Merging the Psuedonatural and Lich template

[Fortinbro]

During my last campaign, right before the party fought the bigger bad the big bad flung himself into the far realms rather than letting the party defeat him.

He has since been re-created as a puppet of that realm's over-deity and may make an appearance in the sequel campaign I'm running.

How would you go about combining these two templates?:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monst...alCreature.htm

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich

If it can't be done, thoughts on what I should try instead?

[Eldan]

Why do you need to merge them? Applying both is perfectly legal.

[Fortinbro]

I guess what I'm wondering is would he suddenly gain a CON score and count as a living outsider?

How would that work for phylactery based resurrection? What about the fact that he has a prestige class and feats which require him to be undead?

[Emperor Ing]

The template changes your type to Outsider, not Living Outsider. Nothing is preventing the lich from retaining Undead traits. For all intents and purposes he still doesn't have a Con score then.

[Debihuman]

Yes, the lich loses his Undead status once you apply the Pseudonatural Template as he gains Con +10. He'd just be an Outsider (Extraplanar).

Debby

[THEChanger]

Yes, the lich loses his Undead status once you apply the Pseudonatural Template as he gains Con +10. He'd just be an Outsider (Extraplanar).

Debby

Query. Is it ever stated that changing Type due to a template causes the monster to lose the traits of their previous Type? I know the SRD section on the subject says-

Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

-but it doesn't explicitly say that the old Traits are lost. And since the lich's Con would be - rather than 0, I'm not sure adding 10 to it would do anything. 10+-=?

[TuggyNE]

Query. Is it ever stated that changing Type due to a template causes the monster to lose the traits of their previous Type? I know the SRD section on the subject says-



-but it doesn't explicitly say that the old Traits are lost. And since the lich's Con would be - rather than 0, I'm not sure adding 10 to it would do anything. 10+-=?

The phrasing implies that you only ever get one set of traits or features at a time; i.e., the "Traits" section is set to Y instead of X and the "Features" section remains at X.

[Zaydos]

The phrasing implies that you only ever get one set of traits or features at a time; i.e., the "Traits" section is set to Y instead of X and the "Features" section remains at X.

Despite my knee jerk reaction being to disagree checking Fiendish Dire Rat it lacks Low-light Vision (a Trait of animals) but does have Darkvision 60-ft (a Trait of Magical Beasts). So it looks like you're correct.

[Debihuman]

The phrasing implies that you only ever get one set of traits or features at a time; i.e., the "Traits" section is set to Y instead of X and the "Features" section remains at X.

"A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Usually doesn't mean always. You have to follow the template to see how this changes. Note that the Pseudonatural Template adds Con +10 to the base creature. "Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence at least 3." That to me, indicates that the creature gains Con +10.

This is why you have to be very careful when adding acquired templates. You have follow the template exactly.

Debby

[Amechra]

Then cheat!

Apply Pseudonatural, then Lich. If anyone asks about it, bluff heavily.

[Kaje]

You're the DM. Do what you want.

[BornValyrian]

Being undead makes his con score "-", not "0". As far as I can tell, you can't increase a "-" score, as the score simply doesn't exist.

Don't know if it helps at all. Sounds like one badass crazy-lich.

[Zaydos]

As to the OP's problem options:

1. Allow the augmented undead subtype to let your BBEG keep the stuff requiring undead type.
2. Make a custom modified Undead Pseudonatural template which is identical except that it only applies to undead, leaves you undead, and grants you +5 hit points per hit die.
3. Make something more unique to fit your game based on rules of cool/awesome/cosmic horror.

[TuggyNE]

"A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Usually doesn't mean always. You have to follow the template to see how this changes. Note that the Pseudonatural Template adds Con +10 to the base creature. "Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence at least 3." That to me, indicates that the creature gains Con +10.

That doesn't negate my point, since Con +10 is not a type trait.

Actually, I suspect the lich's Con would become some arbitrary number upon losing the Undead traits (which includes Con -), probably 10, and from there it would go up by 10.

[Debihuman]

That doesn't negate my point, since Con +10 is not a type trait.

Actually, I suspect the lich's Con would become some arbitrary number upon losing the Undead traits (which includes Con -), probably 10, and from there it would go up by 10.

No, it goes from Con -- to Con 10 if you follow the template. And yes, you can add Pseudonatural Creature Template to Undead, but that doesn't mean you have to do it in ways that don't follow the template.

Here is the thing, order matters. You cannot add Lich Template to anything that isn't Humanoid so you have to apply Lich Template first. Then you can add the Pseudonatural Creature Template because that can be added to any corporeal creature.

Debby

[TuggyNE]

No, it goes from Con -- to Con 10 if you follow the template.

Not sure that's guaranteed, but it's really kind of ambiguous that way; it might become Con 0 and then Con 10, it might become Con 10 and then Con 20, or it might become Con (whatever it was) and then Con (whatever it was + 10). I think the second is more likely but I don't think the interaction is actually defined.

What is clear, however, is that the character will definitely have a non-null Con score.

[Xuldarinar]

In the libris mortus, its said you can apply the lich template to fiends (lichfiends, Libris Mortus pg. 156). I think one could easily take the precedent set there and adjust it. Apply the Pseudonatural template, then apply the lich template with the following adjustment: Damage Reduction 15/byeshk and bludgeoning


Also:
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060407a

[Debihuman]

Both the Good Lich and Lichfiend are VARIANT liches from Libris Mortis The lichfiend is USUALLY a demon or devil (which the base creature is not, even if you apply Pseudonatural Template first) and must have 5 at will spell-like abilities, the craft wondrous item feat and CL 11 or higher. It even lists which creatures are eligible.

The OP doesn't say much about the BBEG in his campaign and we don't know the party level either. As you pointed out, you can always break the rules.

In this case, I was pointing out that the rules didn't even need to be broken to use both templates, which was the original question.

Ultimately, it is the job of the DM to create the villains. If adding lich AFTER pseudonatural fits your campaign, then by all means do so. Note too that the pseudonatural template is EPIC so be sure that fits (it adds significantly to CR between +10 to +16) while turning into a lich only adds CR +2.

Debby

[Fortinbro]

He would have to be Lich first.

Since a few people have requested more information, here is his article on my wiki. http://gaea-the-legendary-realm.wiki...i/Nyarlathotep

[Xuldarinar]

Both the Good Lich and Lichfiend are VARIANT liches from Libris Mortis The lichfiend is USUALLY a demon or devil (which the base creature is not, even if you apply Pseudonatural Template first) and must have 5 at will spell-like abilities, the craft wondrous item feat and CL 11 or higher. It even lists which creatures are eligible.

The OP doesn't say much about the BBEG in his campaign and we don't know the party level either. As you pointed out, you can always break the rules.

In this case, I was pointing out that the rules didn't even need to be broken to use both templates, which was the original question.

Ultimately, it is the job of the DM to create the villains. If adding lich AFTER pseudonatural fits your campaign, then by all means do so. Note too that the pseudonatural template is EPIC so be sure that fits (it adds significantly to CR between +10 to +16) while turning into a lich only adds CR +2.

Debby

Granted, they are variants. I simply was referring to them as potential means of aiding the combination of the two, as normally an outsider is not eligible for the Lich template. Now, yes, it can work the other way around without variants or rule-breaking, but we then have to reconcile the issue with Constitution. Considering that an undead pseudonatural creature would gain 12xHD hp, and any other pseudonatural creature, assuming the outsider type, gains (8+Con Mod)xHD. One way, we have to decide what to do with that pesky Constitution score, the other we have to break (or bend) a rule.

My suggestion for the DR is altering what the LichFiend variant does with the DR. Now, given that warlocks hat draw their power from a bond to Xorat (discussed in Dragon Magazine 332), they may have DR/Byeshk. So I figured, why not make a similar swap in this case?

Im aware that the variant is for fiends, but its not a huge step to extend that to any outsider, making tweaks as necessary. I do note that a psudeonatural creature could qualify if they got one more at-will spell-like ability, and that they were evil aligned. It does say evil outsider, and not Outsider (Evil) after all. But then we are going into semantics, dealing in the difference between evil and (Evil), and that discussion is irrelevant.

Now, given that there is a supposed need to combine the templates and not a discussion on the original post of their compatibility, I am going to assume the base BBEG is not a lich. I don't know if they technically qualify for the template anyways (are they a spellcaster? do they have the needed feat? are they a humanoid?). Given the situation at hand, personally I believe that if there is a need to apply both, and that the BBEG is not already one or the other which it doesn't sound like, using the psudeonatural template before the lich template makes the most sense. Referring to the variant, one could alter it as I suggested or since half-farspawn have DR/Magic, there isn't necessarily a need to alter the lich template at all here. Only the allowance for the template to be applied to something that isn't normally eligible (an outsider) need be necessary.


Edit: Thank you for the additional of information. I have a simple solution then. Apply things in the order of lich, then psudonatural creature, but follow the example of the epic level handbook's atropal? Seeing as they are listed as "Large Undead, Outsider (Evil)", why not make the resulting creature also dual typed?

Edit 2: I love his tainted design. Just wanted to say that.

[Amechra]

Here's the thing; applying them the other way around (Pseudonatural, then Lich) would remove the issue with Constitution. It would change nothing else mechanically.

Heck, just don't adjust the Constitution, and bam! Same effect.

[Debihuman]

Has this been statted out yet? Where is the Keeper of Oblivion prestige class from?

Debby

[Fortinbro]

Has this been statted out yet? Where is the Keeper of Oblivion prestige class from?

Debby

Keeper of Oblivion is from Complete Guide to Liches. I will probably re-stat him out this weekend for those who are curious.

I think I will end up going with what the epic level handbook did for Atropal as a base-guideline. That should actually solve my problems.

[Fortinbro]

As requested, the stat sheet:

Some explanations - Keeper of Oblivion is from Complete Guide to Liches. Death's Blessing is from one of the Tome of Horrors books. Spell shield is an alternate class feature replacing familiar summoning. These are his stats without buffs up.

Yog-Sothoth is the overdeity of the Far Realms in my campaign setting.

The following house-rule is also in effect to justify why demon/devil lords have so few items in the books:

True full-blooded non-native outsiders and full-blooded dragons and deities cannot have abilities added or have their ability scores, saving throws, skills, or armor class increased by static bonuses from magic items. The exception is that deities and certain powerful outsiders sometimes have specific items created from their essence. These items, if created by an outsider, reform in 99 years if destroyed and appear with their creator. Casting revive outsider on a destroyed outsider will also return their soul item(s) if they are destroyed as well. Outsiders, deities, and dragons can still benefit from spells being cast on them from magic items such as by command word items.



Nyarlathotep, The Harbinger

Level 11 Sorcerer/Level 9 Keeper of Oblivion

Chaotic Evil Male Psuedonatural Evolved Undead Lich (former human)

Size: Medium

Worshipper of Yog Sothoth

STR: 30+10

DEX: 29+9

CON: _

INT: 15+2

WIS: 22+6

CHA: 39+14

AC: 60 (+9 DEX,+35 Natural, +6 armor)

Speed: 60ft

FORT: +6+0 CON = +6

REF: +6+9 DEX =+15

WIS: +13+6 WIS = +19

BAB: +9/ 6 Tentacles +9/+4

Melee: +19/+6 Tentacles +19/+14

Ranged: +18/+13

Ranged:

Tentacles 2d4+10 + improved grab + 2d4 CON drain (no save) each round grabbing

HP: 520

Init: +20

Skills:

Spellcraft: 19 ranks +2 INT +2 Arcana syngery = +23

Knowledge: Arcana: 16 ranks +2 INT =+18

Knowledge: Religion: 16 ranks +2 INT = +18 (+2 on turning checks)

Knowledge: The Planes: 16 ranks +2 INT = +18 (+2 on survival on other planes)

Concentration: 16 ranks +14 CHA = +30

Bluff: 16 ranks + 14 CHA = +30

Sense Motive: 16 ranks +6 WIS+8 racial = +30

Feats:

Investigator (+2 on Gather Information & Search checks)

Spell Focus: Enchantment: +1 on Enchantment Spell DCs

Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment +2 on Enchantment Spell DCs

Death’s Blessing –CHA replaces CON for HP

Multi-Attack

Improved Multi-Attack

Improved Initiative - +4 Init

Improved Spell Like Ability –Mass Obliterate

Quicken Spell Like Ability: Mass Obliterate 3x/day can use it as a quickened action

Undead:

Undead Traits

Evolved Undead:

+2 CHA

Fast Healing 3

+1 Natural Armor

1x/Day Greater Invisibility as a Supernatural Ability

Lich:

+2 INT, WIS, CHA

Paralyzing Touch

Negative Energy Touch

DR: 15/bludgeoning and magic (overwritten by Psuedonatural)

+5 Natural Armor (overwritten by pseudonatural)

Phylactery (In Yog Sothoth’s control in Far Realms)

Immune to cold, electricity, and polymorph

+8 racial bonus to hide, listen, move silently, search, spot, sense motive

Psuedonatural:

Improved Grab

Acid Resistance 40

Spell Resistance: 100

Double Speed

Damage Reduction: 15/Epic

+35 Natural Armor

+22 STR, +10 DEX, +10 WIS, +10 CHA

At will- Blur, shield, dimension door, unhallow

Natural weapons treated as epic and ignore all concealment

Alternate Form: As standard action become writhing mass of tentacles enemies suffer -1 morale penalty attacking.

Class:

Telekinesis 3x/day (up to 2,000 pounds) DC: 44 WILL save or tripped, bull rushed, grappled, or disarmed, or push/pull up to 15 characters up to 200ft.

Spell Shield –Sacrifice spell slot to prevent damage equal to 5x spell level

Aura of Exhaustion –living creatures in 60ft take -6 on STR and DEX and move at half speed, cannot run or charge

Mental Fog – If within 120ft DC 44 WILL save or forget encountering Harbinger , one save every hour for next 12 hours.

Obliterate Mass -30ft burst if hit, DC 46 (+2 ability focus) WILL SAVE or pulled into harbinger’s heart, body ripped apart, and soul cast into the far realms. Successful save deals 10D6. 3x/day

Obliterate-As above but long ranged touch attack, once per day

Gear:

Rod of Greater Maximize (3x/day)

Rod of Greater Quicken (3x/day)

(Soul Item) +1 Eager Warning Gauntlet +7 INIT

(Soul Item) – Bracers of Armor +6

Wealth:

Spell DCS:

24+Spell level

26+ Spell Level if Enchantment

Spells/day

1-10

2-10

3-10

4-10

5-10

6-9

7-8

8-8

9-8

[Fax Celestis]

No, it goes from Con -- to Con 10 if you follow the template. And yes, you can add Pseudonatural Creature Template to Undead, but that doesn't mean you have to do it in ways that don't follow the template.

Nope.

Ø is not 0.

Ø is the absence of an ability. Ø + 10 is still Ø. 0 + 10 is 10.

[Debihuman]

Nope.

Ø is not 0.

Ø is the absence of an ability. Ø + 10 is still Ø. 0 + 10 is 10.

Depends on whether the creature stops being Undead. An Undead that becomes an Outsider is no longer Undead and thus gains its Con back. An Outsider that becomes an Undead loses its Con obviously. This is WHY it matters which order you apply the templates. A pseudonatural creature that becomes a lich is Undead. However, a lich that becomes a pseudonatural creature becomes an Outsider and is no longer an Undead.


As for the creature: it has racial HD and class HD and you should have those noted as well. Obviously in this case, the Lich is the last template applied.

Debby

[Fax Celestis]

What, exactly, do you think the augmented subtype is for?

[Debihuman]

For identifying the original creature. In this case, you add (Augmented Humanoid [Human]). It's a convoluted process no matter which way you cut it.

Debby

[Amechra]

Wait, what makes you think that changing type to Outsider gives them back their Constitution?

The Undead type explicitly says that you have no Con score; when you lose that type, however, Outsider doesn't say "they have a Con score" as part of its traits. So you don't get it that way.

I mean, you could argue that you get it back implicitly, in which case I point out that D&D is an exception-based ruleset, and as such "implicit" really doesn't mean much in context.

Note that Incarnate Construct explicitly states that they get a Con score after becoming Humanoid; if that was just assumed as part of changing types, would they have mentioned it?

I mean, if you gave an Ooze or Vermin a template that changed their type, would they automatically lose their Int Ø?

I mean, even if that was the case... there isn't a Con score to default to. The template mentions nothing, and an Undead creature lacks a Con score (regardless of the fact that they might have had one in the past, they've had it explicitly removed.)

EDIT: tl;dr: Debihuman, can you quote any rules that actually support your position? I don't mean implicitly, I mean that explicitly state that changing type from Undead or Construct to something that normally has a Con score gives them a Con score.

[Fax Celestis]

For identifying the original creature. In this case, you add (Augmented Humanoid [Human]). It's a convoluted process no matter which way you cut it.

That is not what it's for.

Augmented Subtype
A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

And per this article, once a creature is undead, it stays undead.

Other Creature Types: Creatures with most other types are affected just as humanoids are when class features change their types. Undead creatures require some special handling. The transformation into an undead creature is profound -- so much so that the rules often don't bother with assigning the augmented subtype when creatures become undead (for example, the mummy and the ghoul). Transformation to undeath also is pretty much unalterable unless the creature returns to life (in which case it would regain its old creature type). To reflect the unique state of undeath, apply any class-induced change in type to the creature's original type, even if the creature has not received the augmented subtype for its original type. For example, a ghoul with levels in the monk class begins as an undead (augmented humanoid). When the ghoul becomes a 20th-level monk, it becomes an undead (augmented outsider, native). The ghoul retains all its undead features and traits.

Due to this, the creature would become an Undead (Augmented Outsider) instead of an Outsider (Augmented Undead). Undead (Augmented Outsider) have these traits and features:

Features
An outsider has the following features.

• 8-sided Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
• Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
• Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• No Constitution score.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
• Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
• Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
• Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
• Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
• Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
• Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
• Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
• Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.