Tome of Tactics: A sequel to ToB [PEACH]

[playswithfire]

For divine Gish are you just doing arcane swordsage with the cleric spell list?

Sort of.
I didn't want to give any of the gishes full spellcasting/manifesting, which is why so far, the arcane firebrand gets bard spells and the psychic soldier manifests like a psychic warrior. Current plan for the swordsaint is that he loses access to three disciplines but gains access to three cleric domains and can learn spells from those domains of a level learnable by a bard of his initiator level.
Reduce Ref save to poor and he loses Quick to Act, but gain the domain ability of one of the chosen domains. Maybe reduce maneuvers known by 1 or something. Still need to flesh it out.

[Hazzardevil]

Sort of.
I didn't want to give any of the gishes full spellcasting/manifesting, which is why so far, the arcane firebrand gets bard spells and the psychic soldier manifests like a psychic warrior. Current plan for the swordsaint is that he loses access to three disciplines but gains access to three cleric domains and can learn spells from those domains of a level learnable by a bard of his initiator level.
Reduce Ref save to poor and he loses Quick to Act, but gain the domain ability of one of the chosen domains. Maybe reduce maneuvers known by 1 or something. Still need to flesh it out.

I think losing 2 disciplines is enough really, seeing as they are losing roughly 27 maneuvers to choose from for each disciplnine and only gaining 6 spells as options per Domain, and a power, which is worth about a feat.
I agree with losing reflex save and quick to act though.

[playswithfire]

Revised soulsword and new swordsaint and sage of the forge below, though I still need to tweak sage of the forge a bit, mainly the details of it's Craft Reserve-like ability. I'm considering making Sage of the Forge a viable variant for the Mercenary as well, replacing Wisdom with Intelligence where needed.

{table=head]Variant | Access to | Maneuvers Known | Maneuvers Readied
Standard Swordsage | 6 disciplines | 6-25 | 4-12
Sage of the Forge | 5 disciplines | 5-24 | 4-12
Soulsword | 4 disciplines | 4-23 | 3-11
Swordsaint | 3 disciplines and 4 domains | 4-23* | 3-11
[/table]
* maneuvers or divine spells

-- out of date versions removed; see front page --

[Hazzardevil]

I think 1/2 craft reserve isn't enough really because that means you can't craft a 1st level maneuver weapon until 5th level without spending your proper exp.

[playswithfire]

I think 1/2 craft reserve isn't enough really because that means you can't craft a 1st level maneuver weapon until 5th level without spending your proper exp.

You're right, good catch; made it equivalent to artificer, but based on class level, not initiator level. Also made it clear that swordsaints can learn 1st level spells at 1st level, since there are no 0-level domain spells.
What do you think of a soulsword losing detect magic and getting the ability to form the mindblade as a free action at 7th level?

Updated the Sublime Shapehifter. It now basically is Force of Nature, so I'll have to scrap that and add the other prestige class I've been thinking about (Devoted Spirit/Life's Blood/Maybe Crashing Wave; sort of flow of energy warrior/healer).

[Hazzardevil]

Aside from the legacy weapons, what else needs doing on the project?

Because aside from piling on more ACF's (you can never have too many ACF's) I don't think there is much left to do.

[playswithfire]

Aside from the legacy weapons, what else needs doing on the project?

Because aside from piling on more ACF's (you can never have too many ACF's) I don't think there is much left to do.

There's not a whole lot left; the to-do list basically looks like (not necessarily in order):
The other 5 new legacy weapons
The new Prc that will replace Force of Nature since the Sublime Shapeshifter ACF makes it sort of pointless
A few more ACFs, with an emphasis on lower tier classes (though trying to limit it to Core, Completes, and ToB
maybe: find appropriate artwork and make an HTML/PDF version

At which point it's essentially done, but I might:
Improve the fluff/flesh out the classes (sections on Playing an X, Sample Encounter, etc)
Playtest and adjust things (mainly maneuvers and feats, I think) based on playtest data
maybe: add a section of rules on Weapon of Legacy succession; the transition of legacy item between competitors and what happens when you lose the weapon but don't renounce it because you're trying to get it back
probably: finish up the work in the Weapons thread about alternative, thematic WoL penalties, though that might be part of AoW instead of this

[Hazzardevil]

There's not a whole lot left; the to-do list basically looks like (not necessarily in order):
The other 5 new legacy weapons
The new Prc that will replace Force of Nature since the Sublime Shapeshifter ACF makes it sort of pointless
A few more ACFs, with an emphasis on lower tier classes (though trying to limit it to Core, Completes, and ToB
maybe: find appropriate artwork and make an HTML/PDF version

At which point it's essentially done, but I might:
Improve the fluff/flesh out the classes (sections on Playing an X, Sample Encounter, etc)
Playtest and adjust things (mainly maneuvers and feats, I think) based on playtest data
maybe: add a section of rules on Weapon of Legacy succession; the transition of legacy item between competitors and what happens when you lose the weapon but don't renounce it because you're trying to get it back
probably: finish up the work in the Weapons thread about alternative, thematic WoL penalties, though that might be part of AoW instead of this

Hopefully you can run another tome of tactics playtest.
In other news, I'm playtesting sage of the forge gestalted with a paladin fix. I'll post results on how well it goes.

Edit:
Do you think that we should allow the AC bonus in armour for Sage of the Forge as it disallows you from using warheart items for counters otherwise.

[playswithfire]

Do you think that we should allow the AC bonus in armour for Sage of the Forge as it disallows you from using warheart items for counters otherwise.

Hmm, maybe. I'd probably make it:
1st level: craft reserve
4th level: feat and retain the AC bonus when wielding non-magical shields they made themselves
8th level: identify and extract xp
12th level: add Wis bonus to touch AC up to max of total AC when wearing exclusively non-magical (warheart counts) armor
16th level: when wearing only non-magical armor (warheart counts) you made yourself, add their full AC bonus to your touch AC instead of just your Wis bonus

Reference list of ACFs I could still make in an effort to bring things to around the tier 2.5-3.5 level. Samurai, Ninja, and Swashbuckler are the priorities.

Spoiler

Show

Tier 1
- Wizard: has an ACF, but it doesn't reduce the power level
- Cleric: can be replaced with Swordsaint
- Druid: can be replaced with Sublime Shapeshifter
- Erudite: has the psion ACF, but it doesn't reduce the power level
Tier 2
- Sorcerer: no replacement, no ACF
- Favored Soul: no replacement, no ACF
- Psion: has an ACF, but it doesn't reduce the power level
Tier 4
- Rogue: replace with sneak attack mercenary
- Barbarian: replace with raging huntsman
- Warlock: no ACF
- Warmage: no ACF
- Scout: replace with skirmish mercenary
- Ranger: replace with huntsman
- Hexblade: no ACF
- Spellthief: no ACF
- Marshal: replace with firebrand
Tier 5
- Fighter: replace with soldier
- Monk: already replaced by swordsage
- CA Ninja: no ACF Shinobi ACF
- Swashbuckler: no ACF Corsair ACF
- Soulknife: replace with soulsword
- Paladin: already replaced by crusader
- Knight: no ACF, but arguably already replaced by crusader
Tier 6
- CW Samurai: no ACF, but Bushi ACF and added Bushi Spirit feat

[playswithfire]

Updates:
Sage of the forge - redistributed abilities and gave ability to use shield it creates
Soulsword - now trades sense magic for the ability to create/reshape blade faster
New ACF category: Partial adept, which is basically to maneuvers what bard is to spells
Bushi - Samurai learns Devoted Spirit and Wandering Eye
Corsair - Swashbuckler learns Crashing Wave and Desert Wind (cold)
Shinobi -Ninja learns Iron Heart and Shadow Hand

Next priorities: Hail of Arrows and the new prestige class.

Spoiler

Show

Odd ACF/Adaptation idea I had but probably won't implement. Since I'm sort of trying to use the ACFs to create a Tier 2.5-3.5 version of everything and bard is already T3, I could make the arcane firebrand into a sorcerer downgrade and add an arcane mercenary that would be the wizard downgrade.
Both would pull from the sorcerer/wizard spell list and be able to learn spells of a maximum level learnable by a bard of their initiator level. The distinction would be:
Arcane firebrand can only learn spells from the Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, and Transmutation schools
Arcane mercenary can only learn spells from the Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Necromancy schools

[NineThePuma]

With this update, you have MADE MY DAY. Completely.

PARTIAL ADEPT
With the advent of martial maneuvers, some of the earlier melee classes seem short on options. The concept of a partial adept, a modified version of an exising base class which trades some of its class features for a knowledge of the Sublime Way that exceeds normal characters, but is less than that of a martial adept, can help bridge the gap. All partial adepts gain variations of the same benefits; the replaced class features are discussed in the listings below.
Benefit: A partial adept has access to two martial disciplines, knows one first level martial stance and two martial maneuvers, both of which he can ready, at first level. He learns a new maneuver at each odd class level and can learn a new maneuver in place of a known maneuver at fourth level and each even level thereafter and can ready an additional maneuver at fourth, tenth, and sixteenth level. He learns a new stance at seventh, thirteenth, and nineteenth level. A partial adept learns maneuvers and stances of a lower level than a true martial adept, as shown below.

First off, most of the benefit section needs to be cleaned up, as it contains a bunch of run on sentences.

The underlined section is poorly phrased. It's grammatically correct, but might be better phrased as "A partial adept learns stronger maneuvers and stances at a later level than a true martial adept, as shown below."

{table=head]Initiator level|Maneuver level

1st - 3rd|1st

4th - 6th|2nd

7th - 9th|3rd

10th - 12th|4th

13th - 15th|5th

16th - 20th|6th

[/table]

BUSHI
A bushi is a samurai who has more carefully studied the art of warfare. Where samurai would simply let out a mighty roar and change into a fight, a bushi assesses his opposition and adjusts his tactics to every battle.
Class: Samurai
Level: 1st
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the Kiai smite, Iajutsu master, or Improved Initiative class features.
Benefit: You become a partial adept with access to the Devoted Spirit and Wandering Eye disciplines and you can use an Intimidate check instead of a Bluff check when feinting. A bushi can recover all expended maneuvers whenever he demoralizes one or more opponents but can not initiate a maneuver in the same round that he does.

I would argue that Wandering Eye doesn't quite fit the image of the Samurai. I would consider Master's Voice in its place, or White Raven.

However, it's your project and I can only advice, etc.

But what was your reasoning for Wandering Eye?

CORSAIR
Unlike the standard swashbuckler, a corsair tends to face his enemies more directly, striking with the power of sea, which has become his home, behind every blow.
Class: Swashbuckler
Level: 1st
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the Dodge bonus, Improved flanking, Weakening critical, or Wounding critical class features.
Benefit: You become a partial adept with access to the Crashing Wave and Desert Wind disciplines, except that your Desert Wind maneuvers which normally deal fire damage deal cold damage instead, deal one less point of damage per die, and, if they normally allow a reflex save, instead allow a fortitude save. A corsair recovers all his expended maneuvers each time he successfully tumbles through a square occupied by an opponent without being hit, but can not initiate a maneuver in the same round he does so.

I would consider Acid damage damage instead of Cold damage.

The recovery mechanic here is downright unworkable. It's a DC 25 tumble check to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

SHINOBI
While other ninja emphazise the precision of their blows and the potency of their poisons, a shinobi instead focuses on improving their own physical conditioning as well as a deeper understanding of the power of shadows.
Class: Ninja
Level: 1st
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the poison use or improved poison use class features and your sudden strike damage increases by 1d6 every four ninja levels beyond first level instead of every two.
Benefit: You become a partial adept with access to the Iron Heart and Shadow Hand disciplines. A shinobi can recover all expended maneuvers with a swift action that must be followed by an attack action or a standard action to do nothing.

Could you validate Iron Heart on a Ninja for me?

[Hazzardevil]

I would consider Acid damage damage instead of Cold damage.

I disagree, this ACF is for a someone at sea on a ship, not a rogue who poisons his opponents.
Anyway, acid is a more powerful element, all this is getting is basically a bonus feat along with some maneuvers.

The recovery mechanic here is downright unworkable. It's a DC 25 tumble check to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

This I agree with, maybe you have to make a tumble check and manage to avoid an Attack of Oppurtunity?

[NineThePuma]

Where do pirates sail? Generally not through icy/treacherous waters.

And at least Acid is a liquid. Sea water itself is a (weak) acid. It fits MORE thematically, IMO. but you're free to disagree with that.

[Hazzardevil]

Where do pirates sail? Generally not through icy/treacherous waters.

And at least Acid is a liquid. Sea water itself is a (weak) acid. It fits MORE thematically, IMO. but you're free to disagree with that.

I understand that Sea Water is a weak acid, but I feel you're pulling at straws now.
Water is cold, cold foes not mean freezing, although that is extreme cold.

Balance wise, Acid is a more powerful element than water, so you could use a blast maneuver from desert wind, fire it at a wall and the wall will melt.

[playswithfire]

First off, most of the benefit section needs to be cleaned up, as it contains a bunch of run on sentences.

The underlined section is poorly phrased. It's grammatically correct, but might be better phrased as "A partial adept learns stronger maneuvers and stances at a later level than a true martial adept, as shown below."

Agreed; in my effort to be brief/concise, I ended up being unclear. How's this:

Benefit: A partial adept gains an initiator level equal to his class level plus half his other class levels. He also gains a maneuver and stance progression, though the maneuvers and stances he learns are of lower level than a full adept of the same initiator level would learn, as shown in the table below.
Maneuvers: A partial adepts begins with the knowledge of two martial maneuvers and learns an additional maneuver at each odd class level. At fourth level and every even level thereafter, he can also learn a new maneuver is place of one he already knows. The disciplines available to a partial adept will vary from class to class.
Maneuvers Readied: A partial adept can ready both of his maneuvers at first level and can ready an additional maneuver at fourth, tenth, and sixteenth level.
Stances Known: A partial adept begins with knowledge of one first level martial stance and learns a new stance at seventh, thirteenth, and nineteenth level. The maximum level stance he can learn is the same as the maximum level maneuver he can learn.
{table=head]Initiator level | Maneuver level
1st - 3rd | 1st
4th - 6th | 2nd
7th - 9th | 3rd
10th - 12th | 4th
13th - 15th | 5th
16th - 20th | 6th[/table]

I would consider Acid damage damage instead of Cold damage.

I disagree, this ACF is for a someone at sea on a ship, not a rogue who poisons his opponents.
Anyway, acid is a more powerful element, all this is getting is basically a bonus feat along with some maneuvers.

Where do pirates sail? Generally not through icy/treacherous waters.
And at least Acid is a liquid. Sea water itself is a (weak) acid. It fits MORE thematically, IMO. but you're free to disagree with that.

I understand that Sea Water is a weak acid, but I feel you're pulling at straws now.
Water is cold, cold foes not mean freezing, although that is extreme cold.
Balance wise, Acid is a more powerful element than water, so you could use a blast maneuver from desert wind, fire it at a wall and the wall will melt.

I was thinking along the lines that water was cold and had actually not considered that sea water was a weak acid. I'm going to stick with the cold because, to me it fits better for the cold ocean water reason and (though I thought of this now and not when I wrote it) because the ocean is essentially the opposite of the desert and if fire represents the desert, then its opposite, cold, should represent the ocean.

The recovery mechanic here is downright unworkable. It's a DC 25 tumble check to move through a square occupied by an opponent.

This I agree with, maybe you have to make a tumble check and manage to avoid an Attack of Oppurtunity?

Uh, yeah, that's what I get for writing things up after midnight. Where I had "occupied," I meant "threatened" as HazzardEvil suggests.

I would argue that Wandering Eye doesn't quite fit the image of the Samurai. I would consider Master's Voice in its place, or White Raven.
However, it's your project and I can only advice, etc.
But what was your reasoning for Wandering Eye?

Could you validate Iron Heart on a Ninja for me?

In both cases, the odd choices came out of a desire to put together pairs of disciplines that no other single adept had and, in the case of Wandering Eye for samurai, there was the additional problem of having written and rewritten the disciplines a couple times and thus not remembering the exact tone they ended up with.

My revised choices would probably be
Bushi/Samurai: Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit: absolute mastery of the sword and dedication to a cause. I could also see Iron Heart and Master's Voice if I changed what features it lost; keep Kiai Smite and lose the intimidation progression, e.g.
Shinobi/Ninja: Shadow Hand and Setting Sun: shadow hand's the one the fits the best and this pairing will let it easily access Shadow Sun Ninja, which seems appropriate. I could see going with Wandering Eye or, more probably, Life's Blood instead of Setting Sun but then precision damage gets more complicated.

Thank you both for the feedback.

[NineThePuma]

Are you going to Errata Setting Sun Ninja so it... works?

[playswithfire]

Are you going to Errata Setting Sun Ninja so it... works?

Haven't looked at the class in a while; what doesn't work about Shadow Sun Ninja?

In any event, I think I'm changing my mind again
Bushi: Iron Heart and Master's Voice except they use Intimidate instead of Perform(oratory) for Master's Voice maneuvers and stances. Recovers when he demoralizes.
Absolute mastery of the sword and a commanding presence.

Corsair: Crashing Wave and Desert Wind except the desert wind maneuvers deal cold damage instead of fire. Recovers when he tumbles through a square threatened by an opponent without being struck by an attack of opportunity.
Fights with the power of the sea.

Shinboi: Shadow Hand and Life's Blood except the Life's Blood maneuvers grant and increase sudden strike damage instead of skirmish damage.
Moves through darkness and strikes fast and hard.

Except for the ninja, they each have access to a pair that no other adept has and each partial adept gets a twist put on the abilities of one of their disciplines to make it more distinctive.

[NineThePuma]

IIRC, they had mechanics that didn't quite work, and were very odd in execution.

I do, however, think that going Shinobi -> Shadow Sun Ninja was cool. x3

[playswithfire]

I do, however, think that going Shinobi -> Shadow Sun Ninja was cool. x3

Left shinobi as Life's Blood(sudden strike)/Shadow Hand, but gave it Improved Unarmed Strike and Heal as a class skill so that it can get into either Shadow Sun Ninja or Master of Surprise at fifth level by burning a single feat (Martial Study for a Setting Sun or Wandering Eye maneuver, respectively).

Updated partial adept benefit section and all three partial adepts on the first page.

[playswithfire]

Apologies for slowing down with the updates (assuming anyone is still watching this); vacation.

Latest updates:
Crunch for the Iron Rain legacy weapon in the Legacy Weapon thread
Updated the fluff for the crusader variants
Rewrote the Soldier Extended Boost and Focused Strike class features since, in preparing or some playtesting, I realized that, as originally written, they wouldn't apply very often.

Coming next: Legacy for the Iron Rain legacy weapon
Then the Life's Blood legacy weapon and the prestige class to replace Force of Nature (disciplines: Life's Blood, Diamond Mind, Crashing Wave or Devoted Spirit)

[Ziegander]

Why does the Corsair's cold-based Desert Wind deal less damage? Desert Wind is already the weakest discipline. It has no need to become any weaker. The change from reflex to fort saves, which are the strongest monster save, just causes its usefulness to plummet further.

[playswithfire]

Why does the Corsair's cold-based Desert Wind deal less damage? Desert Wind is already the weakest discipline. It has no need to become any weaker. The change from reflex to fort saves, which are the strongest monster save, just causes its usefulness to plummet further.

Consistency with the damage variants section of wizards' implementation of variant pyrokineticists and their use of the different elements in general. I would be fine not reducing the damage, but cold is usually a Fort save rather than Ref save, so I'd rather leave that as is. If I don't reduce the damage here, I'll probably tweak the Elemental Wind feat for consistency.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Hazzardevil]

Is Sublime Shapeshifter now a partial adept with the slower progression for maneuvers?

[playswithfire]

Is Sublime Shapeshifter now a partial adept with the slower progression for maneuvers?

No, sublime shapeshifter is still a full adept. Most, if not all of the classes and variants I've created her are balanced against the idea that a full (meaning swordage level, 1 maneuver/level) is equivalent to half/two-thirds casting (bard/psychic warrior), so the druid gives up his 9th level casting to get a swordsage level maneuver progression and some other class features.

It may be a faulty idea, but I don't have enough data to confirm or deny that yet and it feels right to me so far.

[NineThePuma]

Partial Adepts get the REALLY short end of the stick then, don't they?

[Hazzardevil]

Partial Adepts get the REALLY short end of the stick then, don't they?

Not every Ninja wants to be a full on single strike a round attacker.

[playswithfire]

Partial Adepts get the REALLY short end of the stick then, don't they?

But at least they now they have any end of the stick at all. I didn't want to just make all the tier 5 melee classes into full adepts, but I did want to give them something of a power boost, and the result was the partial adepts.

It probably doesn't bring those classes past Tier 4, but I envision games using tome of tactics to mainly have classes in the T2-T4 range, with T3 being the most common.

[Hawkflight]

There are a couple questions I have about the Blade Magician PrC.

Blade Magic (Su): Having mastered both magic and the sublime way, blade magicians learn to use one to enhance the other. Each Blade Magic ability allow you to either sacrifice a spell to gain a new means of attack or to use the spells as part of your attacks. The maximum level of spell you may use as part of your Blade Magic abilities is one fourth of your caster level, rounded down.

Nothing up my sleeve: One of the signature abilities of a blade magician, you can create blades of magical energy. As a free action, you may expend a spell or spell slot to create a number of spell shards equal to your caster level which last for 1 round, can be drawn as a free action, and function like daggers except that they deal d4 damage times the level of the spell sacrificed and you do not add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. You also gain a bonus on attack rolls with the spell shards equal to the spell level. Damage done by the shards is the same as the type of damage done by the spell, if any, or slashing damage if the spell does not cause damage. You may not use the Arcane Strike feat in the same round that you use this ability.

Question 1: Do you use these blades all on the same round as a standard action, or do you just use the blades as weapons in the standard way (wield one, attack, wield another, second attack, etc.)? If the latter, can your allies pick up and wield the ones you don't use?

Spotlight: Beginning at fifth level, you may initiate any Iron Rain strike with an initiation time of one standard action as a full-round action, using a spell with the shape ray as your weapon instead of a physical ranged or thrown weapon.

Question 2: Let's say I'm using Swordmage as my base class. Could I use a ranged weapon incantation instead of a ray spell, such as Shock or Lightning Fury or Light Bow?

[playswithfire]

Glad people are still looking at this. I definitely let work on this slide to work on a certification for work. Need to get back to this.

Question 1: Do you use these blades all on the same round as a standard action, or do you just use the blades as weapons in the standard way (wield one, attack, wield another, second attack, etc.)? If the latter, can your allies pick up and wield the ones you don't use?

You attack with them like they're normal weapons. Conjure one into your hand, throw it, conjure one into your other hand or another one into your first hand, throw it, repeat til you're out of attacks or shards.

I... honestly hadn't considered anyone but the blade magician using the shards, but, as written, I suppose you could conjure them and drop them on the ground and/or toss them to your allies. I see no reason to change that.

Question 2: Let's say I'm using Swordmage as my base class. Could I use a ranged weapon incantation instead of a ray spell, such as Shock or Lightning Fury or Light Bow?

If none of the swordmage's incantations are rays, I guess I'd consider letting them use a ranged incantation. Up to the DM, though.

[jguy]

I have got to say, the Mercenary, and the Life's Blood school, has been my plays group favorite classes in awhile. Rare that a homebrew class gets that from us. So kudos