Results 781 to 810 of 892
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2013-11-11, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2013-11-11, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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2013-11-11, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Another question.
Normally the UMR rules require two or more claw hits on the same target to trigger rend, and it explictly states rend can only occur once a round.
Reading the Eidolon version of rend it states that the only requirement to trigger rend is two claw hits on the same target and does not limit the amount of times rend can occure.
This is assuming the UMRs are considered the general rules, and the rend written for the Eidolon is the specific version. Also thinking that the difference is intentional, if not, why would that version of rend be completely written out rather than just referencing the existing UMR?
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2013-11-11, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2013-11-11 at 07:05 PM.
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2013-11-12, 12:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
This.
The UMR are also more up to date than the evo rules, including later errata/clarifications (for example the changed size restrictions for grab). I suppose the evo rules are basically copies of older UMR texts, sometimes missing additions and clarifications, such as rend being possible only 1/round. The evos' lack of updates or details can of course easily be confused with the "specific trumps general"-rule, but I think it's safe to assume that if the UMR lists the same ability as an evo, the UMR text is correct unless:
- the evo specifically says it differs from the UMR
- the evo was updated/errata-ed after the UMR was
So far, there are no evos where the above applies AFAIK. Hope that makes things easier in case anyone finds other potential conflicts between evos and the UMR.
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2013-11-12, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Excellent replies. Thank you all for helping to clarify this. My apologies if it has been covered elsewhere, as this is greatly appreciated.
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2014-02-13, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Hello everyone!
I'm new to Pathfinder and intend to join a party that has good offensive capability but lacks a tank, ergo this will be my role as a Summoner.
Rulebooks are limited to Core, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat.
Races must be either Human or Half-Elf.
Starting level is 8.
So far I've played around with a few ideas, but nothing really works due to the lack of evolution points. The Synthesist seems to be the best choice, even though he loses half his actions per round.
Are there any good builds you can recommend? Or am I better off, if I play a normal Summoner and use nategar05's Tank-dalon?
I would pick a Half-Elf for the extra Evolution Points and the immunity to sleep.
Half-Elf
Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Arcane Training, Dual Minded, Elf Blood
Favored Class: Summoner
Evolutions:
As a Half-Elf I get 30 instead of 26 evolution points until level 20.
Biped (claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs))
Bite = 1
Improved Natural Armor x2 = 2
Grab (Bite) = 2
Swallow Whole = 3
Large = 4
Huge = 6
Spell Resistance = 4
Immunity x4 (cold, fire, acid, electricity) = 8
= 30 points with no real offensive capabilities
That's the problem right there, he really is just a damage sponge, that occasionally eats enemies. I lack the experience to decide if this is a viable build, or if the Eidolon needs more Claws to deal damage (or Heads for more Bite+Grab+Swallow).
Does Constrict work with swallowed enemies?
Is Unnatural Aura(UM) worth the evolution point?
I could use the Extra Evolution feat a few times to get up to 34 evolution points, but I don't know if this is a waste.
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Natural Weapon) (or do I have to pick between Claws and Bite?)
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still (large/huge + reach = no one gets around you)
Extend Spell (for Buffs)
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2014-02-14, 04:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Welcome to the Playground, Korlash! I'm a rather new member myself.
Are you experienced with D&D 3.5 or are you mostly new to the D20 rules system? The reason I'm asking is because the summoner is known as a very complex class to build (and play), having lots of little fiddly details requiring careful attention. And in most groups and parties, I'd say there are unfortunately lots of mistakes easily made with this class also when played strictly according to the rules, such as the summoner unintentionally overshadowing the other PCs abilities and/or the player unintentionally hogging too much time and spotlight in combat. Regardless of your experience, I definitely think you should give it a try though, just be aware that you'll probably need to think about stuff like the above more than with other classes.
Which brings us to a more important question: what do you know of the other PCs in the party (classes, build types etc)?
Rulebooks are limited to Core, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat.
Races must be either Human or Half-Elf.
Starting level is 8.
So far I've played around with a few ideas, but nothing really works due to the lack of evolution points. The Synthesist seems to be the best choice, even though he loses half his actions per round.
If you really want to focus on the eidolon, the half-elf with the wild caller racial archetype is the way to go, notably offering more evolution points than any other option may. They gain a slightly weaker, less versatile summon monster ability and lose access to some evos though (but none crucial for a tank eidolon).
Are there any good builds you can recommend? Or am I better off, if I play a normal Summoner and use nategar05's Tank-dalon?
Also, check out this guide for a different take on the summoner, suitable for tanking.
I would pick a Half-Elf for the extra Evolution Points and the immunity to sleep.
My comments in red:
Evolutions:
As a Half-Elf I get 30 instead of 26 evolution points until level 20. Or 35 with max number of Extra Evolution feats, or a total max of 40 as a Wild Caller. More than enough to have points to spare for just going bananaz!
Biped (claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs))
Bite = 1
Improved Natural Armor x2 = 2 I'd probably max this to x5, it's so cheap.
Grab (Bite) = 2
Swallow Whole = 3 Be wary of this, most enemies won't have any difficulty whatsoever to cut themselves free and ruin this ability, the eidolon's sensitive belly having really poor AC and HP. It's also expensive and limited to smaller opponents. First consider Rapid Grappler to quickly Tie Up opponents.
Large = 4
Huge = 6
Spell Resistance = 4
Immunity x4 (cold, fire, acid, electricity) = 8 Way too costly in comparison to how often these typically come into play, IMO. And spell resistance plus perhaps an energy resistance spell often do the job. Better spent on reach, flight, skill bonuses, Aspect and other more fun stuff.
= 30 points with no real offensive capabilities
That's the problem right there, he really is just a damage sponge, that occasionally eats enemies. I lack the experience to decide if this is a viable build, or if the Eidolon needs more Claws to deal damage (or Heads for more Bite+Grab+Swallow).
Does Constrict work with swallowed enemies?
Is Unnatural Aura(UM) worth the evolution point?
I could use the Extra Evolution feat a few times to get up to 34 evolution points, but I don't know if this is a waste.
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Natural Weapon) (or do I have to pick between Claws and Bite?)
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still (large/huge + reach = no one gets around you)
Extend Spell (for Buffs)
Here's a quick tank-ish melee control biped build (30 pts):
{table=head]{colsp=4}UPHODONTROLLER
Evolution|EP|HD|Feat
Bite |1|1| Combat Reflexes
Reach (bite) |1|3| Improved Grapple
Perception Bonus |1|5| Weapon Focus (bite)
Impr. Armor x5 |5|7| Greater Grapple
Huge |10|9| Rapid Grappler
Spell Resistance |4|11| Snatch
Blindsense |3|13| Lunge
DR 10/alignment |5|15| Power Attack
[/table]
Improved Armor, SR and DR grants considerable staying power, while huge size, reach and lunge allows for three extremely accurate hard grabbing attacks per turn in an area of up to 65x65 ft. Notice especially the Snatch feat, replacing the need for the Grab evo and granting additional fun stuff, such as flinging foes around!Last edited by upho; 2014-02-19 at 03:24 AM.
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2014-02-14, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Personally I save the spell Evolution Surge for things like Immunities, Web, and a few others. Web evolution is pretty darned useful, but requires a point sink in one of the climbing evolutions.
Swallow Whole is basically something you do to rob someone of actions. They can only do a certain amount of damage to you each round, and you keep that creature Swallow-locked. It's not bad, but it's not great either. Web is better because it eats a standard action at minimum, and the DC is high enough to be non-trivial for quite a while.~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
"In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
"Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."
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2014-02-14, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Why Biped? Large Quadruped with single bite attack, Reach, Multiattack, Haste gets three bites with 10ft range on Full Attack or Pounce. Add combat reflexes and you'll get a lot of AoO from people trying to get around the Eidolon.
Some pretty inexpensive evolutions add free combat maneuvers to bite attacks (I'm a fan of trip).
Sadly, I'm going only from theory and not playing, as another party member already took Summoner. But, the action economy seems too important to give up. Having a Summoner able to cast Evolution Surge for any situations and then have the Eidolon go at it is very important.
A great part of a Summoner, imho, is they are the only ones who can use a Lesser Rod of Dazing on Wall of Fire. Really locks down opponents and makes it harder for them to get past the Eidolon.Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan
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2014-02-14, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2014-02-14 at 01:48 PM.
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2014-02-14, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
To the left;
1) adding Reach evolution will only help one attack; so, single claw.
2) Damage Reduction affects all those attacks.
3) Not getting a full attack leads to one weak claw instead of one stronger jaw.
I'd argue that Combat Reflexes (AoO is a single attack, even if multiple times) benefits the stronger single attack Bite more than the weaker single claw.
No arguing about Rend, though.
I simply think (possibly incorrectly) that a melee damage Eidolon would best be Biped or quad-claw, but a Tanker should be quad-bite.Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan
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2014-02-14, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
A large biped without any other evolutions has a reach of 10ft, adding the reach evolution isn't necessary. Arms can also benefit from the item "Longarm bracers" which 3/day as a swift action increase the reach with attacks using your arms by 5ft until the start of your next turn.
A biped also has good will saves, while quads have good reflex. Personally I'd prefer good will saves as a failed reflex save typically just results in damage while a failed will save could see your pet dismissed, paralyzed, blinded(glitterdust) or otherwise instantly disabled.Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2014-02-14 at 03:03 PM.
Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2014-02-14, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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- Stockholm, Sweden
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Web is great during lower levels, I agree. The reason for not taking Swallow is because Tie Up offers a more certain lock down (virtually impossible to get out of, barring perhaps a very unusual spelltrigger) without the risk of taking damage and without having to spend EPs.
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2014-02-14, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Web to immobilize, Rapid Grapple to grapple-spam-bind target.
Swallow Whole at that point would just be hilarious, but still not recommended.
Also, Grapple is limited by two factors. High CMD's and Freedom of Movement. Web is only limited by Freedom of Movement, higher chance of being effective. You can Web something and still attack something else if I'm not mistaken. Just not as part of a Pounce.~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
"In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
"Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."
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2014-02-14, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
The main reason for biped is simple: reach is king for this type of eidolon. Keep in mind that for a BFC type of eidolon damage isn't very important, rather it's something nice to have for those few opponents impossible to grab. Multiple attacks and pounce is also mostly nice to have, but not necessary as they won't affect the number of AoOs that can be made. (Although when the eidolon can be made huge and qualifies for Snatch, it is quite a bonus to have two additional grabbing attacks, especially when fighting numerous smaller and weaker opponents that can be grabbed individually despite the -10 penalty.)
Roughly speaking, you could say that this eidolon's grapple CMB (and CMD to some extent) is the equivalent of a striker type eidolon's damage, and having numerous grapple checks/round is the equivalent of having numerous attacks.
Some pretty inexpensive evolutions add free combat maneuvers to bite attacks (I'm a fan of trip).
A great part of a Summoner, imho, is they are the only ones who can use a Lesser Rod of Dazing on Wall of Fire. Really locks down opponents and makes it harder for them to get past the Eidolon.
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2014-02-14, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Yes, but consider that eidolons don't come without EPs, and what can be done with those EPs. For a single point, the quad might gain reach with its bite, and the biped gains a bite (which in most cases already have reach 10+ because of Enlarge Person and/or Large evo.) Add an additional EP and the biped already has a significant advantage when it comes to tanking/BFC. As levels and EPs are gained, the impact of this typically grows, just as the difference between having and not having pounce typically becomes increasingly noticeable for striker type eidolons. So all things considered, for this type of eidolon, sacrificing one additional EP for a bite attack is a silly low price to pay for the advantages gained from going with biped instead of quad. Especially when also taking into account that the claws can also gain grab in higher levels.
No arguing about Rend, though.
I simply think (possibly incorrectly) that a melee damage Eidolon would best be Biped or quad-claw, but a Tanker should be quad-bite.
Also:Last edited by upho; 2014-02-14 at 05:43 PM.
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2014-02-19, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Thank you, everyone. Especially upho.
We had a session for playtesting, turns out the Synthesist won't work in this group.
1. Replies to Upho's post
2. Reasons the Synthesist won't work
3. Reasons the Wild Caller won't work
4. Current ideas
1. Replies to upho's post
Are you experienced with D&D 3.5 or are you mostly new to the D20 rules system?
Since our DM never had a Summoner in his groups he allowed me to test the Synthesist/other builds and if it doesn't do the job I can still switch to another sub- or archetype or reskill if it was too weak or if it was outshining the rest of the party.
Update: After the playtest we agreed that I will play a normal Summoner, unless I can make the Wild Caller work.
what do you know of the other PCs in the party (classes, build types etc)?
(...)I think the Master Summoner*would actually be the most successful in a tank role.
(Swallow Whole) Be wary of this, most enemies won't have any difficulty whatsoever to cut themselves free and ruin this ability, the eidolon's sensitive belly having really poor AC and HP. It's also expensive and limited to smaller opponents. First consider Rapid Grappler to quickly Tie Up opponents.
(...) don't expect the highly situational sleep immunity to be one of them [great racial trait ] unless the DM has said so
2. Problems
The Synthesist is not yet implemented in Hero Lab (minor problem)
We use Wounds & Vigor instead of HP. This leads to some confusion regarding the Eidolon's tankiness. It's not clear if I should
a) just add the Eidolon's and Summoners Wounds and Vigor (overpowered)
b) use the highest (underpowered?)
c) use the Summoner's wounds for him and the fused form; AND use their own Vigor each (seems more balanced, but still weak. The Eidolon can still die in one hit, leaving the summoner naked for the rest of the turn.) I fear the Synthesist can't be properly balanced for Wounds & Vigor.
Other minor problems due to my specific group.
Solution:
Play a normal Summoner :)
3. Reasons the Wild Caller won't work
A Wild Caller has too many restrictions for his Eidolon. It cannot take: immunity (from Evolution Surge, Lesser), damage reduction, dimension door and spell resistance
4. Current ideas
Half-Elf:
Key: Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Elf Blood
Alternatives: Dual-Minded (replaces Adaptability), Multitalented (I don't see myself multiclassing, but Arcane Training seems worse than 1 skill point each level)
Ability scores rolled: 13 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 15 Int, 15 Wis, (17 Cha +2 Racial) = 19 Cha
+1 unallocated for reaching level 4 (increase Cha to 20?)
Feats:
Must have Eschew Materials (DM's orders for any caster)
I'm still working on this part, because all the work I had done was for the Synthesist :)
I guess upho's suggest build would work very well with a few minor changes. I'll definitly test your Molest-todon build.
Summoner Spells:
(Lv0x6 1x5 2x4 3x2)
0: Message, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, Open/Close, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Grease, Rejuvinate Eidolon Lesser, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil, (next: Compel Hostility)
2: Haste, Barkskin, Summon Eidolon, Evolution Surge Lesser
3: Ivisibility Greater, Heroism, (next: Dimension Door / Fire Shield)Last edited by _Korlash_; 2014-02-19 at 08:32 PM.
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2014-02-19, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
While reading up on the summoner I figured that, next to dismiss and banishment, sleep would be one of the spells that would send my power armor right to the scrap yard.
The "Eidolon Anchoring Harness" item will burn uses of your summon monster ability to stay active while your unconscious. The feat "Resilient Eidolon" will keep your Eidolon around for 1/round per summoner level after you've fallen unconscious.Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.
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2014-02-21, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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- Stockholm, Sweden
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Really great you did a play test, I think. Hopefully it gave you and the DM as well as the rest of your group a much better understanding of how this rather different class actually plays in your party and which builds that fit. Likewise, I think your DM has made a good call by allowing you to change builds if the one you start with should turn out problematic. Such a cooperative and allowing mindset goes a long way to ensure the game is fun for everyone. Give him/her my regards and tell him/her to keep up the good job!
The party consists of a Magus, a Bard and an Inquisitor, all good at dealing damage, pretty bad at taking a hit. The Bard buffs, the Inquisitor is ranged, but can go into melee, the Magus is pretty much a Volcano.
But you're all 'half-casters' (can cast up to spell level 6) and no less than three arcane ones, meaning you need to plan your spell progressions a bit more carefully together in order to avoid redundancies and lost overall versatility. As you may well know already, this is particularly important for you and the bard, since both your spells lists focuses on buffing and has quite a bit of overlap, but also with regards to the inquisitor (at least for lower level spells). See below for my suggestions on spells.
And yes, I'd say this party would definitely benefit the most from your summoner focusing on the front line (= tank/BFC eidolon/summons).
I believe the Master Summoner would take too much time to manage in combat and the other players might get bored. Also this one seems too prone to errors.
I considered Swallow Whole to be a save or die against casters (see erik542's „Nom-beast“ on page one), but you (and the others) make a good point and I droped the idea.
While reading up on the summoner I figured that, next to dismiss and banishment, sleep would be one of the spells that would send my power armor right to the scrap yard.
2. Problems
The Synthesist is not yet implemented in Hero Lab (minor problem)
We use Wounds & Vigor instead of HP. This leads to some confusion regarding the Eidolon's tankiness. It's not clear if I should
a) just add the Eidolon's and Summoners Wounds and Vigor (overpowered)
b) use the highest (underpowered?)
c) use the Summoner's wounds for him and the fused form; AND use their own Vigor each (seems more balanced, but still weak. The Eidolon can still die in one hit, leaving the summoner naked for the rest of the turn.) I fear the Synthesist can't be properly balanced for Wounds & Vigor.
Other minor problems due to my specific group.
I think a solution more in line with the intent of the synth rules would be to simply treat the synth as 'a creature inside another creature', meaning that the fused synth uses the eidolon's VP and WP (becoming staggered when below the eidolon's wound threshold etc), and the summoner's VP and WP if/when the eidolon's WPs are lost (and the eidolon is dismissed). In other words, an enemy would have to reduce the eidolon's VP and WP to 0 before it can affect the summoner's. Of course, the summoner can use the Fused Link feature to sacrifice his own VP if the eidolon's VP would be reduced to 0, as well as his WP if those are threatened. In effect, this is similar to your alternative a) and very much as the original synth rules (where Fused Link enables the fused synth to transform his own regular HP into the eidolon's THP).
Solution:
Play a normal Summoner :)
3. Reasons the Wild Caller won't work
A Wild Caller has too many restrictions for his Eidolon. It cannot take: immunity (from Evolution Surge, Lesser), damage reduction, dimension door and spell resistance
4. Current ideas
Half-Elf:
Key: Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, Elf Blood
Alternatives: Dual-Minded (replaces Adaptability), Multitalented (I don't see myself multiclassing, but Arcane Training seems worse than 1 skill point each level)
Regarding Adaptability/Dual-Minded, there's one thing that can make Adaptability very much worth keeping, and that's the Eldritch Heritage feat which has Skill Focus as a prerequisite. If choosing the Arcane Bloodline, you'll get both a familiar providing you with a nice bonus (such as an awesome +4 to initiative) and your eidolon with company, and an extra use/day of any spell you know.
Ability scores rolled: 13 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 15 Int, 15 Wis, (17 Cha +2 Racial) = 19 Cha
+1 unallocated for reaching level 4 (increase Cha to 20?)
Feats:
Must have Eschew Materials (DM's orders for any caster)
I'm still working on this part, because all the work I had done was for the Synthesist :)
I guess upho's suggest build would work very well with a few minor changes. I'll definitly test your Molest-todon build.
Summoner Spells:
(Lv0x6 1x5 2x4 3x2)
0: Message, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, Open/Close, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Grease, Rejuvinate Eidolon Lesser, Feather Fall, Protection from Evil, (next: Compel Hostility)
2: Haste, Barkskin, Summon Eidolon, Evolution Surge Lesser
3: Ivisibility Greater, Heroism, (next: Dimension Door / Fire Shield)Last edited by upho; 2014-02-21 at 03:03 AM.
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2014-02-21, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
First of all: Hero Lab had an update since Sunday and now supports a buggy Synthesist.
Hi,
I will give him your regards.
The play test really helped, since we now know, that there are a few problems with the rules for your suggested build (addressed below) and that the Synthesist itself isn't a good choice for this group.
That's a really interesting and cool party. The first thing that strikes me is that your party will consist entirely of rather powerful versatile classes, but none of the most powerful, meaning you're probably a lot less likely to run into serious balance problems than a more typical 'cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard'-type of party is in later levels. This also significantly reduces the risk of your summoner unintentionally stealing the show, especially since you also start at level 8 and the summoner (or rather the eidolon) has a greater tendency to walk over other front line classes' toes during early levels IME.
We are not supposed to be gods and the world should still pose a threat at any character level.
But you're all 'half-casters' (can cast up to spell level 6) and no less than three arcane ones, meaning you need to plan your spell progressions a bit more carefully together in order to avoid redundancies and lost overall versatility. As you may well know already, this is particularly important for you and the bard, since both your spells lists focuses on buffing and has quite a bit of overlap, but also with regards to the inquisitor (at least for lower level spells). See below for my suggestions on spells.
The Bard and I don't have the same buffs – the Bard focuses on group buffs while I use single target buffs.
The Mage mostly has damage dealing spells and, except for Mage Hand, entirely different support spells.
Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Even the vanilla summoner can run into these issues when going 'all in' with both summoned monsters and the eidolon in combat simultaneously. If/when your summoner needs to do this, my suggestion is that you ask the other players to control the summoned monsters. And that you're well prepared with printed easy-to-read stats for the monsters you're most likely to summon (this is usually no more than one or two for each level of the spell).
As soon as there are too many summons everyone gets to use one or more. Same method as above, as long as the summons aren't swarm animals (swarm intelligence: the majority wins the decision, if its a tie the first to act wins).
Telepathy or a common language however, is another matter and I will ask the group if they want to play the summons.
From a pure RAW perspective, I'd say alternative c) is the most correct (as THP = VP), also meaning the eidolon would be dismissed the moment those extra VPs are lost.
Furthermore the interaction with Fused Link is unclear, I assume that the Summoner can only transfer VP, not WP. I guess Fused Link will be houseruled like this.
Hmm... Looking more closely at the wild caller, I think you may be correct that a tankolon summoner loses too many good evos to make the extra EPs of this archetype worthwhile. Especially since you have the half-elf extra EPs anyway.
You can always get the +1 HP or skill point instead of another favored class bonus, Multitalented only allows you to treat two classes as favored instead of one. It doesn't mean you get both the extra EP favored class bonus as well as +1 HP or skill point when you gain summoner levels.
Regarding Adaptability/Dual-Minded, there's one thing that can make Adaptability very much worth keeping, and that's the Eldritch Heritage feat which has Skill Focus as a prerequisite. If choosing the Arcane Bloodline, you'll get both a familiar providing you with a nice bonus (such as an awesome +4 to initiative) and your eidolon with company, and an extra use/day of any spell you know.
I assume Supernatural Abilities, Extraordinary Abilities can't be shared, but Spell-Like Abilities can.
Arcane and Abyssal both look nice.
Are you sure the eidolon gets a familiar as well?
Yes, keep pumping that Cha! Don't forget the second increase at level 8. And gosh, your ability scores are through the roof! I think these numbers would feel kinda wasted on the synth, really.
I'd check with the inquisitor and bard regarding Protection from Evil (potential redundancy, I would also suggest getting a cheap party wand of it), changing it to Shield on your list.
Check with the bard regarding especially Haste and Heroism - you get Haste as a level 2 spell (earlier than any other class, but the bard has more spells/day), and Heroism is sort of the bard class' signature spell (I'd change it into Dimension Door).
Haste seems to good to cut. Since the target of the spell doesn't age rapidly anymore you can spam it :)
Now for the grappling Problem:
As I understand your suggestion is based on the idea to get lots of AoOs combined with Reach and Grab to prevent enemies to walk around you while moving yourself onto their squares. Once you grapple some one you wait for more AoOs to grapple another one.
The problem is this:Free Actions Can't Be Taken When It's Not Your TurnYour foe provokes an attack of opportunity from you. You take the attack of opportunity, make the touch attack roll to grab, don't provoke an attack of opportunity yourself because of your feat Improved Grapple (PH 95-6), succeeed on the touch attack roll to grab, and then stop because you can't take the free action that's required to make the opposed grapple check.The foe has been grabbed (and released because you couldn't start the grapple), not grappled, and has taken no damage, so according to the RAW, the foe continues casting his spell without penalty.ou can get all the way up to making an opposed grapple check versus an opponent who provokes an attack of opportunity by attempting a grapple, but you can't make the opposed grapple check--and thefrefore won't be able to do more than grab and release him--unless it's your turn or you have an off-turn free action available from another source; it's still a free action to make the opposed grapple check to get the hold.
(Yes, it's D&D 3.5e, but I don't see any relevant changes in the rules)
Or did I just misunderstand your build and it intends to grapple as many opponents as possible on your own turn, making the Combat Reflexes obsolete?Last edited by _Korlash_; 2014-02-21 at 04:04 PM.
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2014-02-22, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
im new to this thread and haven't read threw everything but i have gone a few pages in. but i noticed that the half-elf's +1/4 to eidolon evo pool is an ability that you take every lvl. therefore it is an ability that stacks. thus increasing the half-elf summoner power lvl by quite a bit.
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2014-02-22, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
srry going back and rereading Saph's definition of the half elf's class extra explains it much better then the pathfinder app does. even though it should specify that it is every 4 levels that you get an extra point not 1/4 of your eidolons evolution pool. it leaves a lot of room for interpretation of the wording.
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2014-02-22, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
It's a fairly standard way they list things like that, but you are far from the first to be confused.
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2014-02-24, 01:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Sorry, the 'keep the eidolon company' was a bit misleading: the Eldritch Heritage feat would only be worth it for the summoner (the eidolon would have to waste a precious feat slot on Skill Focus which is awful, especially for an eidolon). Only the creature with the Eldritch Heritage feat (the summoner) gains its benefits (the familiar, among other stuff). Abyssal would've been an OK choice for the eidolon if it had better access to the feat, but it's a rather poor choice for the summoner unless you intend to build him as a melee partner to your eidolon.
Note that except for feats explicitly affecting the eidolon (such as Extra Evolution), the eidolon doesn't get any of the benefits from the summoner's feats, ever. And neither does the summoner get any benefits from the eidolon's feats. Outside of the Link and Share Spells abilities etc, the summoner and the eidolon are technically two different creatures just as separate as the summoner and his inquisitor ally.
The Bard doesn't have Heroism, but I'll ask him if he intends to get it.
Haste seems to good to cut. Since the target of the spell doesn't age rapidly anymore you can spam it :)
Now for the grappling Problem:
As I understand your suggestion is based on the idea to get lots of AoOs combined with Reach and Grab to prevent enemies to walk around you while moving yourself onto their squares. Once you grapple some one you wait for more AoOs to grapple another one.
The problem is this:
(https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...of-opportunity)
(Yes, it's D&D 3.5e, but I don't see any relevant changes in the rules)
Or did I just misunderstand your build and it intends to grapple as many opponents as possible on your own turn, making the Combat Reflexes obsolete?
- The grab ability allows the eidolon to make a regular attack and deal the normal damage just as any other attack, but a hit also allows the eidolon to make a grapple check against the hit target.
- Using the grab ability does not provoke an AoO (regardless of the whether the eidolon has the Improved Grapple feat or not).
- Grab is not a separate touch attack, but an addition to a regular natural attack.
- Grapple checks are not opposed checks, instead the attacker makes a CMB check against the defender's CMD (just as if rolling to hit with a regular melee attack against the target's AC).
- If the eidolon is allowed to make an attack with the natural weapon having the grab ability, it is also allowed to make the grapple check if the attack hits, regardless of when the attack occurs (during the eidolon's turn or someone else's).
- The initiator of a grapple can end the grapple as a free action at any time.
So to summarize, my example eidolon would make an AoO against a provoking enemy within the (rather large) area it threatens, make an attack roll to hit vs. the enemy's AC, and if successful, first deal damage normally and then also make a grapple check. If the check succeeds and the grappled enemy isn't adjacent to the eidolon already (it usually won't be), the enemy is immediately moved to any unoccupied adjacent space (this will happen a lot). If a second enemy provokes an AoO, the eidolon can end the current grapple with the first enemy and repeat the process with the second enemy. And as many additional enemies as the eidolon's Dex mod allows for and there's sufficient room for adjacent to the eidolon. So the eidolon kinda works as a 'black hole' that pulls enemies close and keep them in bad positions away from squishy allies.
Have a look at the PF grapple rules. They're slightly less confusing than in 3.5, but unfortunately still contain gaps and fuzzy wording (two hands and weird multi-limbed creatures, anyone?) and can create some odd and obviously unintended effects in quite a few situations.
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2014-02-24, 06:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
I agree with you except for one point:
You don't get any free action outside of your own turn. All you get are immediate actions which can't be used to release a grapple.
The ruling, that you don't get these free actions can be derived from:
Swift Actions
[...] You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. [...]
Immediate Actions
[...]However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
This would still allow you to grapple as an AoO as long as you weren't in a grapple already.
Furthermore the grappled condition states:
Grappled
[...] Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity. [...]Last edited by _Korlash_; 2014-02-24 at 06:32 AM.
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2014-02-24, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Poor editing on the SRD. Another page for grapple does not say that, and instead says
Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
Likewise, a free hand that has reach (eidolon claw with reach evolution) should allow an AoO according to the language I quoted. But I agree that your language trumps it; however, it's not on the same page. For shame.Avatar of Vlad Taltos and Loiosh by Bradakhan
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2014-02-24, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Yes, the general rule is that you cannot take free action outside of your own turn, but there are several exceptions to this (the one most commonly used is to speak). Releasing a grapple is, AFAICT, one such exception, the rules explicitly saying 'at any time'.
I would however understand a DM who rules otherwise, since this is an advantage primarily to a big creature with the potential to spam grabbing AoOs, a specialization an eidolon typically can excel in more than virtually any other creature, including PCs highly optimized towards doing that very thing. And in most campaigns, I believe the eidolon is very rarely the player controlled creature in most need of any boons, whatever they may be.
But even if the eidolon can only make one grabbing AoO per turn, combat reflexes and reach optimization are still well worth the investments for this type of eidolon IME. For example, in earlier levels the trip evo can be put to very good use while saving the single grabbing AoO for when/if it's most effective/needed. With Multiattack at level 9, the claws can also be changed into pincers for two additional boosted grab attacks. Starting at level 14, the Snatch feat adds the grab ability to both bite and claw attacks, giving the eidolon at least three grabbing attacks. And since the huge (or larger) size, 38+ strength and several grapple bonuses results in a ridiculously high CMB, some smaller opponents can be grabbed even with the -20 penalty that allows the eidolon to only use the limb making the attack to hold the opponent and avoid the grappled condition. And besides, starting the turn with the enemy already grappled means the eidolon needs to spend fewer actions to tie it up, and just the threat of a grabbing AoO will also often be enough to make enemies fight less effectively. So regardless of how your group decides to handle the free action to release a grapple, I think you'll get good mileage out of opting your eidolon's AoOs.Last edited by upho; 2014-02-24 at 05:04 PM.
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2014-03-04, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Hey Saph, just did a little mini guide for the Synth Summoner, mind if I link your guide to it? You covered most of the basics, my guide is just extraneous to the archetype itself.
My Pathfinder class guides
Alchemist
Barbarian
Warpriest
Investigator (Guide Addendum)
Gunslinger
Kineticist
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2014-03-05, 03:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner
Amazing guide Saph!
I am sorry if this has already been discussed, but there doesn't seem to be a search function, and there are *alot* of pages to sift through.
I just bought Hero Lab, and am in the process of importing my character when I discovered an issue. Either I have been unintentionally cheating, or I found an issue with Hero Lab.
My eidolon is a quadruped with the following evolutions
*Bite
*Limbs (Legs) (2)
Claws (2)
Improved Damage - Claws
When I attempt to add the Claws evolution twice Hero Lab freaks out and tells me "You must have a pair of arms to place these claws on".
Per the APG pg60 "This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once. This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution"
I thought I was fine, per my understanding of the rules. Two pairs of legs, two pairs of claws. Am I misunderstanding the rule or is Hero Lab just being buggy?