New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 263
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [In progress, accepting new players indefinitely]

    EDIT DEC 5th: Tl;dr - Current proposal can be found here.

    Recruitment post
    Spoiler
    Show

    To put it simply, Nomic is a game of squirreling, deception, wit, diplomacy and other parliamentary shenanigans. To put it un-simply:

    Full text:

    If law-making is a game, then it is a game in which changing the rules is a move. Law-making is more than changing the rules of law-making, of course, and more than a game. But a real game may model the self-amending character of the legal system and leave the rest out. While self-amendment appears to be an esoteric feature of law, capturing it in a game creates a remarkably complete microcosm of a functional legal system.

    ...

    ...Nomic is a clean two-tier system, rather than a nuanced or multi-tier system, for the sake of simplicity and to make the game easier to learn and play. This is not to say that nuanced, intermediate levels may not arise through game-custom and tacit understandings. Moreover, the nature of Nomic allows players to add new tiers by explicit amendment as they see fit; and it is easier to add them to a simple game than to subtract them from a complex one...Because every last rule of the game can change in the the course of play, the players may feel that they are playing a "different game" after a few rounds than when they sat down.

    Nomic even makes some rules explicit in order to make them amendable, when in most games they are implicit —rules to obey the rules, rules that players each start with zero points, and so on. No tacit understanding that one brings to most games simply qua games, let alone any explicit rule, is beyond the amendment power of Nomic. After Nomic was first published in Scientific American, a German philosopher wrote to me insisting that Rule 101 (that players should obey the rules) should be omitted from the Initial Set and made part of a truly immutable shell. He missed an essential point of the game. Rule 101 is included precisely so that it can be amended; if players amend or repeal it, they deserve what they get.

    ...

    Nomic includes provision for Judgment (Rule 212), not merely to imitate government on another front, but also for the reasons that government must make provision for judgment: rules will inevitably be adopted that are ambiguous, inconsistent, or incomplete, or that require application to individual circumstances not specified in the rule or not anticipated by the framers. "Play" must not be interrupted; some agency must be empowered to make an authoritative determination so that "play" may continue.

    ...

    For most games there is an infallible decision procedure to determine the legality of a move. In Nomic situations may easily arise in which it is very hard to determine whether a move is legal. Moreover, paradoxes may arise in Nomic that paralyze judgment. Occasionally this will be due to the poor drafting of a rule, but it may also arise from a rule that is well-drafted but mischievous. The variety of such paradoxes is truly impossible to anticipate. Rule 213 is designed to cope with them as well as possible without cluttering the Initial Set with too many legalistic qualifications. Note that Rule 213 allows a wily player to create a paradox, get it passed (if the rule seems innocent enough to the other players), and thereby win.
    Sound interesting to you? I thought it might. The initial set of rules is available here. Or, click the spoiler button below for the most up-to-date set of rules for this session.


    Current Rules as of December 2nd
    Spoiler
    Show

    Immutable Rules

    101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

    102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

    *

    103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

    (Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

    *

    104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

    *

    105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes.

    *

    106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

    *

    107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

    *

    108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

    If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

    *

    109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

    *

    110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

    *

    111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

    *

    112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

    *

    113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

    *

    114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

    *

    115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

    *

    116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

    *

    Mutable Rules

    201. Players shall alternate in clockwise order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.

    In mail and computer games, players shall alternate in alphabetical order by surname.

    *

    202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

    In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

    *

    203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.

    *

    204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

    *

    205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

    *

    206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

    *

    207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

    *

    208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

    In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

    *

    209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.

    *

    210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule-changes unless they are team-mates.

    The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to games by mail or computer.

    *

    211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

    If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

    If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

    *

    212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

    When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

    The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

    Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

    New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

    *

    213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

    This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

    *

    302. Every player has exactly one turn per round, with rounds ending and a new round beginning once every player has had their turn.[/b]



    Players list IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER
    Spoiler
    Show

    000 (aka Internet Flea)
    000 (aka Thelas) - Currently presiding judge
    billtodamax- Currently active player
    Castaras
    Gray Mage
    Haruki-kun
    Introbulus
    Kaosubaloo
    nolispe
    Orzel
    PirateMonk
    Ramsus
    The Grue
    Last edited by The Grue; 2010-12-05 at 06:42 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    billtodamax's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment

    This looks hilariously complicated. In.
    Avatar by Me!
    Recaiden made the mime doll.


    Spoiler: Nexus Characters
    Show

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment

    Overly complicated stuff is good.
    In.
    Thelas

    Ambiguously aligned Domain Wizard (Divination) 9/Iot7V 7 at your service.

    If I am playing in or running a game and I don't seem to be showing up, PM me. Please.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ramsus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment

    Wow this looks insane. I'm in.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Updated the players list because I just woke up. o_O

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    A game designed around breaking itself? I am so in.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Angel in the Playground Moderator
     
    Haruki-kun's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    The Steamboat
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Sure, count me in.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    InaVegt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    I'm in.
    ٩๏̯͡๏
    New found land. It's like Untitled Document, for places - Flickerdart
    Avatar by Domochevsky

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Retired Mod in the Playground Retired Moderator
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Leeds, UK
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Why not. In.
    "I'm just going on motive and opportunity here and the fact that if the earth got swallowed by a black hole, I'd look suspiciously in your direction first."
    ~ Timberwolf

    "I blame Castaras. You know... In general."
    ~ KuReshtin

    "Castaras - An absolutely adorable facade that hides a truly ruthless streak."
    ~ The Succubus

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Gray Mage's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Porto Alegre, Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Sounds fun, might take some time to fully understand the rules. In.


    Ignotus Peverell avatar made by the great Bradakhan.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Commencing at midnight, PST!

    That's six hours for the rest of you. Remember that, in accordance with Rule 116, players are free to join at any time (barring future legislation that says they can't).

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    I'm not seeing any rule stating my screen name is the name I have to use, so for the purposes of this game and in accordance with rule 116, I'm changing my surname to "A".
    Last edited by Internet Flea; 2010-11-29 at 09:26 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    InaVegt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    And my name will be '1', following the good old tradition that numbers precede letters in alphabetic ordering.
    ٩๏̯͡๏
    New found land. It's like Untitled Document, for places - Flickerdart
    Avatar by Domochevsky

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Missionary Pirate Ship

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    I'll join. The original rules don't seem very well suited for forum play, but I guess we can always fix them.

    Edit: Oh, and I declare myself 0.
    Last edited by PirateMonk; 2010-11-29 at 09:41 PM.
    Spoiler
    Show




    Do you surmise it's wise to have laser beams emitting from your eyes?
    -They Might Be Giants, "The Lady and the Tiger"

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Quote Originally Posted by InaVegt View Post
    And my name will be '1', following the good old tradition that numbers precede letters in alphabetic ordering.
    Guess I'd better change mine to 11, then.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Ah, see, you're getting the hang of it already!
    Last edited by The Grue; 2010-11-29 at 09:44 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Missionary Pirate Ship

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    How will rule 105 even work? Does the voting period just keep going until everyone votes?
    Spoiler
    Show




    Do you surmise it's wise to have laser beams emitting from your eyes?
    -They Might Be Giants, "The Lady and the Tiger"

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Seems like it. You should probably propose something about autolynches.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    I declare myself octal 000 in ASCII, because that's the first character.
    Thelas

    Ambiguously aligned Domain Wizard (Divination) 9/Iot7V 7 at your service.

    If I am playing in or running a game and I don't seem to be showing up, PM me. Please.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Is ASCII Code the same as ASCII Alphabet? Google implies otherwise.

    EDIT: Name-changing to 0 as well.
    Last edited by Internet Flea; 2010-11-29 at 10:13 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Ooh! I'm so in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonius View Post
    Well, strangely enough a faction with Reputation 0 and history of past betrayals proved itself to be rather untrustworthy. My hat is off for the Mothriders.

    Damn, about 29 stats in one swipe. Since I'm clearly the next I'm booby-trapping every inch of the Maze.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMonk View Post
    How will rule 105 even work? Does the voting period just keep going until everyone votes?
    Until this is clarified by legislation, the voting period will probably end up running until the presiding judge decides it's gone on long enough.

    That may be something the first player - whoever that might be - would want to clarify in a proposal.
    Last edited by The Grue; 2010-11-29 at 10:45 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    billtodamax's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    I'm changing my name to that which is contained within the next set of quotation marks.

    ''

    Which would put me first, as an is before and.
    Avatar by Me!
    Recaiden made the mime doll.


    Spoiler: Nexus Characters
    Show

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    As presiding judge (last person on the list and therefore player immediately preceding the player with the first turn), I'm going to rule that you can't change your name to a noncharacter, on the grounds that a name comprised of nothing is by definition not a name.
    Last edited by The Grue; 2010-11-30 at 12:41 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    billtodamax's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Curses.

    I nevertheless would like people to refer to me as the name I previously stated.

    Sans quote marks, of course.
    Avatar by Me!
    Recaiden made the mime doll.


    Spoiler: Nexus Characters
    Show

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Quote Originally Posted by billtodamax View Post
    Curses.

    I nevertheless would like people to refer to me as the name I previously stated.

    Sans quote marks, of course.
    No problem, .
    Also, since none of those characters are in the alphabet, you'd actually be excluded from the rotation entirely.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    InaVegt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Considering Symbols go before Numbers in the alphabetic ordering, I would like to claim '-' as my name (excluding quotes)
    ٩๏̯͡๏
    New found land. It's like Untitled Document, for places - Flickerdart
    Avatar by Domochevsky

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Internet Flea's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    :noitacoL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Quote Originally Posted by InaVegt View Post
    Considering Symbols go before Numbers in the alphabetic ordering, I would like to claim '-' as my name (excluding quotes)
    I don't think I've ever seen symbols placed before numbers and letters. You'll need some kind of proof, preferably involving symbol precedences as well.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Grue's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Behind you!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    I believe Windows Explorer sorts filenames beginning with a non alphanumeric symbol before filenames that do.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    InaVegt's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nowhere
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Nomic: A Game of Self-Amendment [Recruiting]

    Quote Originally Posted by Internet Flea View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen symbols placed before numbers and letters. You'll need some kind of proof, preferably involving symbol precedences as well.
    Here's the proof, note that '!' is the first printing character on the list, and as such I will change my name to '!'.
    ٩๏̯͡๏
    New found land. It's like Untitled Document, for places - Flickerdart
    Avatar by Domochevsky

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •