[Base Class]The Mutant (I Wanna be an Eidolon!)

[Vhaidara]

So, I've frequently found myself wanting to play as a Summoner's Eidolon, but the closest I've ever been able to get is the Synthesist, which has 2 problems
1. A lot of people think it's horribly overpowered, despite being weaker than a normal Summoner
2. It kind of gimps you because you still have your Summoner. So the eidolon can be banished, or killed separately, and your party expects you to cast.

So I felt like making a class for those of us who want to play as an Eidolon.

Okay, I hate working with the tables on this site. So it's in a Google doc now.

The Mutant. Comments are enabled on the doc.

[Vhaidara]

Saving a post for if I need on in the future, and for explaining design goals.

Design Goals:
I wanted to let people play as an eidolon, since evolutions are fun. As I explained above, though, this is hard when the enemy can just target your squishy friend the summoner. Or making a guy who was mutated by magic, and now hates casters. But you need a caster following you around.

So, I took the eidolon's base model for saves (default I went with Good Fort and Reflex), BAB (full) and HD (d10). I also took the evolution points, added one because you don't get a default natural weapon (claws or bite). I also baked in the increases from taking Extra Evolution, so that they can spend their feats on things that are actually useful.

Then, I needed class features. Mutant Surge is a cross between Rage and Evolution Surge, allowing some on the fly evolution.

Metamorphosis, meanwhile, was designed to be for utility. Perhaps you don't (for flavor reasons) want to have a fly speed all the time. Suddenly, the party needs someone who can fly. You can suddenly sprout a pair of wings and fly the party across the pit. This lets you have some of the utility of casting without being inherently magical.

Mutations are a customization filler item, similar to Magus Arcanas, Alchemist Discoveries, Stalker Arts, etc. I'm looking for more of them, but the ones that I have already in should be a good guideline.

[calam]

Cool, one of my players wanted to play exactly this class so I'm going to check this out.

[Vhaidara]

Cool, one of my players wanted to play exactly this class so I'm going to check this out.

I figured I wasn't the only one. That's why I made it. Let me know how it goes, and let me know if, during play, anything comes up for Mutation ideas.

[IZ42]

You could do a Powerful Build sort of mutation, where you count as Large(or one size larger of you have the size increasing evolution) when it would be beneficial to you, and then have a converse Agile Build, where you count as one size smaller when it benefits you, and have them be exclusive towards each other.

I might have somee ideas kicking around.

How about this: Evasion requires Agile Build as a prerequisite mutation, and if you have powerful build, you can gain the ability to roll Fortitude and STR based skill checks twice, and take the better of the two results.

[Vhaidara]

I like that, and took it. However, I went for giving them the option of acquiring Mettle (Fort only) if they have Powerful Build.

I also added on Mutational Suppression, for all your town-going needs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I swear I've seen this recently...

But as for your take on the idea...

• Mutant Surge might not be functioning as you want it-- right now it's useable at will, where I think you mean "x total rounds, divided up how you want."
• Metamorphosis, while nice for versatility, seems like the kind of thing that could really slow things down in the middle of a game.
• Mutations on top of Evolutions just seem redundant-- all of those look like either existing or potential Evolutions. Two sets of abilities granting essentially the same powers strikes me as sloppy game design. I'd strike the idea altogether, honestly-- the continual addition of new Evolutions is plenty to keep things interesting as you level up.

[Elricaltovilla]

I would consider making Metamorphosis last 10 min per level. Makes it similar to the Alchemist's mutagen ability, which I feel is a good baseline to start with, especially since it can't really be used effectively in combat.

[Vhaidara]

I swear I've seen this recently...

Clearly that is nothing like this! It's 3.5 content!

But actually, I didn't even see that. I was building a character, and got annoyed that if I got too beaten up, I no longer be mutated. So, this.

Mutant Surge might not be functioning as you want it-- right now it's useable at will, where I think you mean "x total rounds, divided up how you want."

Yeah, that's a holdover from how I was originally going to do it (at will, lasted x rounds, then some nasty drawback for twice as long)

Metamorphosis, while nice for versatility, seems like the kind of thing that could really slow things down in the middle of a game.

What if I limited to reallocating double the value of your Mutant Surge? Makes it less extensive, but keeps the ability to be versatile

Mutations on top of Evolutions just seem redundant-- all of those look like either existing or potential Evolutions. Two sets of abilities granting essentially the same powers strikes me as sloppy game design. I'd strike the idea altogether, honestly-- the continual addition of new Evolutions is plenty to keep things interesting as you level up.

I was trying to not have a blank table, since that's not generally a thing that shows up in PF. And I'm trying to make the mutations different from evolutions, which is why I added things like Powerful/Agile Build and Mutational Suppression. And give them the ability to pick up some bonus feats. Though I suppose I could bake those into the class

I would consider making Metamorphosis last 10 min per level. Makes it similar to the Alchemist's mutagen ability, which I feel is a good baseline to start with, especially since it can't really be used effectively in combat.

Well, my thought was to make it a valuable resource by tying the duration to the uses. If I do scrap Mutations, I'll probably make that change, since as it stands the main things that Mutations are good for is grabbing up Extra Metamorphosis and Extra Mutant Surge.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Clearly that is nothing like this! It's 3.5 content!

It's fine. I was puffing up to be indignant, than I saw that you did things pretty much totally different from how I did.

What if I limited to reallocating double the value of your Mutant Surge? Makes it less extensive, but keeps the ability to be versatile

How about making it an overnight thing? Go to sleep (in your cocoon?), wake up with a different body. That way you get day-to-day versatility, while Mutation Surge lets you handle the immediate "I need this now" business.

I was trying to not have a blank table, since that's not generally a thing that shows up in PF. And I'm trying to make the mutations different from evolutions, which is why I added things like Powerful/Agile Build and Mutational Suppression. And give them the ability to pick up some bonus feats. Though I suppose I could bake those into the class

It's not they're mechanically identical to evolutions, it's that they're conceptually identical to evolutions. You have two distinct class features representing the whole "my body is changing" thing.

You could spin some into actual class features, aye-- Mutational Disguise in particular seems like a necessity for most campaigns. Mutant Fortitude would slot in nicely at level 3 (as an Evasion-style boost), and bonus feats are always a decent thing to grant. And if you still have empty levels... I'd recommend coming up with a secondary specialization, like how my Endocist has a side focus on dealing with outsiders. It helps give the class more flavor and more versatility. Maybe something with aberrations? (A Wild Empathy analogue? Favored Enemy type bonuses?)

[Vhaidara]

How about making it an overnight thing? Go to sleep (in your cocoon?), wake up with a different body. That way you get day-to-day versatility, while Mutation Surge lets you handle the immediate "I need this now" business.

Well, I didn't want to make Red Mage the class (full rebuild every day). And Mutation Surge was more meant to provide in combat adaptability. One of the situations I imagined for Metamorphosis was needing to fly the party across a chasm: you grow wings and carry them one at a time.

It's not they're mechanically identical to evolutions, it's that they're conceptually identical to evolutions. You have two distinct class features representing the whole "my body is changing" thing.

Fair point. I suppose my conceptual divide was that Mutations were permanent and more powerful, while Evolutions were more fluid and focused (more of them, Mutant Surge, Metamorphosis)

You could spin some into actual class features, aye-- Mutational Disguise in particular seems like a necessity for most campaigns. Mutant Fortitude would slot in nicely at level 3 (as an Evasion-style boost), and bonus feats are always a decent thing to grant. And if you still have empty levels... I'd recommend coming up with a secondary specialization, like how my Endocist has a side focus on dealing with outsiders. It helps give the class more flavor and more versatility. Maybe something with aberrations? (A Wild Empathy analogue? Favored Enemy type bonuses?)

I could probably do something with aberrations, good idea. Favored Enemy is another interesting idea. I've got a drive coming up and I'll brainstorm during that.

I'm considering making a level 2 ability where you choose Agile or Powerful Build. This then determines if you get Mutant Reflexes or Mutant Fortitude

Bonus feats were a case of me not wanting to steal the Fighter's thing too badly, but I prefer being highly generous with feats (I would personally give the fighter a feat at every level on top of what he has)

Mutational Suppression was made optional because, while it may seem necessary, it's one of those abilities I could see people wanting at different levels. Some people will want it at level 1, so that they can blend in before going all monster. Others will want to delay it, because their character isn't at that level of controlling their form yet. And some people will just want to tell all the NPCs who have a problem with it to go jump in a lake.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, I didn't want to make Red Mage the class (full rebuild every day). And Mutation Surge was more meant to provide in combat adaptability. One of the situations I imagined for Metamorphosis was needing to fly the party across a chasm: you grow wings and carry them one at a time.

Hmm, I missed the limited duration. Still, we again run into the redundant class features business-- you've got two sets of abilities that both represent rapidly changing your mutations. They have their own niche, sure, but it looks and feels sloppy. I suggest merging them-- the handful of points from Mutation Surge is plenty to pick up plenty of versatility. Look at how many seriously nice utility evolutions you can grab for a point or two-- movement modes, scent, a hefty skill bonus, flight, water breathing, tremorsense... the combination of Mutation Surge/utility evolution seems to do a pretty good job keeping pace with what's level-appropriate. (Climb speed or skill boosts at 1st, concealment or tremorsense at 4th, burrow or see invisibilityat 8th, lifesense or dimension door at 12th...) To have it last long enough to be useful, have Metamorphosis be a special version of Mutation Surge, where you take a few minutes to activate the ability, but each round of duration instead counts as 10 minutes.

I'm considering making a level 2 ability where you choose Agile or Powerful Build. This then determines if you get Mutant Reflexes or Mutant Fortitude

I like it. You should maybe also have a version where you stay the same size but get some other bonus (and "Mutant Will" later on)

Bonus feats were a case of me not wanting to steal the Fighter's thing too badly, but I prefer being highly generous with feats (I would personally give the fighter a feat at every level on top of what he has)

That's the Fighter's problem. Don't make other classes suffer for the Fighter being a crap design, not when you need those extra feats to fill out chains.

Mutational Suppression was made optional because, while it may seem necessary, it's one of those abilities I could see people wanting at different levels. Some people will want it at level 1, so that they can blend in before going all monster. Others will want to delay it, because their character isn't at that level of controlling their form yet. And some people will just want to tell all the NPCs who have a problem with it to go jump in a lake.

Maaaaybe... but it's still going to be necessary in most groups, probably sooner rather than later. Putting a vital ability as part of a big list of supposedly-equal options is just cruel. It's like a feat tax.

[Vhaidara]

Hmm, I missed the limited duration. Still, we again run into the redundant class features business-- you've got two sets of abilities that both represent rapidly changing your mutations. They have their own niche, sure, but it looks and feels sloppy. I suggest merging them-- the handful of points from Mutation Surge is plenty to pick up plenty of versatility. Look at how many seriously nice utility evolutions you can grab for a point or two-- movement modes, scent, a hefty skill bonus, flight, water breathing, tremorsense... the combination of Mutation Surge/utility evolution seems to do a pretty good job keeping pace with what's level-appropriate. (Climb speed or skill boosts at 1st, concealment or tremorsense at 4th, burrow or see invisibilityat 8th, lifesense or dimension door at 12th...) To have it last long enough to be useful, have Metamorphosis be a special version of Mutation Surge, where you take a few minutes to activate the ability, but each round of duration instead counts as 10 minutes.

That sounds like a good plan. Again, it mostly started as table padding

I like it. You should maybe also have a version where you stay the same size but get some other bonus (and "Mutant Will" later on)

Got any ideas? I've been trying to actually think of one.

That's the Fighter's problem. Don't make other classes suffer for the Fighter being a crap design, not when you need those extra feats to fill out chains.

Well, I want to actually maybe get to use this, and a lot of people freak out if you make something stronger than the Fighter and can't deny that it's stronger than a fighter. Also, Fighter is already a passable dip, and I didn't want this to replace Fighter as a dip class (bonus feats AND evolutions? That gets scary)

Maaaaybe... but it's still going to be necessary in most groups, probably sooner rather than later. Putting a vital ability as part of a big list of supposedly-equal options is just cruel. It's like a feat tax.

Part of my view on that was how many Mutations you were getting. Most builds could afford to drop one of the 20 that they got onto it, and I tried not to make them essential for a build coming online.

[Grod_The_Giant]

[QUOTE=Keledrath;18788520]Got any ideas? I've been trying to actually think of one.[QUOTE]
Umm... we've got small size (stealth), large size (combat)... maybe socialization? Maybe that's the version that gives you Disguise Self, and the other paths need to pick it up as a new custom evolution/buy a hat of disguise?

Well, I want to actually maybe get to use this, and a lot of people freak out if you make something stronger than the Fighter and can't deny that it's stronger than a fighter. Also, Fighter is already a passable dip, and I didn't want this to replace Fighter as a dip class (bonus feats AND evolutions? That gets scary)

It's already a heck of a dip-- you can get flight, skill boosts, ability boosts, all kinds of natural weapons and special senses... but fair. Bonus feats every 3-4 levels is probably fine.

[Vhaidara]

Can't actually get flight with a dip. That requires effective summoner level 5. That's why I included Evolution Affinity: Mutant inherits the Eidolon's Evolution gates.

[IZ42]

How bout for the mind one it looks something like this.

Indomitable Psyche(as the Agile/Powerful counterpart): You count as mindless You are immune to mind-affecting spells and SLAs(unless you wish to be affected by them) such as Dominate Person, Charm, etc. if the Caster is of a lower CL than your Mutant level(or character level), and Casters of an equal or Higher CL must succeed on a DC <enter number here> will save to affect you with such spells or SLAs.

[Almarck]

Fun. I like the idea, but I feel Metamorphosis or some method to completely change your build needs to exist. There's also no need to be a caster, which is often a dealbreaker for summoners. Thematically bland, but that's not a bad thing and the name fits in with the idea of "evolution".

Not really sure how to rate this, but it's certainly flexibile.
Maybe it should get a d12 hit dice?

The only other complaint I have is one I have in regards to 3.P and normal Eidelions: no natural ranged weapons. And Eidelions get no access to disposable ranged weapons breath attacks from what I can tell. Again, those are more a fault of the summoner lacking options.

[IZ42]

Actually, there is a Breath Weapon evolution that is worth 4 EP.


EDIT: I would also have mutations occur once at 1st level, once at 2nd level, and once every 2 levels after. (EX: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20) and make the final mutation a special one, like Grand Hex/Discovery/Etc.

[Vhaidara]

I won't be at a computer long enough until tomorrow afternoon, but an overhaul is coming to the whole system, including an Akashic style path choice.

[Vhaidara]

Going to answer this before I do my rewrite

Fun. I like the idea, but I feel Metamorphosis or some method to completely change your build needs to exist. There's also no need to be a caster, which is often a dealbreaker for summoners. Thematically bland, but that's not a bad thing and the name fits in with the idea of "evolution".

I generally try to make things fluff neutral, since I feel fluff is the job of the player. For example, you could combine this with my Forgeborn template (basically PF Warforged) and make a character who modifies his own mechanical body.

Not really sure how to rate this, but it's certainly flexibile.
Maybe it should get a d12 hit dice?

It is meant to be flexible, and it is not getting a d12. It's based off of the eidolon, and inherited the d10 HD from there

The only other complaint I have is one I have in regards to 3.P and normal Eidelions: no natural ranged weapons. And Eidelions get no access to disposable ranged weapons breath attacks from what I can tell.

I think I might crib in an evolution based on the Manticore Belt from 3.5.

Again, those are more a fault of the summoner lacking options.

Wat

[Almarck]

Lacking the optiob to give it's eidelions the power to shoot spines at a distance specifically. It's less lacking overall options but lacking very specific options

[IZ42]

Yeah, the fact that the eidolon has limited ranged capability annoys me. There should be an evolution like this:

The eidolon grows spines that it can launch at enemies. These spines deal 1d6(not sure if there should be a damage modifier) of medium or 1d8 if large and have a range of 60 ft. Applying reach to the spines evolution adds 20 feet to the range (or maybe gives the Eidolon far shot for the purposes of firing spines). An eidolon can fire 1d4 spines per round, and may fire X more spines each time he takes this evolution. Rapid Shot and Manyshot to not affect spines, but Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot work as normal.

[Vhaidara]

Alright, the class itself is now updated into a Google Doc (better tables). I'm going to work on the ranged attack after dinner, but it will likely be associated with Nimble Mutants.

[IZ42]

Why should it have to be. The tarrasque is definitely not the most Nimble of creatures, yet it has spines.

[Almarck]

I think Dexterity for aiming is okay, but strength could be added to the damage, like a Composite bow

[Vhaidara]

Why should it have to be. The tarrasque is definitely not the most Nimble of creatures, yet it has spines.

I was unaware that PF had added them. And I don't think you understand how associated evolutions work. Each Path (Nimble, Growth, Internal) has associated evolutions. You must spend at least one EP per level on associated evolutions.

[MorgromTheOrc]

This is perfect, the other similar homebrew class is really nice too but quite a bit different from what I wanted. This matches exactly what I've wanted for so long. One thing I liked about the other class though is double class level as summoner level, because though it makes sense for the summoner's eidolon not to get abilities reminiscent of a character their level, this is your character. Though maybe 1.5 times if that's still too powerful given the versatility.

And if you're looking for something to fill the gap but don't want to go with bonus feats maybe you could have a plus 1-2 increase of the related ability score to the build type you choose(fort, ref, or will) every 3-5 levels depending on how you space it for power? And I'm trying not to be so critical on your decisions here but I actually like the mutation thing and maybe if you plan on keeping it give the option to use a mutation point as an evolution point unless you plan on expanding the table?(or 2 evolution points since you said mutation was supposed to be more powerful) But if you do decide to scrap mutations a general boost to evolution points combined with or instead just the above points made by me and/or others could round this off really well. I don't mind the metamorphosis as you have it personally but maybe either less time to do it or overnight as was mentioned.

Ending statement: Again I'm sorry if I was to critical I do really love it and really hope it gets finished to the level that it can be at least somewhat commonly excepted at most gaming tables.
Edit: You updated it as I was typing my post lol. I love the changes though I hope at least some of what I said is still relevant.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, the rewrite was moderately extensive, but I feel the class is stronger for it. I took a leaf out of the pages of DSP's Akashic Mysteries by giving three paths that you can choose to determine you primary role/abilities. I'm thinking I might give them Path based abilities as well

Nimble is dominantly a skill monkey, but also fills the role of an assassin with their mobility. This is Mystique. I'm thinking about giving them a half-progression Sneak Attack.

Growth is meant to be a Wolverine. I'm considering giving them Weapon Training with natural attacks

Internal is meant to be the mystic caster style mutant. Think Professor X or Magneto. I'm thinking something psionic here. Maybe some limited manifest (Awakened Blade style)?

[MorgromTheOrc]

Yeah, the rewrite was moderately extensive, but I feel the class is stronger for it. I took a leaf out of the pages of DSP's Akashic Mysteries by giving three paths that you can choose to determine you primary role/abilities. I'm thinking I might give them Path based abilities as well

Nimble is dominantly a skill monkey, but also fills the role of an assassin with their mobility. This is Mystique. I'm thinking about giving them a half-progression Sneak Attack.

Growth is meant to be a Wolverine. I'm considering giving them Weapon Training with natural attacks

Internal is meant to be the mystic caster style mutant. Think Professor X or Magneto. I'm thinking something psionic here. Maybe some limited manifest (Awakened Blade style)?

Maybe you could just add cheaper manifesting equivalents of the spell evolutions that are only available or at least cheaper for the internal types? And then possibly add in a evolution to get a small number of power points for special ability evolutions or giving them psionic focus?

[IZ42]

Didn't see the Doc when I posted that, Oops. But looks alright to me. Tempted to playtest this, I think I have a character sheet that's actually for this class.


One problem though: to get any sort of damage output off of spines, you have to spend A lot of
EP to pick up more. Also, Did you consider my idea for the reach evolution applied to spines?