriented builds and optimized archers). For the sorcerers, use their potions of fly before engaging, etc.

When I played RHOD, we had two good scouts in the (5 person, at expected level in each round) party (a ranger and my druid), so we scouted stuff. At Skull Gorge, this backfired as the dragon rolled high and spotted us in spite of camoflauge spells and good ranks in hide/move silently. We had a literal "running" battle (us running toward the other party members). I was never so happy for woodland stride....

Still and all, Ozzy ended up fighting a lot of us solo, and while we weren't at our best we beat him up some, chasing him back to his cover. He drank healing potions, we healed and buffed and a stand-up-fight ensued near the bridge, which was pretty brutal. In hindsight we should have retreated and tried again later - but we didn't know he had near infinite healing potions or how effective the hob archers would be. Had it not been for a timely glitterdust sticking right when he was about to tear up our flying barbarian it might have been ugly, instead the wounded, blinded Ozzy fled. (and a good thing for him, as we nearly dropped him with long range stuff before he escaped). Rhest went better because we took steps and had careful planning to focus fire whenever the dragon was visible but Reggie still got away. By the time of Brindol our anti-dragon tactics (and class abilities) had improved to the point where we ganked him quickly. The Behir was also a non-event, because he starts in a cave with only one entrance and doesn't have the 150' fly speed that makes dragons so hard to pin down. (our problem there was Ulwai getting away grr)

[Zero_Knight]

So far my group of 8 has only killed Koth in their campaign thru Rhest in just a straight play thru. The Scout was taken prisoner by Reggie and the group was able to rescue and assassinate the Wyrmlord and Reggie in one go the second time around but only because I played them to fear returning to Khul and report failure.

My group is a mixed bag of personalities and so far none have stood out as being Uber-anything. My only optimized threats from the PCs are the Tri-Kreen TWF Ranger is having issues just hitting the rank and file AC of 18+ and the only other major threat is the Ordained Champion who has only killed 3 rank and file since the game began.

That said I am running E6 and with the party reaching 6th level at the end of Rhest I'm wondering when any of the characters will start showing some muscle. Anyone have an idea what the average wealth should be for such a group?

[Seward]

RHOD assumes a party of 4 people, level 5 in first chapter, gaining about a level each chapter.

a party of 8 level 5s is not the same as 4 level 6s. They'll be stronger in some areas and weaker in others, and in particular extremely vulnerable to big area effects (dragons, sorcerers) and ineffective vs high AC/hitpoint enemies (dragons). Your scout getting captured is an example of what happens when skills and spells aren't at the level designers expected (by Rhest they're assuming 3rd level spell backup, both arcane and divine. Your scout that got captured should have been flying, invisible, able to go underwater and swim etc etc, in addition to having maxed stealth and perception skills and possibly some minor item support like eyes of the eagle. At level 5, 3rd level spells might not be present (if you have a sorcerer say, instead of a wizard) and you have significantly less cash in the wealth-by-level (and RHOD is bad about giving out loot to help with that, most of the loot is the staff of healing and in chapter 5).

If they're only level 6 going into the Ghostlord, they will probably be ok for that chapter, but if they're still level 6 at Battle of Brindol (quite likely, the xp from chapter 4 is a bit light) they are going to get splattered. (most descriptions have a party level 9+, my experience with a level 8, 5 person party was that it was pretty brutal without any adjustments except a slight increase in the non-boss monsters to allow for the extra character) The encounters where they will struggle will be the Dragon rampage, the 3rd+ wave of Streets of Blood and the ambush (with the sorcerers tossing out lightning bolts with abandon, starting from surprise - it is not uncommon for most of the party to eat 4 lightning bolts before they get to act and at least one simply dead because the assassin got some licks in before all 4 lightning bolts hit). The final encounter might also be tough because they'll be flat out of spells, scrolls and potions, although if they have some wands or are primarily melee/archer types this might not be as large a handicap. Obviously if people die in the prior 3 tough encounters, the final encounter might result in a TPK and failure.

All of this assumes that 8 level 6 characters can survive Marked for Death. Those blackspawn can drop a level 6 PC with a single full attack or crit when buffed by the greater bhargests, and 3 of them can be dimension doored right next to the squishies to open the fight. (the encounter is set up for the blackspawn to have enlarge, bull strength and rage running on them, enlarge, bull strength, invisible on the bhargests, and dim-door in to open it up once the party starts engaging the decoys. My experience is the blackspawn do a crapload of damage before the party gets organized and right as they start getting effective vs the blackspawn, the enlarged, bull strengthed, sometimes blinkin bhargests wade in)

So think about Brindol. Unlike most games, you may need to adjust difficulty DOWN to keep the game fun for 8 under-leveled, under-equipped PCs.

[Zero_Knight]

It's actually funny that the Ranger/Scout didn't get caught because of under equipment or leveling. He opted to jump in the water to be "safe" while the Razorfiend was Spring Attacking others on the platform from the water.

Needless to say the Razorfiend found the Ranger much easier prey and after reducing him to 0 HP I had Reggie carry him away while the other dealt with the building.

Formed up a nice little ambush using the Ranger as bait as they were on their way back to the Hill. Group finally downed a dragon, second Wyrmlord, and saved the PC before he bled out.

They have some stuff in the works from Magewrights and NPC artificers while they recover and make plans for the Ghostlord. They will find out they have to go to the Mournland after the Mercenary gold encounter. We'll see how things work out.

[Coidzor]

Thoughts?

If you're keeping the starting level at 6, then you should have them be at 8th level for the Thornwastes. Level 6 start. Level 7 after Koth and the Bridge. Level 8 after Saarvith and Rhest. Level 9 after Ulwei and Ghostlord. Level 10 after the Battle of Brindol. There might even be enough secondary objectives and other stuff to justify another level in there depending upon how they did and what kind of haul they got in terms of VP. If you add in an extra boss along with taking the gold to the mercenaries, that'd be another level under their belt before the next section and, ultimately, the finale.

You/the players/the module generally want the PCs taking the road from Drellin's Ferry to Brindol(or skirting around Brindol) and then up the road from Brindol to the Blackfens instead of overlanding it or rafting down the river. Why are you putting your players on the path to getting into another boss fight with a Night Hag in order to get them into the Black Fens?