The Fleshforge Legacy Mk. II [3.5 Campaign Setting, PEACH!]

[MammonAzrael]

Though, usually religions have a central figure to unite them. I'm not sure how an Anti-X religion would work. Perhaps they idolize the first elven leader to declare war on the shapers and eventually elevate him to a status not unlike 'prophet'?

Actually, I kinda like the idea of hero worship as a method of creating divinities. Maybe each race has their own 'legendary hero' who they sort of deify.

I'm getting flashes of Kelsier from Mistborn here. And that can only be a good thing.

[Lord_Gareth]

Or we could go with the earlier explanation, of the gods always having been there, outside the protective shell of the inner planes, and unable to affect true change on the world below due to the shaper's presence and interference.

I dunno, that idea rubs me the wrong way somehow. I mean, you have a world where everything seems so fresh. New. Unsure of itself, uncertain of how to act now that the whip no longer falls against its back. Bringing in old divinities that somehow got defeated by the Shapers seems...counter to your themes.

[Sydonai]

Valenar Elves already practice ancestor worship, so there is a precedent.
edit:the Valenar are from the Eberron setting

[Admiral Squish]

I dunno, that idea rubs me the wrong way somehow. I mean, you have a world where everything seems so fresh. New. Unsure of itself, uncertain of how to act now that the whip no longer falls against its back. Bringing in old divinities that somehow got defeated by the Shapers seems...counter to your themes.

That is true, I didn't think of it in that light. But then, dieties in my mind are supposed to be these eternal, unchanging things, embodiments of forces and aspects. 'Young god' strikes me as a contradiction the very core of things.

However, perhaps a mixture of the two would be the best spread? Old gods from the outside, seeking to capitalize on the 'faith power' freed up by the power vacuum of the shaper's departure, and new gods arising from within, taking the forms of heroes, martyrs, and champions. Perhaps I could even re-use the elemental lords from my Viridia setting.

I kinda have this image that the outer gods are alignment-based, with eight of them, each championing their particular alignment. Then six elemental gods, the positive, negative, earth, air, water and fire. Then the inner gods are champions, concepts, nature spirits, ancestor amalgamations, and the like. All the outer gods have been fighting amongst each other forever, and are locked so evenly that the act of trying to intervene on the material would have spelled a tipping of the proverbial scales. The elemental gods have more or less had an accord, but when the shapers left, fire got greedy and sent his armies into Tryor to increase his own power, and the rest sorta joined up.

[Lord_Gareth]

See, I find the idea of new, young gods fascinating in this setting for one powerful reason: the dynamic is totally changed.

Think about it. The races of Tryor have bowed before one set of masters before and hated it. Now these new beings, powerful and inexperienced, come into existence craving recognition, barely knowing their own mind, let alone their own strength? It puts them into a position where they must be the one to understand mortals, where they have to beg and cajole. It makes things a little more...even, as it were. Do you get what I mean?

[Admiral Squish]

See, I find the idea of new, young gods fascinating in this setting for one powerful reason: the dynamic is totally changed.

Think about it. The races of Tryor have bowed before one set of masters before and hated it. Now these new beings, powerful and inexperienced, come into existence craving recognition, barely knowing their own mind, let alone their own strength? It puts them into a position where they must be the one to understand mortals, where they have to beg and cajole. It makes things a little more...even, as it were. Do you get what I mean?

Hmm... Yeah, I suppose I could see how that would be appealing. It just wasn't the mental image of gods I had. Still, I'm open to the idea. Partially why I suggested the mixed solution. To satisfy those like you, who wish to see young gods, and those like me, who are more accustomed to the huge, powerful deities.

Each would have their own advantages. The outer gods are extremely powerful, but distant, only rarely interacting with tryor in any direct way. Whereas the inner gods would be significantly less powerful, but still diefic, but also enjoy a much closer, relatable relationship between themselves and their worshipers.

[MammonAzrael]

Well, why couldn't the younger gods be just as powerful and mighty as any elders that may or may not exist? Nothing says that their power has to be cased on age or the number of worshipers they have. And having young new gods that still don't quite understand the limits of their own power? Sounds intriguing.

What if it wasn't the gods that held the power, but rather their portfolios? The Shapers were undisturbed for so long partly because there were no beings that controlled the deific portfolios, as they lay dormant and unknown. As Tryor was a world untouched by magic, there was initially no beings to hold those portfolios, and no one that lived there would ever think of it. When the Shapers came, they wouldn't inherit/discover the portfolios for numerous reasons, from confidence in their own power to coming from a place where good-hood doesn't work that way. But when the Shapers were overthrown, the races of Tryor could understand and believe in magic and more, and either gods were birthed from the portfolios, or mortals found them and took them up and embodied them, or a combination, or something.

I'm getting a bit of a Dark Sun feel from the level of detachment Tryor has from the rest of the planes...is that wrong?

[Admiral Squish]

Well, why couldn't the younger gods be just as powerful and mighty as any elders that may or may not exist? Nothing says that their power has to be cased on age or the number of worshipers they have. And having young new gods that still don't quite understand the limits of their own power? Sounds intriguing.

What if it wasn't the gods that held the power, but rather their portfolios? The Shapers were undisturbed for so long partly because there were no beings that controlled the deific portfolios, as they lay dormant and unknown. As Tryor was a world untouched by magic, there was initially no beings to hold those portfolios, and no one that lived there would ever think of it. When the Shapers came, they wouldn't inherit/discover the portfolios for numerous reasons, from confidence in their own power to coming from a place where good-hood doesn't work that way. But when the Shapers were overthrown, the races of Tryor could understand and believe in magic and more, and either gods were birthed from the portfolios, or mortals found them and took them up and embodied them, or a combination, or something.

I'm getting a bit of a Dark Sun feel from the level of detachment Tryor has from the rest of the planes...is that wrong?

Another interesting way to look at it. I think the reason that the young gods would be weaker is because they don't really know how to use their newfound powers properly in the first place. Like, for example, where a young god would kill somebody by stopping their heart, an older god might know all it takes is a little nudge in the brain and they go down.

Hmm. So, say, a deity like Boccob would be born directly from the portfolio of 'magic', whereas A Heironious-like diety would arise by a mortal of some sort taking on the mantle of 'honor' or 'valor'. I dunno. I like the idea, but I'm not entirely sold.

As for a dark sun feel, I've honestly never read dark sun material, so I can't really comment on any similarities. The outer planes are still accessible, it just takes two applications of 'plane shift' to get there.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok then, I guess I'm confused as to where exactly the "shell" surrounding Tryor is. Is it between the material plane and all other planes? Does it enclose Tryor and the elemental planes, with the outer planes on the outside?

As for the deities...I wouldn't say that is more powerful, just knowledgeable. Why can't the new gods be just as mighty, with the same divine ranks as ancient gods? Their methods could be crude and unrefined, since they don't have the same experience, but the raw power is the same.

As for the gods birthing from portfolios, I could just as easily see it the other way, where a god was born from the portfolios of Honor and Valor (fundamental ideas that the denizens of Tryor should have no issue believing in regardless of a god), while some curious and powerful mortal follows Karsus and becomes the god of magic.


How many gods to you want for Tryor? A huge mix, like with Grewhawk and the Forgotten Realms? Or a more limited number, like on Eberron? Do you want them to be completely separate, or a singular pantheon, or perhaps split pantheons?

Do you even need gods in Tryor? You haven't read it, but Dark Sun is a place with no gods, period. Divine casters get their power from powerful elementals and concepts. It can work.

[Admiral Squish]

Ok then, I guess I'm confused as to where exactly the "shell" surrounding Tryor is. Is it between the material plane and all other planes? Does it enclose Tryor and the elemental planes, with the outer planes on the outside?

As for the deities...I wouldn't say that is more powerful, just knowledgeable. Why can't the new gods be just as mighty, with the same divine ranks as ancient gods? Their methods could be crude and unrefined, since they don't have the same experience, but the raw power is the same.

As for the gods birthing from portfolios, I could just as easily see it the other way, where a god was born from the portfolios of Honor and Valor (fundamental ideas that the denizens of Tryor should have no issue believing in regardless of a god), while some curious and powerful mortal follows Karsus and becomes the god of magic.


How many gods to you want for Tryor? A huge mix, like with Grewhawk and the Forgotten Realms? Or a more limited number, like on Eberron? Do you want them to be completely separate, or a singular pantheon, or perhaps split pantheons?

Do you even need gods in Tryor? You haven't read it, but Dark Sun is a place with no gods, period. Divine casters get their power from powerful elementals and concepts. It can work.

The 'shell' USED to exist at the borders of Tryor, between it and the inner planes. When it was cracked by the shapers, the 'shell' pretty much fell apart. Outside the 'shell', you find the elemental planes, as well as the positive and negative energy planes. These planes form a layer around tryor, preventing direct travel between tryor and the outer planes. The outer planes exist beyond that.

Well, isn't technique a part of power? Even if two warriors have the same stats, the higher-level one will win because he's got more experience about how to swing the blade just so. Yes, they would have the same raw power, but without the ability to use it properly, that power does nothing, and if used incorrectly, it can take much more power to accomplish the same tasks.

I was just making a random example, but that's basically what I was trying to say. I like this.


How many gods... that's a rather tough question, isn't it? That's what I'm trying to figure out here. I'm hunting opinions and suggestions. There are literally infinite ways to handle religion in Tryor, including the option to have it not exist at all.

[Admiral Squish]

Oh: Also, I was hoping people would be so kind as to review the Illithids and the forge beasts.

I've had an idea for dromites and thri-keen which I think will be very interesting, though as it stands, it's going to need a lot of work. The general idea is making the dromite castes actually be significantly diverse. The dromite castes would each fill a specific non-combat role, like crafting, or labor, or research. Then, when it comes down to a war scenario, the dromite queen can pass out royal jelly and rapidly convert sizable portions of her hive into more battle-oriented forms.

[MammonAzrael]

Well, isn't technique a part of power? Even if two warriors have the same stats, the higher-level one will win because he's got more experience about how to swing the blade just so. Yes, they would have the same raw power, but without the ability to use it properly, that power does nothing, and if used incorrectly, it can take much more power to accomplish the same tasks.

I don't think that technique is a part of power. For instance, the "old gods" and the "new gods" could both be Divine Rank 20. They would have an equal amount of power. However, the skill and precision with which that power is wielded is what would change. The older gods would be far more dangerous not because they are more powerful, but rather they are far more experienced in wielding that power.

Though I suppose that experience is linked to levels in DnD, that can get kinda murky.

How many gods... that's a rather tough question, isn't it? That's what I'm trying to figure out here. I'm hunting opinions and suggestions. There are literally infinite ways to handle religion in Tryor, including the option to have it not exist at all.

Well...what are the options here? Do you have any initial vision?

• While I could see no gods at all (I mean, its an easy reason why the Shapers could have their fun unimpeded), I feel like Dark Sun has already done this to an excellent degree.
• I could see a few gods that are so detached from Tryor that they just didn't care. They didn't need worshipers because whatever they had in their home planes was satisfactory.
• New gods as I previously suggested.
• The Shapers could have created gods on accident, an unintended byproduct of some other experiment, and they were shuffled off and ignored as failures. This would allow for gods of each race.
• Emerging religions based on faith-inspiring individuals. New-found freedom could cause religions based on resistance figures, their new illithid overlords, or crazy people that offer an unbelievable hope of a better tomorrow. Seems a good breeding ground for false prophets and pyramid-scheme religion.

This also raises up the question of what the outer planes look like. Will you be using the standard DnD cosmology, or will you be making your own? Will it have one plane for each alignment, something more like 4E's planes floating in the astral sea for each god, or something else entirely? Any ideas or thoughts we can build on yet?

[Admiral Squish]

There will be some strong resemblances to D&D cosmology, but there will be a great deal altered.

Overall, I think I like the original idea I suggested. With eight incredibly powerful, but somewhat distant gods, each the embodiment of one point of the alignment chart. (CG, CN, CE, NE, LE, LN, LG, NG). They're all exceptionally powerful, but they have been unable to interfere with Tryor because the shapers were powerful enough to be a threat, and they're all already pretty busy, what with constantly waging war on one-another. Then there's the elemental lords, who are the kings of their respective elemental planes. Fire, water, earth, air, positive and negative. Then there are the inner gods. Some are young gods freshly formed, others are champions, tyrants, or martyrs raised to godhood by their people. Old spirits of nature rising to reclaim their lost followers, now given form by the magic flooding the world, and amalgamated ancestor spirits rising to divinity. Some worship the memory of the shapers, and some cults revere the mind flayers. Overall, a good spread of divinities that would allow any cleric plenty of choices.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok.

• Why is there no True Neutral deity? If nothing else I would think it could be a Jergal-like figure that presides over the end of everything, a death-god.
• So the Outer Planes are at war with one another. If they were too busy/concerned with their wars to care about the Shapers, then I take it the various realms are all more or less embroiled in constant battles and warfare, making it an exceptionally dangerous place?
• Sounds like the Elemental Planes are at far more peace with one another...yes?
• Do souls ascend to the outer planes when they die?
• The new inner Gods...I'm getting the feeling that they'll all be no more powerful than lesser gods (divine rank 10). That sound right?
• With the outer gods busy fighting each other, would they have time to make themselves known on Tryor or try to start a religion, especially is such a short time span? You have all these gods out there now, but how many religions do you want?

I'm tossing all the questions out not because I expect that you have it all developed, but rather as things to think about.

[Admiral Squish]

Ok.

• Why is there no True Neutral deity? If nothing else I would think it could be a Jergal-like figure that presides over the end of everything, a death-god.
• So the Outer Planes are at war with one another. If they were too busy/concerned with their wars to care about the Shapers, then I take it the various realms are all more or less embroiled in constant battles and warfare, making it an exceptionally dangerous place?
• Sounds like the Elemental Planes are at far more peace with one another...yes?
• Do souls ascend to the outer planes when they die?
• The new inner Gods...I'm getting the feeling that they'll all be no more powerful than lesser gods (divine rank 10). That sound right?
• With the outer gods busy fighting each other, would they have time to make themselves known on Tryor or try to start a religion, especially is such a short time span? You have all these gods out there now, but how many religions do you want?

I'm tossing all the questions out not because I expect that you have it all developed, but rather as things to think about.

Hmm. To be honest, a death deity would probably be an embodiment, which would fit better as an inner deity.

Well, the battle would be most constant at the edges of each plane, where one plane meets another. As you head toward the core of the planes, the less embattled they get. So, the capital of each plane would be relatively safe from the inter-planar battles (though, I would hesitate to call the fortress of the CE plane 'safe'.)

Not really. They're not nearly as set against one-another as the outer planes, though. They generally don't fight directly, though they do tend to compete for similar goals.

That depends on the deity. Those who worship the gods of the outer planes do go there. Those who worship the inner gods or elemental gods, however, tend to have different afterlives. Some of the inner gods absorb the sould of their followers into themselves. Others draft their souls into ghostly armies. Some of them get reincarnated into nature as plants or animals.

I'm thinking lesser-intermediate would be the right level.

They weren't too busy to contact Tryor, doing so was just too dangerous with the shapers there. While the shapers wouldn't be able to truly destroy the outer gods, they would be able to muster enough of an army to put a dent in the forces of the deity, and even this much of an imbalance would have the god's forces overrun by his enemies.

[Sydonai]

A Divine Power's strength come from their faithful, and especially the petitioners, the dead spirits of their faithful. The Shapers, as Epic creatures, could theoretically threaten the petitioners, something that even Demons and Devils find difficult to do.

[Lord_Gareth]

A Divine Power's strength come from their faithful, and especially the petitioners, the dead spirits of their faithful. The Shapers, as Epic creatures, could theoretically threaten the petitioners, something that even Demons and Devils find difficult to do.

Dear gods please don't use petitioners. I want to commit heinous violence on whatever moron at WotC thought of that crap.

[Sydonai]

I'm fairly certain that petitioners started showing up back when TSR was in charge.

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, so, I just took a look at petitioners, and I'm not actually sure what they're supposed to actually do. What's the deal there?

[Lord_Gareth]

Okay, so, I just took a look at petitioners, and I'm not actually sure what they're supposed to actually do. What's the deal there?

1. Die.
2. Lose all hit dice and class features. Become Petitioner.
3. Sprint towards your afterlife and pray you are not devoured en-route.

[Sydonai]

Petitioners have one of four fates ahead of them if they "survive".
1.Become a part of their deity
2.Become an full-fledged Outsider
3.Become a part of the plane itself
4.Become the fiendish equivalent of gasoline

While they still exist as individuals they provide faith/prayers to their patron, the same as when they were alive.

edit: god needs prayers badly

[Admiral Squish]

That seems silly. Yeah, we won't be using petitioners here.

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, anyways. I'm in need of design ideas, names, and concepts for outer and inner gods. The elemental gods are sorta self-explanatory. Really big, really powerful elementals. Though I don't know if there's positive and negative elementals...

The only two outer gods I know where to start with are the LN and CN gods. LN is a big, really ornate construct, or possibly many constructs in one, sorta like voltron. Could also be a collective deity of some sort. CN is far reams stuff. Always, always changing, never viewed the same way twice.

For inner gods, the ideas are more nebulous. Some sort of nature spirit god, hero gods, ancestor gods, magic gods... There's not even definitive categories to work in.

Also: Hivelings are going to have metamorphoses. Each worker caste is going to metamorphose into a warrior caste. I'm debating the the warrior castes should be acquired templates, whether I should give worker castes a metamorphosis racial ability... How do you all think I should handle it?

[Lord_Gareth]

Well, let's see if any of these inspire you, name-wise:

Mirali Kall AKA The Lightbringer, The Truthbearer. Portfolios: Light, truth, cruelty, punishment.

Jivalia AKA The Three That Are One, the Weird Sisters. Portfolios: Madness, Art, Invention, Love.

[Sydonai]

That seems silly. Yeah, we won't be using petitioners here.

No Afterlife=no reason for commoners to worship random deity#1
Especially since it seems that the gods didn't(or couldn't) help when they were really needed.

[Admiral Squish]

Well, let's see if any of these inspire you, name-wise:

Mirali Kall AKA The Lightbringer, The Truthbearer. Portfolios: Light, truth, cruelty, punishment.

Jivalia AKA The Three That Are One, the Weird Sisters. Portfolios: Madness, Art, Invention, Love.

Well, the first guy's interesting, but relatively standard fare. It could be interesting to subvert him, though...

As for the three-that-are-one, I dunno. I think they're interesting, but they're definitely RL stuff. I'd prefer not crossing into that, mostly 'cause my brother's a big mythology buff and he'll have my head if I mess with the myth.

No Afterlife=no reason for commoners to worship random deity#1
Especially since it seems that the gods didn't(or couldn't) help when they were really needed.

Nobody said anything about there being no afterlife. In fact, we covered that there would be many possible afterlives. I just don't like the petitioner system.

[MammonAzrael]

No Afterlife=no reason for commoners to worship random deity#1
Especially since it seems that the gods didn't(or couldn't) help when they were really needed.

There is afterlife for a deities worshipers. Admiral Squish already covered that.

As for deity ideas, I think you need to establish what you want from them, first.

The outer gods are clearly antagonistic towards each other. How are the relations between similarly aligned gods (like NG and CG)? It sounds like they would be completely separate deities, but would they have any established religions? Clearly they wouldn't be worshiped as a pantheon. Are there any notes or themes you want hit? Will there only be one deity of each alignment, an incarnation of each alignment, or will there be multiples?

It sounds like the inner gods will be the "unique" characters, the ones of mixing and matching. Is there a list of divine portfolios? Are there any themes or archetypes you want here, any limited number of gods? Would you like them as a single pantheon, or any pantheons? A balanced assortment of alignments?

Also, here is the petitioner system if you're curious.

[Admiral Squish]

There is afterlife for a deities worshipers. Admiral Squish already covered that.

As for deity ideas, I think you need to establish what you want from them, first.

The outer gods are clearly antagonistic towards each other. How are the relations between similarly aligned gods (like NG and CG)? It sounds like they would be completely separate deities, but would they have any established religions? Clearly they wouldn't be worshiped as a pantheon. Are there any notes or themes you want hit? Will there only be one deity of each alignment, an incarnation of each alignment, or will there be multiples?

It sounds like the inner gods will be the "unique" characters, the ones of mixing and matching. Is there a list of divine portfolios? Are there any themes or archetypes you want here, any limited number of gods? Would you like them as a single pantheon, or any pantheons? A balanced assortment of alignments?

Also, here is the petitioner system if you're curious.

Hmmm. I think the relations with similarly-aligned gods would still be relatively tenuous, probably outright antagonistic among the evil alignments, which would help balance the Evil Advantage and explain why evil hasn't already won. Sorta like the blood war, but somewhat less so, since everyone's doing it. Evil is just doing it harder.

Each deity would have their own religious following. worshiping them as a pantheon just wouldn't work. I was thinking, among the outer gods at least, the vicious competition would have killed off the weaker gods, leaving only the eight strongest, each one an incarnation of their individual alignment.

That's true. I generally don't want the inner gods to be smaller versions of the outer gods. They should feel significantly different. There is not a limited number of gods, and I haven't drawn up a list of portfolios. Any number of pantehons/non-panethonic dieties. There may even be several separate pantheons among the inner gods. As for alignments... I sorta think that the world shouldn't be as black-and-white as a lot of traditional settings depict, and the dieties should reflect that. Good isn't just everything above the midpoint, and evil isn't everything south of that. Something more like 25% good, 50% neutral, and 25% evil.

[Sydonai]

"Petitioner" is just the term for a dead soul that is under a Power's patronage, the system is in place so Powers don't just ignore their worshippers when they die(In Toril at least, and it looks like Krynn has a similar set-up, while dead people in Eberron are just screwed). The template on the other hand is WOTC's heavy-handed way of saying "LOL You can't do stuff if your dead LOL", ignoring the fact that they have made Petitioners that had class abilities. Read "Prince of Lies" for a look at how petitioners should be handled, read the template for a look at how dumb WOTC could be.

[Lord_Gareth]

"Petitioner" is just the term for a dead soul that is under a Power's patronage, the system is in place so Powers don't just ignore their worshippers when they die(In Toril at least, and it looks like Krynn has a similar set-up, while dead people in Eberron are just screwed). The template on the other hand is WOTC's heavy-handed way of saying "LOL You can't do stuff if your dead LOL", ignoring the fact that they have made Petitioners that had class abilities. Read "Prince of Lies" for a look at how petitioners should be handled, read the template for a look at how dumb WOTC could be.

That's only true in FR, actualy. All other worlds, the gods can more or less flip their worshippers the bird. You worship gods in D&D becasue you either think they have good ideas or because you're trying not to get OMGSMOTE.