Community Based Monster Classes: Come in and help out!

[Gorgondantess]

:
I maintain the skill bonuses under Cattish Moxie need to be severely toned down. You're talking about a, at 21st level, +7 bonus to four skills, and a +21 bonus to another two. Fairly broad skill list & lots of skill points a level make it ridiculous as skill monkeying goes. Especially in the long run.

Soooooo? Hyudra, you're a great homebrewer, but I'll maintain that you don't have an eye for high level gaming. At level 21, you can get +10 to a half dozen different skills- or +30 to one or two- in one magical item for pocket change. Beyond that, balance, climb & jump become worthless because everyone's flying, and listen will be rather mediocre because you have blindsense/true seeing.

Anyways, I'm looking over all the other monsters now- expect a rather large critique list tonight.

[Hyudra]

Soooooo? Hyudra, you're a great homebrewer, but I'll maintain that you don't have an eye for high level gaming. At level 21, you can get +10 to a half dozen different skills- or +30 to one or two- in one magical item for pocket change. Beyond that, balance, climb & jump become worthless because everyone's flying, and listen will be rather mediocre because you have blindsense/true seeing.

I'll admit that I have almost zero experience with high level games, and have admitted such many times before. I was just trying to illustrate the sheer size of the bonuses you're accumulating. You're gaining scads of skill bonuses; even at level 3, you're gaining +1 to four different skills, and a +3 to two more.

Look at Hide. You've got a +8 for being tiny, +1 for cattish moxie, +1 for the class dex bonus and probably +2 more for your attribute bonus. As a level 3 cat, you're packing, what, a +18 to Hide? What's a level 3 opponent going to have as an opposed spot? +9?

It feels over the top.

[Gorgondantess]

I'll admit that I have almost zero experience with high level games, and have admitted such many times before. I was just trying to illustrate the sheer size of the bonuses you're accumulating. You're gaining scads of skill bonuses; even at level 3, you're gaining +1 to four different skills, and a +3 to two more.

Look at Hide. You've got a +8 for being tiny, +1 for cattish moxie, +1 for the class dex bonus and probably +2 more for your attribute bonus. As a level 3 cat, you're packing, what, a +18 to Hide? What's a level 3 opponent going to have as an opposed spot? +9?

It feels over the top.

That's primarily the tiny size that's doing the heavy lifting there, not the skill bonuses. At 3rd level, a whisper gnome is doing better than the awakened cat at move silently- and will until 12th level, when they'll be even. The awakened cat won't be better until 15th. Oh, and it's only going one less on hide, and while it may be a very powerful race, it didn't spend a class level on it- it'll be packing a 2d6 EB while the awakened cat is schlepping around with its 1d6.

[Gorgondantess]

Maug: Change it to 3/4 BAB. It's not a skilled warrior, it's a bruiser, and it already gets a lot for a 3 level class.
I'd prefer it if you changed the wording on the hp increases to be standard with other construct classes.
Love the grappling hook graft, by the way, though it says something about an "additional application of this upgrade". Though this brings up a pertinent possible addition: why not do what I did with the iron golem and allow further grafts for the cost of a feat?
Stone... what's that word, anyways? Splitter or Spitter? I'll assume spitter. Anyways, it's a bit... funky. One ranged attack per round at 1d6 damage as a free action is really, really good at 2nd level, and rapidly becomes a weaker and weaker option until at higher levels (10+) the maug won't even bother using it. Also, you say it reloads automatically, but then you say that it has a maximum capacity of 50 bullets.
Anyways, either way it needs to change. I'd advise increasing the action to an attack action, bare minimum, and either scale the damage by d6's (one every 3 HD is a good standard) or to add strength modifier or to just do slam damage. Make sure it's never a better damage source than the slams themselves, though.

Wendigo: The deflection bonus to AC is small and clumsy, and I don't really see why it's there at all. Did the original monster get a deflection bonus?
Secondly... a 6th level spell for a 2nd level character? Even gimped, that's ridiculous. And then you grant it full use at 4 HD. Granted, it's not as powerful just affecting the wendigo, but even then you're getting the effects of a 3rd level spell at level 2. Give it more limitations.
Secondly, regeneration at level 2 is not something that should be handed out lightly. Essentially, any enemies that can't deal consistent fire damage or doesn't have a means of defeating it aside from damage can't possibly in any way beat the wendigo. This isn't a huge problem at level 5, and is hardly a problem at all by level 8 or so, but at level 2 that's not a good thing. Why not fast healing until 5 HD or something?
Also: What Hyudra said.

Animated Object: Might want to specifically state "no class skills".
I strongly advise you give it raising like the golems.
Halfling made: WOWZERS! Permanent freedom of movement beats any of the other "made" abilities.
Gnomish Made: Remember what I said about fluff restrictions? I knew you'd be able to figure something out. Good job- I like it.
I'm a little worried about over-stacking stuff like heavy slam or sturdy construction. Maybe cap it at 3?
While controlled hovering makes sense as is, it's pretty weak. Call it "magic carpet" and make it at least equal to land speed/average maneuverability.
Make sure with ignite you can turn off the light.
Looking glass: the problem with this is that it doesn't scale. Detect magic is nice at level 1, yeah, but at level 15 you're going to regret not just waiting to grab greater arcane sight.
Substance Conjuration: increase the gold cap and have it turn into water 1 round after it leaves your body. That way you can get some cool stuff without turning into a gold fountain. Also, it's just a little problematic. Lava is probably cheap. Also, you don't specify volume- one tiny drop of just about anything would be less than 25 gp or so.
How does musical work? You gain bardic music as a bard equal to your HD... then you can sacrifice some uses to gain at-will bardic music better than your HD? So, essentially, you're a better bard than a bard through one feat?
Energy lash: sonic? Noooo. You need to reduce the damage of sonic energy lash. What is the reflex save based off of?
Mirror, mirror: this allows you to get one of the most powerful 4th level spells in the game at 1st level. Do I need to tell you why that's bad? And then the 3rd level spell at will isn't too hot either.
Digger is significantly better than seafaring- in fact, I'd say it's just a little too good.
Also, a lot of the wording on a lot of the abilities is clumsy- Jaws especially, but also the further increase on seafaring.
Psychedelic's still a little too good. Think of it- any illusion spell in the game by 18th level, whichever one you need.
Stabbity: Sneak attack's a little powerful- I'd advise changing it to sudden strike.
Soporific: needs elaboration. Do they have to make a save every round? Does it affect everyone, including allies? Like I've stated before, I hate aura effects, and those reasons are why.
"Further, you may spend your budget for animating yourself on a magical item, instead of a mundane item, if you wish." What does this mean?

[Kajhera]

The deflection bonus to AC is small and clumsy, and I don't really see why it's there at all. Did the original monster get a deflection bonus?

Yes.

Stabbity: Sneak attack's a little powerful- I'd advise changing it to sudden strike.

Sneak attack has the advantage of being SRD.

[Chambers]

Wanted to call dibs on the Vistani for my next project once the Dwarf Ancestor is accepted.

[Kobold-Bard]

Ok, fixed the Stuff Hyudra pointed out.

[AustontheGreat1]

Hey Hyudra,

since your back in town for a bit, would you mind taking a look at the Ragewalker? I'd really like to hear (or read) any input you have. Don't hold anything back, I kind of want this to be a good one...

[Kajhera]

Oh, my group's not too keen on the idea of the incredible shrinking pseudodragon. Would it be exceptionally problematic to just have it start Tiny-sized with a 15' move speed? /pokes Kobold-Bard.

[Kobold-Bard]

Oh, my group's not too keen on the idea of the incredible shrinking pseudodragon. Would it be exceptionally problematic to just have it start Tiny-sized with a 15' move speed? /pokes Kobold-Bard.

It would not be (except for formatting the repost because the original thread has been locked), though I as told to stick with small & medium for low levels. If I get a go ahead from Magic or Gorgon I'll change it.

[Kajhera]

It would not be (except for formatting the repost because the original thread has been locked), though I as told to stick with small & medium for low levels. If I get a go ahead from Magic or Gorgon I'll change it.

Okay, glad to hear your view. We're just not ready for shrinking dragons.

[Gorgondantess]

It would not be (except for formatting the repost because the original thread has been locked), though I as told to stick with small & medium for low levels. If I get a go ahead from Magic or Gorgon I'll change it.

The original thread has been locked only in words so people can still edit things, and yes you can go right ahead. In fact, I'd rather prefer it if you did.
Might just be best to call it small at 1st level and throw it slight build and be done with it.

[Kobold-Bard]

The original thread has been locked only in words so people can still edit things, and yes you can go right ahead. In fact, I'd rather prefer it if you did.
Might just be best to call it small at 1st level and throw it slight build and be done with it.

Oh. Well one of them has been locked. Thought it was that one.

I'll change Tiny size to Slight Build then (anyone got an online version i can copy paste).

[Gorgondantess]

Oh. Well one of them has been locked. Thought it was that one.

I'll change Tiny size to Slight Build then (anyone got an online version i can copy paste).

One of them was locked for a few days until I sent the mod who did so a curt PM, at which time it was unlocked.
Slight build is certainly OGL, and can be found on the Races of the Dragon web enhancement.

[Niezck]

Just saying, but both Gorgon and Magic have OKd the Phrenic Creature if memory serves, so it should go on the list by my reckoning.

[un_known]

Since we have Lich and Demilich could I request the Dracolich to complete the Lich set?

[Rumel]

Since we have Lich and Demilich could I request the Dracolich to complete the Lich set?

May I request this for later... This seems like fun...

[Hyudra]

Alrighty, just wrapped up mah small business taxes for the 2010 year, and I did it in record time, with a cold. Procrastinated like hell on it, but I did manage to get it done. I'm pretty wiped, so I don't know if I'll get to anything more until late tonight or tomorrow.

I'll be sure to look over the Gibbering Mouther and Dwarf Ancestor (Which really should be just one post, to avoid confusion like what I ran into) when I'm done recovering.

After that, I may be wrapping up and posting the Manticore.

Speaking of which - how do you guys interpret the tail spike thing? I read it as striking each creature (each of which must be within 30') with one spike each, to a maximum of 6. The conception of the manticore in the arcade game supports this concept.

But you could read it as having 8 6 ranged attacks that could all target one creature... which is borderline overpowered in terms of raw, ranged damage output.

[Rumel]

Fixed the DemiLich according to Hyudra's list, with a few explanations... The 20+ HD is because this is an epic template, for epic characters only, the Darker Touch ability is pointless, but the Liches all have a touch attack, this just enhances it some (even Wizards get daggers, everyone needs something) and finally the spellcasting ability thing was because not every caster uses Cha or Wis... But I changed it...

Any more critiques or nominations for the Were-Scorpion?

[The Antigamer]

Fixed the DemiLich according to Hyudra's list, with a few explanations... The 20+ HD is because this is an epic template, for epic characters only, the Darker Touch ability is pointless, but the Liches all have a touch attack, this just enhances it some (even Wizards get daggers, everyone needs something) and finally the spellcasting ability thing was because not every caster uses Cha or Wis... But I changed it...

Any more critiques or nominations for the Were-Scorpion?

Still no idea how soulsteal works, or why I'd do it before soul absorption comes around.
Also, there's no "Greater Fell Defense"


Also also, I believe I'll take a stab at updating the Gray Jester to the new standards next week.

[Moose Man]

Love this thread, as i have been aching to play a monster without harsh LA.
Can I request a Medusa/Gorgon class?

[Mystic Muse]

Love this thread, as i have been aching to play a monster without harsh LA.
Can I request a Medusa/Gorgon class?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=17

your wish has been granted.

Although, it's pretty old so it may require editing.

[Rumel]

Sure... Here you go...

[Moose Man]

YAY!! thanks for directing me to oslecamo's medusa, guys.

[Hyudra]

Gibbering Mouther:

• Apologies for adding criticisms that weren't in my original critique... but as far as blood drain goes, I find it a little odd that a medium sized Gibbering Mouther can latch on to a colossal creature with Blood Drain, and the colossal creature can't move as a consequence.
• Might warrant just a strength bonus. Like, a +1 just in there somewhere, once or twice.
• Gibbering - the 20HD effect is kind of lame. I won't dwell on it, because it's high level at that point.
• Gibbering - needs to state what kind of action it takes. Standard? Full?
• It strikes me that the growth of the gibbering mouther skips Gargantuan and goes straight to colossal.
• It's very close to done, but not giving it my vote just yet. A few minor tweaks needed to finish it.

Dwarven Ancestor:

• Quite frankly, I preferred the last version (2nd? It's all so confusingly set up with multiple posts) of the class that I reviewed.
• You've moved back towards the first incarnation of the class, with a mess of passive effects and nothing particularly interesting as far as abilities to spice up combat.
• It struck me that you've got:
  
  • +attack from full BAB.
  • +attack from 3 strength increases.
  • +attack from ancestral spirit.
• I advise losing the strength bonuses and making ancestral spirit apply to all other allies. (ie. Not the dwarf ancestor).
• Dwarven Warcraft was, before, a passive effect that required active attention and positioning to make the most of. I liked it, and expressly said so. It was a little powerful, but that could've been changed. The newer version is a very situational bonus that'll maybe come up in 1 in 5 combats. Didn't do a lot for me.
• You've got dwarven hammer no longer being an active ability added to your in-combat toolbox, but just granting a feat instead.
• Dwarven hammer grants a feat, but still counts as a maneuver in the tome of battle adaptation box.
• It's good convention to have the level an ability is gained, defined in the ability description.
• Stone Warcraft isn't as interesting.
• With the above in mind, postponing vote until there's some tweaking of the high attack bonuses and it's made a little more novel to play.

It just seems like you responded to several criticisms by replacing abilities, rather than tweaking them. The overall effect makes it a lot more like the Knight (less distinct), which I find disappointing, as it was one of the more unique and stand-out homebrew monster classes we had.

With that in mind, I leave it up to you to decide where to take it from here. If you decide to build on the most recent addition, I encourage more abilities in the class' toolbox (stuff a player can choose to do in combat, outside of the standard maneuvers, standard attack & full attack), and perhaps make it less like the knight as far as creating difficult terrain and all that.

I'd find it more appealing if you moved back towards what you had several days before the latest incarnation, though.

[Gorgondantess]

Thorn: For the most part, it looks pretty good... but a few things really annoyed me.
First of all, the subduing strike. That's too much personal preference right there: the base creature doesn't have anything to do with nonlethal damage, and it seems like you're really forcing that. It would be a lot better if you just made it sneak attack.
Or, you could make 2 separate tracks, one a protector and one a slayer- the protector gets some better defenses, subdual strike and sleep arrows, the slayer gets better offenses, sneak attack and Con damage arrows. Just a thought.
The enhancement bonus is a little small. Why not just a scaling attack bonus, or maybe a scaling bonus to crit threat or something like that, and then actually let them enchant the thorn weapons? We don't want the Thorn tossing aside this ability just because they could buy a better weapon than they can make.
Secondly, I don't like the wisdom bonus. There's ONE ability it has based off of wisdom, and the base monster has a wisdom of 10, anyways. I'd scrap it and give it an even mix of 2 of strength, constitution & dexterity (or all 3). Or, give it more wisdom based abilities (but charisma still makes more sense to me).
On the sleep arrows, I don't like how creatures not immune to the sleep only have to make one save, but the creatures immune to sleep have to make repeated saves.
Weapon of Barbs: This might be where you can add in more wisdom- why not just have the melee ability reduce natural armor based on wisdom as opposed to enhancement bonus?
As for the ranged one, a simple -1 to attacks & ability checks should be good as opposed to dexterity.

Lammasu: Spellcasting is HD-2, it should be levels -2. Also, why did you choose that number, specifically?
I've said it many times, and I'll say it again: I don't like specifying what the natural attacks grow to under growth. It already states that they increase one die size on the growth table, and by RAW, if you'd taken improved natural attack then when you grow to a larger size nothing would change.
Otherwise, looks pretty good.

As for the golden protector, I'm just not seeing it. More non-Lammasu would be taking it than lammasu. Not a good thing.
Honestly, I don't see why you're giving it to non-lammasu at all- all a golden protector is is an advanced celestial half dragon lammasu. If someone wants to be a golden protector, they can take the half dragon class and then the planar creature class, if that one's ever finished. I really think it should just be like the ulitharid or flind gnoll: give it to lammasu, and only lammasu.
Secondly, pretty much everything but the 1st level aren't really worth losing spellcasting over: I'd just make it lose the spellcasting at 1st level and gain 2nd-5th.
Don't see why smite is based off of con- shouldn't it be based off of charisma?
As for calling gold dragons... it's pretty sad that you won't be able to get past wyrmlings until 12th level. Just sayin'. Also, the last paragraph there is a little wonky and confusing. Either clarify, or cut it out.
Oh, also text-table errors.

[Chambers]

Hyudra

Dwarven Warcraft / Compare to Flawless Stride (6th level Scout) & Woodland Stride (7th level Ranger, 2nd level Druid). The dwarf ancestor's version of it is better than either of those because it works regardless of armor (since he can't wear armor anyway) and it has an added benefit of resisting bull rush and grapples. I took it from the Vanguard Treads in MIC. When you're at low levels, ignoring difficult terrain is very important for melee characters.

Dwarven & Stone Hammer / As I said, they were almost straight copies of ToB maneuvers and offered better damage output than a similar level ToB character because the dwarf ancestor could use it each round without having to refresh it.

Full BAB & Strength bonuses / I disagree with the design idea that bruiser races/classes should get 3/4 bab. The bruiser relies on his BAB to hit and deal damage through things like Power Attack - it needs the high BAB. The skillful attacker should have other ways of doing damage than sacking their BAB, so they don't need as much, hence the 3/4 for skilled melee classes.

Ability & Level / Noted, good idea. I'll add the levels to the ability descriptions.

Dwarven Hammer & ToB Adaptation / It still counts as a maneuver for ToB because it's about bull rushing, which is one thing that the Stone Dragon discipline uses.

---

Overall, I disagree with you on a general level about it's functionality and distinctiveness. It's a solid melee warrior. It doesn't do all the neat tricks and such that a full initator would do, but that's because it's not an ToB class. I think it stands up to a 6th level ToB class though. This guy can make difficult terrain, ignore difficult terrain, ignore crits & sneak attacks, ignore some damage with scaling DR, knock opponents around the battlefield and grant a minor attack and damage bonus to himself and his allies. Perhaps it is like the Knight, but I'd like to think it works better than the Knight does.

I don't plan on changing the Full BAB/+3 Strength bonus, as reasoned above. I'll think about what other things I could add to his combat options.

[Hyudra]

Hyudra

Dwarven Warcraft / Compare to Flawless Stride (6th level Scout) & Woodland Stride (7th level Ranger, 2nd level Druid). The dwarf ancestor's version of it is better than either of those because it works regardless of armor (since he can't wear armor anyway) and it has an added benefit of resisting bull rush and grapples. I took it from the Vanguard Treads in MIC. When you're at low levels, ignoring difficult terrain is very important for melee characters.

Right, but it's still more boring, passive and less involved than what you had before, which was a great ability to define the Dwarf Ancestor's role as a tank. Immunity to difficult terrain is just kind of plain. It has, much as you stated in the quoted text here, more or less been done several times before.

The 'make squares around you into difficult terrain' is again, doing this, because it is what the knight does and that's just kinda boring when you already had a good (if potentially in need of tweaks), creative option prior to this conceptualization.

Dwarven & Stone Hammer / As I said, they were almost straight copies of ToB maneuvers and offered better damage output than a similar level ToB character because the dwarf ancestor could use it each round without having to refresh it.

The old versions could have been tweaked one way or another, and would have been involved, active abilities that would expand a player's options beyond just combat maneuvers, standard attack and full attack. The bull rush bonus is essentially giving you a feat that 95% of fighters do not bother taking.

The Stone Hammer ability, with the knockback, is a little more active, but it only works if the enemy prompts it, so again, you've taken an active ability that a player had in their list of options and made it more passive and less interactive for the player using it.

Full BAB & Strength bonuses / I disagree with the design idea that bruiser races/classes should get 3/4 bab. The bruiser relies on his BAB to hit and deal damage through things like Power Attack - it needs the high BAB. The skillful attacker should have other ways of doing damage than sacking their BAB, so they don't need as much, hence the 3/4 for skilled melee classes.

Either give it full BAB and take away the strength/aura bonus or take away the full BAB. If you can't do either in good conscience because it lacks genuinely desirable combat options, then that's just pointing to a clear problem in the design.

It just shouldn't have both or it just stands head and shoulders above most other classes in this thread (the full BAB classes without strength bonuses and the brutes without full BAB) without even trying.

Dwarven Hammer & ToB Adaptation / It still counts as a maneuver for ToB because it's about bull rushing, which is one thing that the Stone Dragon discipline uses.

I could understand that with the class feature that grants the bull rushes on certain attacks, perhaps, but the class feature that lets you know Improved Bull Rush? It's odd for that to somehow count against your maneuvers.

If you disagree with me, you're welcome to take a stab at convincing Gorgon and Yop. As it is, I'm just not satisfied with what I'm looking at, which is disappointing because I really liked the previous incarnation.

[Chambers]

If you disagree with me, you're welcome to take a stab at convincing Gorgon and Yop. As it is, I'm just not satisfied with what I'm looking at, which is disappointing because I really liked the previous incarnation.

Just a quick response and I'll get to your other points later.

The things you mentioned you liked were what I felt were the least creative aspects of the class. Look at the Bonecrusher maneuver and the Thicket of Blades stance. It was pretty much the same thing. I dropped those because I wanted to try something different. Obviously haven't gotten that much different because I've now copied a magic item and the knights ability instead.

I realize this is kinda a weird argument for me to make, but it just felt weird to me that what you thought was creative were the parts that were simply copy+paste.

[Hyudra]

I like where the Awakened Cat is currently at. As far as a creature with a niche appeal (though it's not a small niche), it works. Giving it my vote.

Re: Dwarven Ancestor - why not try coming up with original material, then? We should try to avoid copy + paste anways, right?