An ambitious dream: Statting Touhou girls with 3.5

[Scarlet-Devil]

If you want Str, a dragonborn (mind) water orc with one level of barbarian has +8 Str and Con while raging. Stuff like mineral warrior can improve that.

Yeeah, but Tenshi isn't a water orc, nor a barbarian, and certainly not a mineral warrior; she's a celestial. Hideaway is good, and adamantine or something similar (starmetal, aurorum etc) wouldn't hurt (because it's got to be "durable enough to channel the powerful strength of the celestials"), and adamantine definitely helps with destroying rock.

As far as class I'm still pretty uncertain; stone dragon stuff is good, and maybe a few of the other disciplines' maneuvers, but Swordsages or Crusaders can't control land and weather. For that I'd say spells are more appropriate, and since certain angels and things get free cleric casting, it makes some kind of gestalt more feasible. I tend to wonder about her wisdom though... but I guess maybe even the very wise might do brash things out of boredom, particularly if they live perfect, untroubled lives.

As for throwing her sword, she only does it in like one move that I can think of, so Bloodstorm Blade definitely seems like overkill. I don't know what lightning throw is, but whirling blade could be okay. Still though, there's the matter of her freely drawing it whenever she wants, which basically means Quick Draw or crystal of return (or maybe a few other things), and it returning to her. I'm loathe to make it the property of another magic item like a pair of gloves, since it seems to be either Tenshi or the sword itself that allows her to do those things with it (and there's no evidence I know of to suggest otherwise).

[Prime32]

Yeeah, but Tenshi isn't a water orc, nor a barbarian, and certainly not a mineral warrior; she's a celestial.

Why can't she be a celestial and a mineral warrior? She's tough, strong, and she can smite people standing on earth.

I'm loathe to make it the property of another magic item like a pair of gloves, since it seems to be either Tenshi or the sword itself that allows her to do those things with it (and there's no evidence I know of to suggest otherwise).

Having powers from a bunch of magic items is part of being a D&D character, and can make up much of their more exotic abilities - without such items it is not a complete build. Most characters in other mediums have nowhere near that many items. However, items can easily be refluffed as innate powers. Magic items would also allow adding weather control while keeping a martial base.

Let me put it this way - would you prefer to give Tenshi a bunch of items that grant powers she doesn't have?

[Scarlet-Devil]

Why can't she be a celestial and a mineral warrior? She's tough, strong, and she can smite people standing on earth.

Having powers from a bunch of magic items is part of being a D&D character, and can make up much of their more exotic abilities - without such items it is not a complete build. Most characters in other mediums have nowhere near that many items. However, items can easily be refluffed as innate powers. Magic items would also allow adding weather control while keeping a martial base.

Let me put it this way - would you prefer to give Tenshi a bunch of items that grant powers she doesn't have?

Because mineral warriors are creatures made of stone, Tenshi has skin and hair; they also take penalties to all of their mental stats. It only makes (partial) sense in terms of abilities.

Items can't really be refluffed as innate powers, because what happens if they get destroyed or you take them off? Where'd your "innate" powers go? Most things that can be done with magic items can be done, and usually better, by actual class features or racial abilities. We pretty much know that everything Tenshi does is either a function of her magical sword or her own celestial abilities, so giving her extra equipment at all is unnecessary and probably inappropriate.

A quick play-through of SWR as Reimu reminded me that Tenshi needs to be able to pretty much flawlessly predict the weather; the survival skill would do that, with a lot of ranks, but there might be other ways too. Also there's that whole thing (the story of the game) about creating localized weather around people based on their personality... and that's a little complicated. But then again, it's a property of the Sword of Hisou (I think), so maybe we can just kind've hand-wave it as a unique artifact property of the sword.

[Jm2c]

Because mineral warriors are creatures made of stone, Tenshi has skin and hair; they also take penalties to all of their mental stats. It only makes (partial) sense in terms of abilities.

Doesn't matter. The whole stone thing is just flavor. Prime statted Rumia as a Halfling Warlock 1. Rumia isn't a halfling, she's a Youkai. However, she's short, so he used Halfling as the race. The same principle applies here. Tenshi isn't a Stony Water Orc. Everyone will agree on that. However, the abilities match up - the stony bit is just flavor, and flavor can be changed at will, so long as it still matches the mechanics.
Seriously, if you want to keep the flavor of D&D, this won't work.

As for predicting the weather, yeah, just give her some Survival ranks, Cross-class if need be. She doesn't need many - a +5 modifier is enough to predict the weather one day in advance if you take 10.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Tenshi isn't a Stony Water Orc. Everyone will agree on that. However, the abilities match up - the stony bit is just flavor, and flavor can be changed at will, so long as it still matches the mechanics.

Now imagine trying to be so arbitrary in an actual campaign, i.e. the characters encounter some orcs: "this orc is about seven feet tall, thick muscles ripple beneath its coarsely haired, grey-green skin, and it is garbed in stained, stinking leathers, crudely studded with iron rivets. That orc is a beautiful, fair skinned girl, strangely human looking but with long blue hair; she is petite in build and wears a long frilly dress.

And then what happens when the players try to determine what kind of creature they've encountered with a knowledge check? Something like: "okay, that was a pretty good roll. Your exceptional knowledge of creatures allows you to deduce that the young girl before you, who claims to be some sort of celestial, is in fact an orc, made of living rock and infused with elemental water somehow. She adjusts her hat and smiles innocently."

I don't know... personally I would feel a whole lot more comfortable calling her an astral deva (which actually sounds like what she is), or anything really, that's even vaguely appropriate and doesn't sound so outrageous in the game world.

Edit: The idea is to stat them up accurately enough that we could actually throw them into a game, ideally, if we actually wanted to.

[Jm2c]

And then what happens when the players try to determine what kind of creature they've encountered with a knowledge check? Something like: "okay, that was a pretty good roll. Your exceptional knowledge of creatures allows you to deduce that the young girl before you, who claims to be some sort of celestial, is in fact an orc, made of living rock and infused with elemental water somehow. She adjusts her hat and smiles innocently."

"Your knowledge check tells you that this is a so-called Celestial, member of a race of supposedly enlightened beings that live above the clouds on top of an impossibly high mountain, in a society that knows no hardship or strife. Celestials are said to be as strong and resilient as the stone of the mountain peak they reside on - possibly more, and they hold a link to the clouds that rain water upon the world below, but never on them."
Further Knowledge checks may reveal stuff about this specific Celestial and/or the Sword of Hisou, or specific racial abilities of the "Celestial" race (i.e. Water Orcs witht he Mineral Warrior template). If it helps, think of it as creating a homebrew race and stealing the ability modifiers and abilities from that race and template for the mechanics.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Further Knowledge checks may reveal stuff about this specific Celestial and/or the Sword of Hisou, or specific racial abilities of the "Celestial" race (i.e. Water Orcs witht he Mineral Warrior template). If it helps, think of it as creating a homebrew race and stealing the ability modifiers and abilities from that race and template for the mechanics.

Specific racial abilities also include being Humanoid: Orc with the Earth subtype (Earth subtype actually kind've makes sense, but if they had that, they should probably have the air subtype as well) and -4 penalties on all mental stats, not to mention orcs' nocturnal penalties (being dazzled or whatever in daylight). So what we have are a race of perfect, enlightened people who live on the highest mountains above the clouds, but can't stand sunlight and are severely cognitively hampered. Hmm...

Celestial human is okay, except for the obvious reason of not giving big physical bonuses. Half-celestial is slightly better, kind've, with flight that doesn't depend on wings. If no one else does it, then soon, when I have time, I'm going to look through the fiend folio, BOED, and every monster manual, to see if there's anything better.

[Prime32]

Specific racial abilities also include being Humanoid: Orc with the Earth subtype (Earth subtype actually kind've makes sense, but if they had that, they should probably have the air subtype as well) and -4 penalties on all mental stats, not to mention orcs' nocturnal penalties (being dazzled or whatever in daylight). So what we have are a race of perfect, enlightened people who live on the highest mountains above the clouds, but can't stand sunlight and are severely cognitively hampered. Hmm...

Dragonborn template removes all racial abilities except stat adjustments and a few other things like Powerful Build. Otherworldly feat makes you an Outsider. And all celestials don't need to be mentally hampered, just Tenshi.

Tenshi doesn't seem to have any particular connection to air beyond what's standard for a Touhou character.

I wouldn't worry too hard about flight unless the character in question has wings - there are plenty of ways to get it, and if you were running a Touhou campaign you'd probably get it for free.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Dragonborn template removes all racial abilities except stat adjustments and a few other things like Powerful Build. Otherworldly feat makes you an Outsider. And all celestials don't need to be mentally hampered, just Tenshi.

Tenshi doesn't seem to have any particular connection to air beyond what's standard for a Touhou character.

I wouldn't worry too hard about flight unless the character in question has wings - there are plenty of ways to get it, and if you were running a Touhou campaign you'd probably get it for free.

Well, she has a connection to air in that she has a connection to weather; she can manipulate and detect changes in weather, and she's extremely sensitive to changes in the air.

Anyway, I found a creature I kind of like; the Justice Archon. It's a pretty nondescript medium sized human-like creature, a rank and file warrior of Celestia. They're from MM4. They get +6 strength, +2 dex, +10 con, no change to int, +2 wis, and +4 cha. They also get very few unnecessary spell-like abilities. Seems almost perfect, if we're gestalting (they have 6 racial hit dice and a +5 LA), but I suggest others check it out first.

She could basically look something like CN justice archon gestalt cleric?(earth and weather(CD) domains) 9/swordsage 20, with max ranks in survival (some way to get it as a class skill would be very good), the Sword of Hisou, and a lot of keystones (whatever they are). She would have high strength and con, and maybe high wisdom (she is very perceptive, and there's no reason a wise person couldn't choose to do foolish things, right?).

[Jjeinn-tae]

Well, she has a connection to air in that she has a connection to weather; she can manipulate and detect changes in weather, and she's extremely sensitive to changes in the air.

Anyway, I found a creature I kind of like; the Justice Archon. It's a pretty nondescript medium sized human-like creature, a rank and file warrior of Celestia. They're from MM4. They get +6 strength, +2 dex, +10 con, no change to int, +2 wis, and +4 cha. They also get very few unnecessary spell-like abilities. Seems almost perfect, if we're gestalting (they have 6 racial hit dice and a +5 LA), but I suggest others check it out first.

She could basically look something like CN justice archon gestalt cleric?(earth and weather(CD) domains) 9/swordsage 20, with max ranks in survival (some way to get it as a class skill would be very good), the Sword of Hisou, and a lot of keystones (whatever they are). She would have high strength and con, and maybe high wisdom (she is very perceptive, and there's no reason a wise person couldn't choose to do foolish things, right?).

There are many times a wise person could chose to do foolish things. In Tenshi's case, it probably means she has more charisma than wisdom, her force of personality drives her actions more than her perception.

I don't have MM4, but what you've said of the stats of Justice Archons seem to match up in my mind.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Well, I felt like posting a very rough draft of what she might look like, so here goes: Tenshi Hinanawi (highly speculative and incomplete)

Spoiler

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CN? Female Celestial (Justice Archon)
(Gestalt) Something/Swordsage 20
HD: 20d8+A lot
Attacks: Sword of Hisou +27/+22/+17 melee (1d8+12(+16 TH)/19-20/x2) or Unarmed Strike +23/+18/+13 melee (2d6+8)
STR: 26? DEX: ? CON: 20+? INT: ? WIS: 16+? CHA: ?

Maneuvers: A lot of Stone Dragon; Earthstrike Quake, maybe Wyrm's Flame, Hearing the Air, Dragon's Flame, maybe Time stands still, maybe Fan the flames...

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, ?????

Skills: Survival +a bunch

Possessions: Sword of Hisou, Keystones

This would be a lot easier using Mythweavers, so I guess I'll do that later. I still have no idea what a keystone would be, or how much damage they do, but I guess they pretty much have to be custom items. I also have few ideas in the way of lasers and her cones; I don't really think they're fire, but you never know, and I threw in some Desert Wind things anyway.

But yeah, I'm feeling newly daunted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfHlQnNIxY8

Question: Can a flying creature bull rush enemies vertically?

Edit: Ah, one of the DR stone dragon things could work for her super armor spellcard.

[Shade Kerrin]

I also have few ideas in the way of lasers and her cones; I don't really think they're fire, but you never know, and I threw in some Desert Wind things anyway.

Well according to The Grimoire of Marisa, her wide-beam attack is actually a hyper-dense mass of her laser attacks. Probably entirely incidental, though.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Well according to The Grimoire of Marisa, her wide-beam attack is actually a hyper-dense mass of her laser attacks. Probably entirely incidental, though.

Mmm, if anything I'd say that information just makes it more complicated ... My first instinct is to turn to the warlock, as they seem to be pretty useful for mimicking a lot of magic projectile attacks, and the cone attack becomes no problem. If hyper-dense means that it's more powerful, then it could possibly be empowered or maximized. Maybe, her standard multi-laser blast could be an eldritch cone, and her more powerful, spellcard, blasts (which have much less space between them) could be heightened/otherwise metamagicked eldritch cones...

But yeah, I don't know how well warlock works for her otherwise, invocations and all. The only earth-related invocations that jump to mind are earthen/stony grasp, though I'm sure there must be a few more that are at least somewhat appropriate. Rolling everything into a single, neat little package is difficult, even with gestalt...

Edit: But yeah, I hadn't thought of the Grimoire of Marisa; I'm sure it could be helpful for this.

[Shade Kerrin]

Yeah, I've found both it and PMiSS to be quite useful in attempting to figure out how to best put the Touhou girls in to various systems, both providing some not-quite obvious information that becomes relevant when you are done with just shooting endless streams of projectiles at each other.

Side note, I wonder how difficult the 13 crowd will be to stat out.
Side side note, we should do the Catfish some time.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Side note, I wonder how difficult the 13 crowd will be to stat out.
Side side note, we should do the Catfish some time.

Mm, I look forward to finding out , and yes we should, though I have no ideas off the top of my head, besides starting with an awakened fish with the titanic template (MM2 I think), if there are actually any fish stats around.

[Drascin]

Because mineral warriors are creatures made of stone, Tenshi has skin and hair; they also take penalties to all of their mental stats. It only makes (partial) sense in terms of abilities.

To be honest, "Penalties to all mental abilities" does sound like Tenshi. She's not the brightest bulb, she has the common sense and empathy of a lemming, and is widely acknowledged as a disliked brat. She's also tough and strong and resistant. I'd give her the template, myself. Making her an orc is pushing it, but the template at least fits everything except the physical description.

[Shade Kerrin]

Hehehehe...Double Scarlet


Sorry, had to say it.

[NNescio]

Kaenbyou Rin

Tibbit Focused Nekoromancer 3*/ Dread Nekoromancer 1†/Focused Nekoromancer 1/Ultimate Magus 5/True Nekoromancer 10‡

* Dropping Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration.
† Practiced Spellcaster is needed here.
‡ Uses Arcane Disciple (Death) to qualify and Southern Spellcaster to advance both sides.

Familiar: Raven

Also has the Surrogate Spell feat.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Kaenbyou Rin

Tibbit Focused Nekoromancer 3*/ Dread Nekoromancer 1†/Focused Nekoromancer 1/Ultimate Magus 5/True Nekoromancer 10‡

* Dropping Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration.
† Practiced Spellcaster is needed here.
‡ Uses Arcane Disciple (Death) to qualify and Southern Spellcaster to advance both sides.

Familiar: Raven

Also has the Surrogate Spell feat.

...

Mm, jokes aside, I suppose that probably works well enough, if the right spells are chosen (she would probably have a very limited spellbook). Basically she shapechanges into the form of a cat (without losing her powers), flies and fires magical bullets (obviously), animates ghosts, and transports corpses around. Hengeyokai would work about as well (maybe better thematically) for her race I think.

[NNescio]

...

Mm, jokes aside, I suppose that probably works well enough, if the right spells are chosen (she would probably have a very limited spellbook). Basically she shapechanges into the form of a cat (without losing her powers), flies and fires magical bullets (obviously), animates ghosts, and transports corpses around. Hengeyokai would work about as well (maybe better thematically) for her race I think.

Sorry for the pun.

IIRC Hengeyoukai have a hybrid form (which Orin doesn't have), a limited number of transformations per day, and a +1 Level Adjustment.

Edit: Here's Aya:

Shameimaru Aya
Raptoran* Cleric 7†/Skypledged 10/Cleric 3

Deity: Philosophical Cause - Truth
Domains: Air, Travel

Feats: Improved Initiative, Travel Devotion, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Flight. (And maybe Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM Persistent Spell.)

Equipment: Maple Leaf Fan (Mace, Heavy), Tengu Geta x2 (Raptoran Foot Spike) Silver Pen (Holy Symbol, Silver), Pencils (Nightsticks), Investigative Journal (Masterwork Tool - Gather Information)

*DnD Tengu suck, appearance-wise. Raptoran is also needed to qualify for Skypledged, and they have pointy ears as well.
† Raptoran Racial Substitution Levels.

Lots and lots of air/wind manipulation goodies. Turning attempts are used to power Travel Devotion (Wind Sign "Tengu's Newspaper Deadline Day"). There are four major problems though:
1) The whole spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure/inflict spells bit. (anyone knows of a flaw or ACF that trades it away?)
2) No crow/raven familiar (can take one level of wizard to get one though.)
3) No projectile spamming. (hard to get unless one is a warlock or have a reserve feat. Or just lots of spellslots.)
4) No camera. (can probably be handled by a custom magic item.)

[Prime32]

1) The whole spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure/inflict spells bit. (anyone knows of a flaw or ACF that trades it away?)

There's an option somewhere to cast from one of your domains spontaneously instead. Check the Cleric Handbook.

Also:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...4514#msg384514
You can see my other thoughts further up the page. Illusory Dominance is hustle + Tornado Throw.


As a side-note, if I wanted to put an Aya expy in an Eberron game I'd probably go with a half-elf human with a cloak of flying and levels in that Mark of Travel PrC. There's probably dragonshard-powered cameras in some splat.

[Shade Kerrin]

Well, time I had a crack at making one of these, so here we go

Lyrica, Lunasa & Merlin Prismriver:

Spoiler

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N? Female Ghost(Ghostwalk Version, Human base)
Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Eidoloncer 5+
HD: 16d6+Con

STR: - DEX: ? CON: ? INT: ? WIS: ? CHA: High

Spells: Such items as Amplify, Sonic Burst, Cacophonic Burst. Lunasa specifically has Dirge, Merlin has Fugue(change the focus needed) and Lyrica has more spells that focus on the side effect of sound rather than the mental effect.

Feats: 1 -Melodic Casting, H - Clap of Thunder, 3 - Skill focus:Perform(Violin / Trumpet / Keyboard), LT - Captivating Melody 6 - ?? - Metamagic, 9 - Cooperative Spell, E1 - Ghost Hand, 12 - Poltergeist Hand, 15 - Control Visage, E5 - Solid Visage

Skills: Perform(Violin / Trumpet / Keyboard), Listen, other stuff.

Possessions: Instruments (don't know what to do with them yet)

Notes:
I'm following similar logic to Akyu, in that while they aren't strictly speaking ghosts, there isn't really a better way to handle them.
Using 3.0 material here, but I've always been rather partial to the way Ghostwalk handles ghosts.
Lunasa's presence supposedly causes a depressing effect, while Merlin's causes the opposite. The first was easy, but I couldn't really find anything suitable for Merlin.
They would probably have 9 or 10 levels in Eidoloncer, since at 10 they are at risk of passing on, which they received warning of from Shikieiki

[Prime32]

Not familiar with Ghostwalk, but shouldn't they have Cooperative Spell?

[Shade Kerrin]

I'd forgotten about that one, I'll add it in

[Tsuzurao]

Sorry for the pun.

IIRC Hengeyoukai have a hybrid form (which Orin doesn't have), a limited number of transformations per day, and a +1 Level Adjustment.

The other restrictions still apply, but Dragon Magazine #318 covers updating Oriental Adventures to 3.5e. Among the updated details, Hengeyokai no longer have Level Adjustment.

Perhaps you could implement a homebrew flaw to lock out the hybrid form? *Shrugs*


As for other things I've seen in this thread... Cirno's Intelligence. What you did there, I see it.


I don't have any other suggestions for character builds at the moment.

[Jjeinn-tae]

The other restrictions still apply, but Dragon Magazine #318 covers updating Oriental Adventures to 3.5e. Among the updated details, Hengeyokai no longer have Level Adjustment.

Perhaps you could implement a homebrew flaw to lock out the hybrid form? *Shrugs*


As for other things I've seen in this thread... Cirno's Intelligence. What you did there, I see it.

Isn't Rin's normal form hybrid kind of, I mean she has cat ears in addition to normal ears, could of sworn she had a tail too, but I guess not. The more I think on this the more it falls apart I guess...

She could just not use it out of preference, maybe she doesn't want to be a human-sized fur covered cat-girl... or maybe it's the tail, those are annoying probably...


On Cirno, really I think she could probably be higher than that without going against what the games show, ZUN seemed to smarten her up a bit, she just doesn't think before doing something. At least she's a genius among fairies.

[Prime32]

As for other things I've seen in this thread... Cirno's Intelligence. What you did there, I see it.

On Cirno, really I think she could probably be higher than that without going against what the games show, ZUN seemed to smarten her up a bit, she just doesn't think before doing something. At least she's a genius among fairies.

Wis 9 then?

[NNescio]

...On Cirno, really I think she could probably be higher than that without going against what the games show, ZUN seemed to smarten her up a bit, she just doesn't think before doing something. At least she's a genius among fairies.

I don't know, she seems less smart than a normal human, or at least this is the impression I've got from Hisoutensoku, Sangetsusei, and FW. Int 9 (slightly lower than a 10) seems really appropriate.

Not to mention that the Three Fairies are probably smarter than Cirno, especially Star Sapphire (who probably has an INT of 12).

[Jjeinn-tae]

Ok, here's my special ability, the ability to look into anything too deeply

Yes, she is definitely below average of the modern day earth-human, but that can't really be the standard for the DnD system, otherwise everyone in the average DnD world would have to be like 6. Basic knowledge among us is the existence of molecules, atoms and cells, which even the brightest of the best in the average DnD setting seem oblivious to. Which is odd, since in real life cells were discovered with a magnifying glass. *shrug* I could go on in more detail here, but I'll spare you, and I'll just assume that 10 and 11 are the average human from your world.

Ok, Touhou takes place in relatively modern times, but Cirno lives in Gensoukyou, which is shown to in general be relatively backwards. With magic around, there isn't much use for science, and the advanced peoples are rather small communities. The humans there are probably similar to the average DnD community, except replace the odd European assumptions of how the world works with odd Japanese ones.

Cirno can read which is not universal here (Mystia) and she knows fractions which seems to be among the highest of theoretical mathematics of uneducated society in a world like that. No that's still not amazing, but I think it is past nine, I'd put her at 10.

Though yeah, she's not as smart as the other named fairies, but the normal ones are like bugs to a bug zapper with Reimu's bullets... so at least that's something.


And if there's any doubt, this was not meant to be hostile.

[Shade Kerrin]

To add to that,

Spoiler

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As I remember she was one of only a couple of characters to seriously think about what Shiki had lectured her on.

Her problem is recklessness, not intelligence.