[D&D 4E] Shield bashing?

[Reverent-One]

So can you wield something without using it?

If we're being that picky about wording, definitely. Just because you can carry something doesn't mean one can or has to use it. And even without splitting hairs about wording, isn't that why some implement users carry around a second implement in their off-hand that may not have a good enchantment bonus but has a nice ability? So they can apply the property while using the better enhancement.

[Mando Knight]

1) Arena fighters treat all weapons they are NOT proficient with as improvised weapons.

This is the line I missed, which is the important one.

Also, Reverent-One, you have to be careful with that statement. The implement's powers and properties are generally why it's picked, but mostly only ones that aren't triggered off of attacks are used for off-hand implements, as you still need to pick the implement you use (and thus its bonuses and properties, etc.) for each individual attack.

[MeeposFire]

If we're being that picky about wording, definitely. Just because you can carry something doesn't mean one can or has to use it. And even without splitting hairs about wording, isn't that why some implement users carry around a second implement in their off-hand that may not have a good enchantment bonus but has a nice ability? So they can apply the property while using the better enhancement.

The implement thing only works if the power does not say "when you make an attack with this implement". A lot of properties use that now. And it is not just implements that do that weapons do too. Heck I like using rhythm blade spiked shields in my off hand for that particular reason. Still even if you are wielding a weapon for a property you are certainly using it.

[Reverent-One]

The implement thing only works if the power does not say "when you make an attack with this implement". A lot of properties use that now. And it is not just implements that do that weapons do too. Heck I like using rhythm blade spiked shields in my off hand for that particular reason. Still even if you are wielding a weapon for a property you are certainly using it.

However, a Snapping Testudo doesn't need to make use of properties of each shield, so they're not using both shields in that sense either.

[MeeposFire]

However, a Snapping Testudo doesn't need to make use of properties of each shield, so they're not using both shields in that sense either.

You are using it it to get the benefits of the paragon path.

[Reverent-One]

You are using it it to get the benefits of the paragon path.

...So because your character is a member of a certain Paragon path, a metagame construct, he is not capable of carrying two shields, but one that is not a member of said metagame construct can? This is rivaling "Healing by drowning" in ridiculousness.

[MeeposFire]

...So because your character is a member of a certain Paragon path, a metagame construct, he is not capable of carrying two shields, but one that is not a member of said metagame construct can? This is rivaling "Healing by drowning" in ridiculousness.

This is a strict RAW argument of course it is dumb. I said as much before it started. Somebody posted about the ridiculousness of this path and I mentioned that this is one reason why people think the path is ridiculous (because they forgot to add something in or that they did not realize how broad of a statement they made in the spiked shield description). I of course would allow the path to work as intended as I believe that little blurb about two shields is to let us know that you normally get no extra benefit from wielding two shields.

Any class can carry two shields but you cannot wield them by RAW since wielding would be using those shields. They both give you a shield bonus for instance, they just don't stack with each other.

[Reverent-One]

I of course would allow the path to work as intended as I believe that little blurb about two shields is to let us know that you normally get no extra benefit from wielding two shields.

Given that's exactly what the blurb tells us, that's not much of a leap.

Any class can carry two shields but you cannot wield them by RAW since wielding would be using those shields. They both give you a shield bonus for instance, they just don't stack with each other.

That requires wielding to be different from carrying, and there's nothing saying that's the case.

[MeeposFire]

Given that's exactly what the blurb tells us, that's not much of a leap.




That requires wielding to be different from carrying, and there's nothing saying that's the case.

There is a difference between carrying and wielding in the game it came up in swordmage discussions. In order for the swordmage to get his AC bonus he needs to wield a blade. Some players tried to reason that since you can hold a greatsword in one hand that it was enough to get the better AC bonus (for having nothing in one hand). It does not work however since you actually need to wield a weapon to get the bonus and you cannot wield a greatsword in one hand (without an epic destiny anyway).

You can hold or carry around your extra shield and that is alright even by RAW. Once you equip that shield and wielding it you are now using the shield. It now gives you a shield bonus and if you are already wielding a shield they would not stack, but you are certainly using the item. Now the rules say you can't do that so it is a no go from a RAW standpoint.

Now if you please can we just let this thread continue. This is just an intellectual curiosity that we both would agree that no sane DM would ever have a problem with (as in they would allow snapping testudo to work as intended) so there is no real problem.

[Reverent-One]

There is a difference between carrying and wielding in the game it came up in swordmage discussions. In order for the swordmage to get his AC bonus he needs to wield a blade. Some players tried to reason that since you can hold a greatsword in one hand that it was enough to get the better AC bonus (for having nothing in one hand). It does not work however since you actually need to wield a weapon to get the bonus and you cannot wield a greatsword in one hand (without an epic destiny anyway).

Fair enough.

You can hold or carry around your extra shield and that is alright even by RAW. Once you equip that shield and wielding it you are now using the shield. It now gives you a shield bonus and if you are already wielding a shield they would not stack, but you are certainly using the item. Now the rules say you can't do that so it is a no go from a RAW standpoint.

Except since the second shield doesn't give you any bonus, you're not actually using it. It's simply sitting on one arm.

[MeeposFire]

Fair enough.



Except since the second shield doesn't give you any bonus, you're not actually using it. It's simply sitting on one arm.

It is giving you a bonus. It just does not stack. That is different.

It is similar to me using the brawler guard feat (which gives you a +1 shield bonus for using a weapon and keeping one hand free) with a spiked shield enchanted with the shielding blade enchantment (gives the wielder a +1 shield bonus to AC) and nothing in the other hand. In this case both the feat, the enchantment, and the shield are giving me a shield bonus but none of them stack. This of course would be a stupid thing to do but it is legal to do.

If you equip two shields they both will provide a shield bonus (as that is what happens when you equip a shield) they just won't stack.

[Reverent-One]

It is giving you a bonus. It just does not stack. That is different.

It is similar to me using the brawler guard feat (which gives you a +1 shield bonus for using a weapon and keeping one hand free) with a spiked shield enchanted with the shielding blade enchantment (gives the wielder a +1 shield bonus to AC) and nothing in the other hand. In this case both the feat, the enchantment, and the shield are giving me a shield bonus but none of them stack. This of course would be a stupid thing to do but it is legal to do.

If you equip two shields they both will provide a shield bonus (as that is what happens when you equip a shield) they just won't stack.

Which means you're not using the second shield and it's bonus.

[MeeposFire]

Which means you're not using the second shield and it's bonus.

No you are using it and getting a bonus but it just isn't doing you any good.

Like my shielded blade spiked shield. The enchantment is giving me a +1 shield bonus (which I am using) it just isn't doing me any good since it overlaps with the shield bonus from the shield itself.

[Reverent-One]

No you are using it and getting a bonus but it just isn't doing you any good.

Like my shielded blade spiked shield. The enchantment is giving me a +1 shield bonus (which I am using) it just isn't doing me any good since it overlaps with the shield bonus from the shield itself.

But if it's having no effect on you, how are you using it? This train of thought brings up another possibility with regards to the blurb in AV, perhaps that section was merely being descriptive and repeating the rules that A) you can't have more than one arms slot magic item and B) shield bonus' don't stack, not actually providing any new rules.

[Jaidu]

If you have a spiked shield rhythm blade in one hand, a heavy shield in the other, and the Snapping Testudo paragon path, would you be getting a +4 shield bonus? +2 from the heavy shield, +1 from the paragon path, +1 from the rhythm blade. As far as I can tell, you should, because the rhythm blade specifically increases your shield bonus by one instead of just giving a +1 shield bonus, but the character builder was showing this as a +3. Am I missing something or is the CB?

[MeeposFire]

But if it's having no effect on you, how are you using it? This train of thought brings up another possibility with regards to the blurb in AV, perhaps that section was merely being descriptive and repeating the rules that A) you can't have more than one arms slot magic item and B) shield bonus' don't stack, not actually providing any new rules.

If you are wielding a shield you are using it, even if it provides you with no noticeable benefit.

If you recall, your second statement is what I said I think they were trying to say. As in rules as intended. Unfortunately they wrote a statement that is more global and far reaching. They should have been more specific to avoid stupid situations like this. This is also why nobody plays a true 100% RAW D&D game. It is obvious they intended this to work and it should be allowed to work regardless of the RAW.

[Reverent-One]

If you are wielding a shield you are using it, even if it provides you with no noticeable benefit.

Again, with no effect on your character, how is it in use? What are you basing the idea that it is in use on?

If you recall, your second statement is what I said I think they were trying to say. As in rules as intended. Unfortunately they wrote a statement that is more global and far reaching. They should have been more specific to avoid stupid situations like this. This is also why nobody plays a true 100% RAW D&D game. It is obvious they intended this to work and it should be allowed to work regardless of the RAW.

And I'm saying that there is still no restriction on wielding two shields by RAW, merely in using them.

[Mando Knight]

If you have a spiked shield rhythm blade in one hand, a heavy shield in the other, and the Snapping Testudo paragon path, would you be getting a +4 shield bonus? +2 from the heavy shield, +1 from the paragon path, +1 from the rhythm blade. As far as I can tell, you should, because the rhythm blade specifically increases your shield bonus by one instead of just giving a +1 shield bonus, but the character builder was showing this as a +3. Am I missing something or is the CB?

A Rhythm Blade only increases your shield bonus if held in the off-hand. Is the Spiked Shield set as your off-hand item or your main hand item? (The CB might not allow you to use a Heavy Shield as a main-hand item...)

[MeeposFire]

Again, with no effect on your character, how is it in use? What are you basing the idea that it is in use on?



And I'm saying that there is still no restriction on wielding two shields by RAW, merely in using them.

The simplest answer I can give you is that just because it has no noticeable benefit does not mean that you are not using the item in question. If I have a level 4 character with a +1 weapon and I am using the inherent bonus rules I am using the bonus from both sources but they do not stack. Yes that makes my magical weapon give me no benefit but I am still using it (in fact the character builder shows this as it gives you both bonuses and then says the inherent bonus does not stack with the enhancement bonus). If you cannot understand the difference between using an item and having it give you no benefit, and not using an item at all then I cannot help you with the rules.

[Reverent-One]

The simplest answer I can give you is that just because it has no noticeable benefit does not mean that you are not using the item in question. If I have a level 4 character with a +1 weapon and I am using the inherent bonus rules I am using the bonus from both sources but they do not stack. Yes that makes my magical weapon give me no benefit but I am still using it (in fact the character builder shows this as it gives you both bonuses and then says the inherent bonus does not stack with the enhancement bonus). If you cannot understand the difference between using an item and having it give you no benefit, and not using an item at all then I cannot help you with the rules.

If you can show where it the rules it explains what "using" an item entails and that it includes when the item has no actual effect due to stacking rules, go ahead. If the rules don't say that anywhere, then the idea that an item is still being "used" when it has no effect is your personal interpertation, not RAW.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just out of curiosity, where is this Snapping Tetsudo located at?

[Reverent-One]

Just out of curiosity, where is this Snapping Tetsudo located at?

Dragon 385.

[Mando Knight]

Just out of curiosity, where is this Snapping Tetsudo located at?

Dragon #385.

[Jaidu]

A Rhythm Blade only increases your shield bonus if held in the off-hand. Is the Spiked Shield set as your off-hand item or your main hand item? (The CB might not allow you to use a Heavy Shield as a main-hand item...)

It does let you use the heavy shield as a main hand item, and applies the +2 normally if I do so. I am tempted to chalk it up as a bug in the CB, considering that it's a rather strange combination.