Community Based Monster Classes VI

[The Winter King]

Okay some big changes made
Jovoc
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=425

I want to make some changes to my spellweaver(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=196) as I feel it might be out of date with the current feeling of the project, any suggestions

[Hyudra]

Winter King, please don't repost your monsters. It is much preferred that you link back to the original post, as things get confusing if you just repost it, while there's links & stuff (such as in the posts at the start of the thread) to what then becomes outdated material. We've had much confusion in the past, because of this.

Further, it's messy, as your monster images increase page load times. Imagine the clutter if everyone was doing it.

[The Winter King]

Sorry. Wont happen again boss.

[Gorgondantess]

Sorry. Wont happen again boss.

Probably best to just edit what you have there into your original monster post and then replace the whole shebang with a link.
Also:

Jovoc:
No maneuvers on non-initiating classes! It's like giving caster levels to a class that doesn't have them. It's also like laziness. Give actual class abilities as opposed to premade ones. ToB already has excellent multiclassing options, and those that want maneuvers can get some superb always useful maneuvers with a 1 level dip, or can just play a class that already uses maneuvers (i.e. reth dekala/valkyrie).
Also, no using homebrew. Just as a rule. That's for the other thread.
Retributive Aura is again quite abusable. I can imagine a Jovoc grabbing leadership & a cohort who is capable of dealing 1 damage dozens of times per round and using that to attack him & annihilate his enemies.

Basilisk:
Hmmm. Stone eye is looking much, much better.
Tail Smash... again, I can't see anyone using it too much. It's just not very effective- something like, eh, 12 damage per round, as a full round action provoking AoOs? Essentially only useful for bashing apart petrified enemies, and even then not much. Why not reduce the damage a little, and say it pierces hardness? It just seems like a little nicer way of putting things. But I'll not make a big deal about it.
I'm loving Geomorphic Gaze. It's seeming less like a battle option and more of a battle preparation option- a bunch of cool little utility abilities... and then finally a few actually decent battle abilities. It's not very powerful, but it's fun and versatile, and that's all that matters.
I'd still like an abyssal greater basilisk. I mean, really, why not? People are going to want it, it would add another cool variety, and it would require next to no effort.
Torpid Nature is quite powerful, essentially making it immune to 1-round save or sucks.
Granite Gaze is quite powerful. Dazing would be more balanced.
Lithic Stare... probably best for a full-round action to break free. Or something like that. State it, anyways. It's a little less powerful, eh.

[The Winter King]

Okay I believe I have fixed the jovoc good this time. I am sorry if I seemed lazy or condescending. The jovoc can now no longer exclude the creature dealing the damage and has an actual class feature at level four. Link is in my above post.

How about the spell weaver? It is one of my favorite creatures but I dont think I did it justice.

[Benly]

What first strikes me about Pseudonatural Creature as written is that you can take it at first or second level depending on how you interpret order of operations in character creation (human with Aberration Blood and Willing Deformity: Madness, with Aberration Blood representing Far Realm ancestry.) This makes for an extremely powerful character for the first several levels at least, probably excessively so for the first few, since the class seems to be balanced around taking it at sixth level or so.

[Gorgondantess]

Locathah

Spoiler

Show

HD: D10
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 0|+2|+2|+2 |Fishman Body, Spear Warrior, Watersense, +1 Dex, +1 Wis
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Craft (any), Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim.

Proficiencies: The Locathah is proficient in simple weapons, all non-exotic polearms and light armor.

Fishman Body: The Locathah loses all other racial bonuses and gains humanoid traits with the aquatic subtype, a land speed of 20 feet, a swim speed of 40 feet (+10 feet at 3 HD and every 3 HD thereafter) and natural armor equal to its constitution modifier.

Spear Warrior: Most Locathah are quite adept with spears of all sorts, being one of the few effective underwater hunting weapons. When wielding a spear, or any other polearm the Locathah is proficient with that only deals piercing damage, the Locathah may choose to add its wisdom bonus to attacks & damage.
Finally, when attacking as a part of a standard action (or otherwise making a single attack), the Locathah may choose to either increase the reach of its polearm by 5 feet or decrease the reach by 5 feet. At 8 HD, this reach increases to up to 10 feet, and at 16 HD it increases to 15 feet.

Watersense: The Locathah gains tremorsense out to 10', but only against creatures within the same body of water as the Locathah, be it a puddle or an ocean. This increases by 5' at 4 HD and every 4 HD thereafter.

Ability score increases: The Locathah gains a +1 bonus to dexterity and wisdom at 1st level.

Comments:

Spoiler

Show

Why not?

[Gorgondantess]

What first strikes me about Pseudonatural Creature as written is that you can take it at first or second level depending on how you interpret order of operations in character creation (human with Aberration Blood and Willing Deformity: Madness, with Aberration Blood representing Far Realm ancestry.) This makes for an extremely powerful character for the first several levels at least, probably excessively so for the first few, since the class seems to be balanced around taking it at sixth level or so.

Bad oversight. Fixed.

[Benly]

Bad oversight. Fixed.

Aw, and here I was half looking forward to trying to sell my DM on letting me play one.

What is "5th level spellcasting in any caster class"? As far as I know the correct terms for normal class-prerequisite writing would be "caster level 5 in any spellcasting class", "ability to cast fifth-level spells", or "five levels in any spellcasting class" depending on which one of those you mean. As it is, you could mean any of those. Is this a difference of terminology in this thread? (Sorry, I only pay attention to the monster class threads intermittently.)

[Gorgondantess]

Aw, and here I was half looking forward to trying to sell my DM on letting me play one.

What is "5th level spellcasting in any caster class"? As far as I know the correct terms for normal class-prerequisite writing would be "caster level 5 in any spellcasting class", "ability to cast fifth-level spells", or "five levels in any spellcasting class" depending on which one of those you mean. As it is, you could mean any of those. Is this a difference of terminology in this thread? (Sorry, I only pay attention to the monster class threads intermittently.)

Edited, yo.

[Benly]

Edited, yo.

Actually, even though I suggested that wording it only now occurs to me: can a class with caster level but no spells (invocation classes or artificers) qualify?

I'm reasonably certain there's still some way to qualify for this class by level 3 or 4 regardless, just trying to hammer out all possible issues.

[Tacitus]

Requiring CL 5, Monster Class Levels of 5, or Knowledge ranks of 9 means that 5 is indeed the earliest you can get in. You choose one of those prerequisites and then two from the second list. One of easiest (though not earliest) I can think of off the top of my head is probably Marrutact 5/Wizard 1. CL 5, Monster Levels of 5, and +3 base will. Its also incredibly amusing. XD I might have to try it now...

[Hyudra]

Pseudonatural Creature

• Please don't use color in creature names/monster titles/ability names/ability text. You used purple for 'Pseudonatural Creature' and it bugs me.
• Prerequisites:
  
  • Let it be said, I'm picky on prereqs.
  • They're a little boring. I see prerequisites as the first dose of flavor you & your gaming group gets at the table, for the particular prestige monster class.
  • They're also a little too easy, which makes Pseudonatural creatures more common and mundane as a result, which is a shame as it stands to be an interesting characterization element.
  • I think the 'descendant of a creature of the far realms' is a bit too easy to enter.
  • I see a Griffon with 5HD, a line of dialogue in the griffon's backstory and a base will save of +3 suddenly becoming this bizarre, outlandish creature. Doesn't compute, really.
  • The list could use some nicer formatting, as it looks kinda ugly as is, no offense. I've picked on others for the allcaps OR, before, and you could italicize or bold (the latter of which is my preference) 'Prerequisites' to make it stand out.
• All good saves is a tad much.
• Class Skills:
  
  • Minor format nitpick - you've got Class Skills and 'skill points at each level' standing out in bold with increased size and whatnot, but for the rest of the creature entry, you're using italics to make stuff stand out (which isn't as nice looking IMHO).
  • Sleight of Hand seems out of place on the list.
• I fear, going into this, seeing the picture, noting Sleight of Hand, that we have different ideas of what constitutes a Pseudonatural creature, though. I'm envisioning the creatures the Alienist has at her disposal, the Griffon that looks like it's melting, and the small handful of pseudonatural creatures detailed in Dungeon magazine.
• Far Realms Touched:
  
  • What if it already had aberration type?
• Warp:
  
  • Warp is perhaps a bit too much like Eldritch Blast for my liking.
• Invocations:
  
  • You refer to warlocks channeling the power of hell. Not sure I like this as, IIRC, only hellfire warlocks explicitly channel such. Other warlocks, by fluff, may be channeling any supernatural elements, be it Faerie, Vestige or Infernal.
  • Paralleling the Warlock perhaps a bit too much, here. While I haven't studied the invocations themselves, it's hard to get truly excited about the class having read thus far, feeling like I'm retreading old ground.
• Lesser Alternate Form:
  
  • This is more like it.
  • Enemies take a -1 morale penalty to attacks against the Pseudo for every point of its charisma modifier: I take it this is a mental or fear based effect? Should be stressed.
  • Tentacles are good fun, but do you lose your normal attacks? I fear we could see Dragons with 2 claw, bite, 2 wing, tail and 6 tentacle attacks.
  • Are the tentacle attacks natural attacks? Primary or secondary?
  • Can it change back to a regular form? Worth stating.
• Warp Augmentation:
  
  • I'd replace any & all mentions of Eldritch with something else, if you're attempting to disassociate from the Warlock. Aberrant?
  • Wording under Reality Tearing Warp is kinda awkward. I stress, via. bold: "Reality Tearing Warp: The Pseudonatural Creature may make enemies struck by Warp to make a will save or be shaken for the rest of the encounter, or make a fortitude save or be sickened for 3 rounds, or make a reflex save or have their movement speed halved for 3 rounds."
  • Ditto for Greater Reality Tearing Warp.
  • And Eldritch Reality Tearing Warp.
  • Eldritch Reality Tearing Warp - the prone version is far, far better than the alternatives, as you're targeting a typically weak save (at the levels you're getting this & thereafter)
  • I really dislike knock prone as an easily applied condition. It's rather potent as far as action economy goes, and in this scenario, you're getting it via. a not too difficult touch attack (most touch ACs are abysmal) and reflex save (Reflex is typically the weakest save enemies will have). For your trouble, you can consistently keep enemies from approaching you, while doing decent damage. You can get the knock prone condition as early as 12th level, and effectively lock enemies down with minimal effort or risk. Would you, as a tier 2-3 character, be able to deal if I pit you against a Pseudonatural creature using this from 45' away?
• Greater Alternate Form:
  
  • Dunno if i like the improved grab coupled with a potential six tentacles & whatever you're packing from your base form. Say I'm a level 20 gibbering mouther. 6 tentacles & my natural grabs... nothing's going to escape being pulled into my toothy little ooze self, short of a freedom of movement.
• Channeling:
  
  • "This effect cannot be ended voluntarily- it will run its course, and the Pseudonatural Creature will suffer the backlash." - I find this doesn't read like proper ability description. Reword? "This ability burn cannot be prevented in any way, and no ability or condition imposed by the Pseudonatural Creature or her allies can end the effect early."
• Far Realms Apotheosis:
  
  • "whichever one is more beneficial at the type," - you mean time.
  • "Finally, at 20 HD, the Pseudonatural Creature gains an additional +1d6 to warp damage." seems out of place.
• Least Invocations:
  
  • Could use some formatting to make it less 'mini walls of plain textish'.
  • Also needs explanations for what the individual entries are. Duration: 1d4 rounds is superior to a random '1d4 rounds' in the middle of the invocation entry.
  • Implexsion:
    
    • "in the remaining pieces an amount of diamond dust of value equal to one half the original obect's gp can be collected." - wording is awkward.
    • Can I not just use this against a cursed item over & over until it fails the save & goes away, sparing my party the hassle?
    • I foresee shenanigans as far as players finding ways to collect obscene amounts of gold, somehow.
  • Dread Curse of A*******:
    
    • Don't like the name.
    • Seems a bit clumsy for use alongside one's party members.
  • Many voiced:
    
    • Bonuses from abilities should be even, as a general rule. +7 is obscure and awkward as numbers go.
  • Some Things Man was Not Meant to Know:
    
    • Kinda boring, potentially problematic with knowledge devotion.
  • Overall, something of a lack of combat-usable invocations, here.
• Lesser Invocations:
  
  • Twitch:
    
    • You're giving a plethora of 24 hour bonuses, which I'm not sure I like. This redoubles on my general stance against too many passive abilities.
    • I do like that you can discharge it & lose the effect, but I shy away from messing with the action economy overmuch. For a caster, this is another spell at the outset of combat with the fatigued penalty not being overly problematic.
    • The numbers are a tad high, as I see it. Could stand to be toned down.
    • The fatigue is kind of weird alongside the 10' bonus movement. You have 30' speed, are fatigued and get +10' bonus move... does that leave you with 25' or 20' movement?
    • Rereading it, I don't like that you can gain a standard action at any time, as a free action.
    • The "10 movement" should be "10' movement".
  • Realigned Gravity:
    
    • Pretty interesting.
  • Summon Lesser Warp Elemental:
    
    • Where's the warp elemental class?
    • "with levels equal to 3/4 her HD." - a bit awkward. Levels are generally reserved for PC classes. HD?
    • "The Pseudonatural Creature instantly loses Xd6 hp, where X is the Warp Elemental's HD, and xp equal to 1000 times its HD. She may then re-summon it as normal." - needs rewording. Algebra is generally discouraged in ability entries. Perhaps: "The Pseudonatural creature loses 1d6 hp and 1000 xp for every HD it has."
  • Shadowy Tentacles:
    
    • "The Pseudonatural Creature infuses the shadows in a 20 foot radius spread with Far Realms stuff-" - stuff seems out of place. "with the energies of the Far Realms", perhaps?
  • "Improved Dread Curse of A*******:
    
    • Should state it requires Dread Curse of A.
    • Who or what is this Dread Prince? Needs background fluff if you're going to stick fluff in there.
    • A touch underwhelming.
• Greater Invocations:
  
  • Ego Explosion:
    
    • Makes me think of Psionics, from the name.
    • You could rename it "Way for a level 11 PC to screw up epic level deities", if you wished.
    • If my previous point wasn't clear - there's some balance issues here with the potential vs. high CR targets.
  • Y'Nachtal's Wail:
    
    • Hazardous to fellow party members.
    • A tad too powerful considering you can fire it off every round, you're covering pretty much half the battlefield, dealing damage and taking enemies out of combat.
  • Summon Greater Warp Elemental:
    
    • Where are stats for greater warp elemental?
  • Flash Implexion:
    
    • Dunno if I like the immediate action item destruction. Consider that, by some readings (Say, the people who do PvP in D&D) you'd be able to do an immediate action Impexion vs. the weapon an enemy is currently swinging at you, destroying it before the attack is successfully resolved.
  • Eldritch Tentacles:
    
    • See previous points for my complaints over use of word eldritch.
    • So at 11th level you've potentially got an area of effect 'save or be erased from reality'. Perhaps a tad much?
• Eldritch Invocations:
  
  • Subjective Reality:
    
    • Um. Again, perhaps a bit much. Consider that you can pump your will save relatively easily, while you're targeting enemies in a way they've got no way to defend against. Where I can add only a +1 to the DC of a monster ability with a feat, I can add +2 to the 'attack' save with Iron Will, while simultaneously gaining a concrete benefit.
    • You're also adding a boatload of versatility to the class, by way of adding two complete schools of arcane magic to the repertoire. And you can use these all day, every day. Greater Mage armor? You got it. Summon monster (whatever), you got it.
  • Portal Rend:
    
    • Theoretically speaking, what happens if I, as a Pseudonatural creature, create a vortex, then on my following turn, set down another just outside the radius, so they overlap?
    • You're adding yet another 'save or be obliterated beyond recovery' to the Pseudonatural Creature, with sizeable bonuses. There's nothing enemies can do to stop you from setting one down right on top of them, and once that happens, they're effectively immobilized - they have to make strength checks to be able to move 5', while you and the rest of your party can blast them, safely out of range.
  • Summon True Warp Elemental:
    
    • Stats?
    • "cannot be pierced by anything short of the gods." - elaborate/clarify?
  • True Dread Curse of A*******:
    
    • Eh. Another save or lose, with a dash of 'character is ruined forever'.
• Overall... concerns that it's too powerful at several points in the advancement. How would you feel as a standard Tier 2 or 3 PC (Beguiler, Swordsage, etc), if I was setting you against a Pseudonatural Creature BBEG, that was setting down vortexes or pitting you against 'save or reroll a new character' effects?
• More than that, to be brutally honest, I feel you've diverged considerably from the fluff and flavor of the Pseudonatural creature as it is described in the official material. That isn't to say you've done a bad job, but nonetheless, I can't take the official material and swap it out for your stuff without a serious shift of tone and flavor. For example, if I'm a PC Alienist who's summoning Pseudonatural things, I'm no longer summoning twisted flesh beasts with tentacles and maddening images... I'm summoning warlocks with the ability to become flesh beasts.
• Which leads me to my final statement: I don't think it's fitting as a Pseudonatural creature... but I do think that with some minor alterations and an overhaul in terms of balance, it would make a great Alienist base class.

[Benly]

Requiring CL 5, Monster Class Levels of 5, or Knowledge ranks of 9 means that 5 is indeed the earliest you can get in. You choose one of those prerequisites and then two from the second list. One of easiest (though not earliest) I can think of off the top of my head is probably Marrutact 5/Wizard 1. CL 5, Monster Levels of 5, and +3 base will. Its also incredibly amusing. XD I might have to try it now...

The easiest entry is any race, five levels of any spellcasting class with K: Dungeoneering on its list (wizard is the easiest), and character backstory of being descended from a Whately. You don't even need to spend a feat that way. Marrutact business is sort of excessively complicating matters.

However, that's the easiest entry, not the earliest. The thing is, there are a lot of ways to boost your caster level with varying levels of cheese and nitpickiness, and you can get your CL above your ECL in a variety of ways (although most of them are hard to pull off early enough to make this worth it). Normally that wouldn't be a problem, except that this is a catch-up class - it's designed to give you level-appropriate abilities no matter what you came in with, so if there are ways to get into it early, they will give you level-inappropriate abilities.

Edit: While I'm at it, why 9 ranks for Knowledge? That puts its entry at level 7 while the other routes enter at level 6. It just seems weird.

[Gorgondantess]

[*]Please don't use color in creature names/monster titles/ability names/ability text. You used purple for 'Pseudonatural Creature' and it bugs me.

Can chance.

[*]Let it be said, I'm picky on prereqs.[*]They're a little boring. I see prerequisites as the first dose of flavor you & your gaming group gets at the table, for the particular prestige monster class.

I prefer to keep flavor and mechanics at opposite- and equally important- ends of the table, with only a little meshing. I hate it when my rules lawyer DM doesn't let me take cool PrC X because I don't have the warhammer of gillhalloo because it doesn't exist in his campaign world.

[*]They're also a little too easy, which makes Pseudonatural creatures more common and mundane as a result, which is a shame as it stands to be an interesting characterization element.

True. Sortof. It's a lot to tackle, though.

[*]I think the 'descendant of a creature of the far realms' is a bit too easy to enter.

Meh, alright.

[*]I see a Griffon with 5HD, a line of dialogue in the griffon's backstory and a base will save of +3 suddenly becoming this bizarre, outlandish creature. Doesn't compute, really.

Why not? The player can make it compute. That's kindof the point I was making above- there's often good reasons for taking PrC X, but sometimes it just doesn't fit your mechanics and thus you're losing a cool character concept.

[*]All good saves is a tad much.

Probably.

[*]Sleight of Hand seems out of place on the list.

Sleight of hand can used for disguising spellcasting. I thought it might be appropriate.

[*]I fear, going into this, seeing the picture, noting Sleight of Hand, that we have different ideas of what constitutes a Pseudonatural creature, though. I'm envisioning the creatures the Alienist has at her disposal, the Griffon that looks like it's melting, and the small handful of pseudonatural creatures detailed in Dungeon magazine.

I'm envisioning either the alienist OR (yeah, allcaps or, take that) the creature she has at her disposal. Remember that the alienist, at 10th level, becomes a pseudonatural creature. The alternate form allows for either/or, really. You can be a mass of tentacles, or your aberrant taint can be kept... more internal.

[*]What if it already had aberration type?

...Then it becomes an aberration, changing nothing?

[*]Warp is perhaps a bit too much like Eldritch Blast for my liking.

Eldritch Blast is a little too much like warp for my liking.
Seriously, though. I came up with warp irrelevant to eldritch blast, and they just kindof ended up the same.[*]Invocations:

[*]You refer to warlocks channeling the power of hell. Not sure I like this as, IIRC, only hellfire warlocks explicitly channel such. Other warlocks, by fluff, may be channeling any supernatural elements, be it Faerie, Vestige or Infernal.

Fine, fine, I can change it.

[*]Paralleling the Warlock perhaps a bit too much, here. While I haven't studied the invocations themselves, it's hard to get truly excited about the class having read thus far, feeling like I'm retreading old ground.

Well, this isn't a book I'm trying to sell here. I want to make a good class, not have people want to buy it after reading the 1st page.[*]Lesser Alternate Form:

[*]This is more like it.[*]Enemies take a -1 morale penalty to attacks against the Pseudo for every point of its charisma modifier: I take it this is a mental or fear based effect? Should be stressed.[*]Tentacles are good fun, but do you lose your normal attacks? I fear we could see Dragons with 2 claw, bite, 2 wing, tail and 6 tentacle attacks.[*]Are the tentacle attacks natural attacks? Primary or secondary?[*]Can it change back to a regular form? Worth stating.

Honestly, I pretty much just copied it exact from the actual PC. But all valid points.

[*]I'd replace any & all mentions of Eldritch with something else, if you're attempting to disassociate from the Warlock. Aberrant?

Again: warlock is too much like pseudonatural creature, not the other way around. Eldritch doesn't mean "hellspawn", it means ancient and mysterious and evil.

[*]Wording under Reality Tearing Warp is kinda awkward. I stress, via. bold: "Reality Tearing Warp: The Pseudonatural Creature may make enemies struck by Warp to make a will save or be shaken for the rest of the encounter, or make a fortitude save or be sickened for 3 rounds, or make a reflex save or have their movement speed halved for 3 rounds."[*]Ditto for Greater Reality Tearing Warp.[*]And Eldritch Reality Tearing Warp.

Can change.

[*]Eldritch Reality Tearing Warp - the prone version is far, far better than the alternatives, as you're targeting a typically weak save (at the levels you're getting this & thereafter)

...But the alternatives do far, far more!

[*]I really dislike knock prone as an easily applied condition. It's rather potent as far as action economy goes, and in this scenario, you're getting it via. a not too difficult touch attack (most touch ACs are abysmal) and reflex save (Reflex is typically the weakest save enemies will have). For your trouble, you can consistently keep enemies from approaching you, while doing decent damage. You can get the knock prone condition as early as 12th level, and effectively lock enemies down with minimal effort or risk. Would you, as a tier 2-3 character, be able to deal if I pit you against a Pseudonatural creature using this from 45' away?

Eh, I donno. I'll point you to the greater thunderclap spell, which has "reflex save or knocked prone" Or, better yet, might I point you to grease? It doesn't require a RTA, and can affect multiple creatures.

Dunno if i like the improved grab coupled with a potential six tentacles & whatever you're packing from your base form. Say I'm a level 20 gibbering mouther. 6 tentacles & my natural grabs... nothing's going to escape being pulled into my toothy little ooze self, short of a freedom of movement.

Hmmm... possibly. I'll consider changing that.[*]Channeling:

[*]"This effect cannot be ended voluntarily- it will run its course, and the Pseudonatural Creature will suffer the backlash." - I find this doesn't read like proper ability description. Reword? "This ability burn cannot be prevented in any way, and no ability or condition imposed by the Pseudonatural Creature or her allies can end the effect early."

'Kay.

[*]Far Realms Apotheosis:
"whichever one is more beneficial at the type," - you mean time.[*]"Finally, at 20 HD, the Pseudonatural Creature gains an additional +1d6 to warp damage." seems out of place.

Just trying to pad out the warp damage.

[*]Least Invocations:
[list][*]Could use some formatting to make it less 'mini walls of plain textish'.

But I don't like formatting... I'm bad at it.

[*]Also needs explanations for what the individual entries are. Duration: 1d4 rounds is superior to a random '1d4 rounds' in the middle of the invocation entry.

'Kay.

[*]Implexsion:[*]"in the remaining pieces an amount of diamond dust of value equal to one half the original obect's gp can be collected." - wording is awkward.[*]Can I not just use this against a cursed item over & over until it fails the save & goes away, sparing my party the hassle?

Sure, why not? You can also just have the 3rd level warblade hireling use mountain hammer strike on it over and over until it breaks.

[*]I foresee shenanigans as far as players finding ways to collect obscene amounts of gold, somehow.

True... I just wanted it to be usable, so people wouldn't be like "No! Don't destroy the BBEG's enchanted sword! That thing has at least a +4 enchantment on it!

[*]Dread Curse of A*******:[*]Don't like the name.[*]Seems a bit clumsy for use alongside one's party members.

Ripped it straight from the CoC RPG. The name stays.

[*]Many voiced:[*]Bonuses from abilities should be even, as a general rule. +7 is obscure and awkward as numbers go.

Why?

[*]Some Things Man was Not Meant to Know:
[[*]Kinda boring, potentially problematic with knowledge devotion.[*]Overall, something of a lack of combat-usable invocations, here.

Maybe...

[*]Lesser Invocations:
[[*]Twitch:[*]You're giving a plethora of 24 hour bonuses, which I'm not sure I like. This redoubles on my general stance against too many passive abilities.

Well... why not? They're mostly minor.

[*]I do like that you can discharge it & lose the effect, but I shy away from messing with the action economy overmuch. For a caster, this is another spell at the outset of combat with the fatigued penalty not being overly problematic.[*]The numbers are a tad high, as I see it. Could stand to be toned down.[*]The fatigue is kind of weird alongside the 10' bonus movement. You have 30' speed, are fatigued and get +10' bonus move... does that leave you with 25' or 20' movement?[*]Rereading it, I don't like that you can gain a standard action at any time, as a free action.[*]The "10 movement" should be "10' movement".

Fatigued doesn't reduce speed. Also, I think you should reread it: to gain the extra standard action, you lose all of its benefits and become exhausted for 24 hours, not to use it again until it wears off. Pretty damaging.

[*]Summon Lesser Warp Elemental:[*]Where's the warp elemental class?[*]"with levels equal to 3/4 her HD." - a bit awkward. Levels are generally reserved for PC classes. HD?[*]"The Pseudonatural Creature instantly loses Xd6 hp, where X is the Warp Elemental's HD, and xp equal to 1000 times its HD. She may then re-summon it as normal." - needs rewording. Algebra is generally discouraged in ability entries. Perhaps: "The Pseudonatural creature loses 1d6 hp and 1000 xp for every HD it has."

Read the comments. Rewording, fine.

[*]"Improved Dread Curse of A*******:[*]Should state it requires Dread Curse of A.

It's an advancement invocation. Read the first few sentences in the spoiler.

[*]Who or what is this Dread Prince? Needs background fluff if you're going to stick fluff in there.

No, it doesn't. It's a far realms entity. Best not to talk too much about it, 'lest people start losing their heads.

[*]Greater Invocations:[*]Ego Explosion:[*]Makes me think of Psionics, from the name.[*]You could rename it "Way for a level 11 PC to screw up epic level deities", if you wished.[*]If my previous point wasn't clear - there's some balance issues here with the potential vs. high CR targets.

True. I'll consider that.

[*]Y'Nachtal's Wail:[*]Hazardous to fellow party members.[*]A tad too powerful considering you can fire it off every round, you're covering pretty much half the battlefield, dealing damage and taking enemies out of combat.

Right. Kinda made that one at the last minute.

[*]Flash Implexion:
[list][*]Dunno if I like the immediate action item destruction. Consider that, by some readings (Say, the people who do PvP in D&D) you'd be able to do an immediate action Impexion vs. the weapon an enemy is currently swinging at you, destroying it before the attack is successfully resolved.

That's the whole point. Magic items get saving throws, though, so it's cool.

[*]Eldritch Tentacles:[*]So at 11th level you've potentially got an area of effect 'save or be erased from reality'. Perhaps a tad much?

Ugh. Needs rewording.

[*]Eldritch Invocations:[*]Subjective Reality:[*]Um. Again, perhaps a bit much. Consider that you can pump your will save relatively easily, while you're targeting enemies in a way they've got no way to defend against. Where I can add only a +1 to the DC of a monster ability with a feat, I can add +2 to the 'attack' save with Iron Will, while simultaneously gaining a concrete benefit.[*]You're also adding a boatload of versatility to the class, by way of adding two complete schools of arcane magic to the repertoire. And you can use these all day, every day. Greater Mage armor? You got it. Summon monster (whatever), you got it.

Perhaps. I think I'll break it into 2 invocations.
And, yes, they do have a way to defend against it. Sortof. You're just switching around the saves and the DCs.
Anyways, I'll up the DC, though.

[*]Portal Rend:[*]Theoretically speaking, what happens if I, as a Pseudonatural creature, create a vortex, then on my following turn, set down another just outside the radius, so they overlap?[*]You're adding yet another 'save or be obliterated beyond recovery' to the Pseudonatural Creature, with sizeable bonuses. There's nothing enemies can do to stop you from setting one down right on top of them, and once that happens, they're effectively immobilized - they have to make strength checks to be able to move 5', while you and the rest of your party can blast them, safely out of range.

Whoops, forgot to state that only one can be in existence at a time.[*]Summon True Warp Elemental:

• Stats?
• "cannot be pierced by anything short of the gods." - elaborate/clarify?

[*]True Dread Curse of A*******:[*]Eh. Another save or lose, with a dash of 'character is ruined forever'.

"Character ruined forever"? You do realize that insanity is a condition? One that can easily be removed with a 6th level cleric spell?

Overall... concerns that it's too powerful at several points in the advancement. How would you feel as a standard Tier 2 or 3 PC (Beguiler, Swordsage, etc), if I was setting you against a Pseudonatural Creature BBEG, that was setting down vortexes or pitting you against 'save or reroll a new character' effects?

Heheh. Consider this: Subjective Reality & the vortex spell are gained when most other classes are gaining 9th level spells. This is a caster class. I'd peg it at tier 2 or 3. When it came to the Eldritch level invocations, I went more for "cool" than "balanced".

[*]More than that, to be brutally honest, I feel you've diverged considerably from the fluff and flavor of the Pseudonatural creature as it is described in the official material. That isn't to say you've done a bad job, but nonetheless, I can't take the official material and swap it out for your stuff without a serious shift of tone and flavor. For example, if I'm a PC Alienist who's summoning Pseudonatural things, I'm no longer summoning twisted flesh beasts with tentacles and maddening images... I'm summoning warlocks with the ability to become flesh beasts.

I was more going for "let's be Nyarlathotep lol" kinds of stuff. Rather than drawing inspiration from D&D, which made the Pseudonatural Creature just a glorified beatstick, I drew inspiration from Lovecraft. Pseudonatural Creatures don't maul you. That's just pathetic. They say a single word and render you bat**** insane, or they send you to a dark corner of the universe to spend the rest of your years.

[*]Which leads me to my final statement: I don't think it's fitting as a Pseudonatural creature... but I do think that with some minor alterations and an overhaul in terms of balance, it would make a great Alienist base class.

I'll say that I did make this with the philosophy of "put as much into it as possible, then start paring away to bring it back down to balanced".

[Mystic Muse]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=146


These have yet to be addressed. While I would like Hyudra to elaborate on some things, if anybody can make some critiques on Illurien, please do so. I want this thing finished.

[Hyudra]

Again: warlock is too much like pseudonatural creature, not the other way around. Eldritch doesn't mean "hellspawn", it means ancient and mysterious and evil.

Eldritch: Suggesting the operation of supernatural influences; "an eldritch screech"; "the three weird sisters"; "stumps...had uncanny shapes as of monstrous creatures"- John Galsworthy; "an unearthly light"; "he could hear the unearthly scream of some curlew piercing the din"- Henry Kingsley

The reason Eldritch refers to warlock abilities as much as it does is that it encompasses a broad variety of supernatural effects, be it astrological, faerie, infernal, far realm or simply a variant of arcane magic. In terms of linguistics and etymology, it's the same as saying 'supernatural ______." So using it to refer to Pseudonatural abilities is just a tad broad and unspecific when you could be more on target & unique. It also leads to confusion if and when you're multiclassing between Warlock and Pseudonatural Creature. I hold to the notion that abilities can and should be renamed for the sake of clarity and flavor.

Eh, I donno. I'll point you to the greater thunderclap spell, which has "reflex save or knocked prone" Or, better yet, might I point you to grease? It doesn't require a RTA, and can affect multiple creatures.

But if we're talking about spells, we're talking about limited uses per day, pretty much. A better parallel would be Trip, whcih can also be used all day, every day, and your prone condition, here, is easier, safer and more reliable to apply than trip.

Just trying to pad out the warp damage.

Aye, but it just feels out of place. It's a random line of text offering a benefit at a distant point in the character development, with nothing leading up to it or supporting it within the text. An orphaned bonus.

True... I just wanted it to be usable, so people wouldn't be like "No! Don't destroy the BBEG's enchanted sword! That thing has at least a +4 enchantment on it!

That's a good point and good line of thinking. Perhaps the benefit only extends to magical items that fail their save?

Why?

Because that's standardized class creation as outlined and stressed in official "How to create a class" and "How to create a monster" material.

Fatigued doesn't reduce speed. Also, I think you should reread it: to gain the extra standard action, you lose all of its benefits and become exhausted for 24 hours, not to use it again until it wears off. Pretty damaging.

My bad on the reduced speed, though that does make me raise a further eyebrow at the size, versatility and breadth of the bonuses. Did a ctrl-f to find 'fatigued' in the SRD and the first place it took me was the exhausted condition. Even so, getting extra actions tends to be broken or easily breakable, and like I said, I shy away from such.

In any event, you've got bonus init so you're liable to win initiative, and for that pivotal encounter of the day, you can open up with two standard actions. You're a caster, so the drawback isn't that bad, and forcing two save or lose effects on the enemy caster before they even get a turn is a considerable advantage. As a pseudo-caster yourself, the drawbacks of exhaustion are fairly minor - a -3 to AC and lowered reflex saves.

It's an advancement invocation. Read the first few sentences in the spoiler.

I know it's an advancement invocation, but it should be stated for clarity and neatness' sake anyways.

No, it doesn't. It's a far realms entity. Best not to talk too much about it, 'lest people start losing their heads.

Meh. Lots of orphaned flavor text makes for less suspension of disbelief and more mild annoyance on the part of the player/DM/class reviewers.

And, yes, they do have a way to defend against it. Sortof. You're just switching around the saves and the DCs.
Anyways, I'll up the DC, though.

Surely you mean you'll down the DC?

My main complaint, anyways, is that people will naturally take steps to raise their saves, but only certain characters will focus on emphasizing their mental attack stats. Items, spells and skills will also make it easier to raise your defensive measures than offensive. Go up against a Mature Adult Red Dragon at level 18 and you can (with a proper build and a few buffs) have a will save somewhere in the neighborhood of +33 (+11 base, +6 from core stats, +4 from cloak of resistance, +5 from periapt of Iron Will, +1 luckstone, +2 from Iron Will feat, +2 from Protection from Evil, +2 from Owl's Wisdom) trying to best a DC 26 effect. You'd erase the Red Dragon from existence, virtually guaranteed. Since you're not having to debuff the cloud giant, either, you can rinse and repeat for as long as the buffs last. And hey, why not make your entry class for Pseudonatural creature a cleric with luck domain? Should your huge will save fail you, you can always reroll it.

"Character ruined forever"? You do realize that insanity is a condition? One that can easily be removed with a 6th level cleric spell?

Not so. You stated Permanently. That's a big word that implies the effect can never be removed and lasts forever. But even without insanity, you can still ruin characters forever by erasing them from reality.

[Gorgondantess]

Not so. You stated Permanently. That's a big word that implies the effect can never be removed and lasts forever. But even without insanity, you can still ruin characters forever by erasing them from reality.

Not so. "Permanent", in D&D terms, means indefinite duration but can be removed. Permanencied spells are permanent, but they can still go away from a dispel magic, as are all other effects with a duration of "permanent".
Anyways, I'll get to the other points later. Just wanted to clarify that now.

[Mystic Muse]

Does anybody have any ideas for an 18th/19th level dragon of Hell? I know I shouldn't do too much at one time, but I felt like doing the hellfire wyrm. The only problem is, I can't think of any decent abilities for those levels. I could give it a few more SLAs, but it already gets 20 so I would think it would be covered by now.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Speaking of which: first five people to post and ask for a critique on their monsters that's more than a week old get my critique. I want to do some critiquing, but I don't want to waste time and energy on anything that's been abandoned.

I think I'm in time for this. The Gargoyle is (I think) very near finished, but hasn't gotten a green light yet, if you'd care to critique it.

[TheGeckoKing]

Speaking of which: first five people to post and ask for a critique on their monsters that's more than a week old get my critique. I want to do some critiquing, but I don't want to waste time and energy on anything that's been abandoned.

Firstly, Pseudonatural Creature looks a bit......strong. Were you aiming for Tier 2? It seems solidly in that ballpark. Also, Locathah looks fine, although I don't have the slightest clue where that monster is from.

Now, the bad news. If you would kindly, I've touched up Pandorym
No rush, mind you. Just wanted to ask if you'd have a look.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Also, Locathah looks fine, although I don't have the slightest clue where that monster is from.

Monster Manual, right before Lycanthrope.

[TheGeckoKing]

And that'll be why. I havn't opened up that book in ages. I just go look at the SRD for most of the older monsters.

[Crafty Cultist]

What's happened to my werewolf and werebear? They were in need of an over haul, but the werebear remake has been done here. I'll complete the werewolf rebuild soon.

Edit: I'd also like to endorse hyudra's troll rebuild

[Hyudra]

Just FYI, Crafty, we're not using the endorsement system anymore. Nothing was getting done with it. See the Critique Guidelines in the first post as to the new method.

That said, stuff isn't getting done under the new system, but that's largely because MagicYop disappeared on us.

Edit: If you're wanting to get caught up on that particular notion, the change happened on page 18 of the 5th thread.

[Lord_Gareth]

If you folks would like some dedicated space with which to work, there's space available on Plothook (which could use some 'brewers, frankly) and Competitor (just PM Fax or DragoonWraith for a dedicated sub-forum). Plothook also has the advantage of a built-in chat room.

That being said, I kinda suck at balancing 'brew, but a lot of this stuff looks great. Keep on keepin' on, ya'll.

[Frog Dragon]

Looking at my old yugoloths, I realized two things.
1. The Mezzoloth and the Nycaloth are 3.0, versions, and both were changed in a way that matters for 3.5
2. The Mezzo can't really hold a candle to the Nycaloth
Sooo... Nycaloth and Mezzoloth, overhauled. The mezzo had its SLA capability enhanced dramatically and squeezed into 6 levels, and the Nycaloth basically had its abilities squeezed into three less levels.

[Gorgondantess]

Firstly, Pseudonatural Creature looks a bit......strong. Were you aiming for Tier 2? It seems solidly in that ballpark.

The idea was to start high then bring it down. However, I am aiming for a "caster" monster- probably on par with a core-only psion. Which I suppose is technically tier 2, so woopee, I've done my job right.

Eldritch: Suggesting the operation of supernatural influences; "an eldritch screech"; "the three weird sisters"; "stumps...had uncanny shapes as of monstrous creatures"- John Galsworthy; "an unearthly light"; "he could hear the unearthly scream of some curlew piercing the din"- Henry Kingsley

The reason Eldritch refers to warlock abilities as much as it does is that it encompasses a broad variety of supernatural effects, be it astrological, faerie, infernal, far realm or simply a variant of arcane magic. In terms of linguistics and etymology, it's the same as saying 'supernatural ______." So using it to refer to Pseudonatural abilities is just a tad broad and unspecific when you could be more on target & unique. It also leads to confusion if and when you're multiclassing between Warlock and Pseudonatural Creature. I hold to the notion that abilities can and should be renamed for the sake of clarity and flavor.

Fine, fine. I suppose you're right.

But if we're talking about spells, we're talking about limited uses per day, pretty much. A better parallel would be Trip, whcih can also be used all day, every day, and your prone condition, here, is easier, safer and more reliable to apply than trip.

Ugh... please. The Warlock has proven that unlimited uses per day of something isn't broken. By the level you're getting it at, most combats are going to last 2-3 rounds anyways.

That's a good point and good line of thinking. Perhaps the benefit only extends to magical items that fail their save?

Good idea. Will do.

Because that's standardized class creation as outlined and stressed in official "How to create a class" and "How to create a monster" material.

Official? As in, WotC? As in, the guys who botched up monsters so incredibly badly that we're devoting hundreds, if not thousands of hours to rectifying that?

My bad on the reduced speed, though that does make me raise a further eyebrow at the size, versatility and breadth of the bonuses. Did a ctrl-f to find 'fatigued' in the SRD and the first place it took me was the exhausted condition. Even so, getting extra actions tends to be broken or easily breakable, and like I said, I shy away from such.

In any event, you've got bonus init so you're liable to win initiative, and for that pivotal encounter of the day, you can open up with two standard actions. You're a caster, so the drawback isn't that bad, and forcing two save or lose effects on the enemy caster before they even get a turn is a considerable advantage. As a pseudo-caster yourself, the drawbacks of exhaustion are fairly minor - a -3 to AC and lowered reflex saves.

Yes... but you can only do that once per day, and after that your initiative drops by something like 5 points. It's powerful, yes, but it's not OMGWTFBBQ. You can get the same thing in a belt of battle without having to suffer through the exhausted condition (which is pretty meaty).

Meh. Lots of orphaned flavor text makes for less suspension of disbelief and more mild annoyance on the part of the player/DM/class reviewers.

Listen, I just wanted to make it a little flavorful. I wanted to make all of the invocations a little flavorful. Do you really want me to write up a bunch of info on this guy? Who is Azathoth, by the way? (I mean, really, not that hard to guess.)

Surely you mean you'll down the DC?

Noooo... I'll up the DC that the PC will be saving against.

(+11 base, +6 from core stats, +4 from cloak of resistance, +5 from periapt of Iron Will, +1 luckstone, +2 from Iron Will feat, +2 from Protection from Evil, +2 from Owl's Wisdom)

That is obscene. Wisdom is a dump stat. You're more likely to have -1 from core stats. Also, why would you have a constant owl's wisdom? Or protection from evil? And Iron Will is generally lauded as a mediocre feat. Oh, and the periapt of iron will is just kindof silly. So, considering that most people won't pump their will save to that extent, and considering that this is supposed to be on par with a 9th level spell, I'm going to change the DC to (10+1/2 HD+Highest ability score modifier). Then the mature adult red dragon will have its save DC be in the mid 30s.

[Betropper]

Speaking of which: first five people to post and ask for a critique on their monsters that's more than a week old get my critique. I want to do some critiquing, but I don't want to waste time and energy on anything that's been abandoned.

My Gibberring Mouther needs a critique if I'm not mistaken.

[Saidoro]

Cloaker

Spoiler

Show

I like the idea of a Cloaker hiding on a fellow adventurer, nice touch with the half weight addition.
Engulf is unclear as to weather it needs to succeed on a touch attack before attempting to grapple an opponent. Grapples require touch attacks.
The ability to grapple, and attack other creatures without a penalty is very strong. While normally creatures with improved grab may grapple as if they were not at a -20 penalty, normal creatures cannot attack outside of the grapple at all. Consider allowing the attacks, but perhaps at a healthy penalty? Neither of its attacks are very powerful, and it can only do that when engulfing, which at first level means small creatures only. I don't see it as a major problem.
Engulfing leap mentions flight, which the cloaker does not yet have, it may be good to specify that it must land after this flying bout. It has to end the flying bout with an engulf attempt, it can end up anywhere as long as that anywhere is another creature's head.
It seems as if you are unsure when these abilities should be available without darkness. I am unsure whether they should be available without darkness. Removed that part.
The language in the moans alternates between mentioning enemies and anyone. I doubt a sonic-mind effecting screech could differentiate between ally and enemy, but if it can, you may wish to be consistent with it. Good point.
I suppose fear effects aren't terribly strong when everyone will be resisting or immune to them at this level, but still save or panicked is quite strong. It's only for two rounds and there will likely be at least one ally within 30 ft.
Stupor mentions level rather than HD, which implies that it comes into play at Cloaker L.9, which their isn't. You may wish to change that to HD. Right.
While some of the options are nice, it seems to me to be a very bare class, it could use some more fun abilities, maybe more fluffy ones that can play off the idea that it looks like a cloak, I mean, why not take advantage of the fact that a party member can wear it. I mean, think of all the awesome abilities a semi-magical living cloak that abhors nature could grant to your adventuring buddies!Consider it done

In related news, I'd like to request Gorgondantess's thoughts on the cloaker.

Razor Boar

Spoiler

Show

You may wish to detail trample's action and effects in its entry.
Also, I think "1.5" would be better than "3/2" for the strength modifier as bonus damage. Okay
3rd level this class is looking might barren, and mighty vanilla. So far it has trample, some natural attacks and a little DR, compare this to other Melee monsters of 3rd level, usually there is already some nice combat abilities. I've got an idea for a third level ability in the works, still needs more stuff though.
Fourth level is all critical bumping...which isn't very fun for the play, nor very active. It's a fine side ability, but fourth level should offer an active attack or something. Maybe something like "Spear-hilt Charge" allowing the Boar an AoO against any creature that readies a weapon against it's charge. Okay, I'll work on something.
At fifth level this guy hasn't got much going for him other than his size.
Reflexive gore has some wording issues that seem to imply that the Boar can attack itself, which makes little sense. I mean, of course it can attack itself, but why have an ability that allows it to do so? What wording issues are these? I don't see them.
This class is in serious need of some creative active options. Working on it
Waiting for a critical to happen is a mugs game played by fighters and non-errata Talenta-scythe wielders. I'll keep that in mind.
To answer a few of your questions IMO
* Should I up the racial bonus to bull rush?: Meh. No real need to.
* Is Sharp Tusks broken?: Not so much broken as boring.
* Is Unstoppable to much?: No, it's both weaker and stronger than Deathless frenzy, so I see no real problem with it, and its one of the more active abilities this class has. Maybe it belongs higher on the table, at a higher level, but the table needs some more filling out.
* Crazy Sharp: y/n?: If she must be critical focused, the ability to Critical Against those pesky Undead/Oozes/Constructs/Fortified Armor Wearing savvy Jerks is always a good idea. However it is also suffering from the fact that it is very passive.
I think I've hit the active/passive nail enough times to mar the wood. It's a tough beastie to build, good luck with the revisions! Thanks.