[BitP:R] BleachitP: Reborn: OOC Thread 13

[Kuroimaken]

With regards to Hierro, Rouga at least uses the ability in a way that was theoretically unintended for it to work, which is basically "offensive forcefield". The point about struggling to break free of Bakudo is a solid one - note also that unlike Kensei in the flashback, Arrancar are in full control of their minds, which means they can use Reiatsu to force their way out of a bind as well. This diminishes the importance of Bakudo from "paralyzing instant win" to "significant slow down".

There are at least two things that Bakudo can do that the Arrancar cannot replicate except by unique abilities however: turn invisible (Kyokko) and create walls/shields (Danku/Enkosen). Most Kidou proficient Shinigami have already used Kyokko at least once, with Soushi at least being the one who relies on this most often.

[Frozen_Feet]

Have you considered that one major allure of using Garganta is that the opposition can't track you while in the void? Arrancars must have some ability to perceive outside dimension, otherwise they would never land where they want or need to (my vote goes for application of Pesquisa) - so an Arrancar moving through the Void is in similar position than a Shinigami using Kyokko. Sure, they lose in some things (sneak attacking is clumsier and always breaks their cover), but they win in some too (no chance of being affected or caught by AoE effects due to physically not being there.

And as comes for creation of barriers - what is their widest usage? That's right, deflecting attacks - and I just detailed how Garganta can do the same thing.

[Kuroimaken]

Have you considered that one major allure of using Garganta is that the opposition can't track you while in the void? Arrancars must have some ability to perceive outside dimension, otherwise they would never land where they want or need to (my vote goes for application of Pesquisa) - so an Arrancar moving through the Void is in similar position than a Shinigami using Kyokko. Sure, they lose in some things (sneak attacking is clumsier and always breaks their cover), but they win in some too (no chance of being affected or caught by AoE effects due to physically not being there.

And as comes for creation of barriers - what is their widest usage? That's right, deflecting attacks - and I just detailed how Garganta can do the same thing.

Garganta is also detailed in Canon as being particularly difficult to master.

And call me nitpicky, but I find that the ability to create barriers in the battlefield is superior to the ability of simply deflecting attacks. It's a battlefield controller thing.

[tgva8889]

I'm not sure Garganta can be used for the purposes of sneak attacking so easily. Based on my reading of the Wiki, a Garganta only has one entrance and one exit, and is one-way; you can't jump in and jump out in the same world.

Negacion is about as bad as my perception of some Bakudo as "Save or Die/Suck" equivalents. Either you get hit by a Negacion box and can't do anything at all (if Ulquiorra can't break out for at least the length of the fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow, it's basically a "target foe is eliminated from combat) or you dodge/ignore it somehow. Also, the Caja Negacion seems to be limited in usage somehow. Negacion in general appears to be a Gillian technique and also basically a tractor beam. Negacion is just an invincible barrier otherwise, so I guess it could sub for the not-very-often used barrier kido.

Also, out of curiosity, do we know whether Garganta is the only way to travel between Hueco Mundo and the Mortal World in canon, or did the Shinigami get there through some other means? Because I do know that apparently once the Shinigami got there, they couldn't get back out without Garganta. Also, I don't think we've never seen a Garganta be used to reach Sereitei from anywhere. It's always done by the Senkaimon. Even when the person in question could have created a Garganta (Aizen).

[Wahrheit]

I'm not sure Garganta can be used for the purposes of sneak attacking so easily. Based on my reading of the Wiki, a Garganta only has one entrance and one exit, and is one-way; you can't jump in and jump out in the same world.

Negacion is about as bad as my perception of some Bakudo as "Save or Die/Suck" equivalents. Either you get hit by a Negacion box and can't do anything at all (if Ulquiorra can't break out for at least the length of the fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow, it's basically a "target foe is eliminated from combat) or you dodge/ignore it somehow. Also, the Caja Negacion seems to be limited in usage somehow. Negacion in general appears to be a Gillian technique and also basically a tractor beam. Negacion is just an invincible barrier otherwise, so I guess it could sub for the not-very-often used barrier kido.

Also, out of curiosity, do we know whether Garganta is the only way to travel between Hueco Mundo and the Mortal World in canon, or did the Shinigami get there through some other means? Because I do know that apparently once the Shinigami got there, they couldn't get back out without Garganta. Also, I don't think we've never seen a Garganta be used to reach Sereitei from anywhere. It's always done by the Senkaimon. Even when the person in question could have created a Garganta (Aizen).

A Garganta was used when Aizen revealed himself; it's how a bunch of Gillians showed up to rescue the traitors with Negacion. As for Hueco Mundo/Mortal World, I think it was implied that Aizen did something to screw up dimensional travel to trap the Shinigami there.

[Frozen_Feet]

Garganta is a Hollow equivalent to Senkaimon, mostly; a two-way tunnel that goes from Hueco Mundo to Soul Society or Mortal World. However, only Shinigami and Mortal characters who can't tear the dimensional fabric on their own have definitely been shown to be confined to set start and end points. More to the point, in our game characters have already used Garganta to move between different points of Mortal World - even if they have to make a detour through Hueco Mundo, it's still possible to use Garganta to sneak around.

Now, what comes to using Garganta to get to Soul Society - it was implied, in the description of Hueco Mundo and means to get there, that the trip through the void is hazardous, with only the strongest Hollows getting through. It was implied it's possible to get lost without reaching Hueco Mundo, or any other place for that matter.

(This should answer your point too, Kuroimaken. Any Arrancar who's made it to Hueco Mundo has potential to use it, just like any Shinigami has potential to use Kido. Not everyone does, due to the reason you outlined, but we're allowing Shinigami to use chantless Kido and Hanki, which are equally difficult, so Arrancars should be given some leeway as well.)

The only case where we've seen Hollows infiltrate Soul Society via Garganta was when Aizen called them to make his escape. Considering it needed a huge cabal of Gillians, and that there was an insider with humongous Reiatsu to work as a beacon, I think we should consider this as a special case. Aizen used Senkaimon, because that was easier.

Indeed, I hung a lampshade on the whole issue when Himura Michiko. Here's the relevant bit:

All she knows is that there are Hollows breaking through from a Garganta. Sure, Hollow incursion occasionally happened... but mostly, they were small, caused by carelesness of Shinigami returning from the Mortal World, some more persistent Hollows following retreating scouts or medics through Senkaimons and making through the Dangai mostly by luck.

Such cases were nearly always dealt by the Division who'd let them in - 9th or 13th, most often, and 10th when they slipped outside Seireitei limits. But this is not one of those cases, no - this time, Hollows had actually broken through the Precipice Worlds on their own! That's rare - Rukongai holds few souls with power to act as beacons to wandering Hollows, and moving through the Void to Soul Society... well, Kido Corps had long thought it to be impossible.

Until Arrancars from Las Noches had done it.

If moving from Mortal World to Hueco Mundo is hard, moving from Hueco Mundo to Soul Society should be harder, because SS is one step more separated from it, being surrounded by a transitory plane of its own (Dangai). And this does not yet account for any metaphysical tripwires Seireitei might have in place.

The most logical way for Arrancar to get into SS would thus be using Shingami as a beacon or supplier of directions. Considering Las Noches has kidnapped Shinigami, even recently, I'd say the Ghost King and some other invidual Arrancars could reasonably have enough knowledge to make the feat.

Getting out of SS is another ball game alltogether. Garganta has classification as Kido, so theoretically it has Hanki (a counter). However, knowing Garganta seems like a highly unlikely ability for a Shinigami, and knowing the Hanki would be even more unusual. It has been hinted by Righty's write up of a certain 12th Division facility that "Garganta blockers" do exist, but they're local phenomenom, reserved for specific facilities, not Seireitei wide. Alternatively, they are, but following principle of Hanki, great enough force can breach the defenses.

And call me nitpicky, but I find that the ability to create barriers in the battlefield is superior to the ability of simply deflecting attacks. It's a battlefield controller thing.

Garganta doesn't just deflect attacks (and attackers), it transfers them to another battlefield entirely. A battlefield the Arrancar can enter and exit at will, but the opposition always can't. Also, Garganta can be used to bypass barriers.

True, it's not quite the same as creating physical objects, but it doesn't have to be. It's still such a versatile power that in the hands of a skilled Arrancar, it'd significantly bridge the gap created by Bakudo.

[tgva8889]

A Garganta was used when Aizen revealed himself; it's how a bunch of Gillians showed up to rescue the traitors with Negacion. As for Hueco Mundo/Mortal World, I think it was implied that Aizen did something to screw up dimensional travel to trap the Shinigami there.

Ah, that's true. I forgot about that one.

Using Garganta in that way is basically "Save or die/suck" equivalent. Which is still, in my mind at least, a problem. Or a barrier, I guess.

[Dorizzit]

Now, about Negacion, Hierro and Garganta. Negacion would put nearly all of Bakudo in to shame, since it's shown to be virtually unbreakable - irony being that Genoveva is the only Arrancar who has the ability, and no-one else has asked their comrades to use it for them like the original intention of the ability was;

I just want to say now that I have never forgotten about this ability, so there isn't a chance of BS being called on me later.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm not sure I see "save or suck / die" nature of some abilities as an obstacle, since by definition they allow a save; success is not assumed, the defending party is given leeway to render the attempt useless.

Now, the problem with Bakudo, Negacion and Garganta comes to being when one party or the another perceives them as "No save just suck / die". Which is why I suggest ruling that all characters, even if they can't normally use Garganta, can always exit the Void at the point where they entered it. (For scenarios where a character is stranded in hostile plane, Edge has kindly provided us with Concierges - now if he just was around to play them more...) Negacion should also be breakable, just like all Bakudo are breakable with sufficient amount of raw strenght and endurance. One possibility would be that since Negacion is normally used by one character on another character, injuring the "caster" would disrupt the power.

(Negacion isn't that big an issue in my opinion, since it renders both parties incapable of doing anything to the other. So while an Evil Villain (tm) using it to escape can be disheartening, the Evil Villain has to first expose himself to the opposition to do anything.)

[Kasanip]

Thank you for your gracious lesson. m(_ _)m

It is only a little thing you do not need such an apology.

Aaand now I'm picturing some wacky BitP omake called "Teach me, Kasanip-sensei!". You did that on purpose, didn't you Kuro?

I don't know very much of Bleach.

[Kuroimaken]

It is only a little thing you do not need such an apology.


I don't know very much of Bleach.

This is more related to a game called Blazblue that has this little omake called "Oshiete Litchi-Sensei".

[HirokatsuGoto]

i am not against the idea of drugs or whatever to boost Arrancar... though i wonder if maybe it should just be an ability to give to the Ghost King/Queen

now i know that Aizen screwed with Wonderweiss to make him a unique arrancar with a specific purpose (bottle up Yama-ji stuff), and Aizen also talked about how other Espada gave up certain aspects of their "selves" to gain more power.

He probably (i think he did) did that with the Hogyoku, however maybe some kind of similar power of altering Arrancar could be given to the Ghost King/Queen, whom could use it on their subjects as they saw fit (so, maybe they had to "earn" a defensive upgrade by doing something special). They would obviously come with major drawbacks depending on what was offered.

I think this may allow for Arrancar to potentially decide whether they want to pursue these defensive or other types of powers as a means to their characters advancement. Will they choose immunity to fire in exchange for losing their short term memory? What will they have to be made to do by the Ghost King/Queen to garner even attaining this option?

Just as the Shinigami had to go to school, and learn the chants (some of which never sue it much or well in their fights as seen in the manga) this woudl give some kind of similar path for the Arrancar to follow if they so choose. Which just breeds more RP.

Even a defeated Arrancar who wants to get back a t the mean old Cpt who beat him up has the chance to find a way to get stronger and rematch on new terms.

I dunno, just an idea.

and again, i dont mind the use of drugs or seomthign too..i just had this other idea

[strawberryman]

We are avoiding having the Spirit King involved in the game because there is literally nothing known about the canon version.

As for the Hogyoku, it's also only fair to mention that we're also not having that in our game on account of being made of hax.

On Frozen_Foot's assessment: That's just the problem, Callos is proposing the expanded options so Arrancar don't need to be so much more physically capable than shinigami. Even basic attributes, when stretched to extremes, can be bad. Nothing against KD, but for example, no one could compete with Satoshi on speed, and it showed in any fights he had. Same with Daisuke. Granted, these are shinigami examples, but the point here is that relative "stronger than thou" is much less entertaining than having options, and as conservative as I am of it, I believe Callos' proposal will do so.

[Draken]

Since I have no idea what the Spirit King would want with arrancar and never heard of a Spirit Queen, I will assume you are talking about my characters, Erscheinung and Renee, the Ghost King and the Mother Queen.

And they both have means to make other arrancar (or anyone really) stronger. Except it is not, in general, a good thing to be augmented by them. Von Geister's can use his bio-engineering to augment anyone in various means. He could give claws, he could give chitin, he could give electricity-generating organs (fish have them!) he could give acid glands. It would be horrendously painful to receive such augments, akin to surgery, in fact. I am also toying with the concept of brood symbiotes (think Eberron simbionts), Gabi (currently with Val) is the "test drive" of the idea.

As for Renee... Well, facebrainhuggers. You gain more power, the only cost is that a parasite will eat your soul and take your place.

[Prime32]

This is more related to a game called Blazblue that has this little omake called "Oshiete Litchi-Sensei".

Which in turn came from Tsukihime.

[HirokatsuGoto]

sorry...i didnt mean "spirit" King...it was brain fart...

i meant "Ghost" King/Queen

and i do not mean to have the Hogyoku be used..i only referred to it as a means of reference...


i made all the changes to the original post

sorry to make the mistake

[Kuroimaken]

Which in turn came from Tsukihime.

...why does that Ciel look so FREAKISHLY MANLY?

[Frozen_Feet]

On Frozen_Foot's assessment: That's just the problem, Callos is proposing the expanded options so Arrancar don't need to be so much more physically capable than shinigami.

In the case it wasn't clear, I agree with Callos's assesment, and have nothing against the idea of giving Hollows more abilities. I'm just indifferent to Philters and Tonics, specifically. Mainly I was trying to give existing Arrancar abilities a critical look to see if they had any unused potential that would alleviate the perceived problem.

By the way, what happened to my other foot?

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm sorry, I can't resist this one.

So what you're saying is that in order to catch up with Shinigami, Arrancar should be on drugs?

Drugs and gene therapy. COMPLETELY different. Also, they are bad guys, typically bad guys use bad methods like...distilled puppies or something.

Spoiler

Show

I agree that Arrancar are weaker overall compared to equally-powered Shinigami...but I also think that Hollows in general aren't supposed to really fight 1 v. 1 and expect to win. The reason Hollows are a threat is because there's a lot of them. I mean, Gillians are basically a million Hollows (or at least a very large number of them) put together, aren't they?

Just my two cents on it. I like the idea of tonics and philters, though do they really have to be addictive? Also, philters kind of just sound like...well, "your character should just train and get better at shooting Ceros" or something. I guess that particular example seems weaker than the other (altering Hierro). I like the idea, of, say, a "slippery Hierro" that caused binding effects to be weaker on the target.

***

On another note, I think Bakudo can be a problem themselves. Bakudo generally come down to "Save or Suck/Die" effects, rather than an option in combat equivalent to sword strikes and energy blasts. You either ignore them completely or they hit and you're completely broken down. At least, that's the expectation for several of them. Maybe we as players need to expect a little less from our binding spells. I know that for any of my characters that were going to use them, I would only have them cause maybe a few seconds delay on the target, enough to perhaps stun them for a moment to allow for a follow-up attack.

Maybe I'm reading into your argument wrong, Callos.

***

On moving fast with relations, that reminds me of something I have to get done...

Well yeah, that's the major threat of hollows, not arrancar though. Heck, in canon, the mere presence of arrancar caused a collective ****ing of pants. Granted, that's been white-washed a bit (for the betterment of the game) but arrancar can/still should be stronger then run of the mill hollows. I don't believe there's much contention on that point though...

As for 'do they have to be addicting', well...I tossed them in there so there's some kind of downside to using them and a logical reason not to tonic the hell out of one's self and going on a rampage. I'm open to a suggestion on alternative downsides. As for philters, I admit I kind of didn't have many ideas for them. And sure, training could accomplish the same things the 'cero arm' could, but it's more visual in my mind then just training.

You aren't reading my argument wrong either.

However, few things I have to say about the matter. First, Hado Vs. Cero - in a stand off between Shinigami and Arrancar, the Arrancar should win because their energy attacks are faster to generate than Kido - in the case of unchanted Hado Vs. Bala, the Arrancar should still win, because Balas are bullets. I feel like people have forgot what a Bala is - it's not just a weak Cero. It's a blast that's half as stong, but twenty times faster. Most Hado shown are slow compared to that.

Like I said though, not every arrancar can use balas or use them well. Most can in our game, but not all. And if arrancar start to throw cero around willy-nilly then either there's going to be more then a few angry shinigami players who had characters nuked or ceros are assumed to not be that powerful to begin with and are hit with the Worf-Effect.

Now, about Negacion, Hierro and Garganta. Negacion would put nearly all of Bakudo in to shame, since it's shown to be virtually unbreakable - irony being that Genoveva is the only Arrancar who has the ability, and no-one else has asked their comrades to use it for them like the original intention of the ability was; there's huge amount of unexplored potential right there. With Hierro, it seems people should take the ability a bit more literally - as Skin of Iron. The bodies of Arrancars are as hard, or harder, than many Bakudo would be - where Shinigami would cause harm to themselves trying to struggle free or smash through, Arrancar wouldn't even notice. This also gives Arrancar much more leeway to grab Bakudo's like Hainawa, and use it against the caster.

There's a reason that Negacion isn't used that often though, it's only capable by Gillians or, I imagine, someone who was created from gillians or somehow connected to them. Plus, no one wants to ask Genoveva of all people to try and save them, wise that they are. The problem with Negacion though, is that's only real use is for rescues. There's very little combat applications to a Negacion since it is, as tvga aptly put it, a tractor beam that can't be breached. Either it's used for rescue or you're using it to seal you and a single enemy in an unbreakable tube. Which is a death sentence if the enemy proves to be stronger.

And the point about Hierro is valid, except for that to function right kido would need to be hit with a small-scale Worf Effect or be rewritten to allow for such things to happen more often in the first place. Otherwise you get the problem that people expect bakudo to do more.

Garganta is the most misused of the lot. People treat it too much as "instant travel" (something it is not), and too little as physical tear in space. It should be viable for an Arrancar with medium proficiency with the ability to simply redirect attacks to the Void. It should also be viable to redirect attackers there - which would screw over most non-Hollow opponents since they have no experience of navigating through the void. (Just so this doesn't become overpowered, let's say everyone can power their way back to the spot where they entered with some effort.).

The problem with garganta shenanigans is that it was one of the reasons why Geister was so over-powered in the last, which is why Draken dropped the ability. There's no discernible effort for an arrancar to open a garganta and speed is a function of how good you are with a technique. An expert at using Garganta in such a fashion would never really be in danger then, since every big attack heading at them is sent to Hueco Mundo to, potentially, hilarious effect or that defense is too slow to use all the time which makes it infinitely less appealing then just using sonido/hierro to tank/avoid an attack.

Negacion is about as bad as my perception of some Bakudo as "Save or Die/Suck" equivalents. Either you get hit by a Negacion box and can't do anything at all (if Ulquiorra can't break out for at least the length of the fight between Ichigo and Grimmjow, it's basically a "target foe is eliminated from combat) or you dodge/ignore it somehow. Also, the Caja Negacion seems to be limited in usage somehow. Negacion in general appears to be a Gillian technique and also basically a tractor beam. Negacion is just an invincible barrier otherwise, so I guess it could sub for the not-very-often used barrier kido.

I think you have Caja Negacion and Negacion confused, Caja Negacion is the one used on Ulquiorra and isn't AS bad as bakudo since...A) It can only be used on arrancar/hollows and B) It only works if it hits a very specific spot. I'd also say it's more Save or Die (for those not strong enough to escape a Negacion) or Save or Miss Battle. It's use against shinigami is...utterly nil. Though I did just think of a last ditch effort use for it...

And Negacion suffers from the problem I mentioned above, it's only really useful for rescues or creating cage-matches. To my knowledge, and how I've been playing it, it requires a target to be used. One couldn't just create a series of unbreakable cubes to break up the battle field since that's not how the ability works. If that's a misconception of mine then I'll withdraw my complaint about arrancar being weak since the ability to create unbreakable barriers at will is so haxxed out the arse that I need to change my argument to 'kido needs a boost'.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'd imagine defensive uses of Garganta can fail for many of the same reasons barrier Bakudo can - the user is facing the wrong way to deflect the attack, is caught off-guard and fails to open it, or reacts too slow and only manages to swallop up a portion of the attack. Just like Bakudo, it'd be hard to use in close combat situation when opening the gate would be too slow and leave one open for the attack.

There's also the possibility of an attack or attacker go around the gate if the Arrancar opens it too early, or, if the Arrancar tries to flee through it, the opposition can always follow through (unwise as that may be).

Overall, I don't see this use of the ability more powerful or useful than barrier Bakudo, as long as it's not overdone. (And, as berry kindly pointed out, any ability can be overdone.)

One potential weakness / inconvenience does come to mind - Garganta always seems to open with the gate facing the user. So to use it to swallow an attack, an Arrancar would have to invoke the power and then leap behind the Gate...

(Also, the attack wouldn't be send to Hueco Mundo, it'd be sent to the Void. I'd think most attacks would die out on the way, or, you know, not get anywhere due to not being able to punch a hole through dimensional fabric.)

[strawberryman]

By the way, what happened to my other foot?

Insomnia claimed it.

[Kuroimaken]

You know, now that I think about it a little longer, I don't really get what the discussion is about. Let's think for a moment on what Genny's got going for her (since she's pretty much the first Arrancar versus Shinigami combat we've really got going on, not counting Blindados etc.), all of it without cracking Ressurreccion yet:

1) She has critically injured a vice-captain;
2) Already broken through the first of a two-layer 73th level Bakudou by bouncing around;
3) Has only sustained relatively minor damage;
4) Has forced a captain to go Bankai.

This, as she battles two captains and a vice-captain, one of which is a Kidou expert. Granted, she's the freaking Primera, so something of this scale is expected, but it should be noted that she's been doing so basically relying on altering people's perception in a minor way and bouncing around.

One point I think everyone should remember is that the majority of Bakudou, excluding Rikujoukourou, Hainawa and Saijou Sabaku, actually require anchoring points against which to immobilize a target, making said prison theoretically only as strong as said anchoring points. Which may as well be made of butter.

It's hard to believe that most Arrancar would be stopped by Hainawa, really.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh, but this is not solely above Genoveva; if anything, Jenny is an expection, since we can remotely justify her being "just that strong" - Callos's point here is that he dislikes it as a solution, and so, to avert it becoming over-used, suggested things to make Arrancar all around more versatile.

(Though I should note that both the barrier breaking and Michiko using Bankai are as much a result of the Shinigamis' own actions - it isn't all just Jenny being awesome.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

You know, now that I think about it a little longer, I don't really get what the discussion is about. Let's think for a moment on what Genny's got going for her (since she's pretty much the first Arrancar versus Shinigami combat we've really got going on, not counting Blindados etc.), all of it without cracking Ressurreccion yet:

1) She has critically injured a vice-captain;
2) Already broken through the first of a two-layer 73th level Bakudou by bouncing around;
3) Has only sustained relatively minor damage;
4) Has forced a captain to go Bankai.

This, as she battles two captains and a vice-captain, one of which is a Kidou expert. Granted, she's the freaking Primera, so something of this scale is expected, but it should be noted that she's been doing so basically relying on altering people's perception in a minor way and bouncing around.

One point I think everyone should remember is that the majority of Bakudou, excluding Rikujoukourou, Hainawa and Saijou Sabaku, actually require anchoring points against which to immobilize a target, making said prison theoretically only as strong as said anchoring points. Which may as well be made of butter.

It's hard to believe that most Arrancar would be stopped by Hainawa, really.

Genoveva hasn't cracked her release yet because it's the only one's she's got and I don't intend on her releasing barring very important/dramatic situations. Being a distraction? Not one of them. On your other points...

1) I think it'd be more surprising if Seiko WASN'T injured in some fashion or another. He's helping out but he's in a fight that's a bit over his head.
2) It's important to keep in mind that SHE didn't break the first Tozansho, Masaru did. All she did was weaken it and there was a bit more to it then bouncing around (but it wouldn't have been capable of being seen and it would have been boring to describe, so I didn't). Keep in mind, these barriers aren't the best that Masaru can do either, shinigami become more powerful as they release as well and so far he's only gone to shikai. That was AFTER the barriers.
3) Minor my ass. She's using a body-shield for a gorram reason after all, to avoid more AoE kido and force them into melee with her. Which, ya know, they came through wonderfully on. Not to mention the fact he provides a handy visual block so they can't see how badly she's hurting/what she's doing.
4) Again, that was Masaru that forced Michiko to go bankai, not Genoveva. Until punching a hole in Seiko she hadn't made a single offensive move. Unless you count taunting, then yeah, she was offensive as hell.

Also..I'm not seeing what you mean on Bakudo. I see a grand total of two bakudo that rely on binding their target to the surroundings (Hyapporankan and ****osu Sansen). Three if you count Gochūtekkan for holding them against the ground, but I don't cause even if they explode the ground they still got the big arse pillars forcing them down into the hole. The vast majority of bakudo simply 'binds' in some form or another and very few actually need to be aimed, they just automatically hit. Others don't even need to be aimed at a target, but have other utility to them that, in some cases, is even more valuable.

[Kuroimaken]

1) Perhaps, but he's still an asset in the fight. As a distraction, at least. (To whom is a different question. )
2) Good point.
3) And I wouldn't know that, but it doesn't seem like Genny to be this self-conscious about her looks. (I kid, naturally.)
4) Details. She still forced a captain to attack with enough force that another captain had to go Bankai just to ensure she wasn't just as badly hit or worse.

This is the list I use as a Kidou reference.

Let's see the Kidou listed, shall we?

Sai, Hainawa, Seki, Geki, Hourin, Sekienton, Kyokko, Sh*totsu Sansen, Tsuriboshi, Enkosen, Kaku****suijaku, Rikujoukourou, Hyapporankan, Sajo Sabaku, Tozanshou, Gochuutekkan, Tenteikuura, Kuyou Shibari, Danku, Kin, Bankin.

Out of the 21 Bakudou listed, 13 are used to actually imprison someone (to this day I have NO. CLUE. What Kuyou Shibari is supposed to do). Looking them up:

Sai: Auto-hit, no environmental requirement... and also low as hell.
Hainawa: Requires a hit, no environmental requirement. Also very low. I don't see an Arrancar shaking in his/her boots over this.
Geki: Auto-hit, no environmental requirement. Implied to clash spiritual pressures, bigger one wins, but mostly slowdown.
Hourin: Requires a hit, no environmental requirement.
Sh*totsu Sansen: Can be dodged. Anchoring point required.
Tsuriboshi: Only really usable if your opponent's charging in. Minimum two anchoring points required (normally two walls).
Rikujoukourou: Hard to dodge, but still. No environment required.
Hyapporankan: Requires a hit, anchoring point required.
Sajo Sabaku: Semi-auto-hit (it forms around the target, which could theoretically attempt escape if he/she were fast enough and wise to the move), no environment required.
Tozanshou: Traps your opponent in, but is breakable. No environment required.
Gochuutekkan: Requires a hit. Ground required (see Kin).
Kin: Auto-hit, in theory. Ground required, but that's not much of a requirement.
Bankin: Again, theoretical auto-hit, no environmental requirement.

So out of the 13, 8 require no anchoring point... with a grand total of 4 being above level 10, and 1 being level 90+ Kidou, leaving a grand total of three options for no-environment-required binding to the "average" Shinigami (and I use the term "average" loosely since out of the three options mentioned, two are in the sixties and one is in the seventies in terms of power).

[Frozen_Feet]

I don't think "forced" is the right word. Nothing about Jenny's behaviour forced Masato to use 90+ Hado, he just decided to take no chances (which came back to bite him mostly due to bad luck).

In any case, the course of the fight is due to multiple factors, and I'm not convinced "Jenny is awesome" is even the biggest one.

But this is rather beside the point as, again, this is not just about Jenny - Jenny doesn't need new toys. This about all the other Arrancar who might need them.

I'm content to play my characters as they are, but then again, I'm me, and my notion of "fair play" within freeform games might be rather different than that of others.

[Kuroimaken]

I don't think "forced" is the right word. Nothing about Jenny's behaviour forced Masato to use 90+ Hado, he just decided to take no chances (which came back to bite him mostly due to bad luck).

In any case, the course of the fight is due to multiple factors, and I'm not convinced "Jenny is awesome" is even the biggest one.

But this is rather beside the point as, again, this is not just about Jenny - Jenny doesn't need new toys. This about all the other Arrancar who might need them.

I'm content to play my characters as they are, but then again, I'm me, and my notion of "fair play" within freeform games might be rather different than that of others.

And I understand where you're coming from. My point being that the difference between Arrancar and Shinigami is not actually that great - and that though there are options that Bakudou gives that Arrancar cannot theoretically replicate, those options are not really as big a problem as they appear. Shinigami get Kidou, Arrancar get Bala, Cero, Hierro and an ability unique to each Arrancar, plus whatever they get in Ressurreccion. Keep in mind that unlike Kidou, Cero/Bala do not get their power cut in half from using it in a hurry either.

If anything, things are schewed towards Arrancar, not Shinigami.

[strawberryman]

If things were down to power, sure. But it shouldn't be, IMO. It should be cunning strategy and interesting roleplaying that wins the day, not pure unadulterated power. By balancing the scales on tools we lessen the need for Arrancar to be these giant juggernauts.

At least, that's what I think Callos is trying to get across.

[Kuroimaken]

If things were down to power, sure. But it shouldn't be, IMO. It should be cunning strategy and interesting roleplaying that wins the day, not pure unadulterated power. By balancing the scales on tools we lessen the need for Arrancar to be these giant juggernauts.

At least, that's what I think Callos is trying to get across.

And I don't particularly mind that, specially given that half my characters fight the sneaky way instead of RAWR! I AM HERO HEAR ME ROAR.

[KnightDisciple]

Hm.

I think I like the Tonics and Philters, more so than increased Negacion and Garganta shenanigans. They feel like they take a bit more skill and strategy to use.

Also, it gives Vicente an excuse to demand more room. You know, maybe he should look around at some of these other sectors; some of them aren't seeing much use...