[BitP:R] BleachitP: Reborn: OOC Thread 13

[KnightDisciple]

...Wait, so when at all are the kids from the gym encounter going to be able to take on Cassandra? She's handily fighting four foes, one of them a veteran of such things. And this seems like one of the first honest hits she's taken.

[Wahrheit]

All four are also engaging in straightforward, open combat, which is her specialty. The gym kids seem like the sort to come up with sneakier attack methods, which I imagine would be more effective. Rex, for one, is going to be a lot more underhanded next time.

[Kayne650]

She's handily fighting four foes, three of whom barely know what they're doing, and one of whom is trying to keep the other three safe. Yes, she's doing well, but that's mostly because they still don't know what she can do, and keep in mind that she's only landed one hit as well, and that was just a grazing blow on Izumi. Except for Rex's last suicide attempt, the kids have taken very little damage. Add that to the fact that Izumi hasn't used Shikai yet, and Nakahiro hasn't really gotten into full swing; the battle isn't as one-sided as you seem to think it is.

[horngeek]

Yeah, in most cases, it's the kids first time fighting... well, an actual intelligent opponent, for real. Izumi's never fought an intelligent opponent in a freeform (by which I mean for real, no specific style) fight.

So, yeah. Next fight should be a lot more difficult for Cassandra.

And Izumi doesn't know Shikai yet. Her Z-pac has spoken to her, but it's more of a 'don't give up now' thing, it hasn't revealed itself to her fully yet.

[Wahrheit]

Rex is relatively experienced, but against Hollows. Which are a different animal entirely, and his parents never let him do more than watch from a distance when they fought intelligent ones.

[Kayne650]

And consider Cassandra's other fights: beating up Mihail, then getting curbstomped by Elder. Then sneaking up on Hakusai, and losing to him anyway. And Hakusai mainly used her weakness: non-melee combat. Kido and the like are really effective against her, since she has no real defense against them. She doesn't even have Seiko's ability to cut through them, because the vast majority of her experience is against people who fight with mundane means.

[Dorizzit]

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She's handily fighting four foes, three of whom barely know what they're doing, and one of whom is trying to keep the other three safe. Yes, she's doing well, but that's mostly because they still don't know what she can do, and keep in mind that she's only landed one hit as well, and that was just a grazing blow on Izumi. Except for Rex's last suicide attempt, the kids have taken very little damage. Add that to the fact that Izumi hasn't used Shikai yet, and Nakahiro hasn't really gotten into full swing; the battle isn't as one-sided as you seem to think it is.

Nakahiro can't really get into full swing; he doesn't have many objects with him, and the environment does not lend itself to improvised weapons. With some prep time and more experience, Nakahiro has the potential to be extremely dangerous, but right now he's not even a threat.

[Kuroimaken]

She's handily fighting four foes, three of whom barely know what they're doing, and one of whom is trying to keep the other three safe. Yes, she's doing well, but that's mostly because they still don't know what she can do, and keep in mind that she's only landed one hit as well, and that was just a grazing blow on Izumi. Except for Rex's last suicide attempt, the kids have taken very little damage. Add that to the fact that Izumi hasn't used Shikai yet, and Nakahiro hasn't really gotten into full swing; the battle isn't as one-sided as you seem to think it is.

And Hasunaga would be undamaged and dominant in the fight if Rex hadn't pulled it off.

Actually, Cassandra in her current state is pretty much a non-adversary for Hasunaga if she keeps her current tactics up. Regular bullets don't even graze his armor, and if her attacks remain this limited in number, Hasunaga should be able to easily cover the kids as he fights her.

[Frozen_Feet]

Fixed a rather glaring typo in Episode 6. I suggest people, especially Shiro, read this post again.

*mutter* how didn't I notice it the first time? *mutter*

[Kasanip]

I am returned from holiday. Happy New Year
I don't know what was missed. Only to have read a little of ooc, so to write post for it.


Great Windstorm
大暴風 Daiboufuu

Great Storm Lord
大嵐王 Dairanou

Wind Sword
風剣 Fuuken

Great Wind
大風 Ookaze

Maiden of Air
空気の乙女 Kuuki no otome

Revered Wind Goddess of the Compass' Directions
磁針の方位の風孁貴神 Jishin　no houi no kazemenomuchinokami

[Kuroimaken]

I am returned from holiday. Happy New Year
I don't know what was missed. Only to have read a little of ooc, so to write post for it.


Great Windstorm
大暴風 Daiboufuu

Great Storm Lord
大嵐王 Dairanou

Wind Sword
風剣 Fuuken

Great Wind
大風 Ookaze

Maiden of Air
空気の乙女 Kuuki no otome

Revered Wind Goddess of the Compass' Directions
磁針の方位の風孁貴神 Jishin　no houi no kazemenomuchinokami

Interesting. I must confess I couldn't find the Japanese word for compass directions, so I used compass instead...

What is the "hou" between "dai" and "fuu" supposed to mean, Kasanip-san?

[Kasanip]

Interesting. I must confess I couldn't find the Japanese word for compass directions, so I used compass instead...

What is the "hou" between "dai" and "fuu" supposed to mean, Kasanip-san?

It means 'violence' and 'wild'.

[Kuroimaken]

Thank you for your gracious lesson. m(_ _)m

[Prime32]

Aaand now I'm picturing some wacky BitP omake called "Teach me, Kasanip-sensei!". You did that on purpose, didn't you Kuro?

[Kuroimaken]

Aaand now I'm picturing some wacky BitP omake called "Teach me, Kasanip-sensei!". You did that on purpose, didn't you Kuro?

I SWEAR I have no idea what you're talking about. <.< >.>

[Frozen_Feet]

Waiting for Shiro and terry to make a number of themselves in Ep. 6, waiting for Callos in Soul Society and Hueco Mundo, waiting for, uh, tgva, Kayne and Dorizzit also in Soul Society.

Waiting for horngeek in Railgun ITP.

[Wahrheit]

Poor Rex didn't realize that in order for Unstoppable Rage to work you have to be, you know, unstoppable.

[horngeek]

On the plus side, he's probably gotten a girlfriend out of the entire thing. So, bit of a win.

[Kuroimaken]

On the plus side, he's probably gotten a girlfriend out of the entire thing. So, bit of a win.

He's also gotten a major scolding out of that.

In fact, they all did.

Soon as Hasunaga is done stomping Cassandra, he'll have some choice words for them.

*ponders adding stare from the depths of hell as a power to Hasunaga*

[Draken]

Waiting on horngeek in Soul Society.

I will be damned the day beheading the man and burning his corpse is all it takes to stop one of my characters.

[Kuroimaken]

Waiting on horngeek in Soul Society.

I will be damned the day beheading the man and burning his corpse is all it takes to stop one of my characters.

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Relevant comment is relevant.

[tgva8889]

Sorry I'm taking so long, work is piling on me again.

[Callos_DeTerran]

So, a thought occurred to me while I was thinking about where to go in the Genoveva fight and how to handle the whole slew of attacks being launched at her (and more and more on the way). This thought being...

Arrancar suck. Well...there's more to it then that, but it essentially comes down to the fact that an arrancar probably can't even pose a challenge a shinigami of equivalent (or even lesser) power if said shinigami has even a basic grasp of kido, let alone if they could be considered an expert or master at it. Now, keep in mind, that I very much enjoy playing my arrancar, I just want to point out the massive disparity in battle options and power between shinigami and arrancar. An arrancar has their release (and Segunda Etapa if they are lucky as hell)...but shinigami have their zanpakuto that release to similar effect, though I point out that (in canon) arrancar releases were usually revealed to be a significant boost in power but we sorta smoothed that out in favor of balance (a good thing). Arrancar have sonido...shinigami have shunpo. Arrancar can use cero (and some) and bala...shinigammi have hideously more options with hado. Arrancar have...well...they don't have a single gorram parallel to bakudo except Negacion, except a vast vast majority of arrancar can't use Negacion and it also has nowhere NEAR the width of possibilities of bakudo. This...is a problem. It's a huge problem we haven't really addressed. As is, there's two ways for an arrancar to counter a shinigami proficient shinigami (which are much more prolific in this game, thanks to Draken ), those being...

A) Be absurdly more powerful then the shinigami in question to balance out the variability of kido (so that hado and bakudo become less appealing options).

or

B) Have some haxx defense that somehow negates or circumvents kido. Sure, hierro could be accused of this but all it does is absorb damage. Hado still triumphs over it by virtue of the sheer amount of damage it can put out and bakudo...lets not get into bakudo.

Both of those methods suck arse, especially in the situation like what Genoveva finds herself in. Either she's so strong as to shrug off kido/dodge it completely or she gets utterly friggin pwned (how I hate that term...) because arrancar have no parallels/defenses against kido. And saying she's strong enough to shrug off the kido of captains when chanted is a whole can of worms in and of itself, so trying to avoid that route. But it's not just Genoveva though, it's every arrancar. This gap only becomes worse since a lot of characters use no chanted kido and still expect measurable effects when it cuts the power of said kido in half, or the chant is simply breezed by in a single post (which people have been a LOT better about lately, but still...).

My proposal is to expand the arrancar arsenal a bit to close the gap that kido forces between the two enemies. I've already had Genoveva start doing something of the kind, what with her expanding on her sonido skills (like the thunder clap she used to deflect a kido/deafen herself) but a fix like that can only be carried so far before it becomes ridiculous in and of itself. So I tried thinking up a new ability/power source/etc. for the arrancar to tap and I hit upon something I think I like so I thought I'd toss it out to see what everyone thinks.

Philters & Tonics

These specially created 'drugs' are brewed for the specific purpose of unlocking the latent evolutionary potential within every arrancar and hollow. When injected, they produce startling effects in the user that are temporary in regards to tonics but a bit longer lasting in terms of philters.

When injected, a tonic brings about a very specific 'mutation' in the user that always behaves in the intended fashion. A spitsear tonic, for example, allows the user to spit clouds of acidic flame from their mouths until it wears off, the power of which depend on the user. Some are purely offensive, like the above mentioned spitsear, hive-hands that allow the user to throw clouds of small hollow parasites at their foes, or deathgrips that turn ordinary hands into bestial clawed appendages of frightful strength. (just for a few examples) Others are more passive or defensive, such as a mender that would temporarily suppress an arrancar's hierro to enhance natural healing, boosters that enhance speed and strength, to more fantastic tonics that stir visible mutations such as armored shells, wings, and so one. The one thing all tonics have in common is they are temporary. The mutations they bring about are actively resisted by an arrancar's/hollow's body which, eventually, forces the user's body to return to it's normal state. They are also, largely, addictive and can be quite painful to use. Those with more fantastic and physical effects can be excruciating to use, despite the abilities granted in combat. Typically, how long a tonic lasts depends on the kind of tonic. Those that prompt physical change or grant a new form of attack (spitsear for example) typically don't last long or can only be used a certain number of times because they require greater energy then 'passive' tonics that can last anywhere from five minutes to several hours.

Philters blur the line between augmentation and actual mutation. They are never taken during combat but instead require chemical baths, surgery, and other treatments in order to function and are usually permanent (or last for several months before needing to be replenished). These are drastic effects, but typically just enhancements of hollow/arrancar abilities. One could be fitted with unique arm that boosts the power of ceros and balas used through it, or gain a hierro that could adapt in minor ways to the attacks being used against it (such as becoming more resistant to fire if the arrancar is bombarded with fire within a short period of time). These are physically taxing ordeals though and only one philter is typically used at a time.



I have an idea for their source and why they weren't developed until now, but I wanted to see everyone's opinions on the base idea before going into the more complicated stuff. Obviously individual philters and tonics would need to be examined to determine if they were over-powered or not, but I assume everyone here already guessed that.

[riccaru]

So, a thought occurred to me while I was thinking about where to go in the Genoveva fight and how to handle the whole slew of attacks being launched at her (and more and more on the way). This thought being...

Arrancar suck. Well...there's more to it then that, but it essentially comes down to the fact that an arrancar probably can't even pose a challenge a shinigami of equivalent (or even lesser) power if said shinigami has even a basic grasp of kido, let alone if they could be considered an expert or master at it. Now, keep in mind, that I very much enjoy playing my arrancar, I just want to point out the massive disparity in battle options and power between shinigami and arrancar. An arrancar has their release (and Segunda Etapa if they are lucky as hell)...but shinigami have their zanpakuto that release to similar effect, though I point out that (in canon) arrancar releases were usually revealed to be a significant boost in power but we sorta smoothed that out in favor of balance (a good thing). Arrancar have sonido...shinigami have shunpo. Arrancar can use cero (and some) and bala...shinigammi have hideously more options with hado. Arrancar have...well...they don't have a single gorram parallel to bakudo except Negacion, except a vast vast majority of arrancar can't use Negacion and it also has nowhere NEAR the width of possibilities of bakudo. This...is a problem. It's a huge problem we haven't really addressed. As is, there's two ways for an arrancar to counter a shinigami proficient shinigami (which are much more prolific in this game, thanks to Draken ), those being...

A) Be absurdly more powerful then the shinigami in question to balance out the variability of kido (so that hado and bakudo become less appealing options).

or

B) Have some haxx defense that somehow negates or circumvents kido. Sure, hierro could be accused of this but all it does is absorb damage. Hado still triumphs over it by virtue of the sheer amount of damage it can put out and bakudo...lets not get into bakudo.

Both of those methods suck arse, especially in the situation like what Genoveva finds herself in. Either she's so strong as to shrug off kido/dodge it completely or she gets utterly friggin pwned (how I hate that term...) because arrancar have no parallels/defenses against kido. And saying she's strong enough to shrug off the kido of captains when chanted is a whole can of worms in and of itself, so trying to avoid that route. But it's not just Genoveva though, it's every arrancar. This gap only becomes worse since a lot of characters use no chanted kido and still expect measurable effects when it cuts the power of said kido in half, or the chant is simply breezed by in a single post (which people have been a LOT better about lately, but still...).

My proposal is to expand the arrancar arsenal a bit to close the gap that kido forces between the two enemies. I've already had Genoveva start doing something of the kind, what with her expanding on her sonido skills (like the thunder clap she used to deflect a kido/deafen herself) but a fix like that can only be carried so far before it becomes ridiculous in and of itself. So I tried thinking up a new ability/power source/etc. for the arrancar to tap and I hit upon something I think I like so I thought I'd toss it out to see what everyone thinks.

Philters & Tonics

These specially created 'drugs' are brewed for the specific purpose of unlocking the latent evolutionary potential within every arrancar and hollow. When injected, they produce startling effects in the user that are temporary in regards to tonics but a bit longer lasting in terms of philters.

When injected, a tonic brings about a very specific 'mutation' in the user that always behaves in the intended fashion. A spitsear tonic, for example, allows the user to spit clouds of acidic flame from their mouths until it wears off, the power of which depend on the user. Some are purely offensive, like the above mentioned spitsear, hive-hands that allow the user to throw clouds of small hollow parasites at their foes, or deathgrips that turn ordinary hands into bestial clawed appendages of frightful strength. (just for a few examples) Others are more passive or defensive, such as a mender that would temporarily suppress an arrancar's hierro to enhance natural healing, boosters that enhance speed and strength, to more fantastic tonics that stir visible mutations such as armored shells, wings, and so one. The one thing all tonics have in common is they are temporary. The mutations they bring about are actively resisted by an arrancar's/hollow's body which, eventually, forces the user's body to return to it's normal state. They are also, largely, addictive and can be quite painful to use. Those with more fantastic and physical effects can be excruciating to use, despite the abilities granted in combat. Typically, how long a tonic lasts depends on the kind of tonic. Those that prompt physical change or grant a new form of attack (spitsear for example) typically don't last long or can only be used a certain number of times because they require greater energy then 'passive' tonics that can last anywhere from five minutes to several hours.

Philters blur the line between augmentation and actual mutation. They are never taken during combat but instead require chemical baths, surgery, and other treatments in order to function and are usually permanent (or last for several months before needing to be replenished). These are drastic effects, but typically just enhancements of hollow/arrancar abilities. One could be fitted with unique arm that boosts the power of ceros and balas used through it, or gain a hierro that could adapt in minor ways to the attacks being used against it (such as becoming more resistant to fire if the arrancar is bombarded with fire within a short period of time). These are physically taxing ordeals though and only one philter is typically used at a time.



I have an idea for their source and why they weren't developed until now, but I wanted to see everyone's opinions on the base idea before going into the more complicated stuff. Obviously individual philters and tonics would need to be examined to determine if they were over-powered or not, but I assume everyone here already guessed that.

Sounds like Vincent will be very busy.

Also gives me wonderful ideas for Sereg.

[strawberryman]

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Request: If you're gonna quote a wall of text, please use spoilers in the quote. Pet peeve. Just like spoilering huge images. Nothing against walls of text or huge images, of course.

Could just ignore me. I'm loony like that.

Anyhow, as for the idea, I support it, albeit conservatively. I definitely believe that they should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise, looks good.

[Wahrheit]

Indeed. Rex is a lot more experienced than the gym kids, but that's not saying much. And somehow I don't think he'll mind dating Izumi, though he'll wish he could have found a less painful way of getting there. And to anyone who says they're moving awfully fast, well, I'd imagine that fighting for your lives together against an abomination to nature is a bonding experience.

Anyway, time for me to try to muster up the will to work on a new sketch of Magatsu. And/or an avatar of him.

[horngeek]

And to anyone who says they're moving awfully fast, well, I'd imagine that fighting for your lives together against an abomination to nature is a bonding experience.

This.

Oh, so very much.

Incidentally, I find myself wanting to have Izumi's older brother pop up at some point. She's rather embaressed by him.

Considering he'd be based off this guy, she probably has a good reason for being so.

[Kuroimaken]

I'm sorry, I can't resist this one.

So what you're saying is that in order to catch up with Shinigami, Arrancar should be on drugs?

[tgva8889]

I agree that Arrancar are weaker overall compared to equally-powered Shinigami...but I also think that Hollows in general aren't supposed to really fight 1 v. 1 and expect to win. The reason Hollows are a threat is because there's a lot of them. I mean, Gillians are basically a million Hollows (or at least a very large number of them) put together, aren't they?

Just my two cents on it. I like the idea of tonics and philters, though do they really have to be addictive? Also, philters kind of just sound like...well, "your character should just train and get better at shooting Ceros" or something. I guess that particular example seems weaker than the other (altering Hierro). I like the idea, of, say, a "slippery Hierro" that caused binding effects to be weaker on the target.

***

On another note, I think Bakudo can be a problem themselves. Bakudo generally come down to "Save or Suck/Die" effects, rather than an option in combat equivalent to sword strikes and energy blasts. You either ignore them completely or they hit and you're completely broken down. At least, that's the expectation for several of them. Maybe we as players need to expect a little less from our binding spells. I know that for any of my characters that were going to use them, I would only have them cause maybe a few seconds delay on the target, enough to perhaps stun them for a moment to allow for a follow-up attack.

Maybe I'm reading into your argument wrong, Callos.

***

On moving fast with relations, that reminds me of something I have to get done...

[Frozen_Feet]

I guess the main reason it's skewed so badly is that in canon, Arrancar were that strong, as theoretically they were balanced Vizards, not ordinary Shinigami. Of course, the other reason is that Kido is vastly more common in our setting, and sees heavy abuse in some battles like Callos said.

I'm largely indifferent to the idea proposed - mainly because the three Arrancar characters I do have (and the one Hollowing) I percieve as already having enough counters against Kido.

However, few things I have to say about the matter. First, Hado Vs. Cero - in a stand off between Shinigami and Arrancar, the Arrancar should win because their energy attacks are faster to generate than Kido - in the case of unchanted Hado Vs. Bala, the Arrancar should still win, because Balas are bullets. I feel like people have forgot what a Bala is - it's not just a weak Cero. It's a blast that's half as stong, but twenty times faster. Most Hado shown are slow compared to that.

Now, about Negacion, Hierro and Garganta. Negacion would put nearly all of Bakudo in to shame, since it's shown to be virtually unbreakable - irony being that Genoveva is the only Arrancar who has the ability, and no-one else has asked their comrades to use it for them like the original intention of the ability was; there's huge amount of unexplored potential right there. With Hierro, it seems people should take the ability a bit more literally - as Skin of Iron. The bodies of Arrancars are as hard, or harder, than many Bakudo would be - where Shinigami would cause harm to themselves trying to struggle free or smash through, Arrancar wouldn't even notice. This also gives Arrancar much more leeway to grab Bakudo's like Hainawa, and use it against the caster.

Garganta is the most misused of the lot. People treat it too much as "instant travel" (something it is not), and too little as physical tear in space. It should be viable for an Arrancar with medium proficiency with the ability to simply redirect attacks to the Void. It should also be viable to redirect attackers there - which would screw over most non-Hollow opponents since they have no experience of navigating through the void. (Just so this doesn't become overpowered, let's say everyone can power their way back to the spot where they entered with some effort.)

These two uses of a single ability equal most combat uses of Bakudo. Think about it for a sec.