Goblins V: It's Hard-Kore!

[AmberVael]

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So I'm guessing that this update almost certainly explains why we are seeing this particular iteration of the run. Along with answering the question of "How can something that always resets have any dramatic meaning?"

It doesn't really answer the question so much as just cheat out of it.
But that's a viable solution to it from an author perspective, of course.

[Kyouhen]

Not sure how the spoiler etiqutte for comics that have just appeared is handled in this thread, so I'll err on the safe side:

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You know, I don't even want to know what Psinmax got for trading in his humanity and conscience. Or what some people might call a soul.

On a lighter note, I think the Complete Monster page over at TVTropes needs an update. if it hasn't already.

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Probably the ability to sunder with his psionic powers.

[Miklus]

"When the serpent becomes your prey, friends will become enemies and love will fuel hate."

Oh yeah, that thing.

And it guess this answers my question about his arms. They are not mechanical...but worse.

...Psimax is *messed up* in the head.

[Giggling Ghast]

I just realized soemthing:

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PsinMax killed Kin and Forgath for XP. He's probably a level higher than the rest of the MinMaxes in the maxe.

XP is probably not rewarded in the Maze of Many until you actually succeed in escaping it. Otherwise you could enter as a Level 1 character and emerge as a god.

PsiMax probably killed Kin and Forgath the first 817 times so that they wouldn't try to reach the treasure room, giving him more time to study the dungeon.

Now he's killing them for the 818th time just to prevent them from stopping him.

[Lillith]

Holy swear words!* I mean... HOLY SWEAR WORDS!

*censored for the fact that there's no profanity in the human language that can describe my shock and horror in this current revelation.

[Porthos]

It doesn't really answer the question so much as just cheat out of it.
But that's a viable solution to it from an author perspective, of course.

I don't see how

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smashing the system underlying everything

is a cheat, myself. I think it's more like a very extreme version of refusing to play the game.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't think I like Psimax...

[Doran]

XP is probably not rewarded in the Maze of Many until you actually succeed in escaping it. Otherwise you could enter as a Level 1 character and emerge as a god.

PsiMax probably killed Kin and Forgath the first 817 times so that they wouldn't try to reach the treasure room, giving him more time to study the dungeon.

Now he's killing them for the 818th time just to prevent them from stopping him.

True but that's been sidestepped by the fact he remembers everything so he could have been getting xp for all his adventures.

[AmberVael]

I don't see how smashing the system underlying everything is a cheat, myself. I think it's more like a very extreme version of refusing to play the game.

It's not really a cheat from a character or author perspective- I was answering from the perspective of someone having been asked:

"How can something that always resets have any dramatic meaning?"

Removing the "always resetting" part simply ruins the answer. You can't correctly answer something if you change the very premise.

In summary:
It explains how the author is making the situation dramatic. It doesn't explain how you can make something that constantly resets dramatic.

[Giggling Ghast]

True but that's been sidestepped by the fact he remembers everything so he could have been getting xp for all his adventures.

Memory is not tied to XP as far as I know.

[CJvR]

Well I was wondering what the bloodsplatters on the first cell was all about.

[Johnny Blade]

So... what, the Forgath that raided the Goblin warcamp with Minmax in that universe was just an NPC?

Uh...they're all NPCs? Seriously, these alternate realities have no players behind them, they're just stuff Herbert thought would be cool to include. Don't think too hard about it.


As for Psimax...it's kind of funny that this kind of character is introduced by holding a classic villain monologue right after an update poking fun at a fantasy cliché. Right now I am not sure whether I find this annoying (because it is a clichéd villain concept) or ingenious (because it makes sense and is pretty funny in the context of this being a gaming group).
I'm honestly rather tired of this character archetype though, so I'm afraid my interest in this dungeon crawl is dwindling even more.

Especially since I definitely have an issue with this whole situation. I mean, how did Psimax know destroying the counter would have any effect, and this one in particular?
If he didn't know it, why did he decide to break the rules of a game that spans multiple realities and takes place 'in' (sort of...I guess) the rather dangerous weapon of a god's servant when all he's got to go on was maybe a hunch that it could be helpful?



Just so this post isn't too negative though, I've got to say I like of like the portrayal of Forgath's player because it avoids most of the stupid tits = perfect roleplayer original and elaborate character background so wonderful praise her clichés that are all too common.

I mean, she seems to be the most reasonable of all the players we have encountered so far, but she's still just a, well, normal person who's playing for simple fun and down for stuff like ogre piss shenanigans, the helmet's engraving and quite some breaking of the 4th wall, even playing a cleric of the DM.
(Being female may or may not partly explain why she gets away with stuff like this, of course. Although Herbert seems to just take it in stride and respond in kind.)

So, basically, nicely done portrayal of a female player is what I'm saying.

[Weimann]

Thunt has always had a way with tone shifts and can certainly make dramatical twists. No deviation from that here; very heavy page.

I will have to bring this up, though, because it bothers me too much. Why would destroying the counter remove the memory wiping effect? It's not like time stops moving if you smash your watch. A counter measures reality, it doesn't dictate it.

Also, if the counter is the core of the magic enchantment on the maze, why did they put it in the one place where players can safely go?

And why did it not destroy the time-rewind effect? Only the mind-wipe is gone, and this is despite the counter showing explicitly the number of time rewinds so far. If anything, it should be that effect that is busted.

[Jimorian]

It's not so much that it affects it that bothers me, it's the fact that you'd think that by this point, particularly with all the evil versions with very little anger management, somebody would have seen a huge number and smashed the counter to bits just because, thus finding out the secret. Once you have memory, you can use a few instances to scout out the dungeon and vastly increase your chances at eventual success.

[Weimann]

Just so this post isn't too negative though, I've got to say I like of like the portrayal of Forgath's player because it avoids most of the stupid tits = perfect roleplayer original and elaborate character background so wonderful praise her clichés that are all too common.

I mean, she seems to be the most reasonable of all the players we have encountered so far, but she's still just a, well, normal person who's playing for simple fun and down for stuff like ogre piss shenanigans, the helmet's engraving and quite some breaking of the 4th wall, even playing a cleric of the DM.
(Being female may or may not partly explain why she gets away with stuff like this, of course. Although Herbert seems to just take it in stride and respond in kind.)

So, basically, nicely done portrayal of a female player is what I'm saying.

Hm, I really don't think it's a portrayal of a female player, it's a portrayal of a Dwarf Cleric. As I pointed out before, players are secondary in the comic, what matters are the characters. I'm counting the "your player is a girl" comment to be a throwaway gag that is not to be considered as anything but. I will certainly continue to see Forgath, and not Forgath-played-by-a-girl in the future as well.

[Giggling Ghast]

Johnny, your use of the term "cliché" seems to be synomous with "things I don't like."

As to how PsiMax understood how destroying the counter would have any effect, it's entirely possible that he blasted it upon first entering the Maze of Many. Perhaps it was an accident, or perhaps he had done so based on research he done prior to entering the dungeon. I do not know.

I will have to bring this up, though, because it bothers me too much. Why would destroying the counter remove the memory wiping effect? It's not like time stops moving if you smash your watch. A counter measures reality, it doesn't dictate it.

Your watch is a mundane item that merely tracks the passage of time as we choose to define it.

This is a magic counter in a dungeon that exists outside of time filled with varying incarnations of the same adventuring party pulled from across the multiverse.

If the act of destroying the counter turned them all into parrots, I would not be surprised.

It's not so much that it affects it that bothers me, it's the fact that you'd think that by this point, particularly with all the evil versions with very little anger management, somebody would have seen a huge number and smashed the counter to bits just because, thus finding out the secret. Once you have memory, you can use a few instances to scout out the dungeon and vastly increase your chances at eventual success.

Or perhaps destroying the counter is what doomed PsiMax. Perhaps the cumulative effect of these failures has driven him insane, which is why he now seeks oblivion. He wants to end the cycle.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't know psions very well... At what level do they get the ability to explode people's heads? And what are the freaky arms?

[Weimann]

It's not so much that it affects it that bothers me, it's the fact that you'd think that by this point, particularly with all the evil versions with very little anger management, somebody would have seen a huge number and smashed the counter to bits just because, thus finding out the secret. Once you have memory, you can use a few instances to scout out the dungeon and vastly increase your chances at eventual success.

Yeah, why hide it there of all places? Geez.

Another thing. Shouldn't Psinmax remember his own 817 deaths as well? After all, he is still here, so he must have lost all those times (possibly voluntarily) while info gathering?

[Weimann]

Johnny, your use of the term "cliché" seems to be synomous with "things I don't like."

As to how PsiMax understood how destroying the counter would have any effect, it's entirely possible that he blasted it upon first entering the Maze of Many. Perhaps it was an accident, or perhaps he had done so based on research he done prior to entering the dungeon. I do not know.



Your watch is a mundane item that merely tracks the passage of time as we choose to define it.

This is a magic counter in a dungeon that exists outside of time filled with varying incarnations of the same adventuring party pulled from across the multiverse.

If the act of destroying the counter turned them all into parrots, I would not be surprised.

Yeah but it doesn't even stop the time rewind. It stops the memory wipe. The time rewind is explicitly still in effect. It's not even thematic!

[Giggling Ghast]

The time rewind is necessary for the dungeon to function. The memory wipe is not.

[Johnny Blade]

I will certainly continue to see Forgath, and not Forgath-played-by-a-girl in the future as well.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it's not really a big deal, but the fact that there are players behind Minmax and Forgath does come up sometimes, so it's a part of the comic, minor as it may be.
And it's one I really like, mainly because, to be blunt, the prevalent portrayal of female roleplayers as at least so much better and more mature than their male counterparts, if not outright perfect, in gaming-related media pisses me off, so it's nice to see it avoided for once.

Johnny, your use of the term "cliché" seems to be synomous with "things I don't like.

So, you're saying that a character who ends up being a villain because he wants to forcibly end life/existence (sometimes emotions) to help people achieve release from it is original?
Or that there is no trend to portray female players as significantly more mature and better roleplayers than male ones?

As to how PsiMax understood how destroying the counter would have any effect, it's entirely possible that he blasted it upon first entering the Maze of Many. Perhaps it was an accident, or perhaps he had done so based on research he done prior to entering the dungeon. Perhaps this will be revealed in a later update.

All theoretically possible, but it simply strikes me at risky to break the rules of such a game just because it could have a beneficial effect, so I'm just going to discard the possibility that he sort of did it because it might possibly help after all
.
Also, the way he says that he destroyed the counter does not exactly make me think it was by accident.

As for research, that would not solve the issue either. This information must have come from somewhere. I mean, sure, Kin seems pretty knowledgeable about it, but that most likely originates from someone who got out of this competition, meaning somebody scrapped the thing before...based on what information again?

I also have to fully agree with everything Weimann and Jimor said about this. This makes less sense the more I think and read about it.

[John Cribati]

Another thing. Shouldn't Psinmax remember his own 817 deaths as well? After all, he is still here, so he must have lost all those times (possibly voluntarily) while info gathering?

He spent his time studying the Maze, not getting in on the action. He probably died, like 20 times.

[JonestheSpy]

Another thing. Shouldn't Psinmax remember his own 817 deaths as well? After all, he is still here, so he must have lost all those times (possibly voluntarily) while info gathering?

Why do you think he's so keen on obliterating everything? It's not like "Overwhelming Nihilism" is a Psion class feature.

[Giggling Ghast]

So, you're saying that a character who ends up being a villain because he wants to forcibly end life to help people achieve release from life is original?

Yeah, I can think of other villains that have similar motivations. But what of it? I can think of a lot of antagonists whose purpose for their villainry (personal power, monetary gain, to bring order to the universe, simple sadistic pleasure) were similar to that of a lot of other antagonists.

It is not a cliché because someone else did it before, Johnny. If that were the case, the entirety of creative endeavours over the last several millenia would be a cliché. I assure you, it's ALL been before.

Or that there is no trend to portray female players as significantly more mature and better roleplayers than male ones?

Oh, let's not start a tiresome debate about gender politics. I'd rather not.

[Johnny Blade]

He spent his time studying the Maze, not getting in on the action. He probably died, like 20 times.

Yeah, probably. He's bound to have ended up in the way of a powerful, probably evil group that'd rather be safe than sorry a couple of times, but it's not like he was looking to pick fights.

If the act of destroying the counter turned them all into parrots, I would not be surprised.

And here's another thing - why did it not do that? This is a rather sophisticated sword, what with hosting a paper chase with contestants from countless realities. How come it can't stop simple cheating? Or, actually, not even cheating, just someone deciding to refuse playing?

Those aren't cliches, Johnny. Those are tropes.

You know what a cliché is? It's a trope! A trope that is overdone. You may not agree that this qualifies, maybe, but that only means that we can argue about it, not that I simply call it a cliché because I don't like it.

Oh, let's not start a tiresome debate about gender politics. I'd rather not.

It's not about gender politics, it's about common character archetypes in media.
But if you'd rather drop this point I can understand that, because really now, it is incredibly common, so I don't see any possibility for you to back up your earlier accusation here.

[Occasional Sage]

OK, I can understand his plan, crazy as it is. But why kill Forgath and Kin each time? Seems to me they'd improve the success of each of his scouting runs.

It's not about gender politics, it's about common character archetypes in media.
But if you'd rather drop this point I can understand that, because really now, it is incredibly common, so I don't see any possibility for you to back up your earlier accusation here.

I see what you did there.

[Porthos]

OK, I can understand his plan, crazy as it is. But why kill Forgath and Kin each time? Seems to me they'd improve the success of each of his scouting runs.

Presumably they found out why he was doing his scouting runs and decided that they didn't want to become non-existant.

Actually, strike that. It seems that this is the first time he has "enlightened" them about that facet of the plan.

Hmmm.

Maybe he never could get them to scout instead of find the treasure? So he killed them as to not be a distraction whilst he mapped?

Or he's just psychoitc and we shouldn't try to figure out the whys and wherefores.

[Irbis]

I just realized soemthing:

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PsinMax killed Kin and Forgath for XP. He's probably a level higher than the rest of the MinMaxes in the maxe.

If he remembers everything, he might be far higher than that...

[Jimorian]

One thing we can surmise from this is that the various adventure parties DO interact instead of each running their own instances. Otherwise, it would just be a race for "our" party to finish their dungeon before Psimax completes his task in his.

[Vulkan]

No! I cannot accept this Minmax to exist!